2. Clarion, if you’re holding Isaiah up as a model of ‘personal character’ I believe you’ve made ‘iamfor’s’ point. But I’d like to think that not every kid from the inner-city is bad, they just seem to have an even greater sense of entitlement if they have been pampered athletes than their suburban or small-town counterparts. Comes from being treated like royalty in neighborhoods where there are so few opportunities.

  3. Thanks for supporting my statement as that is exactly why I highlighted his Mother’s strong hand. His personality excelled in controlled environments. The influence of inner city culture is predominantly why she wanted Isiah under the thumb of RMK. She recognized he always responded well to strong personalities which he proved many times when on his own and there was no exceptional guidance for him to respect and follow. I would also add that if she had been a Mother of less dominance Coach Knight would have taken a pass on Zeke.

  4. Clarion, you make a good point. I bet there are a lot of NY Knicks fans who wish that Zeke and his Mom were a package deal.

  5. How true, off the court and and in the real world he displays lack of focus and makes damn poor decisions. I do not pretend to know in his case as to which one causes the other. Still a tremendous PG.

  6. Worth noting that people in high places of presumably high moral character – even ones who had good parents – err all the time, and in plain public view. Isaiah has made bad decisions, just like Governor Arnold has, Newt has, and the Weiner guy, just to name a few in recent memory.

    I don’t think you can blame any of this on “inner city culture,” “Austrian culture,” “passion for one’s country” (as Gingrich claimed was the reason for his marital infidelity) or “growing up metrosexual” (this was Limbaugh’s explanation for Weiner’s actions).

    Humans are animals just like frogs and antelopes; only we have trained ourselves to moderate/curb our instincts through thousands of years of civilization. Once in a while, even with the best of us, we lose the battle with the Ego and get sucked into selfish temptation.

  7. BS! Those are exceptions, not the norm. In making right decisions the % is with the high road. Always will because humans reason, other life does not.

  8. RMK comes into every discussion in every thread. Wow. It was heavy in the past, but since Crean hired Cheaney, it’s been saturating the comments with a frequency beyond anything I can remember on this site. And then we have the promo with his picture plastered on the pages of Scoop and IDS for his upcoming talk at Clowes Hall…It’s like the man never left. Has he left?

    I believe I’m somewhere near the same age of Clarion/Tsao/Chet….I like to believe I barely look a day over thirty-five. I’m as guilty the rest of you…I bring Bobby into discussions now and then, but did we care about this man as much when he was actually coaching at IU? Back in the days my youth when I strutted around the IU campus, daydreaming between classes through the beautiful tree-lined pathways of shade dancing with rays of sun, I thought of the beautiful young lady that sat next to me in my Sociology of Work class far more than RMK. I didn’t much think of hoops until I was at an Assembly Hall game..My attention got kicked up a notch when it became apparent we had a decent team and their could be a chance a tournament appearance/run…Why are we now so obsessed with Knight? Is this just a manifestation of old age? Are our brains so fried from smelling weed billowing out the cracks around the dorm room door those guys from southern Indiana, the dudes that never stopped listening to ‘BRUCE!'(as in Springsteen), that the only space left in our brains to hold memories our days at IU is of a blowhard coach that grew a potbelly to rival his mouth? Question: Who was the President of the United States during the time period of those strong teams under Knight? Was it Jimmy Carter? I think this Scoop blogging site is primarily for senior citizens. Maybe we could just have a thread where we can discuss Geritol and Depends instead of RMK? Can you set that up for us, Hugh? You guys start without me..I prefer to breakaway(“Breaking Away”..what a great movie) for a few moments and return to daydreaming that gorgeous girl from Brazil that sat next to me in Sociology..Why on earth did I never ask her out for a date? I was such a shy momma’s boy wimp. No wonder I blabber so much now. Could barely ever get anything out of my trap back then. I wonder if Steve Alford is also experiencing incontinence…? Upcoming thread?

  9. Disagree, Clarion. Human reason is a “slave to the passions,” as David Hume once remarked. Although we like to think that reason leads us to moral conclusions and respect towards others, it more often leads us to our own selfish needs and away from the common good.

    You may be right about percentages being with the high road – I am thinking about 80/20. But take away the law and religion, and that number plummets.

  10. Oh, and by the way, animals don’t nuke each other, poison their own food supplies in the name of profit, commit terrorist acts, or serial kill. These acts are the elite domain of “reasoning beings.”

  11. Hume as an Empiricist was holder of philosophical tunnel vision. If he had married and raised a family he would have recognized human reasoning. You are right about faith and law. The two develop a culture allowing an environment to contrast the choices of right and wrong decisions, making up a percentage closer to 99/1. The 24/7 news industry spends the majority of its time, researching and investigating high and low to get enough topics about wrong choices to get/keep our attention. 24/365 would not offer enough time to list all the right choices decided on in 1 hour.

  12. …and I suppose animals do not eat their own… Enjoy your future coffee klatsch times with Hume.

  13. Agree for the most part, except about your label of Hume. Much too simplified; sounds like you glance at Wikipedia and applied a quick label.

    All the great empiricists – John Locke, Francis Bacon, John Stuart Mill etc ( a core which greatly influenced the US Constitution) – believed unquestioningly in reasoning power. For them it was a question of inductive vs. deductive reasoing. Inductive reasoning – i.e., observing and forming conclusions based on your empirical observations – could lead to the discovery of truths. Deductive reasoning was the next step: truths and scientific facts established through observation could then be used as a basis for morality.

    The fact that Kant, a philosophical champion of “the Golden Rule” of morality, was inspired by Hume disproves your simplification of the Scotsman.

  14. You guys fascinate me.
    Not complaining or anything, and you guys are totally welcome to take these discussions on as distant a tangent as you see fit. But I’m just amazed that a blog post that was literally two sentences about a recruit that Indiana had just barely started recruiting inspired this.

  15. Dustin- Thank you for not deleting the posts. We should savor these opportunities to connect sports to broader issues and have some civilized debate.

    Really, in my opinion, the Scoop is soooo boring when we limit our summer discussions to the crossover dribble of a high school sophomore with a 10% chance of coming to IU in 3 years.

    Hume, Kant, Locke, the Stanley Cup, patriotism, Rygar…it’s all good!

  16. Now you are expounding positively about human reasoning. How did I know that would soon take place? I am sure it was hard to admit you were on soft footing. Also do not get uppity, I too in college spent a few hours wrapped around or in philosophy studies where I discovered as a whole philosophers are tunnel visioned, for if they were not they would not have thoughts worth quoting for centuries. But even philosophers disagree with one and other which is why using their findings as facts for supporting a position is amateur or light-weight at best.

  17. Actually, Clarion, my point was to show you that you oversimplified by creating a false dichotomy between “empiricism” and “reasoning”, by showing you how philosophers didn’t consider them mutually exclusive.

    Where in the world did I express “my own” “positive” views on the matter?

    Control your temper, Clarion. You have a tendency to quickly accuse others of “BS,” “uppitiness,” and your immediate defensiveness, the minute an argument gets slightly intellectual.

  18. When you said you agreed with me except for the labeling of Hume, that was positive. I almost thought you had seasoned in one afternoon. Get as intellectual as you can but have better facts for ammo than a philosophical quote. …and since I am the only one in control of me, I’ll be anyway I damn well please…

  19. Clarion-

    Please use “darn”; you are only confirming my suspicion that you are the Howard Dean of conservative minded Scoop bloggers.

    By the way, I didn’t see your “facts” aligned, for what its worth; just opinions passed as fact.

  20. I’ll never win a battle of one liners with you. I’ll leave you with a pleasant memory as my parting remark.

    Scenario: 2 years ago, week before Oaken Bucket Game, Hoosier Scoop blog

    HT: “Purdue is a much, much better team that will destroy Lynch’s horrible Hoosier squad”

    Clarion: “That’s an opinion! Not a fact! Husky deals only in shifty opinions, not facts!”

    FINAL SCORE: Purdue 38, Indiana 21. Just the facts, ma’m.

  21. Dustin-

    Can you omit my “Blabbermouth” post as you have omitted so many in the past(e.g. my last one that Hugh axed using the name ‘Turtlesoup’)? My strained pointless ramblings seem more trite than ever compared to these philosophical discussions on human nature. Anyway, I adhere more to a symbolic interactionist perspective and have always believed man has the capacity to change. This change is often moved, whether perceived within the moral groundwork of the day in positive or negative direction, shaped by the daily interactions, a set of ever-changing reshaping and re-reacting to the various social and interpersonal relationships our time spent, the confined movements(face-to-face or in cyberspace), on this place we call earth. And let’s face the most important facts..it’s hard to change the world(no matter philosophical perspective the course of human nature) when many are part of that unlikely lottery to be born absent the great minds of HT and Clarion. Evolution skips over many to varying degrees..There are those that are great thinkers and those placed here to clean up their stinkers. Though, it is fair to say, sometimes a plumber does drive a Hummer, and sometimes a ‘brain’, drives a gas-guzzler the same. I digress…Can you just please omit the “Blabbermouth” post. If I would have only interacted with that Brazilian girl in my Sociology of Work class…maybe it all would have turned out differently. Not that I have regrets…It would have just turned out differently. Our lives turn on every dime our choices.

  22. OnEvery-

    Thanks for chiming in to the debate, and preventing it from being a war of one-liners between two old stalwarts.


    No repositioning anywhere on this whole thread on my part. Where we agree: the Law and Religion play a central role in our lives as moral creatures. Our difference is that I happen to think that it is more top-down pressure and coercion that makes us do the right thing more than an innate individual human ability to reason.

    As for your assault on philosophy, remember that “philosophy” encompasses thinkers as diverse as Edmund Burke, Tsao Tsu (the real one not the blogger), Plato, and Milton Friedman. Throwing out the opinions of these thinkers simply because they are “philosophers” is throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

    As for your love for “facts,” facts are what we get from empirical observation rather than philosophy. Yet you condemned empiricism in post #13. Look who is repositioning!

  23. No problem. I’m all for diversion, but it’s pretty simple to understand the strategy in bringing these type discussions to a sports blog. Dustin may choose to buy into that “savor these opportunities to connect sports to broader issues” line of BS you threw at him…Sometimes I prefer it stay in the yuppie coffee shops. It’s the same old transference of arrogance that implies a superiority in our Hoosier sports discussions based on the impressive plethora of brilliance and worldliness attained by expounding on endless literary background your thick brains. Build your mountain of learned bullsh** so the “simpletons” pay you adoring attention when you want to let out a few caveman grunts, dumb it down with the boys in sauna at the Yacht Club(“Nincomscoop crowd”?), when football season rolls around. Fire Bill Lynch now!!….Ugh-ugh!!…Pearl Jam the blitzing linebacker…go deep Plato post pattern on two!..Hut-hut!! My dad played football. He played damn good football. Though far from an ordinary man, I fear his handshake and his good heart would be lost and unappreciated at your sophisticated dinner table. His own daughter once called him illiterate..It makes me a bit sad….a form of intellectual polarization and making great men feel small. That is the course our current day.

  24. On Every Dime, lest you think we’re getting too intellectual here….I’m following this discussion wearing my “worst state ever” (with the outline of the k-state) t-shirt. And I understand and don’t feel ‘talked-down-to.’ No one is suggesting that one has to understand Kant, phenomenology, Plato, or the childhood traumas of Yosemite Sam to enjoy sports but it is refreshing (not insulting) to hear real sports fans debate larger issues sometimes just to confirm that there is life beyond Dale Jr.

  25. Maybe go sell that condescension to your blowup doll at your Friday night KFC party tomorrow. This thread started with an ugly statement of prejudice, an ignorant stereotypical view of inner city morality, and impotently tackled the subject matter by gradually departing into a warring of egos. I don’t need to recant Kant to my best friend house mouse to recognize your opportunity to be humble servants a good topic failed miserably.

  26. This thread started with an ugly statement of prejudice, an ignorant stereotypical view………..??? I doubt Isiah’s Mom would agree with you. Life taught her different.

  27. Dustin, I was about to post ‘only in Bloomington can a discussion of basketball recruiting morph into a discussion of Empiricism as it relates to Hume, Mill and Kant,et al’ when I read your comments. This has to be the most intellectual sports blog on the planet. This is a good thing. And people wonder why we consistently maintain that we’re better than Kentucky and Purdue ……

  28. Hoosier Clarion
    Reading some of your ramblings is like reading the Unabomber’s manifesto. Like you he is the perfect example of someone who is too intelligent for his own good.There is a fine line between intelligence and insanity so you might want to take a few steps back.The orderlies from the insane asylum aren’t knocking at your door yet but they are cruising your neighborhood.

  29. I am always flattered to entertain someone who occupies such a lofty perch. No charge.

  30. Dustin, your comment up top cracked me up…you are showing that your age is surely closer to mine with that post. I have to say…I totally agree!!! haha…

  31. Eric- you go that right. I poked around on a few UK blogs once, and found a very “different” crowd. Let’s just say that if I were to mention “Kant”, they’d say “dude, it’s kan not>, man! Learn to spell!”

    By the way, there are some contradictions here. Dustin and eric – and maybe JPat – seem to enjoy our bizarre but intelligent digressions and tangents. Yet, someone is working tirelessly behind the scenes to continually censor my posts!

  32. Ha, thanks JPat. And HC, it actually did sort of start with an ugly statement of prejudice, but it wasn’t yours. Saying anyone who comes from the Chicago Public School System is likely an academic and character risk is insulting a humongous number of people. Chicago, I’m sure, has urban problems like any other major city, but that certainly doesn’t make EVERYONE in its schools a risk. Your statement on Isiah’s mother was a reaction to that. As much as your discussion is way the hell out there, it sort of civilized an uncivilized sentiment (which I should’ve deleted then and will now) which is the reason I let it roll.
    Ironic, of course, is that neither Isiah Thomas nor Jalen James went to public high school (or at least, Isiah didn’t graduate from one and Jalen doesn’t go to one). It makes the discussion make even less sense, but, hey, it’s summer. As long as you guys are having fun…

  33. Dustin-

    Thank you so much for pointing out my comment about an “ugly prejudice” was never intended for Clarion. As you stated, it was the comment you have now omitted from the thread(the one referring to Chicago public schools and made the claim of “no loss” to lose out on an inner city kid..It was originally in the #2 position). It may also be possible that some bloggers were confused the position Clarion was originally taking immediately after that post. Clarion has a unique style and this can lead to ambiguity in deciphering whether sincerity or sarcasm is present in his formulations and debates.

    We only need remember the way many of Sampson’s players were lumped into unfair accusations where stereotypical comments laced with bigotry and hate were the order of the day on the Bloomington blogs. I doubt those that took part in those disgusting rants are now living in Kentucky or West Lafayette. One of the roaches crawled out and we found it more fitting to discuss philosophers. Maybe I’m wrong, but I just found my stomach turning when a long debate took place, and in the process of sharing some deep points of view on human nature, I felt a sort of verification was taking place to such hateful words born from a pathetic and sorry individual.

    It’s hard to imagine I may unknowingly sit next to that despicable person in Assembly Hall while cheering for Indiana. It’s harder yet to imagine this type of scum will sell those repulsive values to their undeserving children.

  34. Dime–methinks your relentless negativity may be a bit harsh for the majority of your fellow posters.

    Dawg–good one about ‘Kant’ vs ‘Kan not’!! I’m transplanted to the south where lots of UK fans reside so I have to humor them to some degree; I know of what you speak.

    Dustin–it must be entertaining to set off these wildly divergent threads with an innocent post about a 16-year old,huh?? I rather envy you, man.

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