1. Frazier is completely overrated, he is the best player on a 10-11 team, that’s it. Yes he scores 17ppg, but he shoots 40% and takes a ton of shots. He averages 6.5 assists per game but turns it over 4 times per game. Penn State hasn’t beaten anyone except Illinois this season and in that game Frazier had 12 pts. I think TF is probably a nice kid but hearing people around the B1G talk you’d think he is carrying his team to victories or is 1st Team BigTen or whatever and that just isn’t true. He wouldn’t start at IU let alone at MSU, OSU, UM.

  2. Lou I don’t think you are serious. Frazier dusted every defender, until Oddie got him.

    He creates and plays pretty good defense. More interested in discussing our guys, but I’m glad Oddie was on him, because Frazier would have kept this game to close.

  3. That’s because he was looking to shoot and we defended his passing lane. We kinda baited him into the one man show.


    Better to be lucky than good sometimes. Good chance I’ll be making it down to Indy in a couple weeks if any of you guys actually want to get that beer we’ve been talking about.

  5. Disqualification/
    Disqualification – Fifth
    ejection – Single
    flagrant; second
    Men – Same as nFHS, except
    ejection on 2
    Class A or 3
    B technical foul
    Women – Same as nFHS
    after dQ
    direct technical foul
    charged to head coach
    Men – Flagrant technical foul
    charged to offender; also Class A
    to head coach
    Women – Flagrant technical to

    These are from the NCAA rules for Basketball. I do not think Will will have to miss a game. He did not throw any punches Coach Cheaney put a stop to that had him in a head lock. I also saw him pull him back. So lets hope he gets to keep playing…

  6. Still feel like we played uninspired ball in the first half. Thankfully CTC got them going in the second half. Still some mental errors that need corrected.

    As for the whole situation at the end of the game Glover should of been called for a flagrant foul. He clearly swung through with intent to drill Watford, there was no accidental play on the ball involved there. I also agree that it was good to see Sheehey stand up for his team mate. Jordy may be the leader, but Will is the grunt who everyone follows over the top.

  7. Did anybody else nice how often Chambers would give one of his players a ‘you’ve got to be the stupidest pile of crap I’ve ever met in my life’ look on the sideline?

    No wonder those guys disrespect other players.

  8. Didn’t notice it with Chambers but definitely noticed it with Tubby Smith, not only how he looked at his players but what he said to them and called them as well, wasn’t impressed…

  9. Geoff- no sympathy for NFL teams who advance because of the generosity/ stupidity of the refs. Lee Evans caught that ball for 6 pts. Period. I respect Brady, but these boys gotta Leo down in Indy.

  10. I thought Tubby’s was more of a “I hate you” look as opposed to Chambers “you’re unbelievably stupid” look. I wouldn’t appreciate either one.

  11. HT – your joking about the catch right? They have replay these days you know. It wasn’t even close… I know your probably just trying to get my goat.

    Should be a good game no matter which team it is.

  12. What was close? The “catch”?

    He didn’t get his second foot down before the ball came out. Didn’t make a football move. Didn’t complete the catch. He didn’t catch it.

    If he had caught it the review booth would have reversed the call…

  13. Your a fan. I’m not. I don’t care about either team. Whichever way they called it wouldn’t have been reversed.

    Could have gone either way.

  14. How about Derek Elston today? 6 boards in 11 minutes. Cody isn’t yet rebounding at all that impressive a clip given his size and athleticism, so those help. CWat and Vic are both generally doing a good job on the glass this year, though.

  15. Derek was very effective today. I like Derek and I think he doesn’t get the credit he deserves as an effective player off the bench. He’s a banger with a nice shot. He may not be all Big Ten but he’s a better big off the bench than a lot of teams can put out there.

  16. They review all those plays in the last two minutes… You really think if a play is close in the last two minutes that the booth doesn’t review it? It wasn’t reversed because it wasnt a catch…

  17. Elston did have some MAN-Sized rebounds in this game.That last reach in foul…given the score and time on the clock,would drive any coach mad.Like a lot of what I saw today from several players.Hope they regain some confidence.Sheehey has been missed and was a nice lift today.Oladipo seemed more focused and generally almost everyone contributed some good things.This is the kind of game we have gotten used to before the 3 game slump.

  18. statement from the league:

    “The ruling on the field of an incomplete pass was confirmed by the Instant Replay assistant, correctly, and as a result, there was no need to stop the game,” the league explained in a post-game statement. “The receiver did not get his second foot down in the end zone with possession, and as a result, it was an incomplete pass.”

    Statement from Lee Evans:

    … when reporters asked him if it was a catch. “Obviously it wasn’t,” he said . “It was an opportunity to go to the Super Bowl, and I let it go.”

    And the game commentators:

    Shannon Sharpe said that “in the National Football League, professional football players … you’ve got to make this play.” “He relaxed,” Sharpe found his own kind of certainty in that slow-motion replay. So did Phil Simms. “That was an incomplete pass,” the CBS color man declared authoritatively after watching Evans and Moore come together, slowly, in the end zone.

    So the league, the ex-players who were calling the game, and the player who dropped the TD all agree it wasn’t a catch…

  19. Davis, did you watch the Ravens missed field goal? Exactly, exactly what we wrote about…kicker’s plant foot badly placed and the ball follows it to miss. No Super Bowl. Replays show it clearly.

  20. I like Derek as long as we are honest about his role and his talent profile: he is Kurt Rambis without the headband (or Ron Perlman from Sons of Anarchy without the motorcycle). Once upon a time I remember him being a 4-star recruit that had nice touch around the rim and could stick the 18 foot jumpers with confidence, but those days seem to be gone

  21. By the way very happy for the football Giants. Always found them to be NY’s most likable team (along with the Rangers). Electric receiving corps, great pass rush…did everyone the favor a few years back of ending the Pats perfect season…what’s not to love?

  22. What’s funny is all I said was that it was very close. I never even said the call was wrong.

    No coffee after lunch for Geoff.

  23. The Giants can be very entertaining. They’ll stumble into the playoffs by the grace of Eli’s arm and suddenly they become the best team in football.

  24. You said it could have gone either way… And that it wouldn’t have been reversed either way.

    That’s what I disagree with. I agree with the league, the refs, the commentators, and the player involved in the drop – it wasn’t a catch. If it had been called a catch initially it would have been correctly overturned by the refs after review.

  25. That being said, I have a crappy feeling that we are going to lose again to the stinking Giants… This sucks already.

  26. There’s never much a comeback for that one Clarion, and I can’t blame people for feeling that way, although I thoroughly believe that every team pushes the envelop as far as they possibly can, they all cross the line, and all live in the grey areas hoping they can plead ignorance or lack of clarity in the rules.

    I understand the whole spy gate issue has turned people off, but I’m pretty sure we weren’t the only ones doing it, and they have had the best winning% in the NFL since then, so it certainly wasn’t much of a factor in their success.

    And before you go trying to equate this to other “scandals” – it wasn’t immoral or illegal, it was an unethical attempt to gain a strategic advantage. And in my estimation, since they won 17 games in a row after they got caught, they didn’t need it anyway.

  27. It most likely could have some immorality connected to it since “they didn’t need it anyway”. Even so every offensive play caller in the NFL now covers his face when informing the QB of the play. That did not transpire till after Spygate was uncovered and revealed. By the way how much was the fine for the embarrassment of not cheating?

  28. So… A lot of things have to go right to win a Super Bowl and a lot of very good teams don’t do it. However they have been to (now) 2 Super Bowls since then, won 3 out of 5 Division titles, and are 65-19 including playoffs. So what was your point?

  29. Clarion – that is a completely false statement you made about coaches covering their mouths. It has been common practice since the 1990’s. Spy Gate occurred on the first game of 2007…

    Here’s an article from 2001:


    Wired this seems to insinuate that teams have been doing a version of Spy Gate for quite some tIme. But then again every already knew that.

  30. Geoff- are you a real Pats fan with a connection to the Mass. area, or do you like them because they are good? Not trying to ask in a snide way, just curious.

  31. The NYT, Washington Post, and the Wall Street Journal have all taken a sad turn. The Post used to face down the most powerful to print the truth. Not any more. The Wall Street Journal used to put opinions on the opinion page, now they pretend their opinions are news. The NYT is slowly becoming the New York Post.

    Dustin is the only one I trust anymore. Actually, I think Dustin is very much old school. Too many ‘journalists’ these days want to be the story.

  32. About reading lips…

    Speech reading (what laymen call lip reading) is nothing like they portray on television. No one does it very well without abundant context.

    Here’s an example. Say the sounds “mop”, “bip”, and “pom”. They all look exactly the same on the lips but sound nothing alike. Now multiply that by a hundred at a very fast rate.

    You might be able to pick up plays a little because you have an idea of what is going to be said.

  33. So clarion are you trying to say that the NYT isn’t reliable, but it’s completely reasonable that they can predict the future and write an article in 2001 about a phenomenon that doesn’t occur until 2007?!?

    So they were making up the fact that basically all coaches cover their mouths… Interesting theory.

  34. Chet, Back when I traveled more heavily than today, each day I alternated mornings between the WSJ and USA Today. I felt I was getting the broadest expanse of landscape to knowledge of current events, socioeconomics, busines trends and deep thinkers available to me at such a cheap price. Today(as I have stated before)I would not vile fish by wrapping then in a paper published in a town of over 4,000 people. There is no attempt to report anymore, it is as you say to make news for the sake of personal notoriety. The Press as a part of free speech is a sad state of affairs.

  35. They stated matter of factly there was only a trend(meaning small %). My statement accurately said, after Belichick’s spygate, every coach calling plays to the field practices the cover method. It could not be clearer as everyone is using English. Yes indeed the NYT’s is no longer reliable and can be considered a rag.

  36. My point was that I think the embarrassment of being the team that got caught may be the reason why…. The best way to show that it didn’t matter that they were cheating would be to win the super bowl and they haven’t got over the hump since then. It will be remembered as they didn’t win a super bowl after spy gate not remembered as how many games they won in the regular season. Just as their undefeated season won’t be remembered as much as the super bowl loss. Just the way I think it’s perceived. Nobody remembers Scott norwoods made field goals. I have great respect for the pats, but I think years from now that will be the perception

  37. Clarion – another false, or at least misleading statement by you… The article insinuates that lip-reading is a small %, but the “matter of fact statement” about mouth-covering was, “Then why are so many who call plays from the sideline shielding their mouths When sending in plays?”

    That is not stating matter of factory that it is only a trend… The words “SO MANY” we’re used to describe the number of coaches.

    So once again, I have shown evidence to support my side, and you are simply relying on your memory and nothing else. I have a memory too, and it clearly remembers that covering mouths was the norm prior to spy gate.

    I have no allegiance to NYT or any other paper… It doesn’t matter what their politics are when quoting NFL sources.

  38. Chet, appreciate the compliment, but I’m not even going to act like I’m in the same stratosphere of anyone in the New York Times’ sports section let alone its foreign correspondents and the people they actually use to cover wars and the world.
    My journalistic $0.02, the reason journalism gets a bad name these days is that the line between opinion writers and straight journalists is too often blurred. I’m not saying this to diss columnists (and certainly not to diss Kartje or Graham or Kellenberger or Korman for that matter)because they can do phenomenal work and the leeway they have to stray from pure objectivity can allow what they write to have more impact. At the end of the day, the people that write opinion pieces are the ones that get their faces on TV and they are the the prism through which the entire profession is judged. There are still a lot of people most of us have never heard of doing superhuman work in this business and a lot of them work at the New York Times and the Washington Post because those are two of the only entities left that can truly cover the world.
    As for the editorial pages, well, that’s a different story, because it does appear to me that papers both sides of the aisle are trying to align themselves too much with one political party or the other. But I guess my point is, when it comes to the biggies, when you say “that paper is a rag,” you really mean “I strongly disagree with the political position taken by that paper’s editorial page and I believe it effects the rest of the paper.”

  39. Wow. Love the discussion, but you guys push around a little wind enough to build a desert storm from a camel fart. Can I play?

    What have you done for my lately? The Indy Colts and their tap dancing QB wouldn’t even have their one Super Bowl title without Indiana’s very own Rex Grossman doing his best impersonation of Verdell Jones and handing it to them on a full plate of errant goofy passes, zero awareness, and a slew of unforced bumbling/fumbling turnovers.

    And talk about slithery and immoral conduct…Could one imagine the Chicago Bears packing up their team in the middle of the night and moving to Lincoln, Nebraska?

    Holding a championship football game in Indianapolis is akin to holding a presidential debate in the Watergate Hotel.

  40. Right or wrong excluding patriots fans if a son asks a father why the coaches cover their mouths what would come up in the explanation as an example. Especially when they sell bellicheat tshirts on the Street going into the stadium.

  41. IU grad – those are fair points… But I don’t think any of them are embarrassed over it. Certainly not the players, since it wasn’t a player involvement thing. I doubt that the Pats will be remembered mainly for spy gate. It is also yet to be seen whether or not they win another SB with Belichick (and Brady). For the record I am fully expecting to lose this one.

    Also, not that many of you care, here is a pretty “matter of fact” statement regarding the videoing of opponents:

    After footage from the actual tape was aired on Fox NFL Sunday on September 16, former Dallas Cowboys head coach Jimmy Johnson claimed, “This is exactly how I was told to do it 18 years ago by a Kansas City Chiefs scout. I tried it, but I didn’t think it helped us.” Johnson also said, “Bill Belichick was wrong because he videotaped signals after a memo was sent out to all of the teams saying not to do it. But what irritates me is hearing some reactions from players and coaches. These players don’t know what their coaches are doing. And some of the coaches have selective amnesia because I know for a fact there were various teams doing this. That’s why the memo was sent to everybody. That doesn’t make [Belichick] right, but a lot of teams are doing this.”

    Belichick was wrong for doing it, because he did after a memo was sent out not to do it. The memo was sent out because lots of teams were doing it. It was a known fact in inner circles.

    I equate it to this… When you are 17 and living under your parents roof you have to play by their rules. So your parents say you’re not allowed to drink… Well you think that getting a little loose helps you get laid… Doesn’t mean it actually helps you, but you think it improves your chances, and hey, all your friends are drinking. Well your parents think you might be sneaking out your window at night and staying out later than they thought, so they sit you down and make it very clear that you better not be screwing around or there will be consequences… Next month they catch you rolling into your window smelling like beer…. Grounded. Did drinking ever help you get laid? Not sure, some nights you got laid, other nights you didn’t. Was it because you were good looking, the chick was frisky, or because you dropped nasty game after a few drinks. Can’t be sure.

    That’s pretty much spy gate in a nutshell.

  42. The Lincoln Bears….. The monsters of the corn row! They could do the super bowl square dance instead of the shuffle

  43. IU grad – another fair point. And I certainly agree that it is the easiest example to come up with today. But that question I’m sure was asked plenty before spy gate because it was common practice before spy gate. And since there was no spy gate yet dads had to come up with another answer…

  44. Geoff I wasn’t saying that the players are embarrassed or should be and if I’m understanding what you said I also know that it didn’t make the plays for the players on the field. I’m with you that other teams (probably all) do the same. But as with so many things like recruiting violations in college athletics or steroids in baseball its the people that get caught that pay the ultimate price with legacy. Fair or not. A lot of times it doesn’t even matter if they are cleared of whatever charges they have been accused of because the name has already been dragged through the mud and the damage has been done

  45. On that note I can’t even imagine how hard it is for big time college football and basketball programs to keep their programs clean or not get caught whichever way you want to look at it. There are just so many things that can happen that would not even necessarily be something you could control.

  46. Yeah that’s a good assessment, but I am not convinced that the Pats legacy is soiled. I think that Belichick is seen as one of the best coaches ever and Brady as one of the best QB’s ever. I think that is the legacy. Will spy gate always be brought up? Yeah to some extent, but I don’t hear it talked about at all by analysts now. I think it mainly gets reserved for getting under the skin of Pats fans. The fans of our biggest rivals like to bring it out every chance they get, but I think that is about the extent of it.

    The view on performance enhancing players in baseball has softened too over time, especially now that it was shown to be so widespread. The real angst is reserved for those players that continue to lie and deny their involvement despite overwhelming evidence. Belichick never denied that he was doing it.

  47. IU grad – yeah, as long as they aren’t completely sleazy I don’t even care. There are way bigger problems in the world than selling rings for tattoos, or giving a guy a job with interesting hours, etc…

    I think the NCAA is as corrupt and hypocritical as the government (regardless of party lines), so to care about what they deem as impermissible… Puh-leeeeeze.

  48. Probably too soon to talk about but do you think along the same lines with paterno? With the scandal being of a much more serious matter

  49. See comment section in “Our Menality is Excellent Right Now” starting with post #30… We had a pretty lively discussion about it yesterday on that thread. I think (besides being a vocal Pats fan) its why Clarion is coming after me today… A rivalry renewed.

  50. I’m glad I read that. I was beginning to think that I was the only one that thinks that way. If you watch Sportcenter or big ten network you know what I mean.

  51. CNN handed the Republican nomination to Gingrich by playing the oldest trick in the books: the manufacture of a “gotcha moment” where suddenly real issues are put on the back-burner and elections are manipulated to hinge on soundbite moments. It’s hard to say if Gingrich was involved in any collusion with the media giant, but I little doubt CNN knew exactly what they were doing in moving national opinions in the direction their own desired outcome.

    I don’t think small town journalists, especially when it comes to manufacturing “gotcha moments” to manipulate opinion to the desires their personal tastes, are not just as capable in being slithery beyond comprehension.

    Those empowered to deliver news can create storms where none would otherwise brew. Let’s not be naive and believe the same does not go on in hometown newspapers in any lesser degree than what is produced by the manipulative tactics of the mega news corporations and nationally distributed elite papers. You don’t need personal opinion columns and editorial sections to move the public in the direction of your agenda. Editorial is the detour of true agenda. The slimiest tactics in journalism and broadcast are very, very subtle. Nothing of truth is rarely a motivator to what is brought before our eyes or made “newsworthy.” It’s all about stirring pots and ego-tripping theatre; all prearranged in the offices and boardrooms of bottom-line motivated charlatans where relevancy and viewership outweigh honest reporting and balance. To go into the profession requires an assumption the total ignorance your followers…And has history taught us much to dispel the contempt those in control of the news have for their audience? We buy into every morsel fed.

    With the downfall of truth and the manipulative efforts the press to dominate will come the disintegration of our institutions and the faith our freedoms can ever offer real justice. Watching CNN’s Erin Burnett in a tight skirt licking the boots of Don Trump in a one-on-one interview is what every young female journalist should aspire.

  52. One last thing that I think plays into the legacy of this Pats era is Robert Kraft… I believe he is absolutely revered within the league and that bleeds into the commentary you hear about this team. I think most fans probably see Kraft as a man of character and a huge reason the lockout was settled without missing any games.

  53. Interesting comment. I’m not sure whether there was ever a ‘downfall’ of truth, though. The whole notion of objective reality has always only ever been an ideal. Sometimes I wonder when people talk about news outlets these days as ‘suddenly’ corrupted by modern times, as if they weren’t the same flawed institutions 30 years ago. Newspapers have always been run by people; people, naturally, have personal perspectives and interpretations that will always effect their presentation of an issue.

  54. Yeah I’m having a hard time watching any ESPN right now, and I had to change the channel on my Sirius because the “Mad Dawg” sports guys wouldnt stop talkin about what a great coach he was and how he affected so many young men’s lives in positive ways… (ironic choice of words)

    Like I give a crap now.

  55. Sportcenter has been showing a picture of Sandusky and his statement as if that guy should be one to give perspective on how great a man is morally…. It makes me absolutely sick

  56. Sometimes I wonder when people talk about news outlets these days as ‘suddenly’ corrupted by modern times, as if they weren’t the same flawed institutions 30 years ago.

    Maybe just as flawed, but without the narrow dominance of business tycoons born from light bulb, billboard advertising, and amusement park companies controlling every major artery and every tiny bladder the pumping out of “news.” The final result is a heavy yellow stream of piss and impurities that give about as much nourishment to thought a Tom Crean water bottle.

  57. Hate to change the subject to basketball, I haven’t seen Wisconsin play this year. How do we match up with them and what are the chances that we finally get a quality big ten road W

  58. One of the more frightening examples of the shifting lines in the newsroom was the court case of the 2 reporters for a FoxNews affiliate in Florida who were fired for refusing to knowingly lie on air. The case made it to the Supreme Court where they lost their case. The 5-4 majority (of course) wrote, among other points, in the decision that the station was under no obligation to tell the truth when reporting the ‘news’.

    I’m sure Dustin knows all about this case.

  59. FYI, Geoff isn’t the only coach around here…Back in the day, I used to coach swimming to a young tadpole named Mark Spitz.

    Was the deciding Florida judge named Chad?

  60. Perhaps some reporters(?) don’t have a grasp on their subject matter. However, they plow ahead and file their report. I’ve seen articles in both mediums(tv&print) and both locally and nationally with which I had firsthand knowledge. It was like they were covering something different from what had actually happened. There did not appear to be an intent to deceive anyone. They simply did not know their subject matter well enough. Since then, I view the media in a more inquisitive mind.

  61. Congratulations for taking your turn at not making any sense as in post #55. The golden nugget is less than a hand full did it in 2001 vs. all today. I ask again how much was that fine for not cheating?

  62. Clarion – why do you keep making false statements. Saying something over and over again with zero evidence doesn’t make it true! The facts are that coaches were doing this – IT WAS THE NORM – prior to spy gate… Nowhere in the article does it say that “a handful” we’re doing. It is very clear in stating that the normal way of conducting business was to cover their faces – PERIOD!

    Post #68 is not a compliment to myself. It is the answer to post #67.

    You obviously need to be more thorough when you read or you will continue to make these mistakes.

  63. You’ve proved my statements false exactly 0 times. How many practiced the cover method in 2001? I would like to know that #. Or is it not supportive of your conjecture? How much was that fine for not cheating? Lots of Q’s you are avoiding. Provide some facts.

  64. Also, I never said that Belichick didn’t cheat. I said that he wasn’t the only coach/team using illegal video – and that, in fact, insiders know that most teams were doing it. Therefore, one can come to the conclusion that the Pats weren’t gaining an advantage that other teams were not, since the other teams were engaging in identical practices. That is a far cry from saying they didn’t cheat.
    It Is saying that their success wasn’t a product of their cheating.

    And as far as the fine goes, it was 500,000 and a first round pick – pretty hefty – but it hasn’t kept the Pats down, and a lot of that fine was political and personal.

  65. I already gave you one article that clearly stated that “so many” signal callers were doing it in 2001. Apparently you are going to pretend that never happened. Here is another article from Ric Reilly in 2002..


    The pertinent single quote from this one being in the second paragraph. Stating, “coaches are Covering their mouths when they send in plays because they are suspicious that thieves are watching.”.

    It doesn’t say ” a few coaches” or “a small group of coaches”… It says coaches – a blanket statement.

    In was the norm in 2001 and it was the norm in 2002. There are now 2 articles proving my point and zero supporting evidence for you.

  66. Elmo – really good point…

    MSU is now 7-4
    Duke is now 9-3
    OSU is now 8-3
    UNC is now 7-3
    Florida is now 7-4
    UConn is now 5-4!

    Oh wait what was your point again?

  67. =”0″…and I stated ALL coaches after spygate…keep backing up, you look good baking up…

  68. Clarion post #44 – “Even so every offensive play caller in the NFL now covers his face when informing the QB of the play. That did not transpire till after Spygate was uncovered and revealed.”

    False – it was the norm in 2001 and in 2002 as proven by articles written at that time.

    Clarion post #53 – “They stated matter of factly there was only a trend(meaning small %).”

    False – the articles stated matter of factly that it was THE NORM for play callers to cover their mouths.

    How about you prove that “every” coach is doing it now or post-spy gate… You won’t find any data to support the exact number because, just like in 2002, there was no one that cared to keep track of the exact number or %.

    There is only one side of this argument with supporting evidence and it ain’t you…

  69. HT – sorry I didn’t see your question about the Pats until just now… Yes, I live in southern Maine, which is hard core Red Sox, Pats, Bruins, Celtics area. I am a fan of the Pats and Celts, but not the Sox, and I don’t care about hockey. I have lived here off and on since 1982, so long enough to gain some allegiances. For the record, I am also a FSU football fan because my parents taught their from 1983-90, when they were at their most dominant… and I was pretty young and impressionable. I went to HS in Grapevine, TX – who many of you travelers may know – but for others it is just north of Dallas (DFW land is in G-vine), and we were Rangers season ticket holders when Nolan Ryan was there with all the road heads.

    So I am a Hoosier basketball, Pats, FSU football, Celtics, Rangers fan. By far my favorite, most passionate, and deepest allegiance is to Hoosier basketball. Nothing else is even a close second.

  70. ………………BS………………….but keep trying……backing up becomes you……………….

  71. Geoff, I don’t want to come within a country mile of this spat, and I’m certainly not taking any sides, but I can’t help but notice that, when you get into these all too frequent interactions, you seem to have a real need to have people tell you that you are right.

    It doesn’t mean anything. Let it go, man.

  72. “By not often”, now that is sensible. Keep at it, you may get there, if you back up far enough.

  73. Come on Chet, this is like watching the irresistible force against the immovable object. Logic, reason and statistics versus deep-seeded conviction. Is there any amount of information on Earth on any topic that can make Clarion change his mind? I’m fascinated.

  74. Geoff- a real collage of sports allegiances for sure. Don’t know if I could pull that off myself- for me allegiances are intimately tied to where you live and go to school.

    Dustin- In case to have forgotten recently JPat was able to pull of a small miracle, by getting Clarion to at least listen to his Wilson worries. That was the first time I’ve ever seen Clarion come close to reaching across the aisle. It was impressive and not easily forgotten.

  75. I predict Geoff Foreman’s arms will turn to jello and he’ll taste the canvas in the 8th. Clarion Ali is currently in his rope-a-dope mode, but beware, he packs a wicked ‘Right’ wit.

    Or is this a fantasy Shaq vs Chamberlain battle? Bulldozer vs. Bullshi##er…?

  76. 14% tax rate on 42 million dollars in income is CRIMINAL.

    No wonder we can’t fix health care, take care of the elderly, provide more disadvantaged a chance for college, and keep a roof over our veterans’ heads. How can monsters of wealth look straight into the eye of a camera and ask for our vote? CRIMINAL.

  77. HfH,

    While your indignation is understandable. Who writes the tax laws? Who writes laws?

    Did you know:

    1. Cuban cigars are illegal in the US? Of course you did!
    2. An American citizen is not even supposed to enjoy a Cuba cigar in Canada or another country where they are legal? Did you know that?
    3. A US Congess person is expempt from the law so a Congress person may enjoy a Cuban cigar while visiting another country.Did you know that?

    14% if you know the loop holes, no problem

  78. Criminal? Gents capital gains is not a loophole. It is available to anyone. I pay 15% on my capital gains. Many of you have folks(particularly if retired)who pay that rate. What you are forgetting about is that investment money earning a gain was initially income(pay, salary)before it became an investment and was subsequently taxed when earned at a higher rate. Like tax paid on interest earned, maybe the Q should be, why is it taxed twice? We must get rid of a tax code written around special interests, all 72k+ pages.

  79. Chet, I understand what you’re saying… It would be nice if people understood reason from time to time, and just admit im right 😉 In this case, I don’t really care too much if he thinks I’m right on the spyate or Belichick thing, I know there too many deep-seeded feelings when it comes to cheating and/or your rivals. I would however like to see Clarion either back up a claim with some facts or admit that he was full of sh*t and move on to the next topic… He won’t do either.

    Clarion – “but not often”… Sorry I type on an iPad and the auto-type sometimes has a mind of its own. I am often in the middle of work and between appts so I don’t ave adequate time to check and correct. Clever of you to once again come at me and avoid the topic at hand.

  80. HT – I may not be understanding you correctly, but to be clear I did live in all the places I have allegiances.

    While I didn’t go to school at IU, generations of my families have, including all 4 of my parents. I would have gone to IU, but I really wanted to play college ball and wasn’t nearly good enough to play there. I lived in Bloomington, Maine, Tallahassee, and Dallas (area), and have now settled back in Maine. I still have the majority of my family in IN and visit regurlarly.

    Could you stop being a Hoosier fan if you moved a thousand miles away? Me neither…

  81. Chet – to expand on that slightly… I love a debate. I am not necessarily looking for someone to tell me I’m right, but when people tell me I’m wrong it would be nice for them to back it up with something. Generally that doesn’t happen. It’s actually why I enjoy my chats with Harvard so much. We don’t always see eye to eye, but Harvard always makes an attempt to prove a point, not just make one. He is good for a story, a quote, a poem, a video, or some other anecdotal evidence to support his thoughts. Most people just make a claim and then bounce… Something like, “George Bush was the best president ever… Out.”

  82. Geoff-

    Appreciate those kind words. I think you bring some great insight and passion to the discussions on Scoop. We’ve disagreed at times, but by no means does that changes my feelings on how much more interesting the basketball chat has become by having you here. And contrary to Elmo’s opinion, Chet also contributes a great deal and has quite the IQ for hoops. And Clarion knows his way around the block. I’m afraid of Clarion. I usually just do a drive-by jab at him(poke fun at Donald Trump or some other liberal he likely adores) and then run to another thread rather than try to debate him. He knows too much shi# about all kinds of shi#. He’s like a pit bull..He won’t let go.

  83. Didn’t mean to forget you, Tsao. Unfortunately for all you Yacht Club members, Tsao’s generous and supportive words are a big reason I’ve stuck around here. You can all blame Tsao’s kind heart for having to deal with me.

    Chet has also been very kind when I’ve gone off on rants or lashing out because I’m feeling down. I’m very lucky to have stumbled upon the decent and understanding friends I’ve found on Scoop.

  84. About that ‘double taxation’…

    While that is more or less true for people like you and me, who did invest our earned income, it’s not true for the Paris Hiltons, Mitt Romneys and John Kerrys of the world. They started off the game cashing in capital gains checks. They skipped over the ‘earning and investing’ part. That is the economic class that has obscene amounts of capital gains and no earned income.

  85. Paris Hilton is not a concern because nobody cares whether she poops, pukes or bleeds. Unlike Kerry and the generations of Kennedys +, none produced $100000.00 of GDP w/o family $. Romney has. He did not have to, but he did. 14%(after deductions available to everyone) given to Uncle Sam, 10% to his faith and 15% donated to charity; tell me he did not do his do. Run at the mouth Biden gave up $361.00 to charity. Yet, with all his +’s I still do not know if MR is the right choice for our time. I guess that is what primaries are for.

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