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GONZAGA INDIANA BASKETBALL

Tom Crean offered a 2012 forward from Michigan who seems to fit in IU’s system. Chris Howell | Herald-Times

AT HOOSIERSHQ.COM

  • Matt Costello has a GPA in the high 3s, plays trumpet in the school band and, oh yeah, can shoot or go inside and post up his defender, Dustin Dopirak writes.
  • Alex Dickerson became the third Indiana product to make USA’s collegiate national team, Dustin writes.

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93 comments

  1. I read “waiting” as in “expecting and anticipating,” not as in “I can quit acting like I’m interested in IU because I’m definitely going to UNC.”

    Granted, I didn’t want UNC to extend an offer, but I still think IU is in his top 3 (and I’m thinking it comes down to IU and UNC).

  2. That will happen when you are a 5 star Indiana Mr. Basketball here.
    We are making a huge mistake if we are backing off J Davis for Naadir I already committed to Providence and can’t shoot the ball Tharpe. If we can’t get Davis, take Moore or save it for Yogi next year.

  3. Hmmm… A white guy named Matt, with an Italian last name that starts with a “C,” ends with an “o”…didn’t we just lose one of those?

  4. Zeller is going to UNC and he is a Butler lock…I have read it all on here! People speak of Zeller on here like he is a freaking bball GOD. I would love to have him but his play or just the fact that he picks IU will not have the long lasting impact on IU that some writers and people think. One kid does not make or break IU’s bball future, period!

  5. Yes it is appearant JD’s performance has revealed the reaching his peak this past season. Young and Tharpe are performing better and keep showing continued potential for the future. Even with his talent and wheels, Moore at this point in time because of his height is still plan C. I will say this as he keeps advancing offensively against tougher competition, I am warming to his play. I just think his defensive play in major college play will cause him to be schooled regularly.

  6. Well its a wrap, just read on ESPN insider that Zeller said “I have been kind of waiting for it. I don’t feel like they are behind at all, I have said from day one I would wait till later to decide. I WAS PRETTY HAPPY TO GET THE OFFER”. Seems to be leaning that way,

  7. You must not have seen him shut down D. Thomas if you are worried about his defense.
    I still can’t believe you guys want Young after the whole Sampson fiasco. Why clean out the entire roster if you then recruit a kid who is just as bad if not worse in the character department? kicked out of school, horrendous grades, very selfish on the court….. Are we now willing to accept anyone as long as they are talented like the good ol’ Sampson days?

  8. Seriously people. If you think a kid is leaning one way or the other just because he said “he has been waiting for the offer” you are silly. It’s ALL a smoke screen now anyway because he has no idea where he wants to go. His brother plays at UNC, UNC just got stiff armed by Plumlee (Zeller was always the backup plan to losing out on Plumlee for UNC), he’s a top 15 talent. Why wouldnt they offer him?

    From everything I have read he wants to stay closer to home and play somewhere other than where his brothers played.

    CZ is a very heady kid and is years ahead of his peers in terms of being able to deal with the media. He’ll take his 5 officials and probably decide next year in the Spring I would guess unless he gets the feeling after his visits late, late this fall.

    Still think it’s between IU and Butler.

    Wouldnt spend a whole lot of time disecting every word this kid says. He knows how to play the recruiting game and he is in absolutely no hurry.

  9. J-Pat………nice thinking if this was 1985. Unfortunately, with the situation our program is in, IU is in desperate need of game-changing type players. Not only that, but getting one of these big time recruits, especially an Indiana kid, could open the flood gates to a slew of the best of the best committing to IU. At some point Crean has to land a stud. He could keep signing capobiancos and at some point IU would have to look in a different direction because that is just not good enough at Indiana.

    It’s easy to say one guy doesnt make or break IU’s future and you could be right depending on what you mean by “future”. If you mean next year then, yes, one guy DOES make that difference. If you mean 10 years then no, one guy doesnt matter quite so much.

    Zeller would be the biggest recruit IU signed since Gordon. And he would be about 100 times more important of a signing than Gordon ever was given our 16 wins in the last two seasons.

  10. 4Guards,

    Didn’t J. Davis get suspended for some games last year due to character issues?

  11. I have been an IU basketball and football fan since the early nineteen fifties. Actually, I was born in the Bloomington hospital. I have a masters from IU. I still am an IU football fan, though I have often gave IU football somewhat of a pass. I still do not like what IU is doing in the basketball program. This includes style of play. IU recruiting has to win Indiana as the program to play in. It is just not happening concerning basketball. A big thank you goes to Myles Brand’s regime for that. Over the years I have watched and listened to hundreds of IU basketball and football games. The basketball program has along rough road ahead. Butler’s success will allow IU the opportunity to gain Butler’s coach and others he can bring into the IU program within 5 years. Then IU can get back on track to national success and own the state of Indiana.

  12. Caleb, I disagree. I don’t want a back and forth…I have explained it before. Zeller is not a game changing type of kid, especially in the physical Big 10. Maybe he will be a game changer by his 2nd or 3rd year, maybe. I never heard anyone on here making these bold claims that IU’s future in recruiting and even wins/losses hinged on Teauge, wonder why. I read how many people wanted Teauge but nothing to this magnitude. I disagree in the nicest way possible that Zeller will be a game changer like Gordon if you consider Gordon really was, Zeller is not the talent of a Bailey or Gordon. I also disagree that every stud around looks up to Zeller and is watching his decision so closely that IU will suck up many future recruits if Zeller comes to IU. It is simply one kid and HE IS NOT DOMINANT!!! With that said, I hope IU does get him and he proves me wrong in every way but I feel people are going way overboard with all of this talk.

  13. Tom, so you hope Zeller goes to Butler??? An IU grad you say but you want him at Butler…I am confused!

  14. If we don’t get Zeller, so what/he’s not the only good player out there. These kids don’t know what they want anymore, there is no loyalty these days. Yes, Zeller would be nice to have, but the kids don’t care about IU anymore. At least allot of them, and it’s not the coaches fault. I want the coach to get kids who will play his way. Let the prima donnas go to Kentucky/crooked coach there and the NC. NC didn’t do to good last year did they, tell me why. I’m behind IU all the way, and we have to Coach Crean a chance.

  15. J Davis was suspended some games, but that is a big difference from being kicked out of school. J Davis also does not have the same grade problems and selfish court behavior.

  16. The reason Young will work out at IU is we now have a responsible coach who will discipline for that BS(remember the stair steps and also the Dumes situation)not just look the other way. IU players will either exercise good citizenship(like the last two years)or suffer.
    Moore’s height is a defensive liability not to mention college teams ability to scheme match ups against him.

  17. I love the losers who always cry about Brand while giving Bobby a free pass.

    Knight should have been fired LONG before he did.

    What makes it even funnier is these same exact people will rip schools for taking a problem player “just to get some wins.”

    If Knight hadn’t won, no way IU puts up with him being the biggest jerk on the planet.

    I love irony………

  18. I didn’t see any discipline for the Rivers bench behavior last season.
    Moore has proven he can overcome the height disadvantage on defense time and time again, just like he did against D Thomas. Remember Tharp is only 5’11.

  19. Yes Laffy, Knight was a jerk + entertaining + he did win + he was about to win again. However, it was decisions after Knight’s firing that has left IU basketball in its present on-going situation. By the way it is not Tom Crean’s fault. However, it is still a mountain of a battle for him and his staff. The way it appears in less than 5 years it will be time for IU to hire another staff. By the way even Wisconsin who IU use to beat year after year, had a very winning interim coach when Dick Bennett resigned. They went out and hired Bo Ryan their present coach. Look what IU did. If it were a mid major or less that would have been one thing, but IU was one of the top 5 programs in the country.

  20. Tom, So IU sucks and we have to wait for some miracle to occur over the next 5 years after which the Butler people will come to our rescue? WTF?

  21. No GFDave, IU does not suck if you want to be satisfied with 15 to 18 win seasons including 5th to 8th place in the big ten and continue playing catch up on top in-state recruits. In the case of IU to reach the plateu of 25 to 30+ or so win seasons and runs to the final four and possible championships a stable smart staff will have to be in place. I see the program being built to 15 to 18 win seasons and struggling in recruiting that it takes to be nationally prominent.

  22. Tom,

    You and I share nearly the same era and probably some of the same memorable IU events, but I think it ends there. I hold a much more optimistic view of Coach Crean, his staff, style of play and for recruiting in the programs future.

    JR’s bench behavior was nothing compared to the actions of Sanctions thugs. Besides Coach Crean still holds the hammer in the Rivers situation. He will either comply with the coaches directions or the remainder of his behavior at IU will be observed from the bench. Maybe Young has displayed less than stellar conduct but he has much more BB potential than JD. Moore does overcome his short stature in HS but major college BB will be more challenge than opportunity for him. Hope he grows over the next year.

  23. IU has 3 basketball scholarships for 2011 that can be offered in the fall of 2010: #1) Austin Etherington, that is rock solid; #2) Cody Zeller, we know he will take all 5 visits in the fall so we will hold this scholarship until Nov 1 for him. If he goes elsewhere our “Plan B” should be Aaron Thomas. #3) BJ Young, there are no criminal issues involved, no one on this site knows ANYTHING about the details, but the IU coaches (not Sampson) DO know and they offered him. If he goes elsewhere our Plan B should be Aaron Thomas. If IU gets both Zeller and Young, then we need another transfer or NBA move to free up another scholarship for the spring of 2011 for the class of 2011 and give it to Aaron Thomas. Who would not like a 4 man class in 2011 of Etherington, Zeller, Young and Thomas? If we get neither Zeller nor Young, then I do expect us to get Thomas. So we will have one more scholarship for 2011. My order of selection would be Kaminski, J Davis, Moore, Tharpe. Obviously if Chandler, Dawson, or Quinn Cook asked for a scholarship, I would find a way to make it happen.

  24. Hoosier Clarion,

    Branch McCracken to Lou Watson (1970 Jerry Oliver stepping in for Lou’s absence) to Bob Knight….I am optimistic for IU’s basketball future. I just think it will have to cycle out of its present delima.

  25. Please lay off the Butler stuff…Stevens has won nothing. Look at BU roster of Indiana kids…unimpressive to say the least…..

  26. dudes…happiness is where your heart is….gota get their hearts intrests in btown….the whole fam to btown….it takes some years to grow that crop….nothing like the stuff fresh out of your very own garden, but the fact is the same nutrition is elsewhere….the main thing is GET What YOU NEED…..dudes and dudes and dudes

  27. TheRegion,
    Stevens has already accomplished more than Crean in his short career. He was a shot from winning the national title and not a 30+ point blowout in the final 4. Most people would say a roster full of Indiana kids is a positive thing.

  28. Thanks 4guards on Kaminski. I forgot that both he and Yogi were playing “up” on that Elite Team.

  29. 4guards…Tell me where these kids played basketball?

    1. Alex Anglin
    2. Emerson Kampen
    3. Grant Leindecker
    4. Chase Stigall
    5. Zac Hahn

    These are the marginal division 1 recruits the great brad Stevens has gotten to Butler. He has been to the same amount of final 4’s as Crean and has produced the same amount of championships. These kids know Butler is still Butler and their success this year has had ZERO effects on their recruiting……

    Why hasn’t Cody Zeller committed to Butler, what Stevens can’t seal the deal coming off a final 4 run.

  30. I would rather have Butler’s 2010 class than ours, and that is embarrassing.
    5. Zach Hahn is from New Castle. He is a lights out shooter that played some valuable minutes for them in their tournament run. Matt Howard and Andrew Smith are also from IN, as well as Fromm and Hopkins.
    Crean has never been to the championship game and Stevens has in less time. Stevens actually won in the final 4 instead of wetting himself and getting smacked around by over 30 points.

  31. The Region,

    There goes 4brainpiercings again, in love with every team that is not IU. Some fan.

    Anglin, Kampen, Leindecker, Stigall and Hahn are all proof of the recruiting prowess of Stevens. Give me VO and Sheehey any day.

  32. 4Guards,
    You have no idea what you are talking about. Have you ever seen Young play or have you ever talked to the young man. I love how you can make assumtions when you have never seen a kid play or even talked to the kid.

    If you love Stevens and Butler so much, and love how they recruit so much then become a fan of them. No one cares what you think.

    IU needs talent and Young is talented. You have no idea what went on with the “Sampson Fiasco” and I would love to hear what you think happened.

    I know you never made a mistake when you were 15/16 years old. I know we can only recruit Indiana kids who have at least a 3.5 GPA and are very polite.

    Then you go on to say you would take J. Davis over Tharpe, give me a break. J. Davis has been thrown out of high school games, suspended by his high school coach but he is ok b/c he is from Indiana. Tharpe is better than JD, ask any scout or coach.

    Your post are comical. I cannot wait to hear how you respond, btw I probably will not read it so do not bother.

    BTW, I love Coach Stevens (Know him personally), he is a great guy and a great coach. You are never going to recruit the same way at Butler as you do at IU. Butler has a nice class with Hopkins, Fromm, and the kid from Florida but it does not blow away IU’s class. How many of those kids have you seen play besides maybe Fromm (who is a great pickup for Butler.) I love people who bash and act like they know what they are talking about when they have not seen 95% of these kids play.

    Butler is better than IU right now. They did not start from scratch 2 years ago and they have a hell of a coach and a great bunch of kids but the continous bashing of IU and Crean gets a little old.

    Go be a fan of someone else, nobody will care.

    BTW, I have questioned Crean’s offense, etc and I will continue to do so until he wins. But, do not throw out random stuff you have no idea about.

  33. I never said Young was not talented. He is trouble and you do not have to meet him personally to know so.
    J Davis has 3-4″ on Tharp and a better jump shot as well. Did you ever consider that may have something to do with it?

  34. IU may win 15 games 2010-2011 (that includes cup cake wins)…2011-2012 they may win 16 or 17 games…2012-2013 17 to 19 wins…still recruiting struggles for pure top recruits without issues like injury or this side note or that side note…no team image of dominating prominence that would identify Indiana basketball…placing in the middle of the big ten.
    That is where the benchmark has been for the past 10 years at IU. The fiasco and leadership at IU in the early to mid 2000’s really cost and really hurt…it is still a few years from recovery.

    Where is the 25 to 30+ win standard

  35. It followed Steve Alford to New Mexico.
    Some of our fans are happy to finish in the bottom half of the Big10. Excuse this , Excuse that.

  36. Tommy boy,

    Would Butler beat IU this year? Remember, IU is getting their best player back….Butler lost it’s glue and best player….

    I think it would be a close game, because I don’t know if Butler has anybody to handle Creek, Elston, or Watford without Hayward & veasley guarding Iu’s wings…

    Just a thought for conversation.

  37. Brad Stevens would be making a deep tournament run next year with Hulls, Creek, Elston, and Watford. Crean will probably finish in the second half of the Big10 once again. That is the difference between the coaching of these 2 teams. It is huge.

  38. 4guards,

    Over the span of their careers, what is the difference between Crean and Alford?

    I’d love to hear some statistically-supported data spanning more than one or two seasons that positions Alford as the better coach.

    Enlighten us.

  39. Well over the course of their entire coaching careers, their respective winning percentages.
    Crean = .59
    Alford= .65

  40. 4guards, what evidence do you have that Stevens would lead a team deep into the tournament with those players. None, just you having your negative opinion about Crean, nothing else. Be honest, even if Crean starting to become successful at IU you would still bash him because of your attidude against him.

  41. 4guards,

    Go deeper than that.

    Ron Artest has more championship rings than LeBron James, but I wouldn’t call him the better player.

  42. For example, I can oversimplify too:

    Final Four appearances:

    Crean: 1
    Alford: 0

    I’m asking for an actual well-thought-out argument for why one is better than the other.

  43. All of Alford’s success has come while he was coaching in low caliber conferences. The big time conference ate him up.

  44. I am not sure how good any IU players are in regard to competing at the top of big ten competition over the whole season as a whole team playing and establishing a strong tough minded defensive and offensive team on every possession. Purdue can…Ohio State can…Michigan State can…Wisconsin can…That puts IU already down to 5th place in conference play…considering Illinois, Minnesota, Northwestern, and Iowa…not counting Nebraska yet…That puts IU and its coaching staff hopefully in the middle of the big ten…By the way Butler can.

  45. Tom I am not so sure about your assessment that Butler can because sure a team can get hot in the end, but that does not guarantee that Butler would have done that well in tough Big Ten. It is just your opinion, so stop stating opinions like facts.

  46. Bjr32,
    I would be thrilled if Crean performed up to par here, but I just don’t think he is good enough. He will put in the effort and that is great, he just doesn’t know enough about the game of basketball and can’t pull in top recruits. He has never landed a 5 star recruit in his entire career. Hopefully that will change with Zeller.
    He would be lucky to be an assistant coach somewhere right now if Wade would have been smart enough to qualify anywhere of significance. One decent year doesn’t make a coach.

  47. 4guards,

    You argue on behalf of how Butler’s coach and team operate — then bemoan Crean’s lack of ability to pull in 5-star recruits. How many 5-star recruits has Brad Stevens pulled in? He showed that hoarding 5-stars isn’t a sure-fire, or the only way to win. I find it interesting that you care so much about rankings when you champion a team and coach who don’t at all.

    Once again, I’m waiting eagerly for your rational argument as to why Alford is a better coach than Crean, despite his tendency to flop under pressure and retreat to lesser conferences to rack up wins.

  48. I am not going to judge him yet on his recruiting because the situation he was put in does not make his case the best to 5 star recruits, but in regards to his coaching I just do not think you like his coaching style or his offensive system. Maybe it is because you like what was done during the Knight era and think anything else is not as good. You have not given him the chance with a good team yet and I think your mind was made up the second you decided you didn’t like his style of basketball.

  49. BJR32 I am referring to how Butler has created a smart tough minded image on play after play in their league and in tournaments…in recent years pre-season nit, ncaa tournament…IU has to do it in its league; the big ten. The program has along way to go from its present point of reference to move beyond the middle of the pack in the big ten. Years away.

  50. I love how 4guards uses a suspension from school, athletics, or grades issues as a measuring stick of how good of a person is. Here are a few suspensions for you 4guards….

    1. Lebron James suspended

    2. Chrishawn Hopkins …ineligible at Manuel, moved to vegas, came back to manuel. Brad Stevens must be a poor judge of character

    3. Marquis Teague…suspended for too many techs, recruited by Matt Painter.

  51. Casey,
    Stevens is a great coach. He doesn’t need the top players to have a top team. He has a good offensive and defensive system. His players are fundamentally sound. He can coach a team to victory.
    Crean HAS to have better talent than the opposing team for us to have a shot. He is not going to outcoach anybody.
    Also, if Stevens was at IU and not Butler, it would be much easier to bring in the 5 stars. We have had the Alford argument many times before so there is no need to rehash all of that. Just ask yourself this, Would Crean be winning 30 games if coaching at New Mexico?

  52. TheRegion,
    Being dismissed and being suspended are 2 different things. Add the grades and selfish attitude to it and it all adds up.

  53. It is not just Brad Stevens but also the rest of Butler’s staff. The large majority are in house Butler people. With Crean IU has Ex Ball State coach Tim Buckley leading the charge. Sharpness vs. dullness.

  54. 4guards,

    It’s easy to speak in “ifs” and “woulds.” Try using facts to arrive at a conclusion every once in a while.

    Would Crean be winning 30 games in a conference that includes BYU, UNLV, San Diego State, Colorado State, Utah, TCU, Wyoming and Air Force (a conference of such tradition!)? Very possibly — but I’m not a psychic.

    Let’s look at what has already been proven: would Alford be consistently successful he coached in the Big Ten? That question has been answered.

    Meanwhile, in his final three seasons at Marquette (in the BIG EAST), Crean coached 20, 24 and 25-win teams, respectively — good for a .690 winning percentage. That’s in a power conference — not some cream puff group of teams.

    Here’s what separates you from a rational thinker:

    Crean came to IU with a career winning percentage of .664 — higher than Alford’s, which you conveniently omit from arguments (Also funny to note that playing in the MWC has inflated Alford’s winning percentage, while coaching through the aftermath of the Sampson situation has unfairly skewed Crean’s). Most people would look at Crean’s early struggles and say “wow, this situation must’ve been much worse than anyone could foresee,” given that Crean had already proven his ability to be successful elsewhere.

    Instead of seeing Crean’s first two seasons as the statistical outliers that they are, you conclude that it’s an indictment on his ability to coach, which in the opinion of most, has already been proven elsewhere.

    Your inability to see anyone else’s point of view puts the cherry on top.

  55. So Crean has won exactly 1 tournament game while coaching in a power conference. You act like he really tore up the Big East. He never finished better than tied for 4th place.
    Steve Alford had a 25 win season at Iowa and finished tied for 2nd place in the Big 10.

  56. Well, to me, all that shows is that the Big East is a deeper and stronger conference than the Big Ten. The fact that a 25-win season is only good for 4th or 5th place in the Big East speaks to the strength of the conference — not the inability of the coach.

    And my point is, both coaches are similar in almost every respect; so saying Alford would excel in Crean’s role, or vice versa, seems kind of silly and unreasonable.

    Further, if you view Alford’s body of work as qualification for being a good coach, then you should really view Crean as a similarly-skilled coach.

    For the billionth time, I don’t think Crean is the God of the coaching profession, but it’s ridiculous to make a judgment on his ability to right the ship at IU based on two seasons — one of which featured two returning players: Kyle Taber and walk-on, Brett Finkelmeier. The other season placed a disproportionate amount of responsibility on a freshman class — more than any normal, stable program.

    You and others let your impatience and desire for immediate victories cloud your vision of what Crean can potentially do here. It’s great to want to win. It’s great to be passionate. But at some point, you’ve gotta put things in perspective, and I think you fail to on a consistent basis.

    Most of your posts seem chock-full of hatred for Crean, and void of much thoroughly thought out reasoning.

  57. Surprise surprise negative Crean comments. Not on from 4 guards.What’s Alford’s tournament record?
    Lets base coaching sucess on the Calipari
    system.How many players has Alford put into the NBA? What about Stevens? Now Crean?
    Stevens is a great young coach,and he would be my first choice to be Creans replacement.I hope that Coach Crean will have a long,sucessfull career at INDIANA

  58. I don’t really care how many of our kids go to the NBA. I just care about them winning in college. And anybody wanting to base coaching success on the Calipari system is deeply flawed, but then again you are a Crean Apologist.

  59. FACT: Steve Alford’s B10 conference record
    at Iowa after 8 seasons ** 61w-67L **

    That is called being ate up in the big time.
    Not even 8 wins a year average.
    Clearly out of his league and over matched.
    Then hollers adios and waves a white flag while
    boarding an Albuquerque bound Greyhound.
    Soon after re-entering the bush leagues
    fireworks are on display for a 30 win season.
    Just like the old days. Success again.

  60. FACT: Tom Crean’s B10/Big East conference record
    at Marquette/ IU after 5 seasons **36w-51L**

    That is called being BEYOND ate up in the big time.

  61. How quickly Tom forgot how Butler got beat handily by Minnesota last year on a neutral floor……Butler got hot in the tourney and all of sudden they are world beaters.

    BTW, Stevens best players weren’t recruited when he was the head coach…..his best was Tyler Smith….on the bench.

  62. Marquette was only in the Big East for 3 years while Crean was there. The conference record was 31-19. The often discussed Wade and the absolutley terrible run to the semi-finals was made representing CUSA. Marquette finished 4th and 5th twice.

  63. 4teeth,
    We all know how you cherry pick stats for your bias, now I will to give each 8 seasons.

    FACT:

    Coach Tom Crean

    Last 6 seasons @ Marquette
    2 seasons @ IU
    Combining conference records
    65W – 70L
    (SA was 61W – 67L @ Iowa)
    If you are proud of Alford’s record then you are equally proud of Coach Tom Crean’s.
    Doctor Tom Davis left Stevie boy something good in the cupboard when he left. Unlike the thugs Sanctions left.
    Or if you did not like that 4teeeth we will use the next 3 IU BT conference seasons records(dropping the last 3 in C-USA for Marquette)and embarrass Alford again. Stevie boy only succeeds in conferences of lower caliber competition. An indisputable FACT.

  64. 4cherries,

    I can tell the future better than you interpret the past. Although you are champion cherry picker.

    Everybody but you knows the future for SA.

    Many, many wins in the BUSH LEAGUES!

    Coach Crean 65W – 70L

    Stevie Boy 61W – 67L (Then Surrender)

  65. Still waiting, 4guards…

    In case you forgot, I’m wondering how, despite very similar track records, Alford is the superior coach to Crean.

    And to be sure, my point here is not to rip Alford, but rather, to show that touting Alford’s accomplishments and trashing Crean for having a very similar track record is humorous, and ridiculous.

  66. Alford is a bad coach, probably as bad as Crean.

    Crean should move to Iowa to prove Clarion right.

  67. Very interesting discussion. I think that I can detect a slightly new 4guards. Yes, he still has strong opinions. But now he will address factual issues head on. Casey asked for career winning stats, and 4guards produced them: Crean .59, Alford .65. Then Casey pointed out that Crean was .664 before he got to IU and Hoosier Clarion noted that Iowa was 61-67 in the Big 10 under Alford. Millport pointed out that Crean was 31-19 in the Big East finishing 4, 5 and 5, plus the Final Four run when Marquette was in Conference USA. I will note that those finishes are very impressive when you look at the basketball powers in the Big East: Syracuse, U-Conn, Villanova, Pittsburgh, Louisville, Georgetown, that is 6 equal to MSU, Purdue, WI and OSU, plus Notre Dame and West VA, certainly the equal of or better than IL. So I think that we can agree that a finish of 5th or better in the Big 10 or 8th or better in the Big East is above respectable. Both Crean and Alford are “good” coaches, based on their records. Neither is “elite”, as in Coach K or Izzo. But what makes a coach great? 1) Recruiting, 2) Coaching season preparation and game decisions, 3) Good administration, marketing, university representative, etc. All of these factors, 1-3, over a lengthy time period, with consistency show greatness. Both Crean and Alford have the chance to be great. But Crean has a big advantage-INDIANA! Crean took the “hit” on his W-L numbers by coming to IU. But if he can get IU in to the top 25 on a consistent basis, since it is a “marquee” program in a “big time” conference, it will mean much more than Alford doing the same at New Mexico. Three seasons from now, that would be after Crean’s 5th at IU, we should have the facts to resolve this argument. Already you have to give Crean a big A+ for his work in category 3) above.
    But Tom, your point on “The fiasco and leadership at IU in the early to mid 2000’s really cost and really hurt”, conveniently forgot the Final Four run and 2nd place finish in the “Big Dance” in 2001-02. Those nasty facts always get in the way of a really good barb. Now maybe you could amend the time to 2002-08. But that would ignore the facts that IU was in the NCAA in 2002-3 (1-1), the NIT in 2004-05 (0-1), the NCAA in 2005-06 (1-1), the NCAA in 2006-07 (1-1), and the NCAA in 2007-08 (0-1). It was a cheating coach and athletic department lax oversight in 2006-08 that torpedoed IU’s basketball program. The Davis-Sampson years (2000-08), on the court, were very typical of Indiana basketball in terms of results.

  68. It should be pointed out that in that 3 year span Crean was in the Big East, The Big 10 had the same amount of teams in the Final 4 and 1 more team reach the championship game.
    So obviously the best teams in the Big 10 were better than the best teams in the Big East.

  69. Casey,
    Alford makes better in game adustments, his teams are more funadmentally sound and just flat out play smarter basketball.
    He finished near the top in voting for National Coach of the Year for a reason, while winning his 2nd Conference Coach of the year in the last 2 years.

  70. Finishing near the top in voting for National Coach of the Year…

    That sounds a lot like me saying “Crean’s a good coach because he took a team to the Final Four. They finished near the top of the NCAA.”

    Close doesn’t count, according to you.

    And since you like to bring up early tournament exits, how did UNM fare in the NCAA tournament? Again…a classic case of you applying a certain rule only when it helps prove your point.

    Alford is an above average coach in a weak conference.

    Comparing Alford’s time at UNM to Crean’s time in a much more difficult situation in a much stronger conference is ridiculous. Compare them on a level playing field — Alford’s coaching career in power conferences vs. Crean’s. Not much difference.

    It’s sad that you have to factor Crean’s two seasons at IU (in an unprecedented situation) in order to claim Alford’s the better coach.

    You’re obviously not interested in making a direct, substantiated argument though, so cheers.

  71. Just by looking at the past we can’t prove Alford is superior. As a matter of fact before this year Alford’s record wasn’t even as good as Crean. What happened this year is what gives 4guards some interesting, potential credibility: 4guards predicted Alford will do well. Alford almost did really well — but I think I’d be more comfortable with Alford having two more good years at UNM before trying to bring him here to replace Crean. Meanwhile the next two years for Crean won’t be easy, but if he manages to make the team play like they played in MSG nobody will ever remember Alford. Even Jeremiah played well then! From all this turmoil I hope Crean emerges stronger, and IU. 4guards is just very concerned that that might not happen. Nobody knows, but some of you have a higher degree of confidence than others. I like the discussion is getting more civil overall.

  72. Alford must have learned how to make in game adjustments after surrendering his position at Iowa. But I doubt that notion of his talent.

  73. Tom Crean almost surrendered last year. He hasn’t much left in him but will drag this program down with him while collecting a few more months of his exaggerated large salary.

  74. Nothing like Alfie did at Iowa. How discouraging it must have been to admit defeat and move down to a conference of lower competition. The Hoosier Freshmen are now Sophomores and things will be different.

  75. Let’s not give 4braincells too much credit for “predicting Alford would do well.” First of all, he predicted Pat Knight would do well, and then swept him under the carpet stealthily as soon as he began to falter. Second, Alford had had two good years before last year, so predicting a 3rd good year certainly doesn’t make him Paul the Octopus. Finally, a simple-minded country boy like Tards will always pick Alford to do well, because he loves him. There is no skill involved.

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