Hoosiers have court stormed on them at Nebraska, fall 70-69

LINCOLN, Neb. — When Jordan Hulls’ desperation heave off his own miss clanked off the backboard and the rim, the Indiana Hoosiers found out what it was like to have the court stormed on them.

Unlike the Kentucky players that found themselves toppled during the mayhem at Assembly Hall on Dec. 10, the Hoosiers had plenty of room Wednesday night to trudge off the Devaney Center floor unmolested with hanging heads and despondent facial expressions. Nebraska’s court-storming barely filled the large block “N” at center court, let alone the entire floor like Hoosier fans did on a Bloomington night that suddenly seems like a distant memory.

Despite building a 13-point second half lead, the No. 11 Hoosiers never buried Nebraska, and the underdog Cornhuskers made sure they suffered the consequences of that failure. The normally automatic Hulls missed a critical front end of a set of one-and-one free throws with 19 seconds to go. Nebraska center Jorge Brian Diaz made two foul shots to give the Huskers a one-point lead with 11 seconds left, and Hulls missed on a layup and a 3-pointer on the game’s final possession to give Big Ten newcomer Nebraska a 70-69 win in front of 8,613.

And after a thrilling 15-1 start, Indiana finds itself trying to avoid panic mode and a free fall that would derail an extremely promising season. The Hoosiers (15-4 overall, 3-4 in the Big Ten) have now lost three straight since cracking the Top 10 of both the Associated Press and ESPN/USA Today polls, with this being the second game of those three that they were favored to win. The Cornhuskers (10-8, 2-5) had won just one conference game before Wednesday in their inaugural Big Ten season and that came against a Penn State team that is also largely expected to finish hear the bottom of the confernce

Afterward, Indiana coach Tom Crean and his players seemed to be very much in damage control. They strained to keep their heads high in post game interviews, crediting Nebraska and saying they actually believed Wednesday night’s game to be an improvement over their previous two losses.
“This league has 12 teams that can play with anybody,” Crean said. ‘We’re one of them, as is Nebraska. … You can’t get too concerned with records with anybody in this league right now. We certainly never played Nebraska like they’d won one game. We knew how good they were. Our guys had great edge tonight. They had excellent energy. We did so many good things.”

Despite the outcome, they actually did, and in certain ways the box score didn’t seem to add up to an Indiana loss. The Hoosiers shot 51.0 percent from the field (26-for-51) while holding Nebraska to 37.7 percent (23-for-61). They won the rebounding battle 34-32. They moved the ball well for the most part and had at least a hand in causing the Cornhuskers to take 30 of their 61 shots from beyond the 3-point arc. Freshman forward Cody Zeller had yet another efficient performance with 18 points, seven rebounds and two assists and Hulls chipped in with 12.

But there were critical flaws that burned them in their last two losses that came back to burn them again. They committed 15 turnovers in the game, including 10 that came in the second half that turned into 10 Nebraska points, which were a big part of the reason the Huskers stayed in the game.

“We’ve got to take care of the ball better,” Crean said. “I think we’re going to go back and look at the film and we’re going to look at the turnovers in the second half and just see how excruciatingly painful those were for us, because those turned into more easy baskets for Nebraska. … I think it was just our strength with the ball and some decision making.”

Nebraska, meanwhile, just kept shooting until shots started falling. They made just six of their first 22 3-point attempts, but then knocked down four of their last eight to roar back in the game. Star senior guard Bo Spencer shot through slumps and finished with 23 points on 8-for-19 shooting. Senior guard Toney McCray scored 11. Diaz and senior guard Dylan Talley scored 10 each.

“We ran stuff and we executed it,” Nebraska coach Doc Sadler said. “We were calling a play every time and the guys executed it. We missed some, but I really thought … for the most part, we took good shots.”

And even though the Huskers lost the overall rebound battle, they won a critical segment. Indiana grabbed just five offensive rebounds and finished with two second-chance points while Nebraska got 10 of each, lengthening some possessions and allowing the Huskers to keep shooting.

The Hoosiers were ahead 63-52 with 6:38 to play when Nebraska’s shots started going down in a hurry. McCray and Spencer hit 3-pointers during an 8-0 run that made it 63-60 with 4:28 to go and from there, the Huskers kept chipping away until the Hoosiers were clinging to a one-pint lead with 38 seconds to go. Hulls drew a foul and made two free throws with 35 seconds to go before Talley grabbed an offensive rebound and a putback to make it 69-68 with 23.8 seconds left.

And on the following possession Hulls, who earlier this year snapped a Big Ten record streak of 58 consecutive free throws, missed the crucial front end of the one and one.

“He’s a human being,” Crean said. “Nobody’s more disappointed than he is. But you know what? We wouldn’t trade having him at the line again. … He’s been phenomenal at the line. He just missed a free throw.

Diaz got position on the low block on the next possession before drawing the foul from Will Sheehey and draining both free throws. The Hoosiers didn’t call a timeout on the inbound even though they had one remaining, and Hulls drove most of the length of the court, finding a corner around the paint to turn. He arguably should’ve pulled up before going for the layup. He missed. the ball kicked out to the 3-point line, he grabbed it and threw up an off-balanced prayer that went unanswered, allowing the Hoosiers slide to continue into Sunday’s home game against Penn State.

“We just gotta go back to the drawing board,” sophomore guard Victor Oladipo said. “Compete in practice and all of those kind of things and make sure these losses don’t pile up.”
And try to ignore the fact that they’re already starting to

“We just got a group of guys that have that edge, that have a desire,” Crean said. “We’ve got to make sure we refocus them, that we re-energize them, and we do not let them get discouraged. We make sure we understand disappointment is inevitable in life, but discouragement is our choice and we choose not to have it.”

AUDIO: Doc Sadler

AUDIO: Tom Crean

AUDIO: Victor Oladipo

AUDIO: Cody Zeller

127 comments

  1. IU has to be mentally tougher,guard play still a big issue ,not getting solid play on both ends of floor from VJ3 or Hulls …or “leadership” (in my Jim Mora voice) we talking “leadership”

  2. Humiliated tonight!! If im ctc im finally holding a press conference and putting the blame where it belongs on him! This Nebraska team is horrible and they beat us. I read on another blog that IU will be very emotional and kill PSU by 30. That made me laugh out loud!! Why is it every team we play gets WIDE open looks at 3’s? Please explain this to me. PSU, Minnesota, in the OSU game that kid no ones ever heard of had a career night from behind the arc and now Nebraska! Isn’t this something a coach can fix? I know for sure we won’t win another road game this year so if we don’t hold home court and finish 5-5 we will no doubt miss the tournament. I am truly shocked at how awful we have looked this month. I am not a flip flopper and have suppoted CTC since day one anyone who reads me on here knows this but anyone who’s not just a CTC homer has to admit that he has been the worst top 25 coach of the month at this point. Minnesota? Nebraska? These are losses that mediocre coaches can find ways to win. Im sure some CTC homers are going to try to prove me wrong just try not to look to dumb doing it. And please leave that “well no one expected us to do what we’ve done speech” because your dead wrong! Everyone expected us to make the NIt this season and if we finish B10 play 10-8 or 9-9 and unless anyone sees something I don’t that’s looks very much like what’s going to happen. We will miss the tourny. So that bs doesn’t fly anymore. Please hurry 2012 boys!!!

  3. Absolutely awful! You can’t play basketball with guards who can not move the ball, direct the flow, find the gaps and, on defense, are left flat footed every play…even by opponents’ mediocre guards. Just simply awful.

  4. HfKY, the reason we are giving up so many wide open 3’s is because we have inexplicably gone primarily to a 2-3 zone… No need for further analysis.

  5. Does the “Jordan” character from the live discussion ever show up here, or does he just say pointless crap all game on that chat room?

  6. Should have been really emotional after the loss to Minnesota period.This thing is going south in a hurry. Pretty much the losses to Minn and Nebraska stamp out the two bigs wins we had earlier. Uuuuggghh.

  7. It was a horribly sloppy and ill-managed game. But at the same time, if you would have told me at the beginning of the year IU would be in the Top 25 and have the court stormed on it after a loss, I would have scoffed thinking it incomprehensible.

    As a fan you can’t be happy with the last few losses after the promise this team showed earlier this season, but you still have to be happy with the season as a whole. A ranking and NCAA berth is likely more than most expected from the Hoosiers this season.

    Here’s hoping they can rebound from these losses and win three of the next four and finish strong.

  8. They had one guy who could hit shots.Oladipo guarded him and I counted 5 times Oladipo drifted from his man to help inside on a guy who wasn’t going to shoot only to see the ball kickd to his man who got a three.This is Oladipo and Crean’s fault.Our guard play is killing us.Can’t defend a team with one scorer,useless silly turnovers against a poor team.Just gave the game away at the end.Hulls was responsible for four breakdowns at the end.I have enjoyed watching this team but we have to admit we’re not very good.Where is the defensive activity that we had early in the season?

  9. You people LOVE them when they are up,,
    and crush them when they are down. Im sure the team is more upset about this loss than you.

  10. There guards were 6 for 18. 33%. our defense on them was not bad. We lost because we turned the ball over 14 times to their 9. Watford had 4,VO 3,Cody 2, and Will 2. Our bigger guys coughed up the ball too many times for us to win. They only shot 38% for the game.
    that is not bad defense over all.

  11. I said way back there and my mind has not changed. we had hired a “snake oil salesman”. The wins over ky. and ohio st. were due to the kids effort and not coaching. We have no offense we cross the center line and start pointing our finger where we want players to be,don’t we practce this. He runs up and down the sideline like a manic-depressive and I think just confuses the players. Another double digit lead lost in the last six minutes they don’t know how to finish a game. So all you experts outthere can jump on ole elmo,but I,ve been there and done that and this cat is not very good. I feel sorry for Zeller I think maybe he ought to get out of Dodge. So lay it on me.

  12. OUT COACHED,OUT PLAYED,NO KNOCK OUT PUNCH,NO DEFENSE!There is not much left,captian turnover now has a partner Hulls! We have no real guards and we now play little or no defense other than Zeller and Pritchard .I hope the coaches enjoyed the game as once again they sat there and let it happen! how about a time with some kind of a plan? The last 11 seconds were a joke,Hulls cannot take the ball inside effectively how many times have we had to see that?He gets stuffed everytime.He is a stand alone shooter and a good one but its became more apparent the last 3 games we have no fire as before and no desire to knock people out when the opportunity presents its self.In addition,Oladipo has become a game watcher instead of the leader he used to be,Watford continues to not play with any desire and has become a liabilty rather than a improving player,VJ3 continues to have firm grip on the worst senior in the big 10 that starts award.I have no problem with a loss if they compete but to just quit does not get it!If were going to lose anyway give some of the freshman a chance to play!
    I have been a Crean supporter from the beginning but he has to be better on the bench,I can,t beieve with all the assistants he has someone can,t come up with something!And in their defense maybe they have and the team doesn,get it!You cannot guard someone from ten feet away,Spenser from Nebraska was living the dream and we let him do it!We no longer play to win we play hoping not to lose!

  13. Seriously, do any of you think this team is a top ten team talent wise? I don’t. This team has been getting the most it possibly can out of thier talent and when they don’t, the fans go crazy. This team still has to get a ton of minutes from players that came to Indiana in a terrible situation, they aren’t the best talent, but they are our talent. Stop wishing for something they can’t be and appreciate the effort they are putting forth for IU. Indiana will get better, they are already better than I thought they would be this year. The program has made great strides forward this year, irregardless of last night’s results.

  14. They let this one get away, not doubt but I though Diaz fouled Zeller near the end of the game on that missed 3 by Nebraska.

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  17. Unbelievable last night. We are back sliding faster than anything I’ve ever seen before. Can we PLEASE get rid of the weave? I don’t see what it accomplishes…VO comes around a screen and has a lane to the hoop and yet we pass it on the perimeter. Has IU completed a pick & roll once this year? IU did get some back door cuts but way too few & then we force them. I thought CTC believed in dribble drive to work inside out. Haven’t seen it, don’t know that I’d recognize it if we have. For the love of god… go with Remy Abel or Etherington. Something please! If you always do what you always did, you’ll always get what you always got! That sums up IU basketball 2012. And I am an ardent supporter. It’s just hard to see IU lose to the likes of Minn & Nebr.

  18. I for one don’t understand the rush to push the ball up the court. With the talent we have (or lack thereof), we simply can’t pull it off. VJ3’s infectious turnoveritis has now spread to the other players, with poor judgement, sloppy passing, and too much dribbling. I see no cure in sight. Where was Remy Abell last night? Was he sick? Hurt? And how about that fast break 3-on-1 against a Nebraska guard where we pop out for a friggin’ rushed 3-pt attempt????? Losing faith in the coaching staff after these debacles (PSU, Minnesota, OSU and Nebraska).

  19. MonduJ1 – transition offense hides our weaknesses and give us a better chance to get quality attempts. It’s when we get in the half court we truly struggle. We don’t handle ball pressure well, we don’t execute the weave well, outside of Zeller we don’t have effective screeners, and we are below average at feeding the post, which means our best player struggles to get touches.

    Transition is by far our most effective offense. If you’d like to argue it give me some ebidrnce to support your opinion.

    Also that shot by Roth on the 3-on-1 was a GREAT look. He had just knocked down 2 consecutive 3’s and was wide open and in rhythm. It was definitely not rushed. Dipo’s other option running the left lane was Hulls who isn’t exactly a finisher. That was BY FAR the best decision Dipo could have made.

  20. Have to vent for a moment ( continue venting actually ). Tape all games – Watford got fouled twice by two different men at the 4 second mark which is the only reason the ball was deflected from his hands. Jordan – please hit your free throws when it really matters. Cody on the missed shot appreared to be pulled down while rebounding – actually he blocked out so well and had contact with his man – he fell almost on purpose assuming a foul would be called. VO left his man assuming Cody would jump up and grab the rebound. Deflection off the miss hits the floor – goes to VO’s man – layup. Cody should have just rebounded the ball naturally. Any – all of just one of these win the game.

    That said – grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!! You can’t lose this game. All or most of the bloggers here have hit on all the obvious personal – coaching – performance issues very well.

    I have to throw out this ugly deja vue thought. 3-4 years ago I’m sitting watching IU with my son ( only kid in KY that has 30+ IU items in his wardrobe – and always will ) – IU just knocked off Mich. St. over the weekend – we’re ranked about 6th – Monday comes – Sampson allegations – the 3-4 year nightmare occurs. It’s obviously different. But the same disgusting sickening feeling has overcome us in the last three games. Having hope and excitment taken away that is.

    I pray this boat gets righted. I persoanlly don’t think we overachieved in the big wins – we just played well and played to our capabilities. What happened after those big wins is that the opponeents have studied us and made adjusments to make the things we do well hard. We have not made counter adjustments to continue our success.

    In my day – when you lose 3 in a row ( 2 to teams that you are better than ) – you character would be tested. To quote RMK – “You f**kers will not embarrass me anymore or you’ll run so f***ing much you’ll wish you were dead”.
    Paraphrased.

    It’s time to stop the clapping – give a headbutt or two and tell them to get on the baseline for some sprints!!

    We can beat anybody in the country with the proper attitude – effort level and game plan.

    This season feels like we we’re on pace to set the Country Club record after nine holes and started the back nine with back to back four putts. I hope we can chip a few in from the bunker or fairway heading home.

  21. Geoff, Your post #19 sums up my observation to a tee as to how we have to compete to be successful. I am also starting to think a 3 guard offense for the personnel available is not the answer. Our D is suspect, we hurt on the boards, we do not block out well, we should get to the line earlier in the game, we do not defend the 3 well, defenses push our O out farther, we do not feed the post well and we do not penetrate well. I am inclined to think; pull Jones , make VO and Will 6th and 7th man, add Remy and Pritchard(he is a scoring threat from 4ft.) as starters, it brings the post out closer to receive the pass in even if guards get pushed out, adds bodies to block out and rebound, with 2 big wings the 3 is more easily defended, stronger interior D, kickouts to 2 good shooting guards increases, helps Hulls on both sides of the court, transition should still be potent because CZ runs so well, all possibly leads to 2 less TO’s a game and 2 more attempts at the line. Big if, DE would have to become reliable Backup at the 3-4-5 every game or if foul trouble occurs revert back to 3 guard game. Maybe this is a nightmare in the making but what is there to risk.

  22. IM sorry geoff but your wrong. Psu lit us up form 3 and we played man to man. Minn game same thing hit a season high and we did go zone last night (for whatever reason) but also got lit up in man to man. We are very soft and can’t fight through screens. We give up more 3’s than any team in the b10. That’s not because of a 2-3 zone which we rarely use! Bottom line until our coach gets this team to play defense we will lose games. Everything we do wrong is basic fundamentals. Rebounding, turnovers, missed free throws, leaving their feet on a head fake (which killed us last night) ect ect.. Isn’t this something that CTC can fix??

  23. Just getting a little of your own medicine. This team gets beat to a pulp by OSU and UK on a neutral site. Good luck in the NIT hopefully you can squirm your way to assembly hall and pick up a win

  24. There’s a psychological element involved in these recent losses. Let’s be honest, this team is not used to the success and notoriety they enjoyed over the last month.

    No team underestimates IU anymore. We’re not sneaking up on anyone any more. In fact, a team like NE gets pumped up to play a team that is ranked in the top 15. IU is going to get every team’s best effort. They obviously have not been ready to respond to that.

    Maybe the IU players were letting the team’s ranking go to their heads a bit and not understanding how it would provide an extra measure of motivation to opposing teams.

    “Your greatest risk of failure comes immediately after your greatest success.” It’s natural for people and teams that have achieved great success to relax a little bit, to stop doing all the little things they used to do when they were so driven to achieve a certain level of success. I think IU learned that lesson last night.

    This team is not “nasty” enough. They’re not “mean” enough. They need to develop a nastier attitude. I’m not advocating dirty or rough play, but a meaner mentality. When they get a team down, they need to be thinking about knocking them out. Right now, I see them more comfortable playing the roll of the underdog as compared to playing the roll of executioner.

    Whatever the variables are, they stunk up the floor last night. My, my, that was terrible. They should be a embarrassed. Time for some real hard conversations, coach.

  25. HfKY, you are remembering impressions, not facts. We started going to a lot of 2-3 in the MN game and have been spending a lot of time there since. Not the whole game by any means, but enough to skew 3-pt attempt stats.

    Fact – PSU did not light us up from 3… They went 7-23, which is 30% and I believe a great game plan. Less than 10 threes and less than one-third makes is NOT lighting us up. The standard for “good” 3-pt shooting is 40%…

    Fact – Minnesota shot 6-17 from 3, which is 35%… Still not good and they didn’t make a single one in the second half.

    Fact – Three point shooting wasn’t the issue against OSU. They basically got whatever they wanted, but even in what seemed like a night where everything was going for them they only went 6-15 from 3, finally a team hits the 40% mark.

    Fact – NE did not kill us from 3, hitting only 10-30 (33%). That’s a lot of made 3’s but it’s a team that doesn’t, and didn’t shoot well from the perimeter. They made some big shots down the stretch going 4-9 in the last ten minutes, but a lot of the shots were in transition, which is really hard to defend, others were a direct result of terrible refereeing that put IU at a defensive disadvantage (see my other post) and the others were contested. Going into the last ten minutes NE was 6-21 For a whopping 28%, so I’d say their defensive game plan was working.

    Feel free to give me some facts to back up your opinion…

  26. Fact- IU 2-29 on the road in big ten play under Crean. Only wins vs penn state. Get over the refs Geoff its the same home advantage in Bloomington as it is everywhere else.

  27. I have agood buddy up here named David Kole… There is also a well known child molester from the 80’s (somewhat public figure) named Dave Cole…

    Anyway… Not sure why you are bringing up the last 3 years… It literally is as irrelevant a set of data as you can possibly come up with.

    If you want to debate his road record, let’s take a look at how he did his 3 yrs in the Big East before he came to IU…. 11-13 in what was considered ever bit as tough a conference, including an overtime loss… Pretty respectable for a team not named Syracuse, Georgetown, or UConn.

    I understand, and have written about, the advantage the Hoosiers have gotten at home this year from the referees, when they got it. But even in the most obvious game – OSU upset – the refereeing Dow the stretch was not one sided in favor of the Hoosiers. In fact the refs made couple ridiculous calls against Zeller in the last ten minutes that fouled him out of the game. I realize the home team usually gets a slight advantage, but last night was absolutely THE PRIMARY FACTOR in the loss. Please see my breakdown of the last ten minutes in “The Slide Continues” comments and I’ll be happy to listen to your rebuttal.

  28. Geoff you can’t change anything about how the officials officiate, sorry that won’t help win games. Players and coaches win games, and in this case…lose games.

  29. Okayyyyyy….. I can’t change how coaches coach or players play either, but I can talk about and analyze all of it. There are 3 independent groups of people that have an effect on the outcome of games… The 2 teams and the refs. Go ahead and pretend that they don’t have a large impact if you choose…

  30. I don’t know Geoff…I don’t like everything transition. I’m not sure we have the speedsters and pure scorers that can get back when the bucket isn’t finding the bottom of the net.
    Will we wear down Cody too much? Remy could shorten up the court, but does he have enough PT already under his belt to be comfortable in a furious up-and-down pace? If Remy had seen more court time a month ago, I might be more confident with him being the added thrust in a transition game. It’s nearing a very important time in the season. Can indecision with personnel, unconditional loyalty that gives unwarranted minutes to one upperclassman, and the growing lack of continuity, confidence, and chemistry on the floor resultant of such decisions, cause such gross dysfunction to a point of no return? Even with successful analyzation the the best style of play for the length and skill sets our roster, do only subtle changes have the positive results in the heart of Big 10 season, when more aggressive manipulation of roles and PT weren’t addressed and implemented in mid-December?

    I’m not the expert here. Did Tom Crean run a lot of transition game at Marquette? Did he have guys with the lightning speed of Hulls, Roth, and Sheehey? Did he have a kid he would not sit down even though he was obviously draining the energy of his team and when urgency was required brought the ball up court like a toddler with poop in his shorts?

    This does look like last year in replay. The replay is too much time for the energy-drainer and the result is lack of continuity that will never happen as a result. It’s very disheartening. I sometimes wonder if we built the square peg of a Brad Stevens’ roster and our coach is trying to fit it into the round hole of Tom Izzo style of play…? Does our roster even work with what our coach was accustomed to running at Marquette?

    I wish I could believe running Cody and the Keystone ‘Slow White’ Cops up and down the court was the answer. I agree with hoosierfaninky..much of the problem is fundamentals..The fundamentals deteriorate when one misfiring piston is unaddressed. Next time my straight-five Fiat is running a little sluggish, I’ll take her into the shop and tell my mechanic to tune-up all but one cylinder.

    Nice post from Podunker. Confidence is the biggest impediment this team faces. There is no amount of talent and no tactical maneuver that can cure the sabotaging effect of leaving an extremely ineffective player in a “chosen one” role. Remy playing 10 seconds of the first half pretty much turns every positive thought to any solutions our problems into pointless blabber. The season grinds on and our Hoosiers experience the same nightmare in rerun, become exceedingly mentally drained, as there efforts are nullified by loyalty at the level of self-destruction.

  31. Harvard – its not realistic to think a team can or will be in transition all the time. Even UNLV and Arkansas played in the half court from time to time. I am simply pointing out that with this group that is how we are most effective, because of the things I outlined in #19… And it was in direct response to post #18.

    Crean’s thing at Marquette was a lot of interchangeable and athletic parts. They usually did have a true center, it was more like a true PG and 4 athletic wings. They definitely played up tempo, but of course they had their half court moments too.

    Furthermore, you are correct that the current offense is not the best fit for this group, but I don’t think Crean really cares. He is building his system and foundation for the future. He is recruiting more athletes and this system (he believes) will be best for the personnel he is able to recruit going forward. This offense is built for a line-up like:
    PG – Yogi
    SG – Dipo
    SF – Hollowell
    PF – Perea
    C – Zeller

    With guys coming off the bench like Abel, Patterson, Sheehey, Davis, etc.

    You need to be able to create and attack mismatches, and this group simply doesn’t have the athleticism to do it. It’s all part of the process.

  32. Road losses because of the refs happen every night and is just part of basketball. Good teams get stronger from that. This is not the case here. I just see a team and fans that got false hope from 2 of those homer wins and now coming off that high are showing what they are made of. Uk and Osu are to blame for those losses and will be better for it. All I see is excuses from this side. Thanks for the child molester reference btw

  33. Geoff- I’m saying ‘you’ as in IU and basketball players; they can’t do anything about the officials. I did not say “you” as in ‘Geoff who is posting thoughts on a message board’. The players and coaches can impact the game, they can make changes and do things smarter/better, the players/coaches can’t do anything about the calls they do/don’t get. Of course officials impact the game,we are aware. But you can go ahead and pretend that telling us all about it matters….

  34. Oh man our team is bad! 15-4… what kind of crap is that! I mean, when we were undefeated after beating kentucky we were doing well enough for people to at least think that we were going to have a bad year. But now we realize after losing three games in a row that this team is going to have a horrible year. The coaching staff should be fired before all those bad players from next year get here and make us even worse. Someone find Bobby Knight’s illegitimate colored son and get him down to Bloomington to help us out! You know what… scratch that. Someone take half of Bob Knight’s brain, put it on a cane and and stick that on the bench cause that thing would do a better job than a 15-4 record and a handful of garbage players for the recruiting class of 2012.

    This is absolutely pathetic. Any other team in the country can have a 10-5 season right now with a 4-game losing streak and I think they would be doing bad, but a 15-4 season with three losses IN A ROW?! What the heck?:( This is INDIANA UNIVERSITY and we cannot have more than ONE loss in a row (make sense? it does to me and rico chet!) Tom Crean is such a waste of space and obviously so because of the way he destroyed a pristine powerhouse like Marquette. Why didn’t we snag Coach K and then also grab Tom Izzo as a new assistant coach, and then also get Northwestern’s coach to be our ball boy?!

    I think I’m going to have to transfer to Ball State or Purdue now, because overall their programs (both academic and athletic) are far superior than the landfill they call IUB.

    …gotta remember to stop by Stone Belt on my way out of B-town to check up on rico chet and company.

  35. You’re the expert. I still feel this team has the elements to be a very tough opponent in the NCAA tournament. I still believe we have the roster to get there. I hate to see it thrown away because of unreasonable loyalty that stymies the growth and progression that was possible. A few weeks ago, we had enough to fight through the misfires of leaving a dysfunctional piece of the puzzle on the floor while other teams were working through their own early season adjustments..The energy of a home crowd also played a huge part in willing the team to victory.

    We all knew the problem coming down the road. This team is plenty capable of finishing in the top 3 or 4 of the Big 10 standings this year. Mismanagement of a lineup and improper delegation of leadership roles and playing time is the bigger problem. When I listen to our coach, I hear a very bright man that knows the game. I’m backing myself into a corner and best shut up. I said I wouldn’t tear kids down. I just despise injustice to others through such coddling and protection an unproductive member. Your team is a family and they should play together like one. The problem to me is his blind faith given and embraced by one that is favored over the natural evolution of a team. This is why we have stalled. This is the poison on the road when a home crowd can’t will us on.

  36. Can’t believe your argument was 11-13 like that sounds good no matter what conference…. This is iu not looking for below 500

  37. Take away Lew Alcindor, Bill Walton, et al, and John Wooden is Gene Keady.

    Take away Magic Johnson and Jud Heathcote never wins anything.

    Yeah, take away all those good players and those coaches suck. Do you realize how absurd the whole ‘take away D, Wade’ argument is?

    No, of course you don’t.

  38. ^that response was intended for Geoff.

    I’m done. Please, Mr. Crean, make the hard decisions. No amount of camouflage, or waiting for a “Movement” to fix our curable constipation, is worth flushing our wonderful early successes down the tube.

    Play the guys that have earned it..The 19 Fs, fires, and decimation did not make any singular player more deserving. It’s only the the unwavering fans of Indiana that deserve a loyalty of putting the best you have on the floor.

  39. Take away Steve Downing and Knight never meets up with Wooden and Walton. Take away the national attention our Cinderella run of the ’73 team and maybe Knight never gets the recruiting classes that led to ’75 and ’76. Take away a phone and Sampson is Big 10 Coach of the Year.

    Take away Zeller and Tom Crean is in the cellar of all cellars.

    Do the right thing…Play Remy!

  40. Only had dwade for 2 years…. Hasn’t had below 10 losses in any of the other years, one NCAA tournament victory outside those 2 yrs.

  41. Dr. Dopirak needs to give this thread a kole-onoscopy.

    I think Chet said something a while back about the only thing being predictable is unpredictability..Or was it Geoff?

    Things could turn on the dime with one big road win(@ Purdue or @ MSU?) and the Hoosiers could be running on all cylinders again come tournament time.

  42. 178-140 outside those 2 years…only 70% if u throw in those two. if I told you that was gonna be his record the next 11 years you happy with that as an iu fan? I don’t think he has recruited the one of the best players on the planet by accident recently

  43. I fail to see your point Kole…

    Crean is a great recruiter. So he is going to have great players. So he will probably win more when he has his best players. Funny how that works.

    Crean was 69-31 his 3 years that Marquette competed in the Big East…. All without DWade.

    Marquette doesn’t have the cache of IU, and are not nor have ever been, a Big East super power, so to have essentially a .500 record in their FIRST three years in that conference on the road is pretty damn good. Sorry if you can’t respect that.

    Oh, and included in that 178-140 record is his first two years when he was taking over the program, getting his recruits, and instituting his system. They went 30-28 then. So in the years that he actually had his players and had built his foundation, his record was 160-68. Over that same span IU was 140-85. Michigan State, the most consistent and dominant Big Ten team of the last 20 years was 157-77 over that span.

    I’d say Crean’s resume and record is just fine, you dipsh*t.

  44. Ahh how soon we forget firing mike Davis after a “pretty damn good” 19-12 season. Because that just isn’t good enough. He even took a less talented team than this one to the final

  45. Goeff, I don;t give a crap what his record was at Marquette, he’s not there any more I’m concerned about his record at I.U. You dipshi-t

  46. Elmo – are you concerned with, or do you even understand “context”?

    As soon as you want to have a debate within the proper perspective let me know… I’ll be right here.

  47. Geoff I don’t argue with stats so im going to assume you looked this up and are correct. I just remember hearing PSU and Minn had a season high fg% against us. Now I said one player from the OSU game who I think averaged 8 a game did go off for a career high and CTC admitted that our game plan was not to gaurd him tight. Now I know for a fact we ranked last in the b10 in opponents fg% points given up and assist so it’s obvious we don’t gaurd shooters well at all! During the first half of the Nebraska game they could not get anything in the paint almost everything they got from the outside which most were uncontested shots. I gave you an example of the wide open look at the end of the first half. When I watch this team play I see good inside Defense and horrible defense by our gaurds whom are normally gaurding shooters. Am I completely wrong here? Also I recall hearing by Jimmy Jackson and coach Williams numerous times on the btn tip off that IU needs to do a better jod contesting shots. show that

  48. @ hmmmmmm – so what about when players do do things correctly but instead of being rewarded they are penalized by poor refereeing….?

    Case in point:

    1) Watford makes a great offensive rebound tip in attempt but is whacked across the head and knocked down. No call, no FT’s, and other team gets a transition 3…

    2) Zeller fundamentally blocks someone out, but is dragged to the ground resulting in an offensive rebound and put-back. No, call, no FT’s, and other team scores.

    How do the players or coaches improve in those situations? Here’s the deal… I study the film and do the analysis. I let the facts speak for themselves. I provide perspective, when others try to get too high or low on the team.

    A month ago Harvard was giving me crap for being too negative about a 12-0 team… I was simply pointing out that there were some weaknesses and that we hadn’t really been consistently tested yet.

    Now I get crap for defending the team because I think they are performing better than people are giving them credit for. The outcomes aren’t the same as a month ago, but the tests are more consistently difficult, and the adversity is greater.

    IU did not play great last night… No question. But some people just don’t see the game and what’s happening. They get caught up in perception or bias, or who knows what… I heard several people bitch about IU’s 3-pt defense in last nights game. WHY? Nebraska was a crappy 3-Point shooting team and they shot crappy last night. I am sure that IU’s gameplan was to encourage those shots. NE was 10-30 from 3, I would take that all day when I was coaching. 33% shooting… Are you kidding me? IU held them to 38% shooting overall for the game! That is tremendous! Now do they have to improve boxing out – yes. Do they need to improve transition defense – sure. I am not saying that IU was stellar defensively, but some people just aren’t seeing reality.

    Offensively IU shot 51% from the floor! They shot 44% from 3! In the last 10 minutes they had 19 possessions, and on 12 of them they either scored, went to the FT line, got an uncontested shot, or got multiple shots. Those are all high quality possessions. That means only 7 low quality possessions – 3 TO’s and 4 contested misses. Thats basically a 2:1 ratio of quality offensive basketball.

    The things that IU did on the court generally are good enough to win a basketball game, however in the case of last night’s game the referees created scenarios that gave a distinct advantage to only one team. That’s how a tough, one point loss happens sometimes.

    I am providing a factual perspective because there are so many nincompoops on full tilt.

  49. HfKY – yeah my 3-pt stats are correct. PSU shot 46% FG for the game, which may be their season high, but if so that’s a bad season… For comparison that is what IU shoots from 3 for the entire season! IU’s issue wasn’t guarding the 3, it was points in the paint that hurt them. PSU was 20-36 from 2-pt range! That’s a whopping 56%…

    Minnesota shot 47% from the floor against us… Again thats not “great” by any stretch, and if it’s a season high… For comparison IU is shooting a better % for the entire season, than MN did in their best game.

    IU is not the worst 3-pt defense in the B1G, they have given up the 3rd most, but their opponents 3-pt FG is 35%, which is middle of he pack.

    However, their overall opponents FG % is worst in the B1G, meaning their 2-pt defense is terrible.

    Another one for you non-believers, through 7 B1G games IU has the 4th best points-per-possession and 4th best offensive efficiency rating in the conference.

    I see these things when I’m watching and then go to the stats to see if my perception is correct. I don’t look for stats and then form an opinion. The guys like Willams and Jackson are certainly smart dudes, but hey have to cover too many teams to do the type of in-depth analysis I do on IU. I can understand if you want to trust their views over mine though.

    Bottom line – the defense is bad, but not the 3-pt defense. It’s the defense inside the arc where we really get hurt. Not stopping dribble penetration, not having an enforcer in he paint, not allowing Cody to contest because we have no depth, not doing a good enough job boxing out…. These are the issues on defense. On offense we are actually pretty efficient, even in losses, and even if it doesn’t always look pretty.

  50. I am still not a CTC fan, poor down the stretch coaching. When the players do it on their own he looks good, when they need some coaching, they fall apart. Never seems to call a timeout at the right moment, like on the oponents big basket and the crowd is going nuts. Maybe he should watch the Izzo tapes to learn some things instead of his own.

  51. Great idea. Izzo’s team is on a 2 games losing streak of their own, including losing to a team we’ve already beaten, Michigan, and another loss to Northwestern.

  52. So what you’re trying to say is that you don’t understand statistics, how they are used, or why they are useful…

    If you ever want a lesson, and don’t feel like paying a couple grand for another class at IU or more likely Ivy Tech, then just shoot me an email and I’ll help you out.

  53. This is waaay of topic but I had previously posted about Appalachian State’s football program (arguably the best D1 FCS program out there) losing 3 assistants to perennially pathetic conference rival Western Carolina University. I just read this morning where, in the past 2 months, they have lost SEVEN assistant coaches including, now get this, 13 year running backs coach and SON OF THE HEAD COACH Chris Moore.

    There is something that isn’t passing the sniff test in Boone. I wonder when the other shoe will drop.

  54. Chet, we have a common interest in App State..I have visited campus a couple of times. IU has lost almost the same amount of coaches in the last year…

  55. Read it again, they lost seven coaches, including the HC’s son who had been there for thirteen years, in two months. Jerry Moore, the head coach, isn’t some new guy building a staff. He’s been there since 1989 and won three consecutive national championships in the past decade.

    It’s not even remotely like IU losing coaches on a new staff.

  56. Chet, I read it. What I will say is that your sniff test is no different than mine when multiple coaches left IU just days after Wilson hired them. Many found that strange and I did as well. Then with all the kids that KEEP leaving…my sniff test is going wild!!! That is it. No more no less. No harm, just wanted to point that out. TGIF, I am out!!!

  57. Geoff, I agree, I hear alot of complaining about our 3 point defense, even in the last game against Nebraska. However, stats tell a different story. Nebraska shot 10 for 30. Geez, I’ll take those 20 missed shots any day. That’s clearly not our biggest problem.

    I see Zeller coming over to help inside constantly. Why? Because someone got beat and let their man come inside. This is often due to our slow guards, Hulls and Jones, letting their man get by but at least this means they are shutting down the three. But there is another reason Zeller helps so much – because nobody else does. Often Jones and Watford are in a position to stop the penetration but instead they employ the matador defense and the man blows by them as they swipe in vain. Watford is really, really slow in his help side defense, and this doesn’t get brought up enough. He’s quick enough to get position for the rebound if there is one, so he does pretty well with defensive rebounds.

    I’d love to see Watford take more charges or at least stop the penetration inside. Jones too when he’s in the forward position.

  58. I’m a big fan of CWAT and he has a great skill set but I’m coming to realize just how slow he is. His first step is almost ponderous. Particularly if it is a lateral step.

  59. Remy is one answer,and obviously needs more minutes for his defense alone. I think Roth is more fundamentally sound on D than Jones. I constantly see him close out under control. His man rarely scores. A big issue is the lack of depth behind Cody… He can help, but he can’t really contest. Luckily he does a great job of moving his feet and staying vertical. I think next year will be a completely different story with more quickness at guard, and guys like Perea adjusting shots and Jurkin who can contest without having to worry about foul trouble.

  60. It’s interesting how Sheehey, Vic, and Remy were so widely blasted as not being Big Ten caliber talent when they were offered and now the same people (not referring to you, Geoff) who criticized their very recruitment are now calling them the answer to our problems.

    It’s kinda like the old story of the Buddist monk who, whenever someone would come to him insisting such and such would be the inevitable result from a current action simply replied, “We’ll see.”

  61. John and Jeff,
    You guys pretty much summed it up on those last two posts. Although a kickass record is probably gone, we can still have a kickass season. I’ve been on the Remy bandwagon for a while. If we keep doing the same thing, we are going to keep getting the same results.(blah, blah)
    Whatever this coaching staff does, I hope they 1. keeping building for the future. 2. Do whatever it takes to get the momentum back. 3. Keep working on thier FOCUS, passing crisply, spacing, and moving thier damn feet. 4. Get this team rolling again by the end of the season.

  62. Start Remy on Tim Frazier and let him defend him the 1st half at least. Shut down Frazier I don’t know if you play a 1-4 defense, with the 1 as a chaser {Remy} on Frazier.

  63. Geoff, I agree, I hear alot of complaining about our 3 point defense, even in the last game against Nebraska. However, stats tell a different story. Nebraska shot 10 for 30. Geez, I’ll take those 20 missed shots any day. That’s clearly not our biggest problem.

    Maybe I’m missing something, but why in hell does a stat showing a low 3-pt field goal percentage necessarily mean the 3-pt defense was good? Maybe the opposing team had wide-open looks, but just didn’t have a good night shooting the ball. I do remember the big three Nebraska hit when one of their guards kicked it to a trailer in transition..We weren’t back on defense and got burned.

    I do think diving into stats can be a bit of a trap(here comes the request for dropping an e-mail). I’m not saying you, Geoff. Please don’t condescend, tell me facts are facts, threaten to leave me out of a wife-swap or disinvite me from beers at Nick’s…I don’t give a crap if you can hula hoop through stat sites in your endless cyber-stat world that will give assumption a causation to support any theory that brings pimple-brained unsophisticated lovers of the game to their knees to honor your greatness.. You don’t need to tell me you’re the Obi-Wan Kenobi of Stat Wars.

    My lightsaber is from the ‘Dark Side’ where correlation equaling causation is sometimes questioned. Certain guys just don’t belong on the court! They can never break themselves from a one-on-one mentality…They never deliver the ball in a timely manner..They don’t have the skills to breakdown a defender..They force shots at inopportune moments …have terrible side-to-side speed…blame everyone on the court during breakdowns except themselves..don’t have good court vision..and then finally do something good by dribbling off their toe.

    There are deficiencies all over the map, but only the dribble off the toe, the occasional completely errant pass, or taking of steps will show up in the stat sheet.

    There is a loyalty to one specific Hoosier that goes way beyond the stats. Do we actually need Obi-Wan to war with the Death Star of Dark Stats before we see the evil in keeping him on the floor? Once or twice every six games this Hoosier decides to play within his skill set and involve teammates. The stats may be minus a turnover or two. He is perfectly aware he has manipulated himself into maintaining “the chosen one’ status and his coach to keep him in the starting lineup and not reduce significantly the minutes.

    Then you have a young kid like Remy…a true Jedi for the cause of unselfish determination and well-being his teammates..He does so many positive things on the floor not found in a stat sheet.

    -Gets into his defender
    -Has a bit of moxie(delivered some nice 3-pointers right off the bench..Has enough shot to keep a defender honest and the quickness to take him to the paint)
    -Has size to shoot over people…
    -Unselfish focus..plays within himself…
    -While getting into the paint, can actually get the ball to the rim instead of swatted away(Hulls size limits his success at getting the ball to the glass…And Jones? Should I go there, Obi-Wan? Should I talk about the low swooping underhand move with zero elevation that 99% of the time sees the ball sent into the seats? …God, I wish we had the stat on how many times that move has failed. How many more second chance points could we have if we just got the ball up on the glass for Cody? Is there a stat for Lost Second Chance Points?
    -Remy creates havoc on the inside and provides another legit rebounding force..
    -Keeps his head up and has instincts not teachable in terms of court vision.

    What happens when he turns the ball over or makes one freshman mistake? Is he given a chance to redeem or get into the flow of the game? Nope. Pine for the rest of a half… Back to “the chosen one.”

    Is there a stat for worst player in the history of IU that accumulated the most points? Correlation ≠ Causation

    Blasted Remy for not being Big 10 caliber talent? Dustin could easily disprove(I think he already did a month ago) this blogger was not in that camp. Harvard wanted to add Remy to the roster, before Crean gave the official offer. Why he offers him no playing time is what I’m trying to figure out.

  64. Final Thought: Starting lineups are mightily important in their symbolic perceptions the five consistently best performing players on the team. If you keep feeding a fallacy into the brain of one in the ‘five’ that is obviously absent the right of such designation, it puts into question the contribution of anyone on the court being recognized and valued with the eye of objectivity and fairness. I think that type of message can hurt the camaraderie on a team. Starting lineup decisions are very important. You can’t take individualism completely out of game. It’s a chance for an unselfish and talented kid to have a bit of deserved limelight and recognition to hear his/her name announced in front of thousands of fans and viewers before the tip-off of a game. It should be earned and not offered as charity or entitlement.

  65. >Maybe I’m missing something, but why in hell does a stat showing a low 3-pt field goal >percentage necessarily mean the 3-pt defense was good?

    Yes, you are missing something. Nobody said the 3-pt defense was “good”, just that it is far from our biggest problem. As coach, would you look at that game and say “Gee, we need to focus in practice on how to make them miss even more 3 pt shots”, or would you look at that game and focus on something else. Like all the unforced bad passes that led to turnovers that led to points. Or stopping the penetration into the lane. Or help side defense. Getting around screens. Rebounding. Whatever.

    Stats are a good unbiased guide as to what the team weaknesses are. Not the end-all be-all, but certainly useful when deciding on priorities. Sure, we’d like to work on every single aspect of the game every day, but time doesn’t permit that. It’s easy to fall into that trap of examining a play or two late in the game, but the game is 40 minutes long and mistakes happen the entire time.

    On the other topic, I strongly agree that changing the starting lineup is a good coaching tool to motivate players who do well/poorly in practice or recent games. I’m baffled as to why the player-who-must-not-be-named has always been a starter. Completely baffled. Combined with the fact that Remy doesn’t get more minutes, I can only assume that experience is Crean’s top factor in determining who plays (unless the situation is very clear, as in starting Zeller over Pritchard).

    Let’s not forget that Crean has several assistant coaches who advise him, and apparently there is a consensus on this topic that goes against much of the fan base. I’d like to think we fans are missing something that the experts can see, but I’ve tried and tried and still can’t figure out what redeeming quality is there to warrant all that playing time…

  66. wow, that was a load Harvard… I am pretty sure I agree with the second half of the first post. I will address the first half of that and then the second post:

    1. I would agree that a low 3-pt shooting % doesn’t necessarily correlate with good defense. But that isn’t my point. I believe that the defensive game plan was to encourage encourage 3-pt attempts vs. PSU, MN, and NE. All three of those teams are in the bottom half of the league in 3-pt%, and just aren’t good perimeter shooting teams. If teams aren’t good at doing something then you usually don’t have to be good defensively at shutting that down and you can concentrate your efforts in other areas. That, I believe, was the case in those games, and if it wasn’t it should have been. Unfortunately, they did not do a good job at all of defending inside the arc.

    The best time to get get clean 3-pt looks is in transition. Defenses are taught to run back, get in the paint, make sure the ball is stopped, and then recover to their men. There is often switching going on, and it’s easier for a shooter to get lost in the scramble. The other best time to get a good look at a 3 is after an offensive rebound, since defenders have turned their heads and gone towards the basket, creating space for shooters on the kick-out. No one is good at defending these types of looks… it’s not an IU thing.

    2. As a player I always thought it was more of a compliment and showing of trust to be playing at the end of games than to be starting them. Starting was nice and all, but there can be different reasons for line-ups. When I was coaching I always went with the 5 guys I trusted most down the stretch. But I know that not all players view it the same as I did/do.

  67. Harvard, once again I am in total agreement! If only “The Force” would gracefully intervene. Maybe the “Chosen One” needs a 2-3 months rest stemming from an untimely, non-threatening illness or injury.

  68. Leaving guys too unattended will burn you. Parity and very tough defense in the Big 10 may account for the low percentages in general. Take Indiana out of the 3-point percentage equation and there’s not extreme variance between most the conference in efficiency from outside. Only 1.8% separates Michigan State from Minnesota with a considerable chunk of season to go. And don’t we have to look at number of attempts and strength of opponents to look at variances on per game basis? Teams with athletic guards can penetrate and get the rim(often without the need for a kick-out to the perimeter. Fewer shots from the outside can contribute to less rhythm from the perimeter and lower percentages. If you are abusing teams on the inside or in other facets, the outside percentages may not rise until the focus changes and more attempts begin to accumulate. Give any shooter enough looks(unless they’re Jeremiah Rivers) and you’ll eventually pay.

    That wasn’t trust having you in at the end. Geoff…It was scrubs on the floor, mop-up time.

    You can sing the song, but we all know why a certain player keeps starting..It’s about an unwillingness to break a heart.

  69. Yeah, I knew that was coming….

    Harvard, if a guy… Sayyyyyy, Frazier. Went 1-6 from 3-pt land would you be happy with that? We gave him a bunch of looks, and eventually near the end, during the comeback, he hurt us and hit one… So your statement is true. But the game plan was to allow him to shoot 3’s because it isn’t a strength of his game. Same is true for these other teams… It wasn’t a strength going in, we game planned accordingly, these teams continued their subpar shooting against us, but unfortunately we didn’t defend inside the arc well.

    The coaches identified a weakness and exploited it. 3-pt defense was not the problem.

    Don’t make me say it another way, pleeeeeease…

  70. Geoff you are a book of senseless knowledge your basketball smarts leave a lot to be desired. You rattle on and must not have anything to do but jump in here and give us your two cents worth which is about all its worth.

  71. You’re gonna give us some specifics, right? Nobody in their right mind would post something like that unless they were gonna follow it up with specifics. They’d look like a fool.

  72. Good point Elmo. You have clearly dominated me in every post and every rebuttal. Not only are you Wooden-esque in your analysis, but your sense of humor is priceless. Please give us more because these 2 sentence nuggets just leave me yearning.

  73. By the way Elmo, posts like your last are what people write/say when they can’t make an actual argument or have nothing else to add to the discussion… It is the playground equivalent of, “oh yeah, we’ll you’re…. ugly.”

    Sweet comeback buddy.

  74. Geoff
    Friday, January 6, 2012 – 2:08 AM EST

    hmmm, should I keep it short? okay, yes I only have two things to say:

    1. Verdell Jones sucks. I don’t give a crap about his last second shot, he was the only reason Michigan was even in the damn game at the end.

    2. Dan Dakich either has cancer or a horrid cocaine habit. Did anyone else notice the green face and red eyes? It wasn’t my TV, the other guy Dave O’Brien looked fine.

    Do you agree with your own words or will you find another diversion into the studying of toothpicks without recognizing who the hell most often makes the mess by tossing them all over the floor? I love the statistics, Geoff, I really do. It just seems that you want to stand inches from a painting rather than step 40 feet back to enjoy the big picture. There is a beauty to basketball beyond the analytical. I’m a firm believer that two identical games could be played in terms of what you’ll find in the stat columns and the final canvas will change; many of the brush strokes never found are outside the realm of color and blotches.

    Now, my words:

    Certain guys just don’t belong on the court! They can never break themselves from a one-on-one mentality…They never deliver the ball in a timely manner..They don’t have the skills to breakdown a defender..They force shots at inopportune moments …have terrible side-to-side speed…blame everyone on the court during breakdowns except themselves..don’t have good court vision..and then finally do something good by dribbling off their toe.

    There are deficiencies all over the map, but only the dribble off the toe, the occasional completely errant pass, or taking of steps will show up in the stat sheet

    I tried to give you a painting, and you would rather condescend. It is my novice and highly dispensable opinion that the Hoosiers will struggle until they find a way to deal with the complexities of loyalty vs what is best for the team. Chet also briefly showed rare signs of agreement with me a month ago when he also thought it would be the most difficult issue for this team to get through. Didn’t you, Chet? Do I need to go searching for the post? Maybe your view has changed.

    It’s hard for me to eat a hundred peas for dinner and chop them into even smaller bits in analyzing a game when I don’t think the best options are on the floor. I really don’t care what our strategy was for eating what we had on the plate when we could have been served better. I want a good steak before I play with my peas. I go back to your post on January 6th…That pretty clearly states how you feel. Now you are dodging it because you choose to be positive again and dissect all the peas on your dinner plate. There is art in basketball. There is chemistry and moments of inspiration each player brings that intertwine and intersect far beyond what any of us see. I just feel a good starting point is for the Hoosiers to give a different guy a chance, start a new canvas, and see if passion will reignite into this team because I think their is more to it than what meets the eye or is found one inch in front of the painting.

    I also think you need to laugh a little more and don’t take challenges to your opinions so rebelliously. Here is some slow white guys and a black guy that sucks.

  75. Harvard…brilliant words, though I regret to think they will be lost in the vastness of space. Analysis has to begin with an image of what ‘beauty’ is. As the saying goes, I may not always be able to break down all (and each of)the components that make up a beautiful (and perfect) basketball game, but I know it when I see it.

    There is a beauty in imperfection. Enjoy the whole catastrophe, as Zorba the Greek would say.

  76. No, I still believe that ‘he who shall not be named’ is the biggest problem facing this team.

    The crazy part is, I’m convinced he’s decided he needs take over a game and put up 30 one night to prove all the critics wrong.

    …and that ain’t gonna happen. Not in a win, anyway.

  77. It’s hard for me to eat a hundred peas for dinner and chop them into even smaller bits in analyzing a game when I don’t think the best options are on the floor. [Plus] I really don’t care what our strategy was for eating what we had on the plate when we could have been served better. I want a good steak before I play with my peas. […]

    There is art in basketball. There is chemistry and moments of inspiration each player brings that intertwine and intersect far beyond what any of us see. I just feel a good starting point is for the Hoosiers to give a different guy a chance, start a new canvas, and see if passion will reignite into this team because I think [there] is more to it than what meets the eye […].

    Absolutely beautiful.

    No more green peas for me. I want a Cajun Rib-Eye Steak tomorrow with a touch of Remy. Mashed potatoes with rice for Geoff.

  78. That picture is hilarious. Don’t be so hard on Geoff. Everyone can enjoy the game in different ways. So many people are down on Jordy and point to his deficiencies but I LOVE the guy. I have no doubt he would play at 100% until his heart literally exploded. Sure, he missed a key free throw the other night but we were all sure he wouldn’t because he’s usually THE guy we want there. He NEVER takes a possession off and he’s willing to put it all on his shoulders even when he really can’t. Whereas, ‘he who cannot be named’ wants the ball and wants to take the shot, but he’ll still play half a$$ed.

    When you’ve played, or coached, a sport at a high level it just changes how you view it. Nothing wrong with that. His kid will be a point guard or a quarterback some day. That’s where those kids come from.

    I AM more of a full canvas guy, like Harvard. Poetry in motion. I like CTC’s style of ‘push, push, push, pass, pass, pass the ball’ up the floor (until it gets to…well…you know). Seeing Cody run the floor with three of the other four keeping their heads up looking to pass. It’s lovely. Watching guys that move with grace and intensity like Cody, Jordy, Remy, Will, Vic, and even Austin moves with fluidity. CWAt moves, but it’s not the same, ‘he who shall not be named’ looks like he’s in the cereal aisle looking for the Lucky Charms. Derek (I just gotta give the big guy some love) moves like Jason with a chain saw, he’s relentless and scary, but not graceful. Matt kinda stays in a 12ft area shifting around waiting to knock down a 30 footer. I love to see the opposing coach when he gets the ball and is remotely open. They freak out. Danny moves like a madman. He’s not much of a threat to score but he’s gonna age a defender following him run to every frickin’ spot on the floor.

    As much as I enjoyed the good years before things went south, the ‘motion offense’ could be brutal to watch when it wasn’t being done well. It was like the old ‘sausage being made’ metaphor. When it resulted in a win it was beautiful. When it didn’t it was like dance night at Shady Acres.

    It’s a fun team. They could have won a couple more but they damned sure could have lost a few more, too. Looking at the guys coming in as far as the eye can see we could be at the beginning of a very special time in IU basketball. Berate Tommy C. all you want. He has built a special team. He has brought in guys that we are all proud of. They all play with courage and never behave in a way that embarrasses us. Nor does Tommy. It’s a good time to be a Hoosier.

    BTW, UNC just lost their point guard to a torn ACL. They are a mess.

  79. Chet, quick correction…. UNC lost their SG, Dexter Strickland, not their PG Kendall Marshall. Marshall, who averages 9.5 assists is much more important to their success. They have a couple other guys that can slide into the 2-spot and shoot it well.

    Harvard – why are you trying to create controversy where there is none? You should know as well as any one my feelings on Jones. I practically led the campaign against him, while you were still in the “im going to stay positive, and I’m not gonna pile on Jones” mindset. I have also agreed with you about the issue of loyalty…

    I guess I just get sick of saying Verdell sucks every post. There are other things to talk about so I try to further the discussion.

    Do you honestly believe that I can’t see the big picture, or think that stats tell the whole story, or don’t take chemistry into account???

    I still feel the way I did on Jan. 6, I agree that they will “continue to struggle until they find a way to deal with the complexities of loyalty vs what is best for the team”, but I also think they’ll continue to struggle if they don’t address other things as well… Like defense inside the arc (not outside of it).

    So one more time… Jones sucks…. Please play Remy more.

    Harvard, if you could name your top 5 big picture issues with this team what would they be?
    1.
    2.
    3.
    4.
    5.

  80. As far as the whole toothpicks comment – do you really think that coaches don’t look at the details as well as the big picture. They have every stat broken down, every game broken down, every opponent broken down, post-game edits, pre-game edits, player strengths and weaknesses, and in-game adjustments, plus a thousand other pieces of minutiae…

    Sorry that that is the background I come from. I can’t just turn my brain off now that it is programmed to see more than the big picture. I’ve been the player taking instruction and direction based on this info. I’ve been the coach making these assessments and decisions. And I’ve been the assistant asked to watch countless hours of film to sniff out the patterns, strengths, weaknesses, trends, and other minutiae so the coach can make the decisions and give the direction to the players….

    What do you want me to do buddy?

  81. Truce Geoff,just like to pull people’s chains now and then,just remember this is not rocket science basketball is a very simple game, sometimes we try to make it more difficult than it is. More often than not we over coach rather then under coach.

  82. Geoff, Harvard for Hillbillies and Chet. Why don’t you guys exchange emails and turn the Chat Room over to the general public?

  83. BigDealTen, because its less fun. Also, there are plenty of times we post that aren’t aimed at each other. Also, there are times we post, where a portion is aimed at one another and a portion where it is aimed at the “general public.”. Also, there are times we are trying to make a larger point aimed at the general public within a post we are aiming at one another…

    Also, you can always skip over our posts and not read them.

    Also, you are welcome to post here whenever you want.

  84. I get all that Geoff. Why don’t you guys drop a line to your Sports Journalism prof’s and let them know you have generated enough for extra credit

    All of it fun I guess Is there another IU basketball chat room for additional perspective?

  85. Elmo, truce accepted, however I couldn’t agree less with the statement that “basketball is a simple game.”

    It’s a simple game at the lower levels, like elementery school, jr high, and JV. It’s starts to become a little more complex when you hit varsity. It becomes quite detailed when you get to college, and even more complicated when you are talking major D1 and pros.

    Heres an example:
    – In youth league you teach a kid defensive stance, and attempt help side vs on-ball.
    – In jr high you get into shell drills and proper close-out techniques – stay low, hand up, under control
    – In high school you teach your system – proper close-out with left hand high for right handed shooters and force players baseline into help (or however your team defense is set up)
    – in college you hope players have all that previous stuff down and you start to base your close-outs on opponent’s personnel and tendencies. ( ex: close out VJ3 and force him to his right hand since he shoots his pull-up better going left, but close out Roth forcing him left because he isn’t strong going left for more than one dribble and won’t hurt you on the drive)
    – in pros they base close-outs not only on personnel and tendencies, but spots on the floor and %’s (when Kobe’s on the right wing force him to the middle because he hits his fading baseline jumper at 47.8% and only hits his 18 foot 2-dribble pull-up going left at 44.3%, but at the top of the key we want to close-out and force him to his left every time because he turns the ball over 13% more going left and generally Fisher is on the right wing who is a better 3-pt shooter than Barnes or World Peace who are in the left corner, so we are better suited helping off them)

    Maybe you won’t understand all that, but the higher up you get the less simple it is and the more of a science. It doesn’t mean that there aren’t simple aspects and that those aren’t important too… But when you are splitting hairs when it comes to talent the team that is more prepared is almost always going to win, and the preparation is in the details (apparently next door to the devil).

  86. Big Deal – I’m sure you could find one, but your perspective is welcome here.

    Also, I think the three of us are all a little too old to go back to school for additional unnecessary degrees.

  87. Question for Elmo, or any other Crean detractors… How do you think CTC would do with a roster like Alabama’s?

    Serious question…it’s certainly a more athletic team than IU, with some considerably talented players. So I am curious about your opinions on this

  88. One day, maybe the five of us can meet in Bloomington, go down to the HPER building, and kick some frat rat butts in some five-on-five.

    Geoff- point guard
    Chet- shooting guard
    Tsao- center
    Harvard- power forward
    Elmo- small, giggly forward

    JPat- oxygen

    Not much time to chat today.
    Geoff, I’ll try to get back to you on answering the question of the “5 big picture issues.”

  89. Another question for anyone who has had a chance to see Yogi play some… Who would you compare him to in the current or recent college landscape?

    I have this picture of him being similar to Pierre Jackson of Baylor…

    Dustin or Ryan, I know you guys have gone out and scouted our recruits. What do you think?

  90. He reminds me a little of Zeke with the vision, propensity for passing but looks to score a little more. I doubt he yet has the handle we all remember IT had in college. He is also probably faster with good BB IQ. Both being near fearless with the ball in their hands. Been almost a year since I’ve seen him play but those skills stood out.

  91. Appling is damn good and is my choice as the #1 PG in the B10. In comparing the performances of both KA and YF next year I expect the biggest disparity will be the difference 2 years experience makes. Both are to be coveted.

  92. HC I guess I see that and I guess I have some push back regarding the second coming of Zeke. I try to learn from these posts. Can Zeller move to power forward next year in ready for the NBA?

  93. No doubt big shoes to fill. YF still has talent that he needs to polish into strong skills. Which he must do, do to his 6’0″ frame. That is why he has become more aggressive on offense this year. But the Q was who does he most remind me of in current or recent times. My answer is no one. The type of play he and Isiah possess is not easily copied. I have to go back to IT’s era to find those similar skills. I think Zeller can plan about any future he presumes. If he would wait till after his Jr. year his stock I would think will be pushed skyward.

  94. Yogi will be a kid in a candy store next year. Considering the style CTC would prefer to play I think there’s a good chance of seeing the guys on SportsCenter a lot.

  95. Not that he needs to but I think we may get to have Cody for 4 years. Just a feeling I get. I think he enjoys college ball and the NBA’s not going anywhere.

  96. Chet I buy that considering his brothers went for the full college experience. Does Roth have a 5th year and how does that impact the one over scholarship amount?

  97. Geoff I graduated from I.U.,even played there a little,coached through Central and Southern Indiana in some of the largest high schools in the state with some measure of success. You adopt you style and methods to the talent you have. I always felt you should play the best five players you have,Cream seems to avoid this, my observations of his subbing makes no sense whats so ever, 18 and 20 year old kids don;t get tired that easily, remember when you were that age we could play all day. I just don’t think he handles game situations very well, and at times does things I don’t understand, like playing Moore before Remy if everyone left the floor Moore couldn’t score. Well I’ve ranted enough you all have a good day.

  98. What do we make of OSU doubling-up on Nebraska? Wow. How on earth did we not dispose of that team?

    Here’s my list, Geoff.

    1. No power forward. Next year’s athletes(primarily Perea)on the inside will take a ton of pressure off the guards. Yogi will look like an All-American and be the benefactor of a team playing much more above the rim.

    2. Speed under control. Main reason I’d like to see more of Remy. He gives us added close-out speed on the defensive end and better ball control during possessions. There’s no urgency in Jones. Hulls is pressured by very athletic defenders and has no counterpart that could provide quickness to relieve some of that pressure. When we go at a faster pace, the ball control becomes an issue. Oladipo has advanced beyond my expectations, but he still has issues with control. Yogi will make Hulls exponentially better because of the injection of speed under control.

    3. Chemistry/Continuity. I love Sheehey, but I don’t think we handled the change in the rotations very well. I’m not sure how to fix this if our coach is not going to bend on delegating substantial minutes to you know who. I would rather see a little more experimentation with the starting five.

    4. No “in-your-face” swagger. We need to play with more emotion and aggressiveness on the road. Where is the team that was at NC State? Even with poor 3-pt. shooting teams, Id like to see aggressive defense on the perimeter during certain sequences. Does this team ever trap? Maybe that goes back to speed issues..Do we have the athletes to trap on defense.

    5. No real ‘go-to’ guy. I’m not talking about the ‘big man on campus’..I’m talking superstar. The guy with NBA potential that can work almost any quadrant of the court. Hulls has ice in his veins and has delivered on numerous clutch shots, but he’s no Eric Gordon. It’s the size and explosiveness we are absent. We need a guy that can get the ball to the rim through three defenders in a must scenario. We are loaded with 3 and 4-star talent, but we really don’t have a kid that can put the game on his shoulders. It’s very hard in the Big 10 for that to be an inside player. I think it has to come from the guard position.
    How many close contests could we get over the top with one addition to our five that most defenses don’t have an answer for? No team has to worry about double teaming any of our guards. Our forwards aren’t that strong enough around the baseline to take attention off Cody.

    These are not necessarily in order of importance. They have nothing to do with game planning and coaching issues(outside of the continuity/chemistry problem). I probably believe #3 and #5 may be the areas that are causing the most struggle. I threw this together quickly, so please be kind. I’m very fragile.

  99. Our forwards aren’t strong enough around the baseline to take attention off Cody.

    Remember how Landon Turner could work the baseline?

  100. Elmo, a few things…

    – don’t you think “best” is subjective? also what if you’re 5 best players are all guards?
    – I don’t understand Crean’s subbing patterns all the time either, but he does play my 5 perceived best players together a lot, not enough for me, but a lot.
    – when I was 18 or 30 I could play all day long – if we’re playing pick-up… But there is no way I could play with the defensive intensity my coach demanded at the college level for more than about an 8-10 minute stretch. A better example is Dipo, who is in tremendous shape, but asks for subs about every 6-8 minutes of game time. I honestly do not believe that a team that plays man defense can get away with not subbing to a) keep players fresh, and b) keep the pressure on.

    As far as adapting your style to the talent you have… Yes and no. I don’t know if you are trying to insinuate that Crean is not doing this, but at the college level I completely disagree – you recruit talent to fit your style and methods. In HS I only agree to a certain point. Yeah, you can’t (usually) recruit at the HS level so you may have to change it up a little every couple years to fit your personnel, but the best coaches I have seen have control of the entire school program all the way down into the youth leagues. They will influence the styles and methods that are taught long before the players reach the HS and are directly under his control. So the best coaches I know have “programs” that rarely change in style of play over the course of a decade even, because the personnel is so well schooled in that system.

  101. Harvard, I like your list… First off though, OSU is just that good. They are also really good front runners, and I have a feeling that NE will fold if they don’t have the belief that we (and the refs) gave them in that game.

    I’ll take it easy on you…

    1. No PF – yep it’s a pretty serious issue, compounded by the fact that we have no athleticism and length backing Cody up. So basically we have one anchor, who is somewhat hand-cuffed on defensive aggressiveness because we can’t afford to have him in foul trouble.

    2. Speed under control – I totally agree, although I think that Sheehey plays fast but under control, so that should be mentioned .

    3. Chemistry/continuity – I obviously agree that Jones should play less and Abel, Roth and Sheehey should play more. However, I disagree that the Sheehey situation wasn’t handled well… When he went down with an injury we won 4 of 5 games, including OSU and UM. Since he’s come back he has been on a minute restriction, so it’s a little tougher to get a good substitution flow – they are hand-cuffed.

    4. No Swagger – we had the athleticism and length to pressure lessor teams early in the season, but outside of Dipo and Abel we definitely don’t have the personnel to play aggressive perimeter D. I think trapping would only compound our issues, creating situations where Cody would have to protect the rim even more and opening him to more fouling scenarios.

    5. No Go-To Guy – not sure this changes next year either, by your definition. Although we may be able to surround Yogi with shooters and scorers and just allow him to create. My big question is was Gary Harris that guy? Can Patterson or Hollowell be that guy in a couple years?

    Unfortunately, no I can’t remember Landon Turner’s Baseline game. It’s just beyond my cognitive grasp.

    On a personal note, spent last night at a hold’em fundraiser for Westbrook Boosters and won the 60 person tournament! I play quite a bit, and occasional tourneys, maybe one a month or so, and I consistently make the final table, but I’m usually less aggressive and therefore short-stacked that late, so I’ve never won one. Almost paid my mortgage last night!

    Ok, off to a men’s league game. Go IU, we’ll chat again after this destruction of PSU (and the Pats destruction of the Ravens).

  102. Geoff-

    I think you somewhat misunderstood my #3.. By saying that we didn’t handle the change in rotations very well, I was referring to the players, not the coaching. Though Sheehey is a promising and developing player, we were looking more like a unit during the stretch he was out. The winning 5 of 6 during his absence was exactly the reinforcement of the point I was making. We didn’t handle his coming back into the lineup because of the breaking of a chemistry that was just beginning to develop. Though we gained another option in his return, we were once again suffering in the areas of flow and continuity.

    I think the first half of the Penn State game is more evidence of a team that just doesn’t look on the same page. Zero minutes for Remy and almost an entire first half of PT for Jones. There is a point when I’ll lose faith in that type of decision making. It’s hard to watch when I know we have a better defender that give us equal offensive threat not getting minutes. And my goodness, did you see the air ball Sheehey chucked up with no defender near him? Ouch.

    Roth, Elston, and Pritchard..all coming into the game before Remy. I don’t understand it.

  103. And is anyone else sick of hearing about paterno? The guys a criminal and didn’t do anything but cover up a molester and allow him to strike again. Can’t believe the big ten network is doing a special about him later…. Disgrace

  104. Geoff totally disagree with your thought”s about playing 6 or 8 minutes and need a rest if they can’t do any more than that they are not in SHAPE. mOST GREAT I.U. TEAMS never went much deeper than seven, nor Duke or Kentucky and on and on. By the way did Remy pass away?

  105. Elmo, sorry man but you are completely whacked if you think that Dipo can expend the type of energy he does o. Defense and still be effective in minutes 8, 9, 10, +… It’s just ridiculous. And the fact that he asks for a sub means he isn’t in good shape? You are out of your mind.

    I am not saying you have to go deep into your bench. 7 or 8 man rotation is fine, but in order to keep up defensive pressure you have to rotate those guys and keep them fresh.

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