Loyola 72, Indiana 67 (the aftermath)

Tom Crean rids himself of his tie

Indiana missed eight free throws in the second half and a furious rally fell short, as the Greyhounds (6-5) came into Assembly Hall and won 72-67.

The Hoosiers (5-6) had a chance to take a four-point lead, but Jeremiah Rivers missed two free throws with 2:03 left in the game. Rivers then fouled Brett Harvey on a 3-pointer and Harvey’s second four-point play of the day (the other came courtesy of Rivers, too) put Loyola ahead 69-67.

The teams then traded unsuccessful possessions before Rivers ended up driving, drawing a foul and heading to the line again. He missed both.

Harvey, who held the ball for at least 10 seconds, was finally fouled and went to the line. He led the nation in free throw shooting last year. He hit both shots in this game.

Here’s the final stat packet, if you are interested.

We’re now waiting for Tom Crean to arrive to discuss the game.

Here’s Loyola coach Jimmy Patsos’ post-game press conference. His message? Tom Crean’s a good man and a good coach who is well on his way to rebuilding the Hoosiers.

Tom Crean, meanwhile, thinks his team will take valuable lessons from the loss.

Maurice Creek, Indiana’s leading scorer, thought at times he was selfish. At other times, he was too passive.

Brett Harvey talks about his four-point play and the meaning of the win for Loyola

Christian Watford discusses Indiana’s ugly start

Jeremiah Rivers discusses his tough times at the free throw line.

74 comments

  1. To quote Axl Rose:

    “All we need is just a little patience”

    I ask the Lord to grant me patience and give it to me right now!

  2. In lieu of patience more juniors and seniors would be most welcome. Even if only for the B10 season.

  3. well tonights loss was disheartening to say the least but here is what give me hope.. last year we had the heart to comeback but lacked the talent.. this year we have the most of the talent but its still raw talent.. next year it will be more refined talent that wont have allowed this to happen in the first place..

  4. This is just a simple and honest question. How many years are you going to give Crean before you start to hold him accountable for results?

  5. I’m still on board. I’ll give him at least 2 more years. If he was a football coach he’d be good for the next 20 years.

  6. No doubt Crean has a while to go in his grace period, however there is a consistent sloppiness that is unsettling…that’s a discipline issue that starts at least close to the top.

    I don’t want to be a Rivers-hater, but I’m not convinced that’s who I want to have the ball towards the end of a tight game…3 of 9 free throws, missed lay up. V. Jones seems to be the most intelligent and steady QB in crunch time…

  7. Yes Stevealford, but those three are averaging 54% of the points, 46% of the rebounds, and 62% of the assists.

    Give Tom Crean 3 upperclassman leaders and he’ll have a top 25 team too. Alford didnt start out with a team of academic failures and drug users that needed to be sent away either. He got to start with JR GIDDENS 1st round draft pick.

    Don’t give me eric gordon BS either. He would have left even if Sampson didnt “resign”

  8. Most of what I could think about during the game was JPat and his wife sitting there. I hope she’ll say yes the next time you ask her to a game. What’d she think?

  9. I only post here occasionally, but read regularly and I normally like reading the comments as well as the blog posts themselves. May I suggest that we should collectively give Korman his Santa wish and ignore ‘stevealford’? It as if he has an algorithm that always makes his first comment some type of unsubstantiated slander against Crean. There is honest criticism that we can and should discuss of our current coach, but this isn’t constructive. He’s not here to debate, he’s here to preach and convert. We had 3 decent comments before he came in an hijacked the thread.

    No need for banning, just ignore him when he doesn’t have anything substantive to say.

  10. stevealford,

    I think it’s a completely legitimate question to ask when will Tom Crean be held accountable.

    After watching the last few minutes of the game there appeared to be some missteps that could be attributed to coaching.

    From a coaching philosphy standpoint should Rivers be the one who the offense should run through in the final minutes of the game? Did the coach rotate the correct players in on key inbounds plays where ball security was crucial, and was their a breakdown in clock management during the last 37 seconds of the game?

    Here’s the catch though. We have to remember IU made a miraculous comeback from 24 down and had a chance to go up by 4 with two minutes to go. They are still a young team that is going through some growing pains. The team is still one and 1/2 seasons from when it was completely gutted.

    This puts us as fans and the media covering Crean in a precarious spot. Crean is still technically in the honeymoon phase. His body of work isn’t complete and it’s hard to track and evaluate his work at IU because of a limited sample. I will say that there will come a time where the “we learned some valuable lessons” card becomes stale. Personally, it would be nice to see Crean admit to some coaching mistakes at the end of this game.

    As time passes and this honeymoon phase ends we will most likely start seeing some stories that question Creans coaching techniques and philosophy (Hutch would be the first in my mind to start this conversation). Is it working?, what should Crean be doing, etc.?

    Until now we just have to sit and wait.

    It’s a hard pill to swallow but I hope that the end result for IU basketball and Tom Crean is worth the wait.

    Best,
    PB

  11. Korman, anybody, please tell me why Elston is getting completely screwed by Crean in terms of playing time. Play Elston the same amount of minutes as Watford and he will do as good if not better than Watford. Elston should transfer if this keeps up, he is three times the talent of Pritchard.

  12. Here’s another question..

    Can we really attribute free throw shooting and missed layups to coaching?

    Seriously…free throws are a personal issue. You can’t really coach free throws. Nor can you coach making a layup right under the basket. Those are the sorts of things any competent basketball player should be able to do, no?

    On the other hand, the decision to play Dumes is a coaching issue. The decision to clap after a horrible play is a coaching issue.

    My only beef with Crean is that it seems sometimes he’s too encouraging after a bad play, when instead he should be ripping into a few of our players. Thoughts?

  13. Andy,

    We can certainly ask Crean about Elston’s playing time. As we’ve mentioned a few times, Crean usually hedges at talking very specifically about substitutions and minutes. He mentioned last night (it’s weird typing that because I haven’t gone to sleep) that he made a few lineup changes at half time. He was then asked a follow up about those changes. The discussion that ensued was not long or in-depth.

    I agree with PB that it will soon be time to really analyze how Crean coaches. We’re not privy to practice, but there are ways to find out how he runs them (former players, high school coaches who attend, etc.) It’s also time for us to really start charting plays and having some long film sessions. That will be our best chance for trying to figure out what Crean is having his team do.

    It’s still such an interesting situation, because the youth excuse remains quite valid. The exchange between stevealford and Dougy was illuminating in a lot of ways, but I still think it misses the point a bit. New Mexico’s senior and one of its juniors have spent four and three years in the program, respectively (the other junior is a JUCO transfer). I don’t think Crean will feel totally comfortable until he has something similar. He used the term “hand-me-down” last night, and that tells you where he’s coming from; he needs older brothers who for the young guys to look up to. He hasn’t had them yet. Last year Kyle Taber and Brett Finkelmeier were the only players with any ties to an Indiana team that was any good, and they were bit players.

    There’s no question this is an interesting debate, and one that we as journalists have in the newsroom frequently. As a columnist it has been difficult to balance the obvious fact that Indiana started basically from scratch with the just as plain-to-see fact that basketball can be a pretty simple game in which the more athletic and bigger team playing at home should have a distinct advantage.

    These debates certainly help us understand how you see things. Thanks for the discussion.

  14. There is no doubt who should play more minutes on offense in my mind, but from being a coach of young men for many years, your best offense players are not always your best on defense. Kids growing up in Indiana know how to shoot the ball from grade school up but getting them to commit to team basketball and defense it the hard part. Until kids understand that defense is the key to winning you will have ups and downs like IU has now. I see Coach as a defensive coach who will pull guys from the line up who are offensively better because of defensive and ball handling errors. The fans then wonder why because we most often judge players by their offense numbers. The truth is that every coach wants his offensive stars to be his defensive stars but it can be painful to get the young kids to buy in to the hard work that great defense requires. Most fans want to see their
    favorite players on the court most of the time and that will happen depending on their learning curve and the coaches abilities to teach. For me it is to early to tell if the kids will learn
    what it takes to win or have a chance to win in all their games. It is also to early to know if our coaches can teach them to be the winners we all want. Some have said to be patient with the team and coaches. I prefer to look for wisdom in the players and coaches to make the right choices during and at the end of games. In this game we had none.

  15. Rivers is the best post up player IU has and about the only one strong enough to create and release a shot inside. The problem is he cannot shoot free throws. Between JR and TP I don’t know who is worse at FTs. Thank god Pritchard was diving for loose balls last night. That was the only thing keeping him in the lineup.

    Crean needs better inbounds plays than the middle school ones they use now. Also, IU sets a pick on a pick ‘n roll… but where is the roll, and when it is there where is the pass to the roller? Right now the only one capable of doing that is Rivers. Let he and Creek or Hulls run that.

    If Creek can fire away like he does why doesn’t IU set screens for him or have him running playing like MD-Loy did for Harvey last night. It seems like IU is above running an effective offense.

    I don’t care if our guys are 6’9″ or 6’0″ but let’s play the guys that are going to go after the ball one way or the other and stop throwing the ball away. Our basic skills for basketball are very lacking.

  16. I don’t know about anybody else, but I only got frustrated one time last night. It was when Daniel Moore and Tijan were in the game at the same time.

    I know Crean was trying to spark a rally with both of those “energy guys”, but then we are playing 3 on 5 on the offensive end. I believe that Loyola stretched the lead out significantly there.

  17. Crean had the option to recruit 1-2 JuCo players to help last year and this year but he chose not to do so. that would have taken away his, “woe is me we’re so young” card.

    Crean is no different than dozens of other “modern” coaches. As long as they have more talent than the other team they’ll win. It’s easier for them to “recruit” a team than to “coach” a team.

    But let’s not be too harsh on Tom. Afterall you can only expect so much for $2,300,000 a year.

  18. Dougy,
    so what you are saying is Alford gets more out of 3 lone upper classmen than Crean. Crean has just as many upper classmen. Rivers and Dumes are probably more “talented” than New Mexico’s. They just play better.

  19. At crunch time two players should be optioned to make a play, Jones or Creek with Hulls distributing the ball.

  20. did I miss a joke or something, really. I skimmed above posts. Dumes was at a Juco from VU, and Jobe at Olney a Juco.

  21. Sorry, I should have had a “?” at the end of my comment.

    We did go out and get 2 Juco’s to help, but by that time, all the good Juco’s were gone. Plus, most Juco’s are going to want to go somewhere to win.

  22. How quickly do we all forget the State in which we play? Has no one here seen the movie Hoosiers? Or watched a High School basketball game from this state?

    I am not in the stevealford camp as I think we could do much better, and that Tom Crean does deserve some time. He has a young team and is learning on the job apparently. Also, the Big Ten is a new monster to tackle. With that being said, back to my original questions. When has this state ever been about just get the most athletic, highest rated players you can and you should win.

    Um, obviously that isn’t the case. Play the smartest and most fundamental basketball with at least acceptable athletes and you will win. We have all seen it time and time again. Go to a high school basketball game and you won’t see a team run a press break that throws the ball in into the corner against a trapping press. Kids from Indiana know not to do that. We couldn’t change this until half time? Obviously when we did change it, our kids where old enough and mature enough to understand then and execute. Why wasn’t the game plan changed sooner? We needed to give them 20 points off of turnovers the first half to realize our press break didn’t work and that it wasn’t lack of execution?

    Our only offense is to give one guy the ball and set a couple of ball screens a play and thats it? Even at the end of the game. How about a real play? 2 screens maybe? More than 2 guys moving? And our coach not knowing we need to foul at the end of the game when there was less than a second difference in the shot and game clocks? REALLY? SERIOSLY TOM?

    Sorry, got carried away. My main point is, It would be a lot easier to swallow the youth movement excuse and lack of leadership, if it appeared CTC was asking them to run plays and kids were obviously out of position. (This could be seen by coach letting them know they were out of position, or another player telling them, or being pulled and then the clipboard coming out. You know, the TEACHING we always hear about.) The only time this happens is on defense. On offense we drive 1 on 3 and throw a crappy pass, and coach claps and says, thats okay go do it again. It isn’t lack of execution and not having time to get players in yet.

    Sheer Athletisism only takes you so far. Give me a team of smart and fundamental 3 to 4 stars any day over a team of all about me 5 stars anyday. Memphis was one of the most talented teams on paper when the were in the championship under Cal, did they win? No, because they couldn’t hit free throws and mis-managed the game at the end. This is our future unless some things change, and fast.

    Youth could be an acceptable excuse if they were put in the right positions and then just didn’t execute. We are putting them in the position to fail. They are young, so why would you give them complete freedom to drive and shoot whenever they want? This teaches them nothing but an NBA skill set. Last I check, IU was still a college.

  23. I think a lot of what the game last night means will become clear in how we play Bryant. Hard pill to swallow last night but if you had asked me at the start of the season: “Pitt and Loyola (MD): you can only win one. Which do you choose?” I would have chosen Pitt and I still do.

    One really good game and a really bad one — like a toddler charting the territory. If we beat Michigan everything will be good again. When is Roth coming back?

  24. I’m not sure what to make of the phrase “held accountable” in this context. Should Crean be fired? Is that how the word is being used? If so, the answer is resoundingly no. And its not going to happen, for a long while.

    Does it mean that coach should have to answer questions about what he does? Pointed questions. Sure. Absolutely. Its part of it.

    Does it mean he should feel the pressure to do better? Yes. You can tell from what he said in the audio that he’s already feeling it and hearing it. He also knew this was coming, that’s why he went for the protection of a ten year contract as a way to give himself the time that he thinks he needs.

    I think he’s doing a fine job and I also think we will turn the corner. But this roller coaster stuff is brutal.

  25. First, I love Tom Crean. When he was hired, I thought he was the right man for the job. I still do. That being said, some of the things he does are baffling to me. He says that Bawa is too raw to play. What better way is there to teach a kid than to get him in the game? Especially against South Central Nobody College. This is the same mistake Sampson/Davis made with Ben Allen. Instead, we play Tijan who (let’s face it) is not going to help us win. If you’re not going to win by playing Seniors, you have to play the underclassmen so that someday when they are Seniors you can win with them.

    When IU football went to Virginia and failed to show up for the game; it was Bill Lynch’s fault. IU basketball failed to show up for the first half yesterday, and fault for that has to be placed on the Coach’s shoulders. We were clearly not ready to play.

  26. A lot of good points discussed here. I agree with the point that coach needs to chew some butt once in a while to make his point. And what’s up with the ineffective zone defense? The other team consistently gets the ball in the lane and either draws fouls or scores. Crean must shore up the defense or we will never win.

    I also agree with the comment on running Creek off of screens. He just stood around and watched people drive to the basket and throw the ball away. We also need a more effective offense.

    This season is going to be very frustrating also. If I were a new recruit, I am not so sure I would want to go to IU.

  27. How soon they forget the debacle that was last year. Last night was a work of art compared to what we had to endure last year. My only issue is Crean should know his personnel well enough by now to have a set rotation. It is unacceptable that Fink and Moore see meaningful minutes. The looking for “sparks” should be over with.

    I also agree with Korman that it’s time he step up his game and ask the tough questions instead of lobbing softballs to Crean. If Mike Davis had coached last night’s game, Wilson would have roasted him like FoxNews does Obama.

  28. I think the whole point of “accountability” is to let Tom Crean know we expect him to improve too. That he shouldn’t consider himself perfect and always blame it on the young and unexperienced team.

  29. how do you tell an nba coach’s son that his free throw shooting technique is flawed? crean has had plenty of time to do it. my guess is crean doesn’t know. river’s elbow is too far under the ball when he shoots. he’s never going to be able to shoot a high percentage like that. not a good trait for a point guard. watford also has horrible technique.

    at the end of last night’s game, harvey should have been double teamed on the inbounds and the first person he passed to should have been fouled. not that hard to figure out. crean is starting to worry me. however, he gets 3 more years to build from the mess he inherited.

  30. Note: originally posted this on Basketblog almost nine months ago..January ’09. Good free throw shooting technique can be taught.

    +_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+

    There was a man, many years ago(right here in the great basketball state of Indiana), that defined his basketball career by his teachings and his devotion to the sinking of the 15′ shot from the line. He religiously taught a method he had solely developed for achieving the best percentage success rate for this very important fundamental of the game: the free throw. His players would perfect and shoot free throws under his exacting guidance and strictly adhered to technique for hours and hours of practice…When an opponent would face his team, it was certain that his squad would not shoot themselves in the charity stripe foot…Believe me, I don’t make this stuff up….Those guys he put on the floor could sink the 15′ standing-still freebie with their eyes shut!
    He coached varsity basketball at Valparaiso H.S. (I think it was back in the 60’s and early 70’s…before the days of the Drew’s: Homer Drew, Bryce Drew, and Drew Barrymore..(I threw the Hollywood actress in just to make sure you were paying attention)in the Duneland Athletic Conference(The DAC is in Northwest Indiana…Where Korman still thinks there’s “no talent” to be found on a basketball court)…Sweet amassed many victories at Valpo high school and I believe had some pretty good runs in the state tournament(especially for a relatively small school)during his career… He was a local legend…His methods for free throw shooting(sequential steps broken down into many singular elements) is what he is most remembered for…I’m sure Hummel(Purdue)and Martin(ND) and any kid that still comes out of the Valparaiso high school basketball program are likely employing some elements of his free throw methodology… I am providing a link to one article I found on the web…If you enjoy story telling and maybe traveling down some small town country imaginary roads where Indiana basketball still has some unknown hidden treasure troves that tuck away and old obsession with this game, then maybe this is one of the few times I’ve given you something of interest…If not, oh well.
    If our free throw shooting continues to struggle, maybe Tom Crean could take a little three-hour drive up to Valparaiso, and learn of the legendary, Virgil Sweet.

  31. I was not able to see the game yesterday. But if a team goes down 15-0 to start the game they were not ready to play. It is the coach’s responsibilty to get his team ready to play and obviously IU was not ready. I’m disappointed and hope this will be used as a teaching tool, not only to the players but the coaches as well.

  32. They were fortunate in Chapel Hill that the Heels were more patient with Dean Smith than a lot of Hoosiers are with CTC. He didn’t exactly start out looking like a legend, either.
    I doubt that Korman, or any other real journalist, would want to look as stupid as FoxNews does when they ‘roast’ the President.

  33. JeremyK – Your comment about Tijan not winning games for us is not cool. When he came in last night we had not scored and was down around 20—–0. He came in and played six minutes and helped cause 3-4 turnovers and we scored while he was in there. He may not score, but he sure in the heck causes confusion and intimidation down under their basket. Next time he is in – Watch how many times they go inside or try and shoot on him – IT DOESN’T HAPPEN. Every member of this team has a purpose and Tijan has stuck with this program and tried too please jerk-offs like you too get this program back to a POWERHOUSE! Get over yourself. I would love too see you step up to the plate and on the court and do what these young men are trying to do. Couch Coaches amaze me – ALL TALK and BLOW but when it would come down to it – YOU WOULDN’T DO ANY BETTER PROBABLY EVEN WORSE. Amazing! Stay behind your computer and type your crap, these young men – ALL OF THEM will prove your nastiness wrong eventually!

  34. hard work pays off,

    I think Jeremy’s point was, why not play Bawa instead of Tijan. Everyone here knows that this year is going to be a learning/developement year, so why waste valuable, valuable, valuable minutes on Tijan when Capo, Elston, and Bawa are sitting on the bench.

    I believe as JeremyK does and that we need to get those 3 guys as many minutes as possible. It might be better for Bawa to develope more before being thrown into the fire, but there is no reason that Capo and Elston can’t get more minutes. They will be very important down the road.

  35. Stevealford:

    I think you’ll find that Crean’s did better in the Big East than Steve Alford did in the Big 10. In fact, Alford’s winning percentage in the Big 10 was worse than Mike Davis’.

    I like Steve, but let’s not campaign for a coaching change on the basis of sentiment.

  36. “Hard work pays off”- I agree with that.

    Your comment though..sorry.

    This team realistically is not going to the tournament. Therefore JeremyK does have a good point. This year is being played to win as many as possible while developing this team for the next couple of years when they do have the possibility/probability of returning IU hoops to respectability. Tijan is not going to be here. We apparently are in need of help with our “bigs”. So let’s use these minutes to develop the young guys. Now, when the others have all screwed up so bad that they need to sit down–TJ will always be ready.

    JK’s comparison to the situation with Ben A in my opinion is valid. And Allen was a player when he arrived rather than a very enthusiastic and admirable project. He was denied the opportunity to develop because we were so busy shooting all those @#$% 6-seconds into the shot clock 3’s without even looking to a post game…..against far-inferior opposition!

    I repeat, I do admire TJ for his enthusiasm, energy, and desire to do his best. He is, I am sure, a wonderful teammate. I would suggest to you also to watch how often he appears out of position, ie wandering away from the hoop, when he then has no chance to block a shot, or get a rebound.

    Your emotional name-calling in your post does not help your argument. Don’t start in on calling me names either, I’ve been called way worse than you could come up with by people whose opinion I semi-respect.

    A Merry Christmas to you and to Tijan, and to the whole team.

    Go Hoosiers, Take out your frustrations on Bryant on Monday!

  37. Tom Crean had the same MO at his last stop. Players could not make free throws when it counted, offense was basically run the shot clock down to ~6 seconds and toss up an ill advised shot and recruit 3 players, let them play as freshman so when they are Sr’s they are respectable. Then do it all again. That may have been acceptable at Marquette but it is going to get real old here real soon. This is not a mid major program “It is Indiana”.

    I know he says all the right things, but in three years when the program is at a mid major level and we are talking about his three freshman recruits that will be fabulous as Sr’s, maybe the administration will wake up and realize he is not all that.

  38. I’m not convinced it will happen that way at IU, but if it does, come back here and repost your comments and I’ll gladly recognize your wisdom.

  39. 1TrueFanJS –

    “offense was basically run the shot clock down to ~6 seconds and toss up an ill advised shot…”

    I would suggest you actually watch the games. That is not IU’s offense now and it wasn’t at Marquette’s.

  40. I am not predicting the future, only comparing the present to the past. 200 + set plays including the worthless top side weave.

    Larry – I encourage you to stop watching the game and start “seeing the game”. Put down your chips and see what is happening on the court.

    All I can say is TC is a lucky man to have fooled so many so quickly. He says everything you want to hear so it is affecting what you see. Mid Major – Sorry that is not good enough for me.

  41. TrueFan –

    Obviously your campaigning for a coaching change, and have someone in mind. Maybe…Steve Alford, maybe someone else. I recognize the signs:

    1. Opportunistic drive-by posting after a loss, but nowhere to be found after a win.

    2. Misrepresentation of the coach you want removed, including bizarre “analysis” that doesn’t reflect reality.

    3. Comparing W’s and L’s completely removed from any context, background, player roster, etc.

    4. The creation of elaborate “what if X was at Indiana?” scenarios and the conflation of those fantasies with reality.

    5. Special pleading to explain your favorite’s losses, and vastly inflating the significance of his wins.

    6. Ignoring X’s record at prior schools in a major power conference.

    There are more, but this is the sort of thing I’ve gotten all too used to seeing over the years.

  42. The Big East is hardly a mid major conference, but you know that. Since the 2005-2006 season the Big East and Big Ten have had almost identical Conference RPIs. Marquette finished ahead of IU in RPI standings in each of the three years Crean coached them in the Big East and they finished in the top third of the league each year.

    I think the idea is that Crean will have better recruiting success at IU than at Marquette and be able to take the next step here. I personally think he can do that.

    As for your observation of a static and slow offense, I don’t know what you’re talking about. This year the tempo is very high, probably too high for the players right now. I saw the offense you’re talking about under Mike Davis, I know what that looks like.

  43. The notion that Crean doesn’t know proper free throw technique but the guy on the internet does know is symptomatic of what gives blogs their well-deserved reputation for insantity.

    Its the players that shoot. Ask Shaq, he’s never been able to figure it out. Wilt too.

    But closer to home, I know a very famous and successful Hoosier player that couldn’t shoot free throws. He played for RMK. This player shot 48.8% from the line his senior season. His name is Quinn Buckner, my favorite Hoosier ever.

  44. Larry – I am impressed you can place #’s up to six but I am not sure what the rest of your post means. Unless you have me mixed up with someone else. I am not lobbying for a coaching change – I do feel the hiring of TC was a rush decision and will eventually be seen as a bump in the road to recovery. I pointed out to you that what we see now is TC’s MO and has been for years.

    GF Dave – I don’t recall stating that the Big East was a Mid Major. I believe I stated that TC is a mid major level coach. There are plenty of them in major conference’s. It does not mean mid major teams or coaches cannot have some success. Xavier is a good example of this. They are a nice team that plays in a so-so conference. They get some good players and every so often they make a run.

    IU is NOT a mid major! IU should stand toe to toe with the likes of Duke, NC, Kansas and yes it kills me to say it but MSU, year in and year out. TC is not the guy that is going to do that. His offense is weak at best, his development of players is below average and his track record of keeping the pipeline filled so there is a chance of perennial power has been non existent.

    I also never stated his offense is a slow down style. In fact his offense is anything but methodical like the General’s, or Bo Ryan’s. It is helter skelter with several resets and the never ending passing up open 18 ft shots to end up taking a defended 20 ft with no rebounders because the clock was winding down.

    I would liken TC success at IU to the same as that of MD. There will not be any unless you are happy as a mid major where you can piece together a “nice year” every once in a while.

    TC is not the coach for us – But then again you will come to that realization once the honey moon is over.

    Keep waving your towel and cheering the “wait till next year” chant.

  45. Crean has a winning record in a major conference against some of the best coaches in the country. But you’d ignore that in favor of a point of view that is not based on objective information. OK.

  46. “It is helter skelter with several resets and the never ending passing up open 18 ft shots to end up taking a defended 20 ft with no rebounders because the clock was winding down.”

    No, it isn’t. You are describing what happened under Mike Davis. I’ve been a member of Peegs’ board for many years, and believe me, if the case was this with Crean, as you’ve described it, EVERYBODY would be talking about it. Nobody has made this observation. Yours is the first I’ve seen, to say nothing of what other coaches have said.

    Really, I have no reason to believe you’re NOT campaigning for a coaching change, the moniker of “True Fan” is an all-too-familiar one I’ve seen over many years. Sometimes it’s “Real Fan” or “IU’s No. 1 Fan,” or stuff along those lines. Never the real name, and we have no way of knowing if this is just one of many sock puppets you might be using.

    There’s no way you can say “TC is not the coach for us” without having someone else specifically in mind – otherwise how could you say this? If you know someone else “is the coach for us,” how come you can’t come up with a name? The reasons are all too obvious.

  47. OK, I still had the Pitt game on my DVR, so I watched the first half and recorded these shots – the number is the time remaining on the shot clock:

    29 Pritch
    30 Pritch
    5 Creek
    28 Pritch
    27 Jones
    33 Creek
    30 Watford
    6 Jones
    25 Watford
    23 Creek
    12 Jones
    29 Watford
    32 Dumes
    28 Elston
    30 Jones
    23 Elston
    2 Capobianco
    22 Elston
    29 Elston
    16 Elston
    4 Jones
    4 Capobianco
    19 Watford
    14 Watford
    14 Pritch
    23 Creek
    31 Watford
    28 Creek
    19 Creek
    11 Elston
    30 Creek
    14 Rivers
    30 Jones
    3 Watford

    In 34 attempts, 6 were taken with less than 10 seconds on the shot clock.

    By no means could this offense be described as “helter skelter with several resets and the never ending passing up open 18 ft shots to end up taking a defended 20 ft with no rebounders because the clock was winding down.”

    You aren’t watching the games.

  48. gf dave,

    i coached high school ball for 20 years and i know bad shooting technique when i see it. same goes for poor fundamentals and team concepts. you shouldn’t assume every poster here doesn’t know what they’re talking about. just because you don’t understand the game enough to see it doesn’t mean all of us can’t. that’s why i gave specifics. i could go into greater detail but who wants to read all that. i doubt you could understand it anyway.

  49. Coachv, I understand plenty and don’t need your help, don’t want it either. Did RMK not know shooting technique because Buckner couldn’t shoot? Are all of Shaq’s shooting coaches poor because he never figured it out? No to both questions.

    Here’s some more. David Lighty and Dallas Lauderdale at OSU are shooting .569 and .475 from the line. At Duke, Miles Plumlee and Brian Zoubek are shooting .550 and .500. Even more horribly, a kid at UCONN who averages 30 minutes a game is shooting .316. Are Matta, CoachK and Calhoun bad shooting coaches too? No.

    Another fun fact: During his last three years Crean had Marquette in the top 5 in the Big East in FT percent twice.

    But you call out Crean for not knowing shooting technique because Rivers and Pritchard struggle at the line. Rather selective of you.

    But if you want to talk an area where this team needs to improve, it certainly is free throw shooting. We’re last in the B10 in percent, but number one in attempts. We’re doing a great job of getting to the rim and forcing contact. Probably a function of coaching, but I digress. There are several games out there that might of gone our way with better work at the line. My guess is Coach knows this and the players will be working on it, but that’s just silly me, the guy who doesn’t know anything.

    Larry, wow, but data and facts seem not to be of interest.

  50. Larry – as I recall the discussion was regarding why we do and will continue to lose games.

    I believe your argument has quite a few holes in it like fast break shots, shots off set inbound plays, shots made vs shots missed etc…

    However, based on the fact we won the Pitt game I could use your biased stats to prove my point, not yours.

    Just make sure you are still supporting this offense consisting of 247 offensive sets once we start playing the Big Ten schedule. I would challenge you to watch WV run their motion offense, or watch Wisconsin run their 1950’s swing offense, or watch UNC / Duke / Kansas etc…. All will produce better results than the 247 sets in TC’s book.

    TC was not a basketball player, nor is he a basketball coach. He is a talker and a schmoozer and will be the first to tell you how good he is and how young and inexperienced our players are.

    You do not have to change your mind about TC today, because that will come soon enough.

  51. True Fan – you made an assertion without evidence.

    The fact is, the offense you are criticizing is not the one Indiana is running. And you are the only one making this claim.

    Unfortunately for YOU, Crean IS a “basketball coach.” At halftime of that Pitt game, someone who DID play basketball, and who is considered by most people a “basketball coach,” was very complimentary about how the Indiana offense was running. That “basketball coach” was – Bob Knight.

    Another “basketball player” and former Duke assistant was saying repeatedly throughout that game how well the offense was working. By the way, he said the Indiana objective was to move the ball downcourt and get into their offense as quickly as possible, the very OPPOSITE of what you claim. And he said this over and over and over again, as well as expressing appreciation for how the offense was working. That “basketball player” was Jay Bilas.

    Both men would be absolutely astounded at what you are saying.

  52. Wow,1TrueFanJS dodged every fact thrown at him. Totally untouched by the cold hard stats. Then he regurgitates claims with no foundation in reality. Must have gone to the Sean Hannity School for Baseless Assumptions.

  53. Larry – Evidently you do not watch much college basketball. Jay Bilas spoons any team that is winning. Again – we are breaking down a game we won.

    You will see the truth when the time comes that you feel we should begin to win.

    TC will not bring us back to the level IU deserves

  54. (as of Dec 22, 2009)

    04 Hummel, Robbie…Pct FT-FTA 42-45 .933

    Still don’t think they know a little something about teaching free throw shooting technique at Valparaiso?

    It’s extremely close-minded to not investigate any potential avenue that can facilitate improved performance and desired outcomes. I find it far more “insane” to let preconceived notions based on blind arrogance stand in the way of giving ear to the most minority of voice. Casual segmentation of individuals outside one’s realm as void of making any worthy contribution is a sad and stagnant mentality down the wide expressway of hierarchy and assumption. …Sometimes the most treasured delights in learning arise from taking roads few have the humility to exit and travel.

  55. True Fan, you still haven’t brought any evidence to support your assertions, especially the claim of throwing up 20 foot shots as the clock winds down.

    IU at one point outscored Pitt 34 to 14 IN THE PAINT. So not only were the shots coming much more quickly than you claimed, they were coming much closer than you claimed.

    This reality (shooting quickly) has been true in our wins AND our losses. And you can claim Bilas is “spooning” all you want, but knowledgeable people don’t share that view, and NOBODY would say that about Knight. In fact, Knight went out of his way to talk about IU. When the announcer tried to steer the conversation to the previous game, Knight said, “I want to talk about THIS game.” Not only are you not watching the games, you aren’t listening to commentary.

    You will see the truth when you feel less and less disposed to post here (only after losses, naturally). As a fan, I’ll expect more wins as players mature, gain experience, strength, weight, etc., and as the roster gains talent.

  56. Larry, glad to hear you will be happy with mediocre success every few years. You will be a very happy fan over the next few years, until we find a real coach.

    As my father in-law points out about your posts, you do not understand the level of success that is expected at IU. Maybe you are young, or maybe you are a casual fan. Maybe getting to the Sweet Sixteen every 4 or 5 years and then rebuilding with NIT bids and early NCAA exits is your vision of success, but that is what mid major teams and TC hope for. That will not be acceptable to IU’s TrueFans!

    Take UNC as an example. They hired Matt Doherty in 2000. They realized he was not special and went out and hired the BEST college coach in Roy Williams. TC will make us as irrelevant as ND football.

    Again, I am happy for you, that you will be excited watching IU teams that may make the Sweet Sixteen every few years. TrueFans want more and we believe IU deserves more.

  57. Wow, you know less about Tar Heel basketball than you do about Hoosier basketball. I wouldn’t have thought that possible. For the record, not that facts have much impact on you, Matt Doherty coached for three seasons before they so quickly rendered judgment on his abilities. That was after Bill Guthridge coached for three years as Dean Smith’s successor. Dean Smith won a blistering 8 games his rookie season and was hanged in effigy on the quad. Your kind of folks. It took UNC seven years to find an acceptable replacement for Smith.
    You’ve forgotten the first rule of holes.

  58. gf dave,

    why are you spewing numbers like some fantasy league geek. i coached the game a long time and know bad technique when i see it.

  59. gf dave,

    why are you spewing numbers like some fantasy league geek. i coached the game a long time and know bad technique when i see it. that’s all.

  60. Chet

    No matter what the UNC admin says, they did not hire BG because he was “their man”. They hired him because Smith retired just before the season. Many say this was contrived by Smith to ensure BG got the head coaching job. BG was named coach of the year after his first season and despite the fact many UNC basketball faithful knew the program was going to suffer in the long term they had to retain him.

    After his three year stint which included two Final Fours, (many felt it should have included a Nat’l Championship) BG retired (was shown the door) and UNC hired MD who was a UNC guy. He had shown promise and had minor success at ND and the UNC community was head over tar heals that they had the next up and coming great young coach.

    Fault on both sides lead to his short stint and he was released. UNC DID NOT make the same mistake again. They did not go out and hire an up and comming coach. They realized what they had to offer and they went out and got the best coach in college basketball.

    Unfortunately we have given TC the farm and can not correct our mistake as easily as UNC did.

    When is TC going to be held responsible – I’ll tell you when. Never. TC has a long term high dollar contract that we cannot afford to break. He will hide behind the youth and “we are getting better” for the next 3 – 4 years. We will then see a Sweet Sixteen run by a bunch of seniors followed by another young team that will need time to develop.

    Chet, you and Larry will continue to defend him because you will continue to say “wait till next year”. My guess is you do not recognize what IU basketball should be. TC does not develop players. He has 247 set plays in his manual yet no offense. Come Feb when we are in the heart of the B10 season sit down and explain TC’s offensive strategy to someone. Other than the top side weave (which is ignorant) he has no offense.

    So cheer to your young hearts content Larry and Chet. Keep saying “wait till next year”. I prefer our admin start working on an exit strategy and find a coach that can actually coach.

    I hate to make this too long but over the holiday I spoke with a person that covered Marquette and TC for a media source the year we hired TC. He said in the past the Marquette community had felt they were in danger of losing TC to schools such as Xavier and Illinois. They were in disbelief when IU burst on the scene. The media were not surprised that TC took the IU job so quickly. Actual interest from a school of IU’s stature had never been there before.

  61. 1TrueFan-don’t ever give in to facts, reason, or intelligence, it will ruin your “charm”! If you do not think that IL and IU are about equal in “basketball stature” please check the won/lost records, post-season records, national rankings, etc. for the last 10 years! If you don’t think that we had to hire a basketball coach “fast” as in a “rushed decision”, look at the facts: IU had only 2 commitments as freshmen, both Sampson “role” players: Pritchard and Roth (neither ranked in the top 150), Coach Crean hustled like crazy to get 2 top 150 guards, Jones and Williams, and to get some solid JUCO players, but it was too late, all he could sign was Dumes and Jobe. A big 6’10 PF JUCO All-American he tried for went to KY, where he now sits on the end of the bench! Crean only has 7 players that he has recruited, Jones and the 6 freshmen, and they are all Very Good! See what sort of basketball we are playing in Feb and March, then look at the results of season #3 after the 2010-11. You will see that Crean IS the coach for the IU Resurgance!

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