IU falls late at Madison, 57-50

MADISON, Wis. — Since indiana’s Kohl Center losing streak began in 2000 some very good teams have failed to win in Madison. including five that reached the NCAA Tournament. Before Thursday night, none of the current Hoosiers had ever come within nine points of a win here, and the seniors lost their first two by more than 25.

But even though there was significantly less shame in Thursday’s defeat, this one hurt them worse, because this one they could have had.

The No. 16 Hoosiers played at No. 25 Wisconsin’s typically grinding pace and matched the slow, but efficient Badgers for just about 39 minutes, never getting behind by more than two possessions. However, the Badgers got three critical offensive rebounds in the game’s final minute and hit six free throws to pull away with a 57-50 victory in front of 17,230.
The Hoosiers (16-5 overall, 4-5 in the Big Ten) still haven’t won in Madison since Jan. 25, 1998, a string of 11 straight defeats

“A couple of rebounds here and there, a couple stops and we’re walking away up six, up five,” senior guard Verdell Jones III said. “But unfortunately we didn’t get those stops or those rebounds, so we got the ‘L.’ … It’s very frustrating. This is my last go around here at Madison. That’s the most frustrating thing about it, not getting a chance to beat them. Hopefully we get a chance again down the road to really get them.”

The Hoosiers won’t get that chance until at least the Big Ten Tournament — there is no game in Bloomington this year — and this one slipped away despite the fact that they were able to play at Wisconsin’s tempo, which is the slowest in Division I.

Few possessions means little margin for error, and the Hoosiers didn’t make very many. They shot 50 percent from the first half and a healthy 45.7 percent from the game against the conference’s best defense. Jones was 6-for-7 from the field in the first half and finished with 12 points while junior forward Christian Watford also had 12.

Fifty points represents a season-low for a team that came in averaging a Big Ten high 79.8, and the Hoosiers wanted to play a little faster, but Indiana coach Tom Crean was mostly satisfied with that, and the Hoosiers held Wisconsin to 39.6 percent (19-for-48). After an ugly start to the Big Ten season on defense, it was the third straight game in which the Hoosiers held an opponent under 40 percent shooting.

“We answered the bell on the pace of play,” Crean said. “They’re gonna play at a snail’s pace. That’s what they do. You’ve gotta steal possessions.”

The Hoosiers also kept Wisconsin All-American senior guard Jordan Taylor from beating them. He finished with just 10 points and two assists on 5-for-14 shooting and was just 1-for-4 from the field in the second half. Sophomore guard Ben Brust hit three 3-poitners for 13 points, but no one else was really able to beat them from the field.

The foul line, though, was a different story. Wisconsin shot 15-for-19 from the line while Indiana was just 5-for-10. Indiana was whistled for 18 fouls to Wisconsin’s 10 in what appeared to be a physical game on both sides. Wisconsin junior forward Ryan Evans scored eight of his 12 points on free throws and junior forward Mike Brusewitz got four of his 10 at the line.

Asked about the free throw disparity, Crean refused to touch the subject.

“I’m not going anywhere with that,” he said. “Don’t even. Please. Watch the tape. I’m not going to get into any of that stuff.”

The fouls kept freshman forward Cody Zeller off the floor for most of the game. Zeller drew his fourth foul with 5:21 left in the game and Crean didn’t feel comfortable bringing him back on until the 1-minute mark. He finished 2-for-7 from the field with just seven points and three rebounds.

“We had to buy our time as much as possible,” Crean said. “There was no real reason to believe that he was able to going to be able to get really into a flow where he could play significant minutes at the end. We just played it by feel as much as we could.”

Even without him, the Hoosiers were able to hang for the most part. They led by as many as six points in the first half, took a lead with 5:39 to go on a 3-pointer by Watford and didn’t let Wisconsin pull away when they did get the lead. Watford missed two big free throws with 2:28 to go, but redeemed himself with a steal and a pull-up jumper on the next possession to cut Wisconsin’s 51-48 lead to 51-50.

But on the next possession, Brust got his own rebound on a misssd 3, then Evans grabbed a rebound and drew a foul from Indiana’s Jordan Hulls, making two free throws to make it 53-50.
Zeller re-entered the game then and missed a hook shot on the other end. After a missed 3-pointer by Taylor, Brusewitz tossed Zeller to the ground, and grabbed another offensive rebound.

Watford had to foul him with the shot clock off, and Brusewitz made two more free throws to make it 55-50.

Indiana junior guard Matt Roth missed a 3-pointer with six seconds left, Evans grabbed a rebound and hit two more foul shots for the final tally.

“It’s a contact sport at the end,” Crean said. “We struggled getting those balls. They (didn’t). When a game is that tight and is that competitive between two teams, it comes down to just a couple of things. Their offensive rebounds were those things.”

And the reason the Kohl Center losing streak continues for another year.

AUDIO: Tom Crean

AUDIO: Christian Watford

AUDIO: Verdell Jones


  1. This was Verdell’s best game of the season so I’ll give him credit for that. I’m not sure there was a meaningful game all season where I thought he was a net benefit (pros outweighed the cons) to the team until tonight. I’ll take two stupid turnovers like he had tonight as long as he shoots 6 for 10. I even think he should have stayed in longer in the first half…

    That’s another thing. Wisconsin had 3 players play 36 or more minutes (Taylor played 39!). Why don’t our best players or the hot hand of the night ever play that many minutes?

    Well, we shut down Jordan Taylor pretty well at least.

  2. Yes I thought we did a good job of stepping out on the high picks and keeping a man between him and the basket.

  3. That flying superman dunk by Zeller should definitely go on the season highlight reel. Dang, that made me remember how Sheehey got fouled on his dunk attempt but no call…

  4. Having Zeller on the bench with 4 minutes to go killed our rebounding down the stretch, coach saying he didn’t think Zeller would be able to get into the flow at the end makes no sence? What we needed was a rebound down the stretch with less than a 4 minutes to go! With Zeller on the bench at the end, it was apparent we were unable to grab a rebound when we needed it! As physical as the game was, we were outcoached down the stretch due to Zeller being on the bench when the game was on the line. You have to take a chance with him on the floor with 4 fouls when rebounding a Wisconsin miss was so important. If he fouls out, he fouls out! Since he was on the bench when the game was on the line, we will never know if he would have picked up his 5th foul.

  5. OK im prepared for the heat that im going to recieve. First off before the Crean haters come out you can’t ask him to rebound or hit free throws (pretty sure that’s illigal) Every game we have 1 of 3 sometimes all 3 players who just kill us. VJ, Hulls and Watford. Now VJ was nice for one half Hulls was ok the whole game except some typical defensive lapses which we’ve all come to expect but Watford has had 3 or 4 bad games in a row!! At around the 6 minute mark in the second half I told my little cousin I would give him 5 to 1 odds that we lose the game (he’s seen enough of our last 5 minute meltdowns not to go anywhere near that bet) I saw this game slipping away because of one player. Watford! He was getting killed on the glass which were resulting in 3 or 4 second chance buckets.Ryan had his guy attacking Watford on every possesion. Not to mention the horrible free throws. Now for an average IU fan to know with 100% certainty that with 6 minutes to play in the game and I think we were only down 2 points to think that we will lose is very abnormal. I asked a friend of mine who’s a UL fan if he ever felt that way about the cards and he said never. Something is very wrong with that! I know no one had a great game but not everyone cost us the game. The sad part is to VJ and Watford this is a win! They are looking for a pat on the back considering the last few years. Some players are simply ok with just competing and until we rid our team of these guys what you see is what you get! When you are 500 in B10 play and are clearly the better team you have to find a way to win this game. Now let’s hear how hard it is to win at the kohl center and how awful the refs were and make every excuse for losing with a very talanted team. The time for Watford to step up has passed. There’s no way he can be a #2 consistantly for this team and that’s sad. Fact- we will win one more road game the rest of the season and sqeek into the ncaa tournament and for a team with this type of talent and as far as im concerned great coaching that in itself is sad. Crucify me now for saying what 75% of IU fans I know believe (and I know alot)

  6. Big CTC guy but for him not to show any concern about the poor rebouding which cost us the game really bothers me! I wonder what other coaches would have said? He needs about 10% Bob Knight in him!

  7. Mike, I already agreed with you on another thread, but I’ll agree with you again on this thread. I feel the same way. I think Wisconsin got the last 7 rebounds, incl. 3 offensive. We could have used our big 7 footer then, plus he is a scoring threat inside which opens up our shooting from the outside.

  8. Why not have both Zeller AND Watford in to get those rebounds? They are both starters, after all. Watford had too many big bodies to block out by himself.

  9. “We had to buy our time as much as possible,” Crean said walking a politically correct tight-rope to avoid saying he was thinking Zeller would be quickly called for another foul.

    If that’s not speculation I don’t know what is. Regardless of what he was thinking he has to get him in there sooner. Mike said it best if he fouls out he fouls out. If you don’t want to bring him back with five min left what’s wrong with 4? 3? 2? Or start rotating him in and out offensive and defensive possessions. He’s our best player for gods sake

  10. Out coached,out played last 4 minutes!How can you not have Zeller on the floor at the end of the game? He is all we have and he sits on the bench the last three minutes to watch us tank!I wonder what he is thinking?What would Brad Stevens do? Who in the hell was wearing the number 12 jersey in the first half? I was able to identify him in the second half by the 3 uncontested fall downs and zero defense!Outstanding defense on Taylor!This Wisconson team is beatable and once again we let it get away in the last 4 minutes.I would expect that kind of coaching from Mike Davis.If you are going to beat me ,beat me with my best guys on the floor!Maybe they were thinking if Cody fouls out that would be two more points we would be behind?Because they hit theyre free throws in the clutch,unlike IU.We also had many blown layups that could have changed the outcome.How can you be 6’9 and not dunk the ball? I Agree we got hosed on the fouls,but its the big ten on the road get over it!It was like watching a seventh grade dribblefest all night!Bo Ryan was watching every time out to see if Zeller was coming in.Not to worry!Sorry to whine but we have 3 big ten losses that should not have happened!Iowa will not be intimated Sunday,it is a must win! We have the talent where is the swagger!

  11. Crean was not outcoached.he had them prepared to get good shots.we rolled to the basket and got repeated open looks.We could not go all the way to the basket as we couldn’t get a call when they fouled us at the rim!That being said crean has to stand up and complain about the calls they get year after year.They had 2 turnovers 30 minutes into the game.Nobody takes care of the ball that well.you can’t let them have a reputation as a team who doesn’t foul.Meanwhile your all-american is called for 2 rebounding fouls.Get in the refs face.complain after,prepare for not getting screwed up there every year.You want your players to fight,show a little fight yourself.It is Creans responsibility to put a stop to this BS.

  12. Heinsohn I agree Let Zeller foul out and go ahead Crean get kicked out of the game. You guy’s are becoming a doormat.

  13. Remy In for a short time. He got picked and lost his guy, who was wide open{Taylor}. But he did go after a loose ball and 2 Wis players bounced off of him. He came up with the ball. Tough

  14. No true point guard = collapse down the stretch. Hard to fix something that’s broken when you don’t have the tool needed.

  15. HOOSIERPLUS, I think your observation pretty much summed it up. Remy is a great physical talent but he still gets lost in the flow. It’ll come. He’ll be a really good player, I think. In all likelihood he knows the situation perfectly well. I’d bet he knows he’s not ready and he’s working on it.

    That’s my guess but that’s all it is.

  16. Ranking BIG coaches: (1)Izzo;(2)Carmody;(3)Ryan;(4)Matta);(5)Beilein……….. (12) Crean. Enough said.

  17. The difference in this team in the Big Ten is lost productivity from VO and WS on offense period!
    If they could score and play like they did in the pre Big Ten season we would have won most of these games. They were 2-10 last night with only 4 points. Do the math and stats and you will clearly see what has happened. Then had in Watford and Jones’ poor play and it is going to be tough to win. When the game was in the 30’s Jones lost his man for 3 easy buckets, had a TO and lost the ball off the dribble trying to do to much. You guys can talk all you want about Hulls’s poor defense because he is not gifted at 6′ but if you watch Jones is much worse at 6’5″. He is the weakest guy with the ball I have ever seen play or coached. Sure he scored last night but he gave it right back to them. He is what he is and Coach is going to play him no matter what. So that is why we have to look at VO and WS for more points and rebounds. There center was all over Cody but Cody got all the fouls. What homer refs!!!!!

  18. IU played a good game last night at a tough venue. But, the Big Ten has to do something about its refs. They were terrible last night… as they have been all year. Very inconsistent… they call touch fouls… they don’t call hard fouls… they miss obvious calls. Terrible… something has to be done. The Big Ten cannot be satisfied or allow this to continue. They need to shake up the refs and get better talent in soon.

  19. Carmody is the second best coach in the Big Ten? (sucking in breath) Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha! Thank you for the laugh. I feel much better now. He has taken to Northwestern to the NCAA tournament more than I count.

  20. I wonder how the likes of Valentine, Rucker, Burt, Hightower, and probably a few others feel when they watch one of their favorite teams play, and the officials are cheating them out of a legitimate chance to win the game. This applies to all the homecooking in all the conferences. There should be some kind of consequences for either being incompentent as an official, or out and out cheating for the home team.
    Just my opinion.

  21. IU fans are hilarious in their criticism of CTC. Going into the season it was, “We won’t win 14 games this year. CTC is terrible.”

    Now, it all likelihood we’re looking at a 20+ win season and a trip to the Big Dance and IU fans will be bemoaning, “We should have made it to the Final Four this year. CTC is terrible.”


  22. 1) CTC will be remembered as one of the great coaches of Indiana along with McCracken and Knight. Yes I’m that old. 2) I thought the season was a sucess with beating Kentucky. Ohio State win was dessert and a win over Purdue will be the cherry on top. These kids are playing their hearts out. I wish Rivers (from last year could have played with these guys. He also had “heart”.

  23. Why is Oladipo on the bench so much? I think he’s losing his confidence. Where is the
    reward system? Crean plays favorites, esp. with Jones, and it is creating tension on
    this team.
    Why keep Zeller out at the end of the game so he won’t get another foul? What good is
    he doing on the bench?

  24. Not picking my spot very well, granted. When I’m hearing
    Jim Irsay saying ” Keep things in house” referring to Peyton’s response to change at the Colts Camp. How many
    other NFL Owners have a Twitter account and wear emotion
    on their sleeve, then hit send. Mixed messages. Not mis communication, just saying something you can’t take back.

    Where I’m trying to go with this, is that Coach Crean comes out and says “a player {Remy} will play a big factor in what we do in Wis this week.” Ok,
    maybe the flow of the game does not call for Remy’s assistance.
    But the Coach starts to look like no real game plan, oh no let’s abandon this offensive or defensive approach.
    Recruits look in and maybe think does he mean what he says?

    Chet I think you said it well that Crean and Abel maybe understand the development process. It’s ok that I don’t.

    Without starting a new comment box, I will keep moving.
    Watford was mentioned as a NBA prospect. The way he is playing he won’t make the draft or come out of the NBA D League. His arms got pinned at his side on rebound position when he bothers to fight for position.

    Vic non existent You should really understand you and Cody are the real Leaders. Show up flat we are done.

    Verdell way to go and stay out of the game at the same time. Total wash out. I’m not saying he does’t use chismbop to keep track of his mistakes on the court, but every positive leads to… well. If he ever fouls out
    the opposing crowd will chant as he goes back to our bench. Right, two steps back and to the left, Right,
    left back, left back……..

    Coach Crean If your brother in laws have some time maybe
    have them speak to the team before the game, at halftime
    and then after the game. Maybe even time outs.

    Assistant Coaches I know there is a regiment and culture
    among the staff. Somebody have an out of body experience
    and coach in the moment. Vic coming off the court and getting a pat on the back and later he goes in and still
    plays flat. ??????

    Refs Ref Valentine is the “SINGING BUSH” and IU
    Coaching Staff are Steve Martin, Marty Short and Chevy Chase….. Falling on deaf ears http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yNV-GXoeCM

    Sorry to take the lyrics approach from Jim Irsay’s Twitter Account

  25. Does everyone think we are gonna make the tournament? Seriously? I thought we would for sure no doubt 2 weeks ago but I just don’t know anymore. Kentucky and Ohio state wins don’t have credibility with anyone anymore because we can’t prove that we have a team that can compete/ win outside of Bloomington. I have no idea how we won those games, and it seems so long ago

  26. It sure will be next year year to bring Hanner off the bench to replace watford or zeller instead of pritch or elston. I think he will really help our rebounding effort in games like last night.

  27. karen, you state that it “is creating tension on this team.”

    Would you care to support that statement with some facts or are you just throwing out a line of bull$hit?

  28. Chet, you were a little hard on Karen. That is the way she sees it and I value that opinion. Maybe she has insider info and maybe not. I have friends that feel the same way she does while I don’t really agree with the whole tension thing. Chill man and tgif!!!

  29. Hoosierplus, Lou Watson (1966-69 & 1970-71) and Jerry Oliver (1969-70, while Watson was out with health issues) between Branch McCracken and Bobby Knight. Most of that time was mediocrity, although Watson did have two winning years. Watson was a good recruiter and a good guy, but a poor coach on the court. He wasn’t missed when he left.

  30. Chet, Geoff and HC I address you three because I think you all followed most of the games and I am aware of most of your posts. My thought.
    In the 1st half I think we brought everyone to the free throw line, being spread out to both wings. Hulls handled the ball and started some movement, whether it was picks or breaking to the basket. Hull’s happen to see an opening and went to move to a 12ft or so jumper. Hull’s had a good look and hit. I don’t if anything was to develop off of that offensive formation, outside of Hull’s breaking free. Starting the offense in that formation seemed to start moving players to different areas of attack.

    It was used once , as I remember and correct me if my recall is bad. Anyway It moved people off the block
    and made larger WISC players have to move to cover Cody, instead of leaning on him, holding him……
    We have seen Cody drive from the wing and create.
    I’m saying we play right back into teams after showing a variation that works. I don’t think it occurs to try again. Your comments or viewpoints?

  31. IUGRAD I think I remeber teams getting to THE DANCE with 17 wins. The BIG TEN strength and the IU FAN traveling following will help us get into the NCAA’S.

  32. No JPat, you’re off base. She didn’t say ‘I think’ or ‘maybe’ or ‘it seems to me’ or “my feelings on this”. What she said was, “it IS creating tension on this team.” As the players say that they are all very close and have great team chemistry she is calling them liars

    Have all the opinions you want. Share impressions or read tea leaves to your heart’s content. Even post your feelings. When you state “it IS creating tension on this team” you are claiming it to be a FACT. When you make the kind of claim karen did you damn sure better expect to be challenged to back it up. JPat, if you have some FACTS (and PUH-LEEEZE spare us any more rumors)to support karen then by all means be a gentleman and step up to her defense. But don’t lower yourself to her level by defending her stating her feelings as facts.

    So I’ll take this opportunity to ask her again, would you care to support that statement with some facts or are you just throwing out a line of bull$hit?

    I’m calling bull$hit on that one.

  33. Lou Watson trivia. At one time he was the coach at Jeffersonville High School. Among his Red Devil players was one Cotton Nash who would go on to set all the Wildcat scoring records until Dan Issel broke them.

  34. Chet, you went from being a nice guy from the NC area that talked about his love for his kids and their varsity college sports…I just loved reading your stuff…and now you go back and forth with people and I think it is sad. Honestly, I had my wife read you a couple of times as I can tell you are a family man! The blog has changed you for sure. You are a completely different poster than you were the first few months you came on here. It started to change me but I took a break, thank GOD!!! Read again my post…I actually disagree that the tension thing is there. All I am saying is let this person have their opinion…I mean you seem to have one on all topics, right? She never said it was fact…the reader who is you took it that way. You are wrong but that is my opinion. again, tgif…heading to Indy for Super Bowl festivities!!

  35. Karen-

    Next time you post on a Hoosier blog, use this disclaimer provide by the law offices of Engel & Eline.

    The following is opinion..You may find declarative statements instead of sentences introduced with inferences(e.g. “I feel”..”In my opinion”…”It almost seems”…”It appears”…”One would think”…”It’s possible”..”said 4guards to Chet’s lovely wife”). Please do not conclude such absences any postulational introductions or summations to statements in the following post make it necessarily factual in nature; merely conjecture and opinion based on observations a potentially bias point of view, through one observer’s filter his/her on set of assumptions, admittedly exists.

  36. The following is opinion..You may find declarative statements instead of sentences introduced with inferences(e.g. “I feel”..”In my opinion”…”It almost seems”…”It appears”…”One would think”…”It’s possible”..”said 4guards to Chet’s lovely wife”). Please do not conclude such absences any postulational introductions or summations to statements in the following post make it necessarily factual in nature; merely conjecture and opinion based on observations a potentially bias point of view, through one observer’s filter his/her on set of assumptions, admittedly exists.


    One of our most pivotal Big 10 games of the year. We don’t get the Badgers back in Bloomington and this game was very winnable. Jones put up good box score numbers in the first half, but it felt like watching the same VJ from three years ago when he would control nearly every possession in making himself leading man in our B-rate movie with no supporting actors. It was the same movie he starred in when he came back into the lineup after our most efficient stretch of basketball last season(Illinois, MSU, Minn). There is no need for that anymore. We all realize he’s got more game than Kobe Bryant, but there’s a point when not getting other guys involved will create standing, poor positioning, forgone opportunities to get opposing bigs in foul trouble by losing focus on our primary threat on the inside, etc..

    Outside of OSU and MSU, I don’t think we’re playing any better teams than we saw when the Hoosiers were making it look easy back in December. What we are seeing is the erosion of chemistry and a return of stagnancy due to too many touches for Virus Jones x 3.

    After a heartbreaking loss, the slipping through fingers the opportunity for this team to gain confidence on the road in a very tough environment, the final image I take from the game is the camera showing VJ with a big fat glowing smile on his face for Bo Ryan. And then I hear garbage about how hard the team is taking the loss in the locker room? One guy was taking it hard because he didn’t put up the same numbers in his second scene as he did in the first half ..The rest of the team was taking it in same old zombie-mode fashion their usual roles from movies past years because they see their is no cure; early season goals beyond their own selfish pursuits are looking more out of reach and all the potential a special season is regressing back into lazy theatre. You can get over losses. You can’t get over sabotage on the hardwood and the sinking feeling in the gut that nothing will change tomorrow. Our coach is planning for the future while the play of a “chosen one” is impeding the present.

    If Jones keeps getting his 30 minutes per game, then I’m afraid the party is over. I have a hard time watching a team be drained of their vigor and hope. Bad enough the same old Kohl Center circus show of clowns dressed in stripes handing our chance for victory over to Ringmaster Ryan…But then to watch our ‘go-to Virus’ blow kisses to him and get all Bo-nerish on him? We look spinelessly infected and the bigger clown.


    No problem. It did seem like some of the opening sequences showed hints of a working offense. Geoff is the coach. He could probably give you better explanation to what was going on in the offensive sets.

    Overall, I think the team played hard and showed a lot of grit defensively. They did their best to play through some very poor officiating. Cody and Elston had some really nice looking moves to the goal..Despite the keeping pace on the scoreboard, I honestly felt early on that the game was heading south when it became the VJ show. In typical fashion, he got into too high a gear in the second half and other guys never got into a rhythm.

    Pulling splinters out of Remy’s butt with only 4 minutes to go seemed like a very strange move. VJ was pulled with only three fouls in favor of an ice-cold freshman while the game was in precarious balance? I don’t give a rat’s ass how much talent/potential the kid has, that’s just far from ideal an introduction into a very important game that is going down to the wire.

  38. J. Pat and Karen you have riled up the cookie monster. Chet he is all knowing he’s the only one on here who has the facts and to be perfectly honest he is full of you know what. So Karen you post what you want we’ ll just ignore Mr. Know It All. HE REALLY LIKES TO HEAR FROM ME,i THINK i STUCK THE NEEDLE IN A LITTLE TO FAR.

  39. HoosierPlus – I remember a few distinct times they went to that 4-high offense. They seem to go to it most often when Roth is in the game. It gives him a chance to screen and then run off multiple screens, forcing switches or a difficult chase. Besides the time you mentioned in the first half they got a couple scores late in the game with it – the Jordy floater and the Roth FT-area jumper. Part of me wishes I hadn’t of erased the game immediately after so I could give a more thorough analysis, but its probably on ESPN3 if I need it… Anyhoo, I wanted to avoid wathcing the latest reffing fiasco and going into a brain-numbing diatribe.

    One thing that was quite obvious to me last night (that I’ve been bitching about all season) is how much better spacing Wisc gives to their post players for an entry pass and post move. They almost always enter from the 2-side and have 3 guys opposite… whereas we tend to try to enter the ball from the wing with a player standing in the ball-side corner whose defender is always cutting down passing angles and entry opportunities. I am hoping that we see a little more 4-high, with Cody ending up alone on the ball-side… and a little less 3-man weave and high ball-screening.

  40. why we lost: Watford/Zeller combo- 50 mins, 6 rebounds….weak
    Oladipo/Sheehey combo- 45 mins, 4 pts…weak

  41. Disclaimer per Harvard
    The following is opinion..You may find declarative statements instead of sentences introduced with inferences(e.g. “I feel”..”In my opinion”…”It almost seems”…”It appears”…”One would think”…”It’s possible”..”said 4guards to Chet’s lovely wife”). Please do not conclude such absences any postulational introductions or summations to statements in the following post make it necessarily factual in nature; merely conjecture and opinion based on observations a potentially bias point of view, through one observer’s filter his/her on set of assumptions, admittedly exists.


    I agree with Chet. Karen said, “and it is creating tension on this team” and I read that as stating a fact and not just opinion. We’re all entitled to our own opinions but not our own facts. Everything we’ve seen and heard from this team to date seems to indicate that tension is not being created. So, I join Chet in asking Karen to support that statement with some facts or restate it as opinion. Making false accusations about the coach just to get in a dig doesn’t do anything for meaningful or enjoyable discussions on this blog, or for our team.

    BTW, I thought IU played very good last night. Coach Crean had a great game plan and the players executed it fairly well. If the game had been played on a neutral court IU would have won by 6+ points.

  42. Thanks Harvard Yeah the VJ show. When he makes a play and scores, I can’t bounce out of my seat, because I know the other shoe will drop. I know it’s a sad outlook, but there seems no way around it.

    I will look for Geoff’s comments.

  43. CTC plus VJ111 plus refs plus weak bench equals loss at Wisconsin. IU is only good when Oladipo,Sheehey and Roth are good which means less playing time for the protected 3.

  44. coachv Partaking the fake turf that will be used on the new baseball infield. Very respectfully bogarting


  45. She didn’t even capitalize the first letter of her name. This could indicate a slight apprehensiveness, a shyness, a bit of fear to get on here with the big boys like Chet. I doubt she meant anymore harm than JPat. Did Chet really have to treat her like that pimple-faced teenager that rammed the back of his motorcycle? She may be crying. She may have no friends. Maybe a first year at college and having a hard time fitting in..Maybe she wanted to act like most on blogs, pretend to be a big jerk, stir a bit of noise, to just try and belong somewhere. Very harsh world. This should be a place all are welcome. I doubt she’ll ever return and I think that could be a travesty. There could have been love found..4guards could have come back and finely discovered his soul mate Instead, doors were slammed and hearts forever unfilled remain lonely and lost.

  46. Man, did i read that correctly? JPat is having his wife read Chet’s posts in an effort to play Scoop psychologist? This is getting out of hand! (and really funny,too!) settle down everyone, it’s just a message board, not General Hospital. Have you seen how nasty people treat each other in other forums? The Scoop is waaay waaay more well behaved.

    Reading JPat’s depiction of Chet”s supposed tragic fall from grace….that’s “true Hollywood Story” material right there. Chet’s a bit of a chetterbox, but he’s the same nice family guy as always. He was right on in demanding rumor to be separated from facts about team chemistry.

  47. I spend so much time on Scoop, my wife used to think I was having an affair with Chet. I need more karens on the blog.

  48. Not that there would be anything wrong with having an affair with Chet….though Geoff is more my type.

  49. Are there actually people that get mad at blog postings? I frequently read things that make me laugh and, from time to time, others that make me shake my head but it’s hard to imagine someone being so emotionally invested in an anonymous blog that it could stir anger.

    Harvard, it wasn’t an affair, it was one time and you swore you’d never tell anyone. We all have needs.

  50. What happened to you, Chet? Used to be such an honest family man; now you’re just Newt Gingrich and Larry Craig rolled into one.

  51. HOOSIERPLUS, I defer to Geoff’s analysis of the offensive sets but I concur with his opinion regarding their implementation.

    JPat, “The blog has changed you for sure”, was one of those posts I was talking about that made me laugh. I just called bull$hit on karen’s post because it was defaming and demeaning to the players. People will engage in all kinds of bad behavior when they think they will go unchallenged.
    Enjoy Indy this weekend. Sounds like a blast. I’ve never been in a city while it was hosting a Super Bowl. I guess the closest I ever came was being in Vancouver, BC, last summer the day of the 7th game of the Stanley Cup. It was a lot of fun.

  52. I take it you didn’t go to the post- game party down on Robson St. They had more than their share if fun down there, didnt they? Canuck fans are surely a “special” bunch.

  53. I love this blog!! …even more with a bit more distance. It is soooo entertaining…!

    Chet’s right (though I can’t get too moved by Karen’s post since I don’t think I’ve read her opinions before and assumed she had read the ruckus over facts, rumors, innuendo and speculation/poison pens.

    Now…Karen’s first sentence was: ‘Why is Oladipo on the bench so much? I think he’s losing his confidence. Where is the reward system?” While the crescendo grows in tone, it is followed by question marks, clarifying an interrogative. (one point, escape. Karen)

    But then she states, while clearly having a target in her cross-hairs: “Crean plays favorites, esp. with Jones, and it is creating tension on this team.” Oops, clearly declarative sentence, with specific purpose.” (tries a take-down and a pin-move but ends up in the bottom and is almost pinned herself. (Chet. two points take down + 3 near-pin (total 5 points + 1 point riding time= 6), Karen goes for the sideline and is given an escape when Chet let’s go (1 point Karen). Score Chet 6- Karen 2. Got to watch your own weight distribution and balance when you are attacking Karen.

    “Why keep Zeller out at the end of the game so he won’t get another foul? What good is he doing on the bench?” (Karen feints an attack near the edge but jumps out of bounds when she sees Chet counter. Allows clock to run out. Final 6-2 Chet.

    Chet simply says what is on his mind and is usually correct. I do find a consistency in him that I do not see in most bloggers. Sometimes I like it, sometimes not…but it is always honest and straight-forward.

  54. A fan on Hoosier Hoopsta took the time to record the high number of short term
    substitutions in the second half of several games. One has to believe this practice
    takes momentum away and does not allow any one unit to gain a flow!
    WISC 9 IU 17
    MSU 14 IU 26
    NEB 19 IU 18

  55. Wow, karen. A lot of blogging energy was expended wondering whether or not you would address the issue of being called on the carpet for pushing unsubstantiated innuendo. Instead of substantiating previous rumors that you tried to get going you ignored it all and just tried to stir the pot some more. I doubt even JPat will come to your defense at this point.

    You’ve lost all credibility here. Even when you use all caps.

  56. Chet, I have blogged here exactly twice and certainly don’t have the time or interest
    to delve into your ulterior motives which might break down your proof of innuendo vs. what
    I accept from a long time fan on Hoopsta.
    I will stick with those who are able to look at all sides of things so that all can
    participate without negative judgment. You enjoy running things here.

    I didn’t “address the issue”? You blogged that little piece of trivia 7 minutes after my post.
    I don’t live on the web as you do, so will leave you with my best wishes.

  57. Chet, might want to revisit your terminology, to much mentioning anything energy even if it is of the blogging nature otherwise Washington will be throwing money at it.

  58. The all-caps bothers me…it’s like screaming to be heard. The substitution patterns Karen raises, it does answer a question I’ve had for some time (I did not count them, but it is an interesting question) about their frequency and whether it interrupts ‘team rythm’ or whether it may be counter-productive. That question, in my opinion, does make for an interesting blogging debate.

  59. The whole ‘I’ll throw this out here and see if it gains traction’ thing without responding to any questioning just kills all credibility as far as I’m concerned. Make any claims you want, just have the integrity to support them.

    …and karen. I worked very hard to have my lifestyle but you’d probably kill to have it. I just have the luxury to play around on the web whenever I want.

  60. Karen, you can’t be that sensitive. Chet raised a valid point on the separation between critiques and innuendos that don’t serve anyone. Your inclusion of valid facts (in your comment #67) serves and adds to the discussion (I believe that Chet agrees with that as well, though I can not speak for him).

    But we have had a number of previous discussions about legitimate critiques and those that can harm decent people, whether we are 5-20 or 20-5. We would hate to lose your contributions; and, if you decide to stay with us we will not only be grateful, we will also continue to be passionate in agreement or disagreement. I think that;s what we enjoy about this blog…it sort of becomes the kind of ‘bar’ discussion about our beloved Hoosiers we we all enjoy. Stay with us and…get bruised with us.

  61. I am not sensitive, but do not deserve and shall not accept a pompous retort assuming
    one is superior to me, as Chet has. I enjoy learning from blogs and am happy to back
    up what I can prove, or preface it as you suggest. I was unaware this was an immediate requirement when stating
    an observation. But I am not one who enjoys ingratiating people who throw out
    challenges and insults, as Chet does, rather than encouraging discussion.

    It is clear from what I have read in the last 2 days that most on this site are friendly
    and willing to question without dismissing. And most don’t seem to enjoy deprecating one’s
    credibility or opinions as does Chet.
    So, I thank those of you who welcomed me, but I will leave you to rely on Chet to
    approve of all opinions as I go to a board where open discussion and analysis of the
    Hoosiers exists in a respectful state.
    Enjoy. I will not visit again and understand now why so many do not.

  62. I feel this home game on Sunday against Iowa is very critical for this team moving forward. Another home conference loss against a team we should be favored over, could mean a real bad conference record at the end of the year and put IU on the bubble.

  63. This is bubblewatch.coms breakdown of the NCAA tournament for the big 10 as of 1-21. I don’t know much about the site but I can’t say I disagree with the assessment. Doesn’t bode well for us that we have lost to two of the four teams on the bubble below us. Makes pursue look like a must win for us the way things are going.

    Big Ten

    Locks: Ohio State, Michigan State, Illinois, Michigan

    Near Locks: Indiana (15-4, 3-4 RPI 23)

    Bubble: Wisconsin (15-5, 4-3 RPI 39); Northwestern (12-6, 2-4 RPI 34); Purdue (14-5, 4-2 RPI 47); Minnesota (14-5, 2-4 RPI 49) 

    Treading Water: None

  64. We are in meat and potatoes of the Big 10 season(9 games in with 9 left). Take a snapshot of these standings and see you in 4 weeks. Outside of OSU and MSU, I think there will be a lot musical chairs going on. Most of the top teams have their biggest challenges ahead(many have hardly touched the surface against OSU and MSU).
    Another positive: The Hoosiers may have the best road schedule remaining of all teams still in the hunt for 3rd, 4th, and 5th place in the standings. We only have two games left with teams currently occupying the top four slots in the standings(@Mich on 2/1 and MSU in Assembly on 2/28). Gotta think five teams will make it to the Dance. I guess Dustin is never going to put the Big 10 standings on Scoop, so here is the snapshot going into this weekend.

    Big Ten

    Team W-L Tot. W-L

    Ohio St. 6-2 18-3
    Michigan St. 6-2 17-4
    Michigan 6-2 16-5
    Wisconsin 6-3 17-5
    Illinois 4-3 15-5
    Purdue 4-4 14-7
    Indiana 4-5 16-5
    Minnesota 3-5 15-6
    Iowa 3-5 11-10
    Nebraska 3-6 11-9
    Northwestern 2-5 12-7
    Penn St. 2-7 10-12

    IU road games remaining: @Michigan, @Purdue, @Iowa, @Minnesota.

    Win only one of these four road games, and we leave uncertainty in the equation regarding an NCAA berth.
    If we can secure anything .500 or above in those four road games, then I think we have earned the right to dance. Never want to look too far ahead, but we truly need a statement road win. That should have been Wisconsin on Thursday night. I think the @Michigan game(Feb 1) could be the night the postseason tournament hopes hinge on. Much bigger game for Indiana than it will be for Michigan. We need to beat an upper tier team twice..Michigan has a lot of momentum and putting a stop to their recent success could provide the confidence boost for a Hoosier team searching for a reenergizing, breakthrough moment.

  65. karen-

    You are being too hard on Chet. None of us are infallible. He’ll have your back if you just give him a chance. He’s open-minded and will always be behind the Hoosiers..That said, he is far from a pollyannaish fan and provides an objective and honest viewpoint on all topics. He’s intelligent and has a great sense of humor. You’ll miss out on some rewarding discussion, opportunities to have a kindness returned when you reach out, and share in interesting stories beyond basketball, if you shut the door in anger instead of opening your heart. I long ago judged Chet too quickly. Give him only your honest voice and he’ll prove just how polar opposite your assumptions are taking you.

  66. IU Substitution

    In that there is no flow to the substitution reaction in an IU basketball game, as stated by many on this blog.
    Do you think it has something to do with recruiting image?
    The recruits are told that the playing time is spread around and the IU staff needs to show evidence of that regardless of need or situation. I know the focus is to win the game, but it does not correlate to these game strategies ….

    Fresh legs
    Different schemes
    Get stronger as the game goes on.
    Build the bench for later Tournament Time
    Game Dictates

    This notion can be dismissed, but I’m really looking for discussion on these past substitution patterns
    Just Random or is there a strategy?

  67. Harvard- I understand that what I put up is not the end of the season and there it a ton of basketball left. I apreciate your glass half full attitude towards this but I just think I’m am seeing a downward trend here. I know it’s possible we can win two of those four road games. What have you seen that would give you any indication that we can beat anyone outside assembly hall that has a pulse? For whatever reason we aren’t the same team on the road. It’s out of our comfort zone. No one on the team thinks we are supposed to win these games. It’s a different mentality on the road and we haven’t figured it out. Whatever it is we need to figure it out quick! ( see disclaimer)

  68. Karen I agree with you 100% don’t worry about Chet…he is just hoping the heat tape work’s under his trailer so his water pipe’s don’t freeze.

  69. Come on people. We can win one road game, or even ZERO of them, and as long as we take care of business at home, we will be in the tournament. We already have a high profile road win in our non-conference schedule, and the wins over OSU, Mich, and UK aren’t going away.

  70. We are in the tournament. When it’s close, the gate keepers want money. IU has a pent up demand to follow their team thru the regionals. We will show up big time.
    We win 17 games we are in the show. Maybe not a great seed , but who cares it depends on if we are on that day.

  71. Had a ball in Indy, really did. I have to say that I will not go back as the lines to do everything were ok last night but will only get worse. I appreciate the opportunity to take mny wife and kids to this once in a lifetime experience. The cars lined up 500 style and the huge numeral logo are an absolute must see in person. Here is to hoping Zeller does not get into foul trouble this weekend. I must say I notice almost everyone gets along on the blog when the wins are plentiful but the negative is always stirred a lot when the losing comes. This has been an entertaining read. Cheers!!!

  72. I’m actually pretty intrigued by this substitution discussion, but other than the stats that Karen gave us I can’t find anything out there… None of the big sports sites’ play-by-play links show substitutions, and I put a general question out and didn’t get much from the search engines. So does anyone (Karen) know where I can get this information. My wife apparently erased my dvr’d Minnesota game which I really wanted to see.

    HoosierPlus – I don’t want to make any judgements until I see some actual numbers. I know that my feeling within games has never been “wow, what’s up with all this subbing”.. I’ve thought, “why is VJ3 still in?” and “where is Remy?”, but I’ve never really had an overt feeling about a flow being disrupted.

    So please Karen or anyone else let me know where I can get some substantiated substitution numbers and I’ll try to do my part to analyze..

  73. I searched every thread on Hoosier Hoopsta that was written or has a post dated after the OSU game (1/15) and can’t find anything on substitution patterns or stats. Karen can you throw the link up so I can take a look at what that poster wrote?


  74. I had anticipated a couple of years ago that as higher caliber talent arrived the subbing frequency would slow down. From this vantage point I am inclined to think it has picked up. If that is the reality then over the next 2-4 years IU players will need bar code tattoos for the scorekeeper as they fly by his scanner.

  75. Ok, I found my resource! The official IU site has box scores that include substitutions…

    I will give a more through breakdown later, but just an initial thought. Each game needs to be held in the proper perspective. I took a look at the Minn game when we had 36 substitutions in the second half (not 38 as previously reported. You shouldn’t count a change in the line-up coming out of half time as a real substitution). Just to keep things real, IU made 16 substitutions in the first 19 minutes of the half and 20 substitutions in the last minute when they were switching offense for defense on every foul.

    And it’s hard to knock that strategy since they went from down 9 with 1:11 to go, to losing by 3 with a last second possession for the tie (ending in a Watford TO).

    So more analysis to follow, but I am not sure I will disagree with Crean on this one.

  76. Goeff, Since you are polite, I will suggest you go to Hoosier Hoopsta and read the thread
    “Another road loss”. There are currently 10 posts, and “parrots” introduced the
    sub. pattern. I believe the 7th post, by Cheyenmann, will reveal an ability to track
    the last several minutes second by second. Perhaps he (he developed the site) would
    be willing to share. But don’t tell Chet. He’ll try to find some way to denigrate the
    stats. 🙂

  77. The last minute of sub. taking place against Min. actually has to be considered very good coaching by Crean or there likely would have been no chance. So the queries should be, (A)is there to much subbing, (B)the timing or (C)are the wrong personnel removed and added?

  78. Thanks Karen… Found it. Now I’ll give it my analysis here and see what people think…

    MSU game – first loss

    – MSU subbed 20 times in first half and 14 times in the second half, with 0 in the last 2 minutes, for a total of 34 substitutions.

    – IU subbed 9 times in the first half and 26 times in the second half, with 12 of those coming in the last 2 minutes, for a total of 35 subs.

    Notes: Crean made one 4-player sub with about 6 minutes to go in the first half which concluded in IU cutting the lead in half, from 14 to 7, going into halftime. Both teams subbed the exact same number of times during the first 18 minutes of the second half, but Crean because they were behind and in foul trouble had to sub offense for defense in the last 2 minutes.

    Conclusion: subbing pattern had nothing to do with the flow or outcome of the game. If anything, you could say that the only effect for IU was a positive one, since they went on that run at the end of the first half directly following a mass substitution. For the first 38 minutes of the game MSU made 34 subs compared to IU’s 23…

  79. karen, I won’t denigrate your stats if you won’t denigrate our players again with unsubstantiated rumors. They didn’t do anything to deserve it.

    Welcome to the Scoop. I really do mean that. The more the merrier. I know that you are new here but we’ve been down the road of posting baseless rumors just cast people in a bad light. Whenever you do that here someone will call on it. You can count on it. As someone wrote previously, you can have your own opinions but you can’t have your own facts.

    Post away.

  80. Minnesota game – loss #2

    – Minnesota subs 11 times in first half and 18 times in second half, with 6 of those coming in the last minute, for a total of 29 substitutions.

    – IU subs 15 times in first half and 36 times in the second, with 20 of those coming in the last 1:11 seconds, for a total of 51 subs.

    1st Half: IU was in the lead for the first 10 minutes of the game, until VJ3 returned for Hulls and Zeller got his first sub. Minn consequently goes on a 13-2 run over the next 2:30 to take control of the game. Crean brings Hulls and Zeller back in the game with a little over 7 minutes to go and IU finishes the half on a 14-8 run to bring it within 3.

    2nd Half: Crean made a statement by benching Hulls and Watford to start the second half. (Not sure why he went with VJ3 over Hulls… Both had bad first halves but statistically VJ3’s was worse and his entrance into the game was the impetuous for the Minnesota run, while Hulls was +7 in the first half). Minnesota jumps out to an 11 pt lead and hangs on during last minute subbing frenzy that gives IU an opportunity to tie the game in the last 2 seconds.

    Conclusion: tough to fault Crean for this loss… Certainly subbing played a major role in the outcome, because the Minnesota run came exactly after Hulls and Zeller left the game at the 10 minute mark. BUT you have to give those guys a breather at some point. He put them both back in a couple minutes later and they led IU back into the game. Crean was masterful at managing the last minute of the game subbing offense for defense, having his subs foul the right people, and creating scoring plays for his shooters. IU came up a bit short, but not because of subbing. Through the first 39 minutes IU subbed 31 times to Minn’s 23, but a couple things play into that, 1) Minn is not a deep team at all; and 2) IU was played flat and many of the starters were having bad games forcing Crean’s hand.

  81. Despite your erroneous assumption, my very last intent is to denigrate the players. I am totally questioning why Crean
    substitutes the way he does. In my opinion, it interrupts flow and doesn’t allow them
    to gain a rhythm. That is in no way a slam on the players.

    My take
    on the current slide is that they don’t have the same energy level. They don’t look
    excited to play, imo. I do have sources who feel there is stress, whether that be
    due to losing or lack of playing time is unknown.
    I don’t mind being ASKED about my opinions or posts. That’s why we blog. I do mind your attacks when I
    was unaware of this board’s “ground rules” and, as a result, was hammered by you as someone who would “kill” to have your time on the web. You know nothing
    about me and have no right to be insulting and pompous to any human being. I have not run into anyone so self aggrandizing in a very long time. (I can assure the blogger
    that I am anything but a shy college student fearfull of showing my thoughts.)

    I only returned to see if further information was needed on the substitutions. So, thanks
    for your kind permission to post here, Chet.

  82. Ohio State – 3rd loss

    – OSU made 12 subs in the first half and 10 in the second, with 5 coming in the last couple minutes, for a total of 22.

    – IU made 15 subs in the first half and 16 in the second, with 3 coming in the last minutes, for a total of 31.

    Conclusion: subbing had nothing to do with this game on any level. OSU came out and kicked our butt from the jump. Dipo got hurt early, Smith knocked down shots, we didn’t have any answers…
    However, in general OSU subs less than just about anyone in the country. Their bench is not that good and their starters are great, so why would they.

  83. Thanks everyone I am learning some things here.
    Thank you Karen.

    HC and Geoff good analysis.
    So after I reread the comments, my observations are still
    keeping the hot hand player on the bench to long and not reinserting that player and then the timing of that particular game situation?

    I will watch the game on Sunday and keep these comments in mind. Still gonna have questions about personnel and
    minutes or lack of minutes.


  84. HOOSIERPLUS, Thanks but the work done was the analysis, I just developed a couple of thoughts. I now think much of the subbing is plumb to the world and/or situational with the results certainly a higher % positive than negative. With the vision being RA is the future and VJ is the past we are straining this years envelop with next years expectations. We are fans why wouldn’t we?

  85. Harvard for Hillbillies
    Friday, January 13, 2012 – 4:16 PM EST

    It’s one thing if you have a deep roster full of McDonald’s All-Americans like Duke or Kentucky and not lose a hell of a lot of by rotating guys in and out. In their case, the disruption in continuity and chemistry on the floor are erased, or at least minimized, by the level of talent and speed inserted into the game.

    This is the challenge for Crean. Outside of the freshman phenom we know to be the main reason for our resurgence to winning basketball, Crean has a 8 to 10 guys that are almost interchangeable. We have a lot of above average talent, but other than Cody, nothing you’re going to see starting at the NBA level. Last year, we saw what happened in a three game stretch when Jones was injured…We saw the Hoosiers put together some strong games and pull a near-upset against a top team on the road. I remember how many were defending Jones and claiming it was more about other players stepping up that was contributing to a team that was running on all cylinders for a change. I wasn’t one of those defenders..I was a Jones basher. I saw the success as a direct result of Jones being out of the lineup…

    I’m not going back to check the stats, but I’m sure Jones contributed when he came back to the lineup last season…He probably had a game similar to what Sheehey did last night…put up a lower double digit scoring night ..nothing that is really exceedingly memorable. Another chance to contemplate why Crean thinks the positives in Jones outweigh the negatives.

    Classic case of too many monkeys in the barrel again last night…Too many options off the bench. A very well coached hungry Minnesota team without a conference win before last night…. add in a poor shooting night for Watford to a broken flow throughout the game because the options off the bench are not offering enough “wow factor” to compensate for the chemistry disruption, and the game had upset written all over it.

    Where am I going with this…? I love having a roster that is deep with 3/4-star talent, but at the same time, the fact there isn’t enough variance in the talent, contributes to a team that doesn’t look together, or on the same page, when the shuffling gets kicked up a notch. When a guy that had previously seen a lot of minutes gets sidelined by injury for a couple weeks(unless it’s Zeller, Watford, or Jordy), the team performs at a higher level and looks more in sync. There is a personality to every kid on that floor…They learn to identify their roles and relate to each other in terms of strengths,weaknesses, positioning.. Those individual personalities begin to mold into what begins to form into the personality of a team. By tournament time they look to each other like brothers and instinctively do things, not because of coaching, but because of familiarity and understanding. I don’t know, maybe the personality of this team is all its many personalities. Maybe it’s more of an orphanage than a small family unit..All I know is sometimes it bites us in the ass. Sometimes they just look like five 4-star kids plucked off of five middle-of-the-pack Big 10 teams forced to play together for one night.


    You guys go ahead and spend the rest of the year counting widgets with Geoff and karen. Send Crean a 50 page urgent e-mail from Stat Central Headquarters in Portsmouth. This team has already exceeded most expectations.

    Givens: Crean will continue to remain loyal to his favorite senior. There is no fix for the unequivocal commitment to VJ. Cody will garner as many minutes on the floor based on needed rest and foul trouble. If the kid goes down with an injury from excessive work, most of you will be screaming bloody murder at Crean for leaving him in too much. You have three remaining positions where options are endless because there is no standouts withing that mix. Of course there is stress! It’s natural stress of guys fighting their asses off for minutes in staying relevant and productive for the team. You have 8(Pritchard, Elston, Oladipo, Sheehey, Watford, Abell, Roth, Hulls)guys on the roster that each offer different advantages depending on game situation and match-ups; three spots on the floor our coach is willing to divvy up the additional substantial minutes. If we had another 5-star recruit alongside our two future NBA stars, Jones and Cody, you wouldn’t be seeing the revolving door in substitution patterns.

    The glass is more than half-full for God’s sake! We have one of the premier centers in the country and more help is on the way. As emphasized in my post from 2 weeks ago, get used to the musical chairs around Jones and Cody until “The Movement” and disparity in talent becomes more obvious. Until then, it’s everyday I’m shuffling.

    For what it’s worth, I believe we win 2 of our remaining 4 road games. I think the Hoosiers are going to sprint to the finish line and show a hunger that’s been absent in recent weeks.

  86. Nebraska game – 4th loss

    – NE made 13 subs in the first half and 19 in the second, including 5 in the last 2 minutes, for a total of 32.

    – IU made 15 subs in the first half and 18 in the second, including 5 in the last 2 minutes, for a total of 33

    1st Half: the entire half is played within a 3 point window, except for a 4 minute stretch between 7:30 and 3:30 where IU goes on a 10-5 run getting the lead up to 8. During that stretch Crean makes 5 substitutions. 3 of the subs are made with 30 seconds to go for one defensive stop, which is successful.

    2nd Half: IU pushes a 7 point halftime lead out to 11 with 6 minutes to go. That 14 minute stretch includes 8 substitutions. Nebraska then goes on an 8-0 run that isn’t started or marked by any subs, against a line-up of Hulls, Dipo, Sheehey, Watford and Pritch. Crean responds by subbing in Zeller but the momentum is lost and the refs take over.

    Conclusion: once again subbing doesn’t play any negative role in the outcome of the game. The subbing pattern of the two teams is essentially identical. During indiana’s best stretch of basketball in the first half they did their most frequent subbing. In the second half they played better than the other team for 14 minutes, but the other team made their run during a stretch that wasn’t preceded by, or contained any, subbing. As I stated and showed in a previous thread the main factor in this particular game was the vastly one-sided refereeing in the last 10 minutes, which directly resulted in at least 12 points for Nebraska.

  87. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz..Huh? (fart) zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. Huh? One-sided refereeing? Probably. Can we change that? zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.(currently dreaming of karen in a bikini)

  88. Geoff-

    Your analysis is very flawed. Correlation = Causation thing again. We’ll talk later.

  89. Harvard for Hillbillies’ statement: “a team that doesn’t look together, or on the same
    page, when the shuffling gets kicked up”. And “of course there is stress! ” As he describes
    the stress of guys fighting for minutes. Great post, actually. But he didn’t PROVE it, Chet.

    I’m trying to say here that these are my exact points, for which I was excoriated on
    technicalities. I guess this is an old boys’ board and you guys would rather flex your
    mental muscles by yourselves. (joke)
    Anyway, I am not enjoying the Scoop and will return to my friends on Hoopsta now.

  90. Wisconsin game – 5th loss

    – UW subs 13 times in the first half and 9 times in the second, including 0 in the last 3 minutes, for a total of 22 subs

    – IU subs 15 times in the first half and 17 times in the second, including 4 in the last 3 minutes, for a total of 32 subs.

    1st Half: IU’s starters struggle for first 5 minutes getting down 9-4. Crean makes 3 substitutions and IU goes on a 9-0 run. That group plays together for 7 minutes until they start to lose momentum and Crean makes wholesale substitutions. Over the last 8 minutes IU makes 11 substitutions but maintain a 2 point lead heading into halftime.

    2nd Half: the entire half is played within a 5 point window, with 3 ties and 3 lead changes. IU makes one 5-0 run directly after making their first 2 subs of the second half. After a few more minutes of back and forth Wisc made a 4-0 when IU brings their starters (Zeller, Hulls, and Watford) back in the game. There were no other significant trends in conjunction with subbing.

    Conclusion: Again I couldn’t find any real negative results from ineffective or too much subbing. Most IU fans consider this game the most lop-sided refereeing of the season against us, which was a major factor in the loss. The other factor pointed out most often was toughness. One big reason for the difference in subbing between UW and IU was that Crean had 2 players in foul trouble, while Ryan had no players in foul trouble at any point. Crean was forced to sub Zeller in situations that he most likely would not have, and Ryan was not forced to make any adjustments. I don’t think anyone would attribute this loss to subbing.

  91. karen-

    You’re fun. You should stay. No reason you can’t bounce back and forth between Hoopsta and Scoop…Just don’t go to Inside the Hall…(insert disclaimer here)..That place is a Pollyannasih mortuary. Kent Sterling’s blog may be another place you’ll find happiness(he’s a real Crean indicter).

  92. ron I was going to let the missing of J.Rivers pass by, but I just saw his brother play for Duke.

    It reminded me of how glad I was when J.Rivers graduated from IU. He was tough to watch kinda like Verdell.

  93. Harvard- loved post #103. The talent question is surely closely correlated with the subbing. Compare it to a baseball manager without a bonafide closer and thus forced to adopt a “closer by committee”.

  94. Thanks HOOSIERPLUS, karen, and Steve in Ottawa…Loved the “closer by committee” analogy.

    We shouldn’t be prematurely burying the Hoosiers…Sheehey is still dusting off a bit of rustiness and Elston is showing signs of life after giving up his role as Hannibal(credit to Chet for that moniker).

    This team is capable and deep.

  95. I’ve said all year that we have certain players on this team who are simply ok with losing. I read an internet article today on espn.com someone wrote about IU. He said something very similar to that. Whenever you have guys who think losing at the kohl center by 7 is an achievement then good luck winning any road game. Now No Chet I have no facts to back this up. Its an opinion blog so relax when people give their opinions. I happen to completely agree with Karen.If im on IU’s bench and and VJ or Watford are getting green lights and I don’t even get a chance to play im pissed!! Sorry that’s how I feel. We are not closing games out in the last 5 minutes and bottom line that’s coaching! Maybe some tough love would help. Until IU can prove it can win on the road we are a mediocre team. And PLEASE for the love of god stop telling me this team isn’t used to winning. IU fans can explain away mediocracy as well as any fans in the nation. Has anyone ever heard that saying before this season? Didn’t we start 15-0? Wouldn’t that get you used to winning? Please someone direct me to any quote or site where you’ve ever heard (this team isn’t used to winning) Now the good news. I’ve said all year we have the worst back court in the nation and two of our starting forwards have regressed badly so if we can stay around 500 CTC should be coach of the decade!!!!!

  96. Ok, so I have studied the play by play of each loss and I haven’t found any real negative trends that resulted from subbing patterns. If anything I was able to find a couple examples of where subbing helped IU either make a run or get back into a game. Of course this doesn’t show what the flow on the court looks like over these stretches, but it does show the end result of subbing patterns.

    There are a couple things about losing that would suggest a team would sub more:

    1) if your losing it is often because you’re not playing well, which would then cause a coach to make personnel adjustments.
    2) over the course of history, and one of RMK’s tenets, there is a known correlation between winning and the number of FT’s that are taken in comparison to the losing team. This means that losing teams are generally forced to sub because of foul concerns more than winning teams.
    3) when a team is behind in the second half they are often forced to foul late in the game leading to offense for defense substitutions.

    With these things in mind I took a look at IU’s wins against BCS conference teams to see what the subbing numbers were. They weren’t exactly what I expected, but some interesting stuff came up…

    1. IU subbed more than their opponents in 5 of the 7 wins. The only teams that subbed more were Kentucky and the first game against Penn St.

    2. IU averages 31.8 subs in wins and 36.4 in losses, but they really always seem to be right around 30-33 substitutions.

    3. There is one significant trend that sticks out… Crean almost without exception does an inordinate amount of subbing at the end of the first half. He seems to pick a time, somewhere in the 2-3 minute range where he starts subbing liberally. In those 7 wins he had 28 subs compared to 9 from the opponents during these situations. The outcome of these end of half situations was that IU outscored their opponents in 4 games, were even in 1 game, and were outscored in 2 of the wins, for an overall +4 going into halftime. So I would say this subbing strategy is working for us. Another interesting thing about this is that he made 0 substitutions at the end of the first half against UK (the only game he didn’t sub) and was a -5 points in the final 2 minutes of that half.

    So I think it’s safe to say Crean subs more than most coaches, but I think it would be hard to find any evidence that it’s to the detriment of the team. I believe that part of IU’s strength this year is their depth, which certainly contributes to a slightly higher subbing number. Most fans agree that there isn’t much of a difference in talent or effectiveness between VJ3 & Roth, or Sheehey & Dipo, and Watford and Zeller need subs from time to time, so Pritchard and Elston are going to get some minutes. And finally, the biggest difference between Crean’s subbing habits and those of other coaches is what he does at the end of first halves, which seems to be a net gain for our team.

    The only thing to do at this point is look at the subbing patterns of other coaches that people on this site would consider smart or successful and compare them to Crean. Don’t have the time to do that now, but I’ll make an attempt soon.

  97. Hoosierfaninky

    From can’t coach the last 5 minutes to coach of the decade.
    Man Fred Heiberg from Iowa State showed how a team can finish today against Kansas {5th} I like Crean no doubt,
    I really don’t care how the wins come on the road or at home. I don’t think winning on the road get us juiced. Every team has stress, top level teams have the 8th guy who can’t break into the 6th guys minutes, because 1 thru 5 are so solid. I think the toughness lies in Remy.
    I would like to see Remy [real minutes}and Vic pound each other in the chest after an aggressive play on offense or defense and see if other players jack it up a notch. We’ve seen every other combination

  98. HfKY – couple things…

    1) Chet did not blast Karen (nor anyone else I can remember) for having an opinion. He blasted her for stating an opinion as fact in a rumorish manner.

    2) we definitely do not have the worst backcourt in the nation. It’s not even up for further discussion. Two of our guards are in the top 15 in the country in 3-pt shooting. That alone disqualifies them from the discussion.

  99. Geoff, that’s an impressive statistical analysis that will be summarily dismissed because it doesn’t support the meme that CTC subs too much.

  100. Harvard – not sure what you are trying to say in post #107. I was simply pointing out trends and correlations, I never said that they “caused” anything. My entire point is that there is nothing significant, especially of any negative significance, that can be determined by his subbing patterns. I also firmly believe that Crean subs about the same as most coaches, with the exception of the last couple minutes of the first half. I will explore that theory later.

    My hypothesis is basically that if Crean doesn’t sub significantly differently during the other 37-38 minutes then it would be hard to say he is disrupting the flow of his team in a a significantly different manner than those other successful coaches.

  101. I hope everyone that thinks the big ten refs are so bad and we have been getting the shaft so bad saw the West Virginia Syracuse game today

  102. Geoff for goodness sake ,give us a break with all your rambling which proves nothing.Maybe if it was just left alone, things would turn out better or maybe not,no one knows. Your theory proves nothing, as you always say show me the proof. I have not heard you comment onletting Cody sit on the bench in the closing minutesof the Wisconsin game. Can you imagine Mr. and Mrs Zeller’s thoughtson this,probably thought CTC was doing another brilliant coaching job or?

  103. Subbing

    I guess I go back to when Sheehey had 14 points and was ready to play. He sat down and did not return. He was full of offense that game. If the game plan was come no matter what , we will follow our sub pattern. Then that is questionable. I know it was his 1st game back after an ankle injury, but medical advise is I hope {he is ready to go or he isn’t}. It looked like he was ok.
    Should not take the ball out of a hot hand.

  104. Elmo, the first half of your post makes no sense. I am not trying to “prove” anything, but if you can find a statement where you I say what I’m trying to prove I will gladly retract my statements.

    I did make a statement about Cody sitting at the end of the game… I said that I believe that Crean trusts Cody, but did not trust the refs. Cody was called for 4 bad fouls. Not a single one of those should have been called on him, so if Crean thinks that the game will go down to the wire why not save him for the crucial last couple possessions. I am not saying its right or wrong, but it’s certainly a justifiable strategy.

    Cody left the game with 5:21 to go and the resulting FT’s from his foul put IU down 2. He came back in with 1:03 to go and IU down 3. So it was a one possession game when he left and a one possession game when he returned. Basically you can say one of a couple things here…

    1) Either Cody could have helped IU gain a lead over the last 4 minutes – however during Zeller’s 18 minutes of playing time in the game up until the 5:21 mark the team was -3 points.

    2) Cody could have just as easily have fouled out in the next couple of minutes – this would have raised absolute hell with the same people that are criticizing Crean for not putting Zeller in the game sooner. They would have said Crean was stupid, he saw how Zeller was being officiated and kept him in the game anyway, and now we don’t have him for the crucial end game possessions in a super tight, must win game!

    So again, I won’t sit here and say Crean was right or wrong, but the way he handled it was fine by me and easily justifiable.

  105. Geoff, statistical analysis and rambling are exactly the same thing. Good grief, man, don’t you know anything?

    Actually, I’m sure statistical analysis sounds like rambling to some. Whut wid all dem numbuhs.

  106. HoosierPlus – it was stated very clearly after the Minnesota game that Sheehey (12 points) was on a strict minutes limitation, which was 15 minutes.

    They brought him back slowly, which means Crean is looking out for the player first, and putting his health and future potential to help the team above the possibility of Sheehey helping to win right now. Having Sheehey in the game wouldn’t have guaranteed a win, but the doctors believed it would have increased the risk of him recovering fully and properly.

    He obviously hasn’t been quite as effective since coming back from the injury, which has coincided exactly with the losing skid. It’s unfortunate (and I’m not saying it “caused” it Harvard), but the re-integration may be a part of what is ailing the Hoosiers right now.

  107. Elmo

    Hi Karen
    See you in the next segment or opportunity to post thoughts on toughness from Dustin concerning Iowa. Your last post could have been reduced to …. Chet What are your thoughts about Cody sitting the last critical minutes and the limited time on the court at the end of the game? Or something like that.

    It’s getting a little Well if you can’t change the tone
    then change your post font color to pink.
    Chet, HC and Harvard challenged me at 1st. I know they
    don’t hang to every word from me, but are decent in my request for discussion.
    Recently Coachv took a shot at me, just passing thru and did’t resurface. It’s all good.

    You don’t have to respond to me, because I’m not in attack mode.

    Hope you enjoy the game on Sunday and talk about your
    observations. I look for a win, Go HOOSIERS.

  108. Geoff

    When you coached Did a medical restriction or time restriction apply to any of your players? I accept your response to me. It seems in all the sports I have been around it’s Listed doubtful at game time or we will see how it goes during the game. I would not expect them to spray freon on an ankle, like they did to me in high school and put me back in the game. Paying for that these days. Not back pedaling all the way, He looked good and
    they predetermined his participation. Then I think he started the next game . which was a short turnaround?
    I don’t know. I’m spent ready to move on to the next

  109. Yeah, considering IU was picked by most to be a .500 team and their son, who was not the highest rated big in the country, is one of 25 players on the list for the Naismith Award I imagine Mr. and Mrs. Zeller think CTC is the greatest coach in the world. Despite elmo’s attempts to start an absurd rumor, I’d guess that the Zellers are on top of the world right now.

  110. Geoff you can probably justtify the cruxifiction. Chet, the good lady Karen put you in your place very nicely.

  111. HoosierPlus – no, but I didn’t coach or play at a high enough college level where that kind of expert medical attention was available. When I, or one of our players, was hurt it was as you said before, either you’re ready or you’re not. However, I do know a few higher up head coaches and lower level D1 assistants that might be able to confirm minute limitations based on injury. I also play with a couple guys that recently graduated D1 and/ or currently play NBADL or overseas. I will reach out to a couple and ask. If I get a response I will cite my source.

    one easy way to look at it though that is common jargon in sports is a pitch count or a snap count. When player come back in football they are often put on a snap count. And in baseball when pitchers are coming back off the DL they are almost always put on a pitch count. The higher up you get, the better the medical expertise, and the more managed the injury. If and when doctors don’t perform well with their diagnoses, prognoses, or recommendations then they are replaced. That doesn’t just isn’t a reality and doesn’t happen anywhere accept in big business sports – which IU hoops qualifies…

  112. Anyone want to take a shot at how (specifically) any of the points I made in response to the analysis is flawed I’d be more than happy to listen.

    I am honestly not married to one side of this substitution argument or the other, but if someone would like to argue one side I’d be happy to hear some analysis or facts.

    Btw Harvard, I agree with your premise in post #103… Especially the last paragraph.

    Not sure why anyone is trying to argue with me on this… I’m not saying anything controversial. I simply stated that their isn’t much evidence I observed, either in watching the games or in reviewing the play-by-play, that showed evidence that Crean’s substitution habits are hurting the team. If someone can point out some evidence to the contrary, other than straight up opinion, I’m all for it.

  113. Of course I, like almost everyone else here, disagree with the minute distribution of VJ3 versus Sheehey, Dipo, and Abel, but that is a slightly different conversation.

  114. Geoff, for the most part the Scoop has evolved into a really, really sharp blog. Really sharp people like smart analysis like yours. It’s really quite impressive and displays a lot of information that casual observation misses. I think you’ve pointed out yourself that your own analysis has surprised you from time to time.

    …and there are some that think it’s a waste of time.

    I wonder which group NASA would hire?

  115. Geoff
    Again I appreciate the time you took to dissect and put back together, the sub discussion. I am going to pay more attention to the game in that regard tomorrow.

    I think the tie in for me will be the next discussion, which is player and player minutes. I know this has been discussed many times before, but I’m going to look at
    more of the court, instead of following the ball.
    Like who’s setting picks correctly or who’s blocking out

    Also I hope to see more defense like Vic asserted against
    Penn States guard Frazier. Vic dictated a bit of where
    Frazier was going or least Frazier had to keep making adjustments to get to where he was going.

    If I read Iowa’s preview correctly, it;s Marble and Gaten;s’ without one of the other 3 getting loose and doubling their averages.

  116. This includes, in my opinion, some of the most consistently challenging and intelligent posting I have seen in this blog. It is a lot of fun to read, reread (and do so slowly) to make sure we got all of the juice out of each (underline each) post.

    We do have Karen to thank for it, even if for a moment many of us felt as if we were riding in a bus in Milan and someone was taking liberties with our butts. Karen did something very valuable with her opinion, she specified and identified a possible (and empirical) item. Substitution patterns and their impact (according to her hypothesis) on IU’s play, and a question of coach Crean’s game management. You can agree, you can disagree…but, I’m hoping these conversations also take place within the coaching staff as they review performances.

    When I first read Geoff’s initial postings (way back about six weeks ago), I raised an eyebrow in question. Time has shown me his x-ray view of the games is not only valuable (for the rest of us since he notices valid smaller events that do raise issues that group into patterns) but help us think (a much undervalued quaint Hoosier custom when it comes to ’roundball’).

    Harvard writes the lyrics… Hoosier Clarion, Podunker, Old School, HoosierPlus, Mass Hoosier, Davis …don’t mean to leave anyone out, even Elmo (yes Elmo, his uppercut can be pretty hard)… The heart and bandleader (think Benny Goodman)of this blog in the frequent wisdom anecdotes and (depending on mood), the bites and comments of Rolling Thunder from the Smokies, Chet. (Karen, truthfully at one point or another, we’ve all our butts kicked by him; I suppose Mrs. Chet keeps just shakes her head and laughs at him, while pointing her bayonet at him).

    I don’t know how long you’ve been following this blog. At one point we did have a pretty heavy and intense (scared the h___ out of Dustin) eyeball-to-eyeball about the limits on innuendo, rumor-mongering, questionable half-truths and many of us wanted limits when it came to attacking individuals (read that coaches or players) by questioning their character, alleging questionable behaviors (i.e. drinking habits, drug use, abusive behavior towards players…etc without specific and reasonably demonstrable evidence). In other words, we want to be very (even very, very critical) but retain a respect for human dignity and decency in our comments.

    Karen, I can’t tell you how much I and (obviously) many others enjoyed and thought about your original observation, and the impact on IU play) and respected (agreeing or not) your willingness to bring it and share it here. I sincerely (and intensely) hope you’ll become a permanent and frequent contributor. We would be the losers if you don’t.

  117. TasoTsug

    I find this Scoop Blog informative. I, also, appreciate
    the overview and thought put into the postings.

    By the way, if you are a Colts fan we have hired our 3rd coach with a Fu Man Ch or Goatee, with Irsay that’s 4.
    Rumored that Clyde Christensen will be the new receivers coach. They may not announce his hiring until he get’s a few days beard growth to fit in.

  118. Thanks Tsao, more like 14 weeks, but I appreciate your comments… Either way I’m a Scoop baby I guess. Been reading a while, maybe a couple years, but never a poster until I had my recent 4 month semi-retirement…

  119. Gilligan’s Island has its professor.

    By the time the statistical analysis gets done on coconut twig burn-time ratios, any hope for Chet’s pregame cloud signal strategy finding a flame and being sighted by Richard Heene’s son passing over in his NASA balloon, will thankfully, long be gone.

    The ship set ground on the shore of this uncharted desert blogging isle,
    with Gilligan(Harvard), the Skipper too(Chet), the Millionaire(elmo)_
    and his wife(HT), the movie star(HOOSIERPLUS), the Professor(Geoff)
    and Mary Ann(karen), here on Gilligan’s Isle.

  120. Hoosier plus you misread. I said this team does not play well in the last 5 minutes.I recall Bob Knight saying we’ve done all we can do with him now it’s up to him. If anyone watches this game again watch Watford miss two big free throws and his man get 2 or 3 rebounds in the last two or three minutes.That’s just this game he’s stunk for 4 or 5 in a row! Some things you can’t explain away guys. Now in southern Indiana us IU and a lot of UK fans remember Watfords performance against UK and have only seen it once again in the Michigan game.I was renting a movie tonight in Kentucky and a uk fan ask me what happened to Watford? He said coach cal would have benched him quick (and he would have) but CTC has no one to take those minutes yet. He is mediocre at best. Now Geoff I get you and Chet confused since you two post on here more than anyone else but EVERYBODY I know thinks we have the worst back court in the B10! Hulls hits those 3’s not VJ. VJ does nothing but hurt the team I think 90% of IU fans would agree and unless Hulls is hitting he does the same. Easy way to resolve this name a backcourt in the B10 that’s worse than ours from an all around standpoint? Iv’e watched alot of basketball this year and I swear to god I have not seen a back court as consistantly bad as ours. Examples- Alabama, Baylor, Iowa st, Mizzo, Texas, St.johns, Louisville, Uconn, Evansville, Auburn, Fla, N.C state, Every big ten team except maybe Nebraska those are just teams I watched recently bro. Do you disagree with any of those?

  121. Hoosierfaninky

    Yeah I read the 5 minute observation and then somewhere you got to mediocrity and that if Crean was mediocre he would qualify for coach of the decade.
    Your the Gourmet. bro

    Geoff or Chet or both you’re up if you want to address .

  122. Of course there is no “negative significance” you can detect..Can I try an example? Say you pull a kid from a game doing some positive things after he’s only been on the court for a short time(e.g. Elston just beginning to get into a rhythm and acclimated to the game) and then sub him out quickly in favor of, for instance, Pritch. You may see negative, or you may see positive consequences in terms of score differential after the subbing occurred. What does that prove? Leaving Elston in the game could have resulted in even greater “runs,” added distance on our opponent, or, conversely, more lost ground. It is impossible to prove what could have happened if Elston had remained in the game. All you are showing is the after-the-fact effect of the substitution. Could there have been better combinations, resulting in more scoring, increased aggressiveness in defensive play, and chemistry, if the change would have never been made? There is still no way you can surmise that leaving Elston in for five more minutes could have accounted for increasing advantages, or disadvantages. Unless you’re living in an alternate universe and can watch a parallel game where Elston didn’t get benched quickly, how can you determine one player’s effect on another in terms of how well they work together, look to each other, screen solidly for each other, communicate, compliment, trust, and distribute the ball?

    Thousands of variables will never be accounted for because you can’t analyze what didn’t happen. There will always be an opportunity cost. Did you take Econ 101? Here’s a Wikipedia excerpt:

    Opportunity cost is the cost of any activity measured in terms of the value of the next best alternative foregone (that is not chosen). It is the sacrifice related to the second best choice available to someone, or group, who has picked among several mutually exclusive choices.[1] The opportunity cost is also the cost of the foregone products after making a choice. Opportunity cost is a key concept in economics, and has been described as expressing “the basic relationship between scarcity and choice”.[2] The notion of opportunity cost plays a crucial part in ensuring that scarce resources are used efficiently.[3] Thus, opportunity costs are not restricted to monetary or financial costs: the real cost of output foregone, lost time, pleasure or any other benefit that provides utility should also be considered opportunity costs.

    There are countless factors that go into a coach’s thought processes for subbing and to say he’s made the right or wrong decision is all pretty ridiculous to me. And to even bother with the analysis if a coach is tying his own hands, limiting his options, because he emotionally wrestles with taking a favored senior off the floor due to honor/loyalty issues? Each player substitution has vastly different opportunity costs that remain immeasurable. For whatever reason Crean decided Cody was the second best choice from the approximate 4:00 mark until the 1:00 mark (we assume his first choice was to leave him on the bench because of his 4 fouls), we will never know the opportunity cost (possible points forgone, defensive stops, rebounds, blocked shots, fouls committed by his defender)and all benefits realized or unrealized in the vacuum of those three minutes never had with his teammates.

    It’s all rather presumptive. The results are there to study and the analysis may provide clues, but it could be very dangerous to make definitive conclusions that best scenarios were achieved. Outside the details being examined and the numbers(after-the-fact) being crunched lives the mystery of opportunity forgone.. And what of long term opportunity costs? What you may see within the multiple substituting decisions in one contest as not having huge impacting negatives, may be still be detrimental in terms of opportunity cost when it comes to the chemistry and continuity your team is struggling to find. Every decision has a consequence (using a lot of your bench for player development vs. sticking with a narrower lineup), and in the game of basketball, those consequences can stretch through the entire season beyond and irrespective of what we believe to be successful or unsuccessful immediate results. Of course, few people really care of those unknowns and forgone possibilities if there is a ‘W” in the Win/Loss column.

  123. Slight change to that final sentence:

    Of course, Weedhopper, few people really care of those unknowns and forgone possibilities if there is a ‘W’ in the Win/Loss column.

  124. I think some of this can be chalked up to perception. Does CTC sub too much? Maybe. Does he sub more than any other coach? Statistical analysis says no. Does it hurt when he subs? Maybe, but the numbers don’t add up that way.

    We used to have a coach at our local high school (4A, the largest in NC). They ran the Notre Dame box and just beat you to death with their defense. Third and eight? Pound it up the middle. Assignment defense. Always be where you are supposed to be. Watching it was sometimes like getting a root canal. Man, those schools down in Charlotte with Chris Leak throwing the ball, they were something to watch. They sent kids off to D1 schools all the time. We rarely did. Our kids weren’t big and we’d only have 2 or 3 really fast guys. Coach drove all the fans crazy. Four or five yards a play. Throw it 3 times a game. All we did was win. He brought home 3 state championships in 10 years. Won the conference for something like 14 out of 15 years. Always won ten games.

    Everyone insisted we’d be better running the spread or whatever. Maybe they were right, we’ll never know. About the only time people didn’t complain was when they lifted that trophy.

  125. Yeah, I think that was a good post Harvard. I like the concept of opportunity cost as it relates to this discussion.

    Karen’s original point, and the argued perception on the Hoosier Hoopsta was that Crean subs too much, and that his too frequent subbing breaks up any rhythm of the team. While, due to the concept of opportunity cost, it would be hard to prove the second part one way or another, you certainly can look at Crean as compared to his peers, and wins versus losses to look at trends. The trends won’t give you ALL the answers, but they can certainly give you some valuable information.

    Two things I have learned already are that Crean subs more in losses, on average, than in wins, and that he has a strategy of late first half subbing to make runs going into halftime – a strategy that has worked more often than not this year, and that his peers don’t seem to be doing.

    I feel like you’re challenging me to do another analysis of who is subbed for whom, so maybe I will. My guess is that there will be very few times that a non-starter is taken out in favor of another non-starter or player that is perceived to be worse by the fan base. This is what you described in the Elston for Pritch example.

    Dammit! Now I have to go do more hours of this…

  126. Question and I am being serious. I am still learning how to contribute and not get a lecture. There was a time when you could post anything you wanted on here as long as you were a respected poster and not a one time meanie. Really though…if Karen had said I FEEL LIKE before the tension comment…would that have been alright with some of you over 50 or over 60 year old folks? I am just curious. I have read her first post over and over and all she was saying was simply that Crean was playing favorites with Jones…btw the majority of people I associate with agree with that. Then Karen states it is creating tension on the team. It is clear Karen feels this way from watching the games…not trying to start rumor or anything like that. Chet, you make a comment to Karen about someone will call you on this every time. Who, you and one or two newer posters on this blog? Please, you don’t run this thing. You might think you do beause you post more than anyone. If I had time I would count how many posts you have made in the last 10 days. I bet it is over 1,000. I just don’t have that time. Before you attack me I am joking with most of this…but the whole rumor police thing is worn out. This should be a place you can post whatever the heck you want! Some of you bash players or name players on a consistent basis and that is alright becase the moral code of rules you live by say that is ok? At one time a certain poster would attack people who named players and now he does it as well. So I guess this blog has turned into the sort of place that has rules according to who posts a great deal and if you don’t stay within you will get attacked or someone will say it is bullshat!! Karen, say what the hell you want to. Screw some of these own farts with a moral and ethical code on a blog that most likely cannot hold down the same code in every day life!!

  127. OLD farts! Sorry about that spelling error…even spelling is am issue to some posters, ha! What ever happened to common respect for IU fans???

  128. HfKY – this was your statement in post #117

    “I’ve said all year we have the worst back court in the nation and two of our starting forwards have regressed badly so if we can stay around 500 CTC should be coach of the decade!!!!!”

    So that was what I was arguing. If you want to have a discussion about where our backcourt ranks compared to others in the B1G or other top 25 teams, then yeah, you have some ground to stand on. There is also a difference between “backcourt” and starters. I think part of what makes IU good this year is the depth in the backcourt. I would definitely say that our starting backcourt is around the bottom of the B1G and certainly not as talented as the majority of the teams you listed. I am not sure that Evansville’s backcourt is better. There is a lot to be said about relative talent and a players role in comparison to his teammates. Hulls and Jones are not significantly more talented than their teammates, and therefore they are not the focal points of the offense. I don’t know the Aces’ backcourt players well, but If you put them on Evansville’s roster I’m not sure they both don’t step right in as starters.

    The clearest evidence would be the head to head matchup when IU won by 20+ and Jones and Hulls combined for 31 points on 10-15 shooting and 9 assists. While Taylor and Ryan went for 21 points on 5-14 shooting and 6 assists. Hard to say that Evansville’s backcourt is better…

    To go further, I also disagree that our starting forwards have regressed…. I only argue that because I think Dipo has made a huge improvement since last year, and his recent string of slightly less effective games is due to a change in the teams defensive philosophy (more zone) and the return of Sheehey, which has reduced his minutes, not because of any regression from Dipo. I also didn’t think that Watford made a huge improvement that he would have been able to regress from. I think this is Watford… He is capable of big games, but not talented, physical, or mentally tough enough to do it on any consistent basis. Therefore he hasn’t regressed, he’s stayed the same.

  129. Late to the conversation, but I would just like to add that I love Geoff’s analysis and breakdown of questions a lot of us have. So Geoff, two thumbs up, and continue doing what you’re doing.

  130. I’m on your side Jpat.Geoff one last question for you with all the time you spend on facts and figures has any of that changed the outcomes? If not then it has to be useless info and you need to find something better to do.

  131. VJ SUCKS!
    Wilson is a JERK!

    VJ’s game really sucked last night. Maybe he was having an off night…..again.

    Wilson acted like a jerk when I approached him. Maybe he was having a bad day…..I mean it is a mountainous task to rebuild our football program.

    The first two statements are full of contempt and suggest finality in their overall assessment of the individual.

    The latter two statements are still heavily opinionated, but still hold onto other explanations and possibilities for change.

    JPat- I liked your post. There was a lot of truth in those words. Some of what I’m hearing through the filter of my own bias ear is that you are more upset that others have taken away your thrown on Scoop in playing the role of saying what they damn please, rather than being just as offended by their harsh opinions, as some were of yours. Does that make any sense?

    I’ve rarely seen a blogger on here that hasn’t had their moments of harsh words directed at another(blogger, player, coach, etc). And you are right, there is a substantial amount of hypocrisy in holding you to a different standard than someone posting for the first time popping on here. Maybe you should take that as a huge compliment. To hold you to that higher standard likely means the person accusing you believes in you and knows you well enough to challenge you to not be so final in your judgments. It’s what friends do to each other all of the time.

    When I make nasty comments they are often ignored. Dustin ignores me when I go overboard in being critical a perspective to a story or something I believe should be covered and is omitted from the pages of Scoop. Why do they not attack me with the same attention you received? They must see me as a lost cause and with no redeemable qualities. Be thankful people care enough about you on this blog to tell you how they feel.


    Looking forward to the comments regarding todays game.
    Alot to consider, I’m viewing the game a little different.

  133. Breakdown of substitution patterns with trend analysis the +/- effect on score differentials ..Breakdown of Crean’s substitution patterns compared to other coaches in the Big 10…Breakdown of substitution pattern for coaches of the Big 10 versus coaches from the ACC..Breakdown of individual substitution patterns of scrubby players coming off the bench to replace players perceived by the fan base as higher quality players(like that isn’t full of subjectivity)..Breakdown of substitutions based on TV timeouts versus a coach’s timeout..Breakdown of singular substitutions compared to multiple player substitutions..Are more positive results found when one player is substituted versus two, three, or four at a time? I know I’ve always wanted the definitive answers. Breakdown of substitution patterns our games leading into the Big 10 season compared to the Big 10 season. Breakdown of substitution patterns of Crean while at Marquette compared to Crean at Indiana. I wonder how far Geoff will go with go with this? I can almost envision the final breakdown.

  134. It would have been nice if we knew the sub pattern for the 16 games we won. I am going out on a climb here and say they were most likely similar. I will say IMHO that coach loves Jones for what ever reason and Jones would not start as a point guard on any other team in the B10. He would be better as a small forward off the bench who could catch and shoot and for all the lip Hulls gets for being a 6′ PG with poor defense Jones is much worst at 6’5″. Hulls never gives up on a play and always hustles unlike VJ3. In the Wisc game when the score was in the 30’s Jones lost his man 3 times for easy baskets,had a TO and lost his dribble. We all know he has a bad side but coach only seems to see his good side. The good news is he will not play next year and in his defense this is his best season in terms of assists to turnovers. This team has amazed me with it’s play. I thought they would be something like 19-11 but they will be a 20 game winner in the big dance and Coach deserves a lot of credit for this year’s team!

  135. I don’t recall saying much of any of the stuff you’re attributing to me, J Pat. Other posters have commented on you and karen’s ‘attack’ claims. As far as ‘attacking’ karen, all I did was ask her her sources when she was making unsubstantiated claims about the players (which she never provided BTW). Then you and she start throwing around the ‘attack’ claim. As Geoff pointed out, I never attacked anyone. I know you get highly offended when people have asked for your sources in the past, so this is no doubt a sore spot for you.

    That’s a ‘you’ problem. I can’t help it if you want to take umbrage over a simple request.

    J Pat, your post above is far more ‘attacking’ of me than anything I have ever posted on the Scoop. It is quite rude and questions my character. When have I ever done so to you (or anyone else)? Before you decide to demean the character and actions of another I would suggest you decide if it is due to their actions or your feelings.

    I’m glad you had fun in Indy.

  136. …as far as being an ‘old fart’ come on down here with a mountain bike and we’ll see who’s puking first.

  137. Good stuff Harvard!

    Southport65 – I did do a breakdown of the 7 wins versus BCS conference teams, since those will more resemble what a coach is truly trying to accomplish. 30 point blowouts against inferior competition doesn’t tell you a whole lot, so I left those games out… See post #118…

  138. JPat…’old fart’!!??!!…(were you not aware that it is a federal crime to discriminate on the basis of age?) …you really are IBS (look it up in the medical encyclopedia), no matter how much effort you put into it, it never comes out right.

    Actually JPat, read Harvard’s comment to your post, but I sincerely doubt you’ll ever figure it out. It’s in your nature!It’s like asking VJ3 not to take a bad shot exactly when we need to use clock; or get distracted and lose his man on defense (“there he is VJ”, we think as we see the ball come through the net); or turn the ball over because his ‘bounce pass'(through six sets of hands) looks like a flat stone skipping along the lake.

    A great story I heard once. A scorpion is standing along the shore on the Indiana side of the Ohio River watching the water racing along after a huge storm. He wants to cross, but knows he can’t. Suddenly he sees a fish swimming, just riding along the top of the current.

    “Mr. Fish, take me across,” he begs. “I’ll pay you $100 bucks”. The fish looks at him, thinks for an instant and says, “oh no!…you’d bite me and I’d die from your poison or drown.”

    “Oh no!! ahh, ahh-ahh!”, says the scorpion, “if you drown, I’d drown too…I can’t swim.” The fish thinks about it (‘makes sense’, he thinks. And, the fish says “OK, jump on my back, I’ll take you across for $100.”

    They begin to cross the strong current and approach the middle of the river,, about 400 yards from either shore. Suddenly, the scorpion swings his pincer upwards and bites the fish on his back.

    “Ohhh,” says the fish… “you stupid, stupid scorpion, now I’m going to die and you are going to drown…what the h___ did you bite me for??!!….now we’re both going to drown!”

    “Yeah…I know…sorry…I couldn’t help myself” says the scorpion, beginning to cry, “…it’s my nature!” says the scorpion, as they begin sinking.

  139. Chet, Re:#164
    If you don’t consider your posts to me attacks I feel sorry for you. You ASSUMED I
    stay on line hour after hour, as you continued to say I have no credibility because I did not respond. My initial
    post (and first on this site) occurred at 1:39PM 1/2712. I then left, to live my life. That was post #25. You posted 3 times before I even returned with my post at 11:03PM about
    substitutions, brazenly saying I had no credibility because of no response.(29, 37) The posts
    that followed attempted to demean and extricate rationally any point I made. You, in my opinion, were not only rude but insinuated I would “kill” to have your luxury life on the web!(68, 72 and 96)
    You said I was denigrating the players (#96) when my post #25 said nothing close to that.
    So if you believe that to be proper behavior, and those on this board do not object
    to that, more power to you.
    I thank those that at least read my blog. I really was just posting as we do on Hoopsta
    and was honestly shocked at the result. I am just another person interested in the Hoosiers.
    Good luck and I wish you all well.

  140. Harvard, Geoff, Chet, HC, HT, HoosierPlus, Karen (hoping you still read us)….actually, Geoff is very right about the value of sound statistics, empirical analysis and very creatively identifying categories to examine. The issue of substitution richly deserves it, examining which players are likely to make unforced errors in critical moments of a game, the distribution of good /bad shots in different game situations, failure to block out…all of these are quantifiable and by defining the ‘typical’ we can examine the particular in a very valid context.

    Certainly statistical analysis now has the mathematical tools to do some incredibly penetrating examination of play (individual and team, offense and defense way beyond % shot, number of rebounds). Unfortunately, most basketball coaches do not have the tools to develop rigorous and will likely avoid it simply because they do not understand that value.

    I’m also just as sure someone will immediately say that doing this is ridiculous and will never ‘replace a coach’s ‘intuition or feel’. Actually, that analysis is the process most coaches try to do in their head, but few are smart enough to be good at it.

    And, while knowing how to use the tools to get data and answers to the problems, the key is in the format Karen used in her comment. Her observations led her to make significant and important questions such as ‘what it the impact of frequent substitutions’ on a game, on a team, on individual players, team cohesiveness. What is this thing called ‘rythm’. How does a basketball player react/feel and assume that he will go in and out of games in 30-40 second bites when he learned and grew up and defined his personality playing the game in 25+ minute sets.

    In other words, there are all kinds of implications to think about. My ‘old man’ used to talk about the value of sometimes stopping to contemplate ‘the meaning of my belly-button’.

  141. JPat, RE: 154
    Thank you for your thoughts. I don’t know anyone here and appreciate reading your
    take on it. I’ve only blogged at Hoopsta, and people there might have a friendly
    argument about coaching, a player, etc., but I have never, in 3 years, seen such
    acrimony toward someone for stating a question or opinion. If anyone gets too
    worked up, people quit responding to him/her or the administrator stops the thread. I’ve only seen that happen once and it was a member who wanted IU to recruit “thugs” as
    he put it, so they would compete with more physical teams. That blogger no longer posts.
    I’ll stay with Hoopsta.

  142. Another thought. The ‘official’ FIFA rules of championship soccer(international and local championships) restrict the number of substitutions per game to three. That is a total of three substitutions period, not three players alternating in and out. A player who has been substituted may take no further part in that game.

    As a result coaches have to be much more strategic in their approaches both as they plan their games and tactically aware as games unfold (who do you substitute if some is hurt, when do you substitute). Issues like the role players play, creating a ‘team style’ (counterattacking, long ball v. possession ball, on the ground or in the air, formations- 4-4-2 v 4-3-3 v 4-3-1-2 etc are all part of the training as are the issues of physical training like stamina, strength, varying ‘rythms’ during the game, even learning to ‘coast’ for certain periods.

    Actually, this adds to the fascination of the game which is the reason it is the most popular, most watched game on the Earth.

    The US’s NCAA however,decided it would ‘change’ the rules and allows ‘free substitution’. Not only does it change the nature of the game, but I believe it makes it almost impossible for the US to compete at the highest levels until it assumes the rules used throughout the world.

    It indeed would be interesting to see what would happen with basketball if there were restrictions on substitutions (i.e. four per game, 1 per quarter + injury replacement).

  143. Right on Tsao. Like the soccer digression, and I had no idea about the U.S. rule (it would never work in basketball IMO).

    I brought up soccer in passing a day or two ago – the Madrid and Barcelona rivalry, to be specific – and Chet was quick to give me the sarcastic treatment (I had my wife read over it, just to be sure, and she agreed 😉 )

    Glad to see that someone else on this thread appreciates the world’s most popular sport.

  144. It just hit me. I can’t believe it took me this long to figure it out. Our karen is just here to draw traffic to Hula Hoopsters, or whatever the hell her site is. “I’ve never been so insulted, I’m going to Hula Hoopsters”, “Good-bye forever, I’m going to Hula Hoosters”, “You’re just awful, I’m going back to Hula Hoosters where the children are happy and the gardens are lush”, “This is it. This is my final good-bye, I’m going to Hula Hoopsters”, “You’re evil incarnate but they’re are loving and friendly at Hula Hoopsters”, “This is really, really good-bye. Really, I mean it. I’m going to Hula Hoopsters.”

    This is hilarious.

  145. Chet,
    I have come back because I cannot yet figure out why you feel the need to TRY to
    make people so uncomfortable, and never admit you might be wrong about anything
    in our exchange. Baffling but not surprising.
    And, I find several people here interesting. My choice. Not yours.

    Just don’t go to Hula Hoopsters. No such thing exists and it might take you all
    day on the web looking for it. 🙂

  146. Karen don’t respond to Chet we are well aware of who and what he is, he’s like a young robin all mouth and full of —-. You do have some friends on the blog.

  147. Hoosierplus you read wrong again. Or maybe I’ve written wrong again. I didn’t mean CTC was mediocre. Most regulars on here no im a CTC supporter ( Now I do question his sub patterns but so do 75% of hoosier nation) I was pointing out Watford was mediocre which he is. Karen get some thicker skin we are all IU fans here whom after losses will say some nasty things to one another we disagree with. You have to think Karen, the basketball IQ on here isn’t the highest in the world either. A month or so ago there was a raging debate about Hulls being drafted! This is still as funny to me as when I first read it. So you have some very ignorant fans on here just like most blogs. Well maybe not ignorant maybe just Bloomington homers. For the record Hoosierplus im a big CTC supporter (unless he misses the tournament next season) but will always question his loyalty to playing Jones, Hulls and Watford as much as he does. Hasn’t Pritch and Elston shown they are ready to play some minutes?

  148. Who is this Karen who Chet’s obsessing about??? Why she keep writing him coded messages??? Stay away from my Chet b___!!! He’s mine lady!!! I’ll tear your eye balls out lady if I catch you hanging around him again!!!

    (it’s really me…TTG, but thought this is too funny)

  149. Thanks for the insight, Hoosierfaninky. Now I understand and am ready to go on to another topic, if I find something to say. I’m really and truly only here because I
    love Hoosier basketball.

  150. Top 10 anagrams for hoosierfaninky

    10. asinine fry hook

    9. his rookie fanny

    8. heroin info yaks

    7. noisy hokier fan

    6. hankies of irony

    5. honky on fairies

    4. a honky is on fire

    3. a fine shiny rook

    2. fake noisy rhino

    1. ahoy foreskin in

    Why do they all seem so appropriate?

  151. Harvard – were you able to put that in an app somewhere or did you figure all those out? That list is amazing.

  152. Harvard, throne…I never really had one but I do get what you are saying. I just used to be able to post what I want and now I am questioned all the time and for what.We are all IU fans, some forget that I think!

    Karen, I totally agree. It is like if you don’t agree with the 2 or 3 posters that live their life on here…you don’t belong. Karen, it was not always like that.

    Tsao, a typical post from you talking down to me…that is all I will say. BTW, I quit reading when I read the first sentence of the scorpion…it was a waste of your time.

    Chet, maybe I am in attack mode because that is all you seem to do to people who disagree with your opionion, just saying. I was being semi-sarcastic with most of my post…it is hard for you to tell that on the computer just like it is hard for you to say call someones opinion BS and I not take it as an attack…the computer has made it all too easy for us, even me to say things on here we would never say to someones face!!!

    At least IU won!!!

  153. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-Sgvq98mjc

    Karen This is in fun. Please take it that way. Easy target after Chet’s post , which is funny and accurate.
    You are the Brett Favre of the Scoop. Keep coming back and let’s discuss a fun season. Like I said earlier. People take shots at me and then agree on other comments. You got props for the sub discussion, which actually helped me in the Iowa game.

    I viewed the game a little different,as different combinations were beneficial to the overall
    team play. There was a flow and team identity.

    Let’s move on to Michigan and hopefully get Purdue.

  154. Hoosierfanicky

    Sorry So many posts did not see this until now.
    I don’t think I know where to go with that, let’s move on to Michigan and see how everyone is doing.

  155. Geoff-

    Just a silly app….inside my huge brain.


    One day we’ll likely all lose our interest. We should really all be rather thankful that Dustin, Ryan, and the rest of the Hoosier Scoop team go to the work to provide this site free of charge, free of invasions into privacy, free of censorship, and free of limitations on personal expression. There is nothing stopping you from saying whatever the hell you want to whomever the hell you please. Hold your ground, walk away, or chat away..The choice is yours. The worst that will happen is Dustin will slap you on the wrist or wipe off the board a post he believes crossed the line. Personally, I don’t think anything you’ve said has been very shocking. Nothing of much importance comes off our keyboards. The blabber, innuendo, opinions(fair and blatantly unfair) rarely escapes the small circle of voices that frequent this place. The cyberdust settles..We move on.

    For what it’s worth, out of simple curiosity, I visited the site karen was giving prompts to in most of her postings. I couldn’t even read one thread without registering and giving a personal e-mail address. No thanks. I highly doubt it comes anywhere near the whole smorgasbord of offerings on this classy place known as Hoosier Scoop. I’m also sure the content is lacking. Where else can you have everything under one roof? We have the opportunity to engage in LiveChat, watch a late night ScoopTalk session after a game, feast on a Hoosier Brunch with our cup of coffee at home or work with platefuls of offerings to links and stories around the Big 10 and nation, and enjoy excellent coverage from a veteran like Dustin, along with creative perspectives a fine writer new to the Bloomington sports scene in Ryan.

    Those that come on here and whine about the place being infested with bullies or claim it’s not the same? Ungrateful hogwash and a slap in the face to those at HT that work so hard to bring the plethora of Hoosier enjoyment without asking anything but our showing of enough respect to not cross lines of decency. I saw the place three years ago. The site has evolved tremendously under Dustin’s guidance and the posters are a wonderful mixture of unique individuals from vastly different backgrounds.

    Before long the passing ship all our lives will take us from this island we chat, skip stones, and kick sand unshackled to the worries are daily drudgery. By choice a leaving this addiction, or otherwise, we all begin to scatter like the wake come off the stern and find new voyages that send us onward our new courses.

    I know Harvard will miss all of you when that day arrives.

  156. Harvard,

    Members on Hoopsta register one time and never again. Guests have to enter info
    as you did. Hoopsta’s director and innovator is making multiple additions to the
    site, not that any members asked for it. Maybe you did not enter and register, I certainly
    don’t know. Obviously us members thoroughly enjoy the site. I only came here to
    see what this was all about.
    Guess I found out!!!!!!

  157. Wow, you are right Hoosier Plus, another “Favre-esque” comeback by karen after swearing to leave the site. Unbelievable.

    Do you know that the word ‘Hoopsta” appears 14 times on this thread (including that usage right there)? I had never heard that silly word before, and now its suddenly everywhere.

  158. Ok, enough. I was right. You guys really don’t want new people here and will
    mock and bully until I leave. Just FYI, the name of the site I appreciate, as do many
    others, is “Hoosier Hoopsta”. Unlike Scoop, people are respectful, friendly and knowledgeable without putting others down. And no one there has ever had to preface
    a statement with a disclaimer. I was under the assumption that IU fans could enjoy learning from each
    other without bravado and mockery. Obviously not here.
    HT, congratulations. Your comments were the last straw. I will not be interested in
    rejoining this group in the future and that is a promise.
    You can celebrate with a high 5.

  159. OK Karen
    And east coast people think the Super Bowl
    Zipline = is Indianapolis’s mass transit system.

  160. My top 3 guesses for what “Hoopsta” was, before I knew it was a blog:

    1) “Hoopsta” – a movie about playground basketball starring Queen Latifah and Elijah Wood

    2) “H.O.O.P.S.T.A” -a new all-encompassing government bureau, the “Homeland Organization, Operation, Protection, Security, and Transportation Administration”

    3) Botched version of the classic oldies song by Maurice and the Zodiacs,” I hoop-you-sta, just a little bit longer!”

  161. Harvard, do you think it is as accepting of different posters views as it was 3 years ago? We have been on about the same length of time…I am approaching 3 years now too, wow! I truly enjoyed your post but I must say I long for the days of (I know some are still here under other names) GFDave, KevinK, D-5, Husky Tom, Mike P and many others I fail to remember…there was a common RESPECT that is missing now!!!

  162. By ‘respect ‘ I’m assuming you mean accepting rumors and innuendo without question. Other than that what are you referring to?

  163. Hardaway could try to take the game over again, maybe like he and his father communicated last game. I hope we break fast on his missed 3 attempts.

  164. J Pat, It doesn’t really mean anything one way or another to me. I think people are pretty respectful around here. hoosierfromky, elmo, and a couple others like to poke me in the ribs from time to time but I’ve never felt there was anything malicious about it. I like having them around. I like to have fun with it when they do. If everybody agreed about everything it wouldn’t be worth posting here. Harvard and Geoff are forever nudging each other but I’m pretty sure they both enjoy it. Hoosier Clarion and I disagree about all kinds of things but I couldn’t have any more respect for him.

    My best friends and I are way harsher to each other’s face than anything I’ve ever seen here. I would suggest you not take everything so personally but that’s entirely up to you.

  165. Chet, I am done on this. You are forever convinced I take things personally and I can deal with that. I am convinced you are disrespectful when you do not agree with another posters view or when someone challenges your view. Simple as that.

  166. No disrespect intended, karen. I hope you change your mind and decide to stick with us.

  167. Before my detractors say, “OH, she’s back!”, I am only back to tell you guys that I am
    a 60 plus year old retired RN who has been an IU fan since most before most of you
    were born. I have 2 children who are IU grads.
    Considering this site is open to all and read by anyone, I must tell you how surprised and
    I am that IU (Herald TB) has a site that has some members so devoted to insulting and mocking
    new members. It’s so easy to ridicule behind a computer screen, isn’t it? I’m sorry that
    people visiting here have to see what some of you say to make yourselves feel important.

    No disrespect intended, Harvard? I find that hard to believe, if you look over these posts.
    But thank you for the effort. You guys enjoy yourselves because I really won’t come back again. I just had to say this.

  168. Karen (i know youll be back to read this) – the tone in here is downright civil compared to the message boards on the Herald Times PAID subscriber online newspaper, where people crack jokes (or worse) on a daily basis about car crashes, disappearances, and stories of struggle.

  169. Karen, I knew from the get go you were not on here to stir rumor or gossip any more than I have been with Wilson…it should have been obvious to any reader. I am sorry we have lost you.

  170. karen-

    Crean plays favorites, esp. with Jones, and it is creating tension on this team.

    It appears Crean must have nursed Jones and the rest of the team all that tension against Iowa.

    You honestly believe it’s fine if you hide behind a screen name, throw innuendo to the wind, without being challenged by Hoosier fans that may feel your words were disrespectful to a coach and his team? It’s completely obvious you were attempting to stir the reactions you received. Don’t get me wrong, I’ve also played that game and received the challenges I expected. I’ve placed my share of blatant innuendo(though I wouldn’t call any of my posts the spreading of personal rumors I want to share because I have some connection to the “inner circles” of the Hoosier teams)on this blog.

    Do you think Tom Crean would challenge you to your opening “hello, I’m karen” statement? I would tend to believe the returning kindness would be far less constrained than any miserably unfair treatment your tactless quest to incite was given on Scoop.

  171. Harv, I honestly don’t think she was stirring for reaction…I could be wrong. Do you think I have done that? I am curious because I think you are objective.

  172. Can we be done with this issue and this impossibly long thread? It takes me almost 15 full seconds to scroll down to the bottom on my IPhone.

    The sentimentality surrounding this tragic temporary loss of Karen is comparable in magnitude to what the Republican Party might say if they lost Ronald Reagan to the Democrats. It’s quite amusing.

  173. JPat-

    It really doesn’t matter what I think. When words are tactless and disparaging remarks are as definitive as the sun coming up in the morning, expect to be challenged.

    I don’t hold grudges. I have had my share of tactlessness on this blog and have found that most are willing to forgive and move on. I like you, JPat. You seem to be a great father to your kids. My old man never had time to take me to one game. You are there for your family and it’s easy to tell just how much you love them. How could anyone not like a person like that?

  174. Gosh, karen, you should have said something! I don’t think any of us had any idea how you felt.

    Harvard, don’t worry, you’re still the king of predictions. Predicting karen’s return was right up there with predicting it’s gonna be dark tonight.

    elmo, you’re a good man. You’re officially on the mythical ‘someday at Nick’s’ list.

    Honestly I vote for this as the ‘unintentionally funniest’ thread ever on the Scoop. I actually snorted my drink out my nose on #211.

    karen…until next time.

  175. Harv, thanks. That made me smile! Man, we do everything with our kids and I mean everything. Thank you!

    Chet, why was 211 so funny to you?

  176. Chet- I have “intended” to be funny at several points and haven’t drawn a peep (post 196). But I agree, the karen saga is way more funny for the participants’ seeming unawareness of their own penchant for the dramatic.

    @Jpat: I agree with Harvard that Jpat oozes goodness and kindness…he may in fact be too good for Internet forums in general, which can represent the worst in humanity. The fact that he’s at the center if so many Scoop conflicts suggests that we aren’t ready or deserving of such a figure…kinda like in The Brothers Karamazov when Jesus comes to earth and they throw him in jail.

  177. Chet, on to a different topic cause I have to get home and take the kids to bball practice. I believe with every fast twitch muscle fiber in my body I could beat you on a mountain bike…even on a 2nd hand Huffy! In all reality though it makes sense to play basketball…we blog about IU (sometimes about IU anyway)and you living in the triangle bball state of NC so you name the game…21, HORSE, or one on one?

  178. I had a series of reconstructive surgeries on both shoulders in 2007 and 2008 (mountain biking hilarity). Broke off the ends of both AC joints, tore both labrums, and severed all the tendons in both rotator cuffs. The old ‘arms over my head’ thing isn’t what it used to be. Before we moved into the cabin I built a lighted full court bball court out back of my house (60′ X 50′). We had an incredible regular Sunday game. Lots of talent. Honestly, I’d have you puking your spleen up but it’s good to believe in yourself 😉 My wife can out ride most men and I live smack dab in the middle of mountain biking central. The ‘default car’ here is a Subaru with a bike rack.

  179. I predict I could take down every single blogger on here in a game of one-on-one hoops. Do you here that, Geoff? Bring your little stat purse down to Chet’s Deliverance Mountain cabin and he can dislocate his pinkie finger(the last remaining sound joint in his body) and write the final score using his favorite color of Crean’s crimson lipstick he uses to carefully outline his pucker criticisms no different than karen’s inferences about VJ and favoritism.

    Do not doubt Harvard’s crystal ball.

  180. I did check it out and used a throw away email address to register. It’s kinda sad. It’s a visually attract site with lots pretty graphics but only seems to have about 4 bloggers including karen (‘kk’). Most of the threads haven’t hadn’t any activity in months and they all pretty much consist of “Crean’s so stupid because…” and “I heard Cody is transferring…” A real untapped(?) Prozac market if there ever was one. It’s all quite civil, as karen noted, because everyone says the same thing. It almost reads like one person blogging to himself.

  181. The site is pretty mundane. Throw away email address, wish I’d thought of that before registering.

  182. In that we did not have Sheehey the 1st MICH game, I am wondering if we dont put him on Hardaway.
    Watford had 25pts last time, but I hope Elston has settled in to come in and really work the bigs of MICH. Also,
    Vic gets after Burke.

    Roth might get loose, if they double down on Zeller.
    VJ distribute, Pritchard is solid.
    I fell good about this one.

    Everyone perform when called on and give guys breathers, helps when we get to Purdue.

  183. Coming this fall to a theater near you…

    She….was a retired WNBA legend, searching for a purpose, in a lonely world. He….was the basketball-loving son of Irish immigrants, fighting for respect at on the mean courts of New York’s Rucker Park. Together, they would embark on a journey, that would show them that dreams…are more powerful…than differences.

    This summer, come see the story that critics are calling “Spellbinding” and what Dick Vitale has called “The most realistic, heart-warming basketball movie since ‘White Men Can’t Jump’.”

    Queen Latifah. Elijah Wood. “HOOPSTA.”

    (Rated PG-13 for occasionally disrespectful language)

  184. Harvard – its certainly possible that you could take me one-on-one… I’m not as quick as I used to be, and defense isn’t my strong suit. However, I do have my moments where I don’t miss. I am much more valuable in a team setting where I can pick my spots and set up the real scorers. I am also considerably better team defender than individual…

    Karen – I get the feeling that there are quite a few vocal posters on this site that are in your age demographic… Certainly not alone in the AARP eligible crew.

    HT – I did really like #196 and meant to say something today, but had a busy day of appts. I was going to say “very clever @ 3)”

    TO ALL – I will stop short of saying that Hoopsta sucks… But I can’t imagine myself spending any more time there. It just doesn’t have the activity level, the variety of opinions, the plethora of topics, or the quality journalism. The guy who hosts it seems to get in the way a little bit… There is not the paternal separation that I get from Dustin. That guy just goes down in the dirt and starts digging with all the riff raff that post. And he keeps posting the Crean sliding down into Purgatory picture.

  185. I’m sure you’d smoke me. I can offer up the quality of defense that frequently results in the need for medical attention. In all seriousness, when we had our weekly games more often than not someone would end up at the ER. One Sunday, while playing that “OK, just one more” game I snapped my left achilles tendon neatly in two. That was the last game I played on my home court as we moved before I was back in the game. If anyone is planing on having that injury I’d suggest you go in a different direction.

    Yes, I am a mess but I’ve got more scars than Robert Shaw in Jaws.

  186. JPat, [to Karen} “…not on here to stir rumor or gossip any more than I have been with Wilson…”. Absolutely hilarious and depraved. Do you read your own posts? If you do, you should have listened to Coach Mallory’s advice…”hit the books!”.

    Now…there is a rumor that there is some big-time bonding going on among posters who feel put-upon by those demanding accountability… are birds tweeting and fairies making twinkles with their wands????

  187. Did anyone else notice how strangely similar the paragraph structure, the odd
    breaks occurring in sentences that wrap them down to the next line prematurely, when
    reading the posts of HOOSIERPLUS and karen?

    I’ve never seen that glitch
    occur from any other posters. Odd it
    appears from two different bloggers on the same thread (Check out these posts: 26, 74, 98,
    119, 130, 140, 169).

    Extremely funny post(#230) from HT.

  188. Carla
    you ….can
    read this a little


    bad ……for

    Draymond …Green B
    left …knee.

  189. For Chet and HH…Interesting went to view said website and did not find any post regarding “transferring of Zeller” or the “Crean so stupid”… Why would you make that up…no need to respond because your behavior is nothing more than being internet bullies trying to rule the roost. Lying is one of the attributes of internet bullies… Posting comments on a blog of which has nothing to do with the blog/article post is a waste of space and kills any intelligent dialogue reqarding the post by the author. I have posted on this site since the days of Chris Korman and he would not have put up with your behavior. I am sure you will find Dustin will limit your ability to bully in the near future.

  190. Yeah… Nobody’s bullying around here. Apparently people aren’t allowed to disagree anymore. I didn’t see any threats, I didn’t see any swearing, I didn’t hear anyone saying that someone else had to go away… There were only, and are only, disagreements and issues with HOW statements have been made.

    Listen I’ve been posting on this site for about 3 months – Not very long (reading it much longer). Certainly I have seen my share of rebuttals and jabs from other posters because I write some challenging posts. I have had regulars like Harvard, Clarion, elmo, and even Chet come at me on a daily basis and in a more personal fashion than Karen has had to “deal” with… But I never once felt bullied. I understand that sometimes people just want to get under your skin to see how you react. Like Chet said earlier, my friends and I are about 10 times harsher than this with each other… It’s not even close.

    I’m not sure how people will take this post. I would like to say that I don’t believe that I have made a run at anyone in a personal matter unless I was initially provoked. I also have nothing resembling a hard feeling towards a single poster here… It’s a forum of Hoosier fans… It’s fun… A few people need to tighten up their belts a little, toughen up, and have a little more self-assurance. If you are that hurt by statements from anonymous (?) posters that don’t include personal insults, swears, or threats of any type… Well real life must just be miserable.

  191. Tsa, I can learn to live with everyone on this blog but until you stop talking down to me like you do…I think it will take a face to face one day…maybe we do boxing, without the gloves! You are a real piece of work!!!

  192. Tsa, I absolutely have never posted a thing on here that I did not believe was accurate and I have never and I will say it again…never tried to stir the pot on here. Not sure why I just wrote that…most likely was a waste of my time.

  193. J Pat,

    You are really worked up about the situation. People are playing you because they know it. You are not going to win, so why not drop the idea and move on?

    Not telling you what to do, just a suggestion.

    Good luck,


  194. Jay, you are right and thanks for the words…I have been smiling and joking at times and then sometimes somewhat serious so that is all on me as the reader cannot tell. I am not worked up right now..I can assure you. I was joking in post 245, trust me on that. Thanks again!!!

  195. JPat, I agree with Jay Gregg. At some point you gotta turn inward, man, and ask yourself “Why am I letting myself get so bothered by this message board?”

    Unfortunately the internet is not like face-to-face life, no matter how hard we may try to follow the same conventions. Most people simply will never treat you like they are talking to you in person, because at the end of the day, we are visual creatures…text in a box simply does not convey personhood. We need to accept that reality and move on.

    I admire your crusade to keep things “real,” but its tough to watch; its such an uphill battle that seems to be taking its toll on you every time you post.

    accept the facts and work on getting over it. You are an a one-man crusade to try

  196. Good Grief! This is a comment section for a blog entry not a forum. Read the blog entry by the writer and comment on it. Some of you kiddies need to find a play pen instead of creating one here. Some of you probably could not last in a forum where they actually have forum rules and tracking.

  197. HT, good point…not sure why I keep posting on any of it…only 2 people I am trying to convince. Thanks for taking the time…

  198. Dustin will have zero complaints about this thread. I just heard his weekly bonus ‘comment points earned’ has just gone into the category of a free Norelco shaver(now with SensoTouch 3D ®).

    Dear An Observer,

    Your implicating of my name to the quotes you posted(“transferring of Zeller” or the “Crean so stupid”)is completely erroneous. Those are not my quotes. I never went into the Hoopsta site. I only visited their home page and upon such visit had no desire to register. It was a cute home page..I simply loved the rural feel and the red barn siding. A little background banjo and a mooing cow wearing candy striped pants that says “We’re back!” would have been fun. When the registration process is complete, the music stops and the doors of hell open to Dan Dakich in bloodied overalls holding pitchfork.
    All joking aside, my only comments about Hoopsta(post #188) were general with a conveyance of doubt that it could come close to the coverage, journalistic quality, and full array of offerings(LiveChat, ScoopTalk, Hoosier Brunch) found on Scoop.

    I would expect you have some sort of other ax to grind in even bothering to come on this tread. If your intentions were genuine and of such deep concern with maintaining integrity in discussions, you should at least have done more than a half-a$$ attempt to get names associated with your attacks correct.

  199. Harvard, thanks for the personal letter but the only axe to grind is watching you and your compadre trying to brow beat posters. You are nothing more than a flammer with an inflated ego. I couldn’t care less about said site. I posted that response about your behavior not defending that site. I did go to that site and it is not a journalistic site; it is merely a forum. I did get your name correct; You have posted a flame or two in this thread. I think it is hilarious that you try to make this a forum when it is a blog site. You two are trying to rule the roost with you cutting remarks. Get over yourselves.

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