Crean, Calipari turning down rhetoric for game

If you were hoping Tom Crean and John Calipari would continue the back and forth jabs they’ve been throwing at each other since the first Indiana-Kentucky matchup, you’ll be disappointed.

The long-time close friends have been getting each other’s fan bases riled up all year by tweaking each other over the result of the first game. Crean sent cracks back at Kentucky’s players for saying Christian Watford’s 3-pointer was a lucky shot, suggesting that the scoreboard tells the story at the end of the day. Calipari thanked ESPN for using Watford’s 3-pointer for motivation. Crean said that the best part about that was “it goes in, every time.”

But with the rematch approaching, Crean and Calipari both indicated that they plan on toning it down this week and trying not to overplay the angle.

“I don’t plan on doing much of that this week,” Crean said. “… Sometimes that’s just to be combative back. I’m not into all that competition and one-upmanship and stuff like that. That’s not really what our friendship’s based on, but if people have fun with it, that’s OK, too. See I don’t have 8 million followers on Twitter like he has — or allegedly has. See, I tweaked him. I don’t want to try to keep up with him.”

Instead, Crean and Calipari spent much of their press conferences complimenting their teams and each other. They’ve known each other since 2001 when Crean was at Marquette and Calipari returned to college coaching and took the Memphis job.

“I’ve got a lot of respect for him,” Crean said. “Even if I didn’t know him very well, I would put him up with anybody as far as a basketball coach. I remember when we were in Conference USA together when he had come to Memphis. I learned more watching his game tapes even when we weren’t in competition that helped me in the sense of spacing, misdirection, defensive things, trapping, things of that nature. Just by watching his game tape. I went into that league, 33, I think was my age, and Denny Crum, Bob Huggins in that league, Bobby Lutz, then it was Rick Pitino, John Calipari in that league. It was a total clinic every time you’d watch game tape. John, I think the biggest thing, he just continues to evolve in so many ways with his basketball. As good as he is and as much talent as he has as a coach and with his team, he’s constantly asking questions, looking to adjust. …I learn as much from watching him coach as much as anybody out there.”

Crean said he’s particularly impressed with Calipari’s coaching job this year. Obviously, the Wildcats have a ton of talent. Freshman forward Anthony Davis is a favorite for national player of the year honors, and he and swingman Michael Kidd-Gilchrist and point guard Marquis Teague were three of the top five recruits in the Class of 2011 according to Guard Doron Lamb and forward Terrance Jones were ranked No. 13 and No. 21 respectively in the Class of 2010.

Calipari has generally worked with rosters that loaded in his time at Kentucky, but Crean said this group is more impressive because of the way they move the ball. The Wildcats have 483 assists on 990 field goals this year.

“John is such a good coach for a lot of different reasons,” Crean said. “But maybe this year more than ever, that team really, really shares the basketball. When you look at the talent on that team, and when you look at the upside of that team and where some of those players are just really scratching the surface of where they’re gonna be in basketball in their careers, and he’s got them moving the ball like that. That’s really, really strong. I imagine that’s hard to do. He’s done a phenomenal job. I think that’s one of the reasons they’ve improved. I think that’s one of the reasons they’ve won so many games and they’ve won so many games in a row.”

Crean said he thinks his team hasn’t had a problem dealing with the hype at all in terms of the rematch and of figuring out the game plan. One problem they have had, however, is getting back used to life on the Eastern time zone after spending Monday-Saturday on the West Coast.

“We’re still trying to recover from West Coast time,” Crean said. “We were out there a week, and I’m glad we did, because it allowed us to really get entrenched with what we were trying to do and get our bodies where it needed to be. Well, there’s a flip side to it. People can think it’s easy. It’s one thing to get off a plane and go about business. It’s a whole other thing to have all this surrounding, but they’ve gotta get their bodies back, back in school and be playing at a high level against as good a team as there is the country. We just have to try to get through the process on that, but they’re very even-keel. They’re very locked in.”

NOTE: Hoping to turn this into a bigger and more nuanced story later — mostly because I’m trying to figure out how exactly to write a story about a coach and his religion without it appearing that the newspaper is endorsing said religion —  but figured I’d share this quote.Crean said in Portland he thought this season had made him a better coach and a better person. I asked him on Tuesday to elaborate.

“I think it’s constant,” Crean said. “I think if you’re not getting better, it’s like anything else, you get worse. You owe it to a lot of people. You owe it to yourself. You owe it to your family. You owe it to your team. When you coach and when we were having success at Marquette, I don’t think we ever took it for granted. I don’t think I ever worked that way. We were always pushing. Always pulling, always hungry, but you get here and you find it’s a lot harder to get because of what we’re dealing with and things are a lot harder to come by in the sense of winning games and getting your team where it needs to be and you realize that you’ve gotta be clicking on all cylinders. It’s never just about talent. It’s never just about lack of talent. It’s about everything being in place. I think that’s what we kept pushing for all the time. Just to make sure, ‘OK, as we get this team better, as they keep improving, let’s make sure we’ve got everything moving in the right direction so when we do get better, we didn’t miss it over here and we didn’t miss it over there. I think it’s the same way in your life. You’ve gotta have spiritual leadership. You have to have it in your own life. You have to have it for your family. You have to have it for your team. Because you’re going through so many hard times that have so little to do with the result on the court. The result on the court is what everybody sees. It’s the process, and it’s how hard it is to get through that process and there’s gotta be belief. There’s absolutely no way around that, in my mind, without having just an incredible faith and belief in God that he’s going to help see you through it, that there’s a plan for it. That you’ve gotta help him guide you to build on your tools. You learn along the way like I said the other day that he expects you to do the work. It’s not like you come out and say, ‘I feel like I’m a better Christian, so things will be easier.’ No, it doesn’t mean anything. It could be harder. It could be a lot harder. But let’s not try to figure it out, let’s just make sure we do all the work and we’ve got everything in place and you keep your priorities straight. I’d like to think that in the last couple of years, we’ve made strides in a lot and I think that would be one of them. You really do realize when you’re in some fights like we’ve been in to build up that you’re certainly not doing it by yourself. You may not see who’s helping you, but he’s there.”

AUDIO: Tom Crean Part 1

AUDIO: Tom Crean Part 2

AUDIO: Remy Abell

AUDIO: Cody Zeller

AUDIO: Derek Elston

AUDIO: Christian Watford



  1. DD,I look forward to your nuanced story about a coach and his religion (without it appearing that the newspaper is endorsing said religion). I’m fine with coach Crean being a religious man but I’m really tired of hearing about it from him (and his tweets). Personally I think it’s inappropriate because I think religion and faith is a private matter.

    Crean’s quote, I think, verges on saying our winning is some sort of God ordained destiny. I get nervous when he says things like that and when he says we’ve gotta have “spiritual leadership.” I’m actually becoming concerned that the next scandal IU faces will have something to do with a player or players being ostracized because they aren’t religious enough or of the “right” religion. Seriously.

  2. Dustin, I can see the dilemma with building a story around that quote.

    But what I will say is that’s an incredibly healthy attitude, in my opinion, about how religion affects sports. I can’t tell you how horribly irritating it is when athletes/coaches seem to attribute plays, wins, or championships to divine intervention, as if the other team had no people of faith on it. Just saying.

  3. I find all the talk of God with this team as offensive. I will forever cheer for the young men that wear cream and crimson, but I would by lying if I acted like many of the statements in that last paragraph did not turn my stomach.

    I used to get criticized on here for bringing up the Twitter stuff..I think it’s obvious now, as it was obvious to me then, that our coach wants to bring his Christian faith out of the private realm his own living room and into the halls our basketball program. I don’t think the pressure to put that one young men is fair. I believe they should come to IU with the freedom to believe what they want to believe.

  4. Boomer, I obviously disagree, although we’re coming from the same place. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with what Crean said, nor do I think it’s wrong for him to Tweet on his personal account. However, I get what you’re saying with the fear of players being ostracized for not being of the same religion, or even due to degree of faith. I’m extremely sensitive to issues like that, and if there were ever evidence of that, I would come down on it, hard. As would others. But that hasn’t happened, and along with my earlier post, I just don’t have an issue. If anything, I wish more people in sports would think along those lines.

  5. Seriously Boomer, you missed the entire point on what Crean said. He is tweeting, you are receiving and reading. It would be impossible for him to tweet what you want. So, if you don’t respect his freedom of speech, thought, religion then it is up to you to stop reading him. Our Constitution literally guarantees the right to speak, read, write, think, and practice whatever religious/spiritual thought we want without fear of interference. Crean is motivated by his beliefs, you should be ashamed of attempting to limit or silence them. People gladly literally die- proudly- to guarantee this does not happen in America.

    DD, you write about the entirety of Tom Crean, religion and all. Don’t deny me the right to his thoughts, his ideas, his values and his beliefs.(I would think the same thing about yours). To do so would interfere with and deny my rights and fail your obligation as a reporter of people, society and events, some of who believe in God and some of who don’t. You can not a-priori deny it, you would not only be putting a muzzle on Crean, you would be dictating to me and all other readers about what/who Crean is/should be about.

    For good measure and your enjoyment. Amen.

  6. My hs coach was, IMHO, a hypocritical POS, but I’ll give him this, our pre-game prayers consisted of, ‘let us do our best and don’t let anyone get hurt.’

    Of course, it might have held more weight had he let injured player leave the field.

    Bill Griffith…Fort Wayne…hypocritical bastard.

    That will probably have to be deleted but it felt good to post it.

  7. LOL… Chet, he (Griffith) coached in my hometown too (Connersville)… and suffice it to say… if he left town on a motorcycle, he would not have left any friends behind ! 🙂

  8. “I’m actually becoming concerned that the next scandal IU faces will have something to do with a player or players being ostracized because they aren’t religious enough or of the “right” religion. Seriously.”

    What a silly thing to worry about.

  9. I think the Coach’s comments are absolutely tremendous. The only time he mentioned a specific religion was the reference to someone assuming that because you’re a better Christian that life is easy. He isn’t endorsing any specific religion, nor downplaying any religion. If his tweets bother you, then ignore them. Because he is the basketball coach of a university does not mean that he speaks in every single moment as the mouth of IU. I applaud the choice to speak up and recognize God in this work. (Notice he didn’t say what God’s name is nor did he say it’s a specific thing.) Hopefully everyone can get behind this type of comment and appreciate it for what it is.

  10. i worry about having a head coach who puts his faith in and, to a great degree, entrusts his his program’s future in his imaginary friend. he works for an institution of higher learning and he espouses devine creation. that means he rejects the scientic evidence of evolution. how can you do that at a university? it is ignorance and does not reflect well on indiana university.

    when crean leads the team in prayer, how many people in that locker room are forced to pretend they believe and are made very uncomfortable. the university needs to tell crean to shut up and keep his religious beliefs to himself. what he is doing is against the law in any other field. can you imagine if your boss made you gather in prayer constantly and credited god for business success?

    consider the possibility that recruits won’t play for him because they are smart enough to not believe in make believe.

  11. There are even coaches who make a religion out of winning and/or losing. Those live and die in Kentucky.

  12. Fellas,
    Let me first say that I’m not entirely sure where I’m going to go with this here or for that matter if I’m actually going to do anything. It’s obviously a delicate issue and I think to properly explore it requires a lot of space and time and for that matter, opportunity to discuss these things with him further. Maybe I can get enough out of him from upcoming press conferences to write something fair and serviceable. Maybe I’m going to need a sitdown with him in the future and maybe he won’t be willing to give me that. I’m not making any promises here that there will actually be a story someday. I thought this quote was worth sharing considering that in press conferences and on television this week, he went beyond Twitter to address his religion and actually started doing it publicly. Plus, when he was finished, I actually heard a TV guy behind me say, “Wow, that’s awesome.” And especially since it was my question that got it out of him, I didn’t want to sit on it and hand it to the TV guys. Hope you guys find it at least interesting. We’ll see if it becomes something else.

  13. DD…it really was great that you asked and shared it with everyone. It was unusual and, in many ways courageous, that TC spoke so openly and deeply. You did a good thing asking the question and writing about that side of him. (My son shared it openly with a big number of his soldiers). It is who Tom Crean is and reflects on what his players see and respect about him.

    You know what I think would be a great story (after this weekend or two)- that you allow TC to read all of the posts and that he share his thoughts about all of them with us through your story. I suspect it would be very good and deep reading for and about all of us.

  14. Tsao,
    You mean his Twitter account posts or the posts on our blog? Either way, it’s almost definitely not going to happen because he 1) is a busy man 2) doesn’t like me that much. But I’m not sure what direction you’re going with this.

  15. tsao dunger

    how about i stick to science and you, and the easter bunny, and the tooth fairy, and santa can all go take in a magic show.

    constitution. separation of church and state. taxpayer paid salary. lawsuit. what’s so hard to understand here?

    seriously, what kind of moron do you have to be to believe in that god malarkey?

  16. The whole of it DD. He (TC, not He)must know there are people who strongly support his view and expression of religion and beliefs and his use of basketball as a “pulpit” where he appears to be comfortable giving witness; others who are strongly oppose it and, generally, are uncomfortable with it; and a whole range in-between.

    While it goes unsaid, obviously many sports people feel one way or another. An intelligent story acknowledging the divide, the role it plays on this ‘miracle’ season (funny how some call it a ‘miracle’ season but object to the recognition by TC of a source that drives him), the force behind his beliefs…etc. And, I think you are intelligent enough and deep enough to handle it well, with seriousness and without bias. I think that is why journalists exist, to shine a light (no religious meaning to the phrase)to who we are.

    Otherwise all we need is a box score.

  17. Well CoachV, entertain yourself with a book on the rules of the English language. Pay particular attention to the chapters on sentences, paragraphs and the use of capitals.

    Then on the Constitution….etc; it must be hard to understand. You obviously didn’t.

  18. DD- as to his being busy, that’s why I said after the season; and he doesn’t have to like you, just answer your questions. Otherwise, just ask it in any open forum… he would not be the first public figure to dislike questions but their public role mandates transparency I believe.

    (Mind you, I think he has done a good job this year; and I have made it clear that he has a right to express his views as anyone does). But a public role does demand he address issues that may affect that role. And your role requires that you ask questions until they are answered…(his) like or dislike of you has nothing to do with it. Bob Knight would have answered you. (I didn’t say you’d like the answer).

  19. Tsao,
    I think I’m pretty much with you here, just wasn’t sure if I properly understood. At the next proper place and time I’m interested in delving deeper into the religious issue. That may or may not be the press conferences in Atlanta as there is obviously a lot more to discuss. Getting him to sit down with me and look at blog posts or his specific Twitter entries (which is what I thought you were suggesting) is a whole other issue entirely, as I could promise you he would not agree to that.

  20. Tsao TsuG, I didn’t miss the point of what Crean said. I read and I heard what he said and I understand completely and fully what he said. As for the Tweets, I used to follow him on Twitter but I haven’t now for quite some time, precisely because of the religious quotes and the fact that a couple of the people he quotes are well known by many for their intolerance.

    You need to reread what I wrote because I, in no way, suggested anything about trying to silence him. I only said that I thought his talking about his religion was inappropriate – that’s called sharing my opinion. I didn’t say one word advocating he be silenced. I have nothing to be ashamed of and I certainly don’t appreciate you telling me I should be ashamed of sharing my opinion while lecturing me about freedom of speech.

  21. Totally disagree with you, Tsao. I’ll elaborate when I have more time to express my reasoning. The danger is not in what our coach believes. The danger is the public use of that belief to shield him from fair judgment and evaluation within his own profession. It empowers through the use of marketing yourself untouchable by your proclamations a man of God rather than the quiet trust in God based on a truer faith in your heart.

    My guess would be that Dustin became quite uncomfortable when the coach lays down the heavy gavel of God to create an immediate dividing line the interviewer must decide which area to stand. He has his freedom to speak his beliefs, but what does it show to have no ear, to totally be devoid of respect, for a person that may find faith outside his Christian doctrines? It abuses religion by empowering yourself as superior because you give no credence to someone having any faith different your own. It creates a feeling of “you’re either with me, or against me” because “you’re either with my God, or against my God” in every one on one relationship/discussion he enters.

    What a great protective wall it provides for him and not at all anything that gives me a feeling of genuine spiritualness.

  22. I actually cringed a little when TC, on Senior night, made a comment about how “God loving, and God fearing” his players are. That is not the type of rhetoric I want to hear out of a coach at a public institution. If he was the coach at a private, religious university it would be a completely different thing.

    Also, does this mean that Crean is not in the business of recruiting young men that are of another religion, or perhaps no religion at all? I assume there are players out there that might not want to have a particular brand of religion forced on them when they get to college and would just as soon play elsewhere.

    I also find it silly that men of strong faith in sports always seem to claim that God is testing them when they perform poorly on the field/court, and that God is blessing them when they do well. The simpler and more logical answer to performance on the field/court is that sometimes you give it 100% and do well, other times you don’t work as hard and you perform poorly. Makes way more sense to me.

  23. Whether its right or wrong, free speech or inappropriate use of a public position, I think it’s fair to say that athletes are most likely inured to the presence of Christianity in sports (I know that I, for one, have become that way). Somewhere along the line – pee wees, pop warner, high school, AAU, etc – I’d bet that just about everyone has had either a god-preaching coach or god-worshipping teammates. It isn’t like Christianity in sports arrived with Tebow (in fact, Tebow wasn’t even the most religious person on the team, I remember hearing).

    Christianity is also dominant in lower to middle-class American life, from which a majority of these kids emerge. Going to go out on a limb here, but I would guess that Jews, Muslims and Atheists make up less than .01 % of D1 recruits.

    The point is, although it makes a lot of us cringe, I wouldn’t be too worried about how religion affects the players or their college choices. On the contrary, I’d bet that most families – even the atheist ones – see the religious aspect as a positive, simply in the sense that it guarantees some moral structure to their child’s college days. I’ve know plenty of non-believers who have sent their kids to Catholic schools for the same reasons.

    Rather than toil or fret over it, I find it fun to simply sit back and watch how the zealots continually try to adjust their narrative to make everything seem like god’s will, win or lose, kinda like Jhice alluded to.

  24. #1) There is a tiny percentage of a small portion of a scant minority of “Christians” who believe in creationism. Given who he quotes, and the nature of those quotes, I’ll all but guarantee that Tom Crean is as firmly accepting of evolution as you, “coach” v.

    #2) There is not one single aspect to Tom Crean’s behavior or utterances that runs afoul of Constitutional restrictions on the separation of church and state.

    Seriously, try and understand the issues you fling here, there, and yon.

    As for the larger issue, I personally would NEVER talk about my religion publicly. I’ve got no problem with Crean or the team doing so. There’s no trojan horse in Coach’s sayings that are going to make kids evil.

    And, I don’t know if anyone has noticed, but our team is quite religious.

    I asked Hulls to autograph my basketball. He did. And also wrote a scripture citation next to his name. I think it’s sweet.

    Elston has giant tattoos that are religious. I don’t like tattoos but, if someone’s going to get them, I suppose a crucifix is better than a gang sign.

    Oladipo mentioned God prominently in his answers to questions about the end of the VCU game.

    Verdell mentioned God prominently in his answers to questions about his injury.

    Cody, like Tyler, is a partner in his brother’s foundation and assists with the foundation’s basketball camps that are expressly religious in nature.

    Christian Watford is religious and it just goes on from there.

    And, you know what, our team is a lot like MOST teams in this regard. There are socio-political reasons for this, as some mentioned. There are religious reasons for this, in that the role of proselytism has changed in American religious life over the last couple of decades.

    And that’s a-okay. I don’t remember once hearing any of them, coach or players, tell any of us to get to the nearest Evangelical church or we’re going to H*ll. I don’t remember once hearing Coach say that a player has to be Evangelical or willing to convert to be recruited to the team.

    Given how close the team is, I’m 100% sure the right atmosphere and respect for all types and levels of belief is present on the team. And I’m not worried that their religion somehow compromises their ability to learn their studies in their respective majors or will somehow cause them to learn bad values instead of the good ones all of us say we want them to learn as a hallmark of the program. Quite the opposite.

    Just as those of faith who would seek to break down the Constitutional barriers between church and state need to step back and develop tolerance; so do those of us who are not public about our faith need to develop tolerance of those who are.

    Anyway, hope you can get your story, DD.

  25. I’ve always felt that the greatest positive that is created in a person by their religious faith is a sense of humility. The sense that there is something ‘out there’ that makes me insignificant; that I’m a tiny part of something huge. At the same time, the greatest danger is that the same faith can paradoxically create a feeling of superiority. I’m better than you because I’m Church of Christ and you’re Baptist, or I’m Methodist and you’re Jewish, I’m religious and you’re not… you get the idea. From my distant viewpoint, as a person who is not Christian, I still have respect for TC’s religious statements because they seem to reflect humility more than superiority. But he’s walking a fine line by seeming to attribute his professional success to his particular take on religion.

  26. Only in Bloomington Indiana would people be so sensitive about someone else’s religion. I don’t think he is pushing it on anyone. He brings it up, because it is what he is about, but doesn’t seem to be judging people. I don’t understand why so many people are afraid of religion. It is a good thing.

  27. Chet, I did not play for Bill Griffith as you have. We are nearly the same age so that would have been impossible + I did not attend HS in his neck of the woods. But so folks know both sides I would add he has a sterling reputation in NE Indiana, making him highly thought of. Many coaching awards, Pres. of the Coaches Association and Indiana Hall of Fame member. I am sure he is guilty of mistakes both personal and professional because he does possess a strong character and has always had the image as a tough cookie. Even so I doubt you could find a player he coached in Fort Wayne who would have an issue with him. His son has followed him into coaching(HC Manchester College). Just Is, is in error or floating BS as Griffith would have had to hold down two coaching jobs at the same time while coaching Connersville because there are no gaps between Fort Wayne coaching jobs to the Jeffersonville HC job and then returning to Fort Wayne coaching opportunities.

    By the way fellas if God does choose sides in sports I hope Friday he is sitting right next Coach Crean on the IU bench and making a strong impact during timeouts.

  28. TT—As with most everything, you have NO CLUE on what the “Constitution” and “free speech” means.

    It means the GOVERNMENT can’t stop him from talking about your fairy tale.

    I don’t see anyone on here saying the government should make him stop.

    I recently got kicked off Peegs for complaining about a Christian signature that was very bigoted. I was told, “Since most of us are Christian, we don’t care you’re offended so just deal with it.”

    If it had been a bigoted statement AGAINST Christians, I would have been ripped to shreds and booted.

    You Thumpers are the biggest hypocrites on earth.

    You don’t care ONE BIT about offending others but act like it’s THE END OF THE ENTIRE WORLD if YOU are offended.

    Just look at the Kirk Cameron thing. He recently BLASTED gay people. Of course, non-bigots expressed their outrage.

    And all the Jesus Freaks said, “Hey, what’s the big deal? He’s just giving his opinion and using free speech. Besides, the Bible says gays are sinners and DESERVE to be treated like crap.”

    And yet, ALL WE HEAR from Thumpers is how they are “attacked.” Sure never hear about “free speech” in THOSE instances.

    Just PLAYING THE VICTIM by you holier-than-thou hypocrites.

    btw….Peegs let me back on.

  29. I live in Clark County in sight of Louisville, Kentucky. We live in a mixed bag of fans, some Hoosiers in name only as it is not uncommon to see neighbors wearing University of Louisville, Kentucky or IU regalia. Heated discussions and rivalry are part of everyday life concerning what I believe is the hot bed of college basketball. Going into this game I assure you of one thing. In the heart of nearly every Kentucky fan is that basketball and the Big Blue is a religion all to itself. And I am not joking.

    I have followed Coach Crean since the day he took the job at IU. The only thing I knew about him before that was that at Marquette he knew how to win games especially against Louisville.

    I attended many basketball games in the early Crean years. You could sit almost anywhere you like at most games in Assembly Hall. I struggled with comments that he could not coach or recruit. My UL and Kentucky friends feasted while I fretted. We got better but still there was something missing and it was not just Cody Zeller.

    But this year was such a surprise. yes, Tom Crean has turned IU and made us a program to be watched. He has worn the religious side of him around his neck like a badge of honor. His comments, I believe are about him as a person more than as a coach. BUT if it takes faith to take us from where we were to where we are then that you Coach Tom Crean. Because where we were was a hell of a place.

  30. Oh….and as far as slobbering all over Crean for “being courageous” for this, give me a break.

    The vast majority of the country is Jesus Freaks.

    As I said on Peegs, if I had made a similar statement praising Satan or Allah while ripping Thumpers, I would have been called every name in the book.

    If Crean got up and praised Allah, NONE of you Thumpers would be calling him “courageous” and would be DEMANDING he keep his religious beliefs to himself.

    But, since he’s praising YOUR fairy tale, you have complete double standards on it.

    He if we were a Muslim and bragged about it, THAT would be “courageous.”

  31. #25 = great post

    As you said, what if a player is Muslim, atheist or Jewish? Sounds like Crean would discriminate against him if he isn’t “God fearing” (which is STUPID when you think about it).

  32. ht

    you think people who believe in evolution make up .01% of recruits?!? that’s ridiculous. i would think it’s more like 50%. but would a kid admit that to crean? he likely would think it would hurt his playing time.

    as a parent, i wouldn’t want my son playing for a coach preaching religion. what kind of moral structure do you get believing fictional characters greatly influence your life? a moral compass of fairy tales? if crean were a scientologist would you be happy with the moral structure he was providing for your children. if he were muslim?

    you send your kids to college to be educated. not brainwashed with nonsense.

  33. So, let me preface this comment by saying that I have the upmost respect for Coach Crean and if my son were ever to play college ball, I would be very happy to have him coach my son. He clearly cares deeply for his players and clearly wants them to grow up to be good men – and frankly, as a college coach that is part of his job.

    Now onto my problem with the God talk from coaches and from people who are public employees in a position to influence others: It is inappropriate and should be considered a violation of their duty to protect the civil rights of others if that talk makes it clear that non-believers or “others” are not welcome to have full participation in whatever activity that public employee is in charge of. Judge Roy Moore comes to mind…. I have some personal experience with this and I am going to share – even though most of you will probably think bad things about me as a result.

    First, I was an Eagle Scout. I worked really hard at getting that accolade – especially given that I was also in 5 sports, band and choir and maintained a 3.8 GPA in high school (back in the days when 4 was the highest possible GPA). I have not believed in God since I was about 7 years old – and when the BSA started kicking atheists out – I returned my badges and medals and ended my association with that organization.

    Second, when I was in 10th grade I told a classmate that I didn’t believe in God. My track coach found out and made me run sprints for 10 practices in a row – 2 hours each of nothing but sprints with short recovery. I got really fast and got a new kind of heart – but I did and still do hate that SOB for what he did.

    Third, while I was a student at IU, I told a friend that I didn’t believe while I lived in Reid. The next day I got beat up by 6 guys from a different floor. During the beating I received – which was bad enough that I pissed blood for a week – I got called all sorts of pretty obnoxious things. I know – I was in southern Indiana in the late 80’s – what did I expect.

    Fourth, about 10 years ago, I had a boss who was a devout Catholic, a Jesuit and who had recently married (2nd marriage – interestingly enough) to a gentleman who was a member of the Knights of Columbus. One day, when trapped in a car with her – she forced me to tell her my religious affiliations. I told her I had none and that I didn’t believe. From then on I went from being her go to employee to the office pariah. She ended up firing me 2 days before she left her job.

    All of these things have informed me pretty well about how truly “free” our right to religious expression is. I am fine with Coach being Christian and even with sharing. Where I get concerned is when he becomes concerned with how good of “christians” his athletes are. It is not likely that he will make it through his coaching career without having a muslim or jew on his team – and they should have every right to practice their religion and believe what they want. I should – if our country really believes in freedom of religious practice, be free to be openly atheist even though it is not a religion and is in fact a rejection of religion. In order for one to have freedom of conscious – which is the crux of religious freedom – one MUST have the right to reject religion completely.

    Again, all this said – I love Coach Crean and as long as he isn’t cramming his religious beliefs down his kids throats, I think he should have every right to be openly religious – and I would hope that he would afford me the right to respectfully disagree and to not practice religion.

    Beat KY!!!!!

  34. Hoosier Clarion, you are 100% correct. Bill Griffith was at Jeffersonville, sandwiched between Fort Wayne jobs. He may have taught school at Churubusco after Fort Wayne but did not coach.

    Griffith played football at Miami O. Three years (one year on freshman team)under Pont and 1 under Schembechler.

  35. What is “malarkey”, HC?

    Are you denying that Thumpers would crucify Crean if he were praising Allah?

    Hell, most of you hillbillies HATE Obama because you think he’s Muslim.

    If he actually were, and was BRAGGING about it, you’d storm the White House and lynch him.

  36. coachv-

    you think people who believe in evolution make up .01% of recruits?!? that’s ridiculous. i would think it’s more like 50%

    Just to clarify a few things: first, you are equating Christianity with creationism. There are lots and lots of Christians who in fact believe in evolutionism. Spain, for example, is 90% Roman Catholic and yet evolution is taught in schools with little protest from anyone. In this country, too, there are many Christians who have adapted science into their religious worldview.

    I will maintain that a huge percentage of college basketball and football recruits are Christian to varying degrees, including many of these who believe in evolution.

    On your second point regarding “fictional characters” and “fairy tales,” I will simply say that we all live in a world of fairly tales and fictional characters, regardless of our spiritual beliefs. They help divert our attention from the real suffering and misery that takes place on a daily basis on our planet. The fairy tale that the “invisible hand” of the market will make the world a better place, and the fairy tale America is the greatest country in history, are just a few.

  37. Laffy, If you want to know look up malarkey. I do not know or care if BO is a muslim. He has proved he is an idiot.

  38. Obama is 100,000 times smarter than all you Righties who thought invading Iraq would be a cake walk.

    Oh, and I know what the word means, Gilligan.

    I’m asking what you thought was malarkey.

    Let’s see you refute anything I said.

  39. My goodness, haters gotta hate, don’t they? And intolerance against Christians is de rigueur on the left these days, isn’t it?

  40. I liked Bobby Knight’s position on matters of faith. I never heard anything of God or Christ ever exit his foul mouth. He had no insecurities. He knew he was a ‘God of the Hardwood’ and thus had no reason to bow to any higher one.

    And for those of you that drool over the idea that one day your biggest fantasy comes true and Knight steps back to the holy land his hoops where he created motion offense in 7 days, it is of my humble opinion that the preachy, holier-than-thou, superiority by claims some unyielding faith, attitude our new head coach that makes the real ‘God of the Hardwood’ cringe more than anything else.

    It’s so easy to now talk of Crean’s days as resurrecting us from a basketball “hell” when Bobby is the only coach that ever brought an abundance of March heaven. If there ain’t no heaven, there’s only hell. Is that a song?

    Funny to hear people blabber of God and then drive to church in gas-guzzling SUVs and have 10 children to do the same on a globe with summer weather now arriving in March through her thinning atmosphere. Nothin’ like good old-fashion faith that allows a good Christian to piss and sh*t all over this beautiful earth their God created..They think they’re stupid faith gives them a free pass to ruin this gorgeous planet because they have an apartment reserved on a puffy cloud.

    Laffy is correct. I am a hypocrite and so is every breathing supreme thinking mammal this planet that steals her from all other flawed living things not capable of taking away our dominance and quest to destroy and hoard it as ours. Find the Lord through kindness and respect your neighbor and every insignificant living creatures your God gave this planet to before we were ever given the keys. Show your faith in God through respect his blood, sweat, and tears this paradise of creation offered in trust his name you would value and protect.

  41. Laffy, BO could not run a candy store and if he did there would be no candy for the kids at Christmas. Everything you say is malarkey. I can refute what you think because I can.

    I had many opportunities to hear RMK speak. The last 3-4 times I was present he ended each with these words “America! America! God shed his grace on thee”. He understood freedom and damn sure understood faith.

  42. There is nothing funnier…..NOTHING……..repeat, NOTHING….than Thumpers crying their eyes out about “intolerance against Christians.”

    You nutjobs tell EVERYBODY that THEIR God is FAKE.

    Damn, talk about irony.

    You treat gays like dog food.

    Many Righties DESPISE Obama because they think he’s Muslim.

    Tell you what? Quit trying to RAM your fairy tale down our throats and I’ll stop being “intolerant” of you, deal?

    Why are YOU GUYS allowed to be INTOLERANT of others but scream WE’RE VICTIMS when people give you the SAME TREATMENT back?

  43. Hate to break it to you, HC, but the economy is getting better after your hero Bush DESTROYED it.

    It sure is funny how Righties defend Georgie after the economy IMPLODED on his watch and had TWO of the worst managed wars EVER…..not one, but TWO…..and then CRY how “bad” Obama is.

    If a Democrat had been in charge while Georgie was and did what he did, they’d burn down the White House in protest. Instead, we got NOTHING but excuses.

    And now, just TEARS how “horrible” Obama is.

    Zero credibility.

  44. i must be missing something. how can a christian believe in evolution. what about adam and eve? can christians discount the bible?

    how can there be a god when little children are constantly abducted, raped, tortured, killed, starved and diseased? god could easily stop all that with a thought, right? if you were god, wouldn’t you? since god doesn’t, what the hell good is he? or she.

  45. $4.00 fuel and better economy do not live under the same roof. But Jimmy Carter is happy.

  46. Clarion – if you think Obama is an idiot, please outline 2 or 3 reasons why you believe this – I will give you 20 to 1 odds that at least 1 of 3 reasons you give will be factually not true. Also, you sound just like the insecure idiots that beat me up in the Reid stairwell. I get that Laffy and I are not members of your tribe…

    OldGuy – when was the last time a Christian got kicked out of an organization funded by the federal government for being Christian? I am no fan of intolerance and I don’t think believers are stupid (although team stupid is filled with believers) – but as outlined above, my experience has been that openly admitting to being a non-believer is dangerous in the company of believers.

  47. Clarion – I remember the $4 gas we had in June and July of ’08 as do most honest people. I also remember that back then it was not up to the Prez to fix gas prices – at least on your favorite “news” network. Also – the reason the gas prices are high is because the Bush admin called off the regulators that regulated commodity markets – and Dick Shelby has held up just about every appointment to anything, especially the special proscecutors at the SEC…. So you got all your facts wrong in 1 comment. One of the things I learned back at IU was that first you did your research and THEN you formed your opinion.

  48. Damn, I recall your favorite “news” networks said the Prez could fix gas High gas $ if he wanted to but would not because he was getting richer because of them. One of the things I learned from the gator school was 1st you do your research and THEN you formed your opinion.

  49. One reason gas is at $4 is because Righties are demanding we attack Iran….which scares the speculators.

    Can’t have it both ways, Gomer.

    And since you know NOTHING about economics, gas prices going up from when your Messiah Georgie was in charge is actually a good thing.

    It was that low because the economy was HORRIBLE and there was little demand.

  50. HC, as long as you’re whining about “intolerance against Thumpers”, why don’t you comment on this?

    So, non-Christians need to GET OUT and let Jesus Freaks run the country?

    It sure is odd that the Founders were EXACTLY OPPOSITE of what these nutjobs stand for while bragging they were on their side.

    Of course he “doesn’t care” what people say on it…..he’s DEAD WRONG.

    The Founders thought Thumpers were FRUIT CAKES and EXPLICITLY said this was NOT a “Christian” country.

    So, if anyone needs to “get out”, it’s the Fundies who are trying to ram their fairy tale down our throats.

  51. Really? That’s what you remember? Well, I guess we know all we need to know about you and your relationship with honesty. Because, first of all I never once heard that anywere (other than the speculation rules needed to be reinstated). Paul Krugman – favorite whipping boy of your team – said and continues to say that while speculation is part of the issue, the biggest issue is that the oil we are extracting now costs around $80 a barrel just to extract so the price is going to keep going up because the extraction costs continue to go up. Secondly, I never claimed once that I thought the Prez could fix gas prices – ever – in my entire life. You inferred that he could – and it being obvious where you get your information, I connected the dots. If I was wrong and you have come to the conclusion that high gas prices are the result of Obama promoted policies – sorry for that, but it doesn’t make you any less wrong about the facts.

    Once again we get a full scale demonstration of how important one side of our political spectrum thinks truth is – and it is the same side that thinks Congressman Ryan is a serious person with a great deal of budgeting experience and expertise.

  52. Wow…anyone interested in someone who really got the crux of the discussion…read “Guest’s” contribution to the posts, #27.

    There is hope that some still think while involving their “feelings” (spirituality). Thanks Guest, a pleasure to read you.

  53. Yeah, this is kind of what I was afraid of.
    If you guys feel like going MSNBC vs. Fox News on us, well, I mean have at it I guess. But as a preface understand 1) Crean has not suggested that he’s a creationist or even a Republican for that matter. 2) At least one of his players, Tijan Jobe, was Muslim and we have no evidence to support that he is intolerant of other religions. There is obviously some gray area about being an employee of a state institution and wearing your religion on your sleeve. The plan is to pose questions to him about walking that tight rope, and he hasn’t had the opportunity to answer those questions yet, so it’s not necessarily fair to lump him in with right-wing “Bible-thumpers” just yet. Some can say this is hypocrisy, but I would argue that religion has become more personal as time has passed and there are an increasing number of people who consider themselves Christian but do not accept every word in the Bible as law. Just because Tom Crean believes in Jesus doesn’t mean he also believes that the world is only 6,000 years old. And just because he tells the world he’s Christian doesn’t mean he requires his players to be. He’s brought this front and center now as opposed to just doing it on his Twitter account, so there are questions he needs to answer, but he needs the opportunity to answer them before certain lines are drawn and assumptions made about all of his beliefs.
    Now, if you want to mess with the immovable object that is Clarion’s political stance, well, good luck with that.

  54. Whether you are left or right handed, the price of oil has been out of US control for a long time. There are a lot of political situations to argue, the price of oil is not one of them. The US produces about 11% of the total crude production in the world, not nearly enough. Laffy is partially correct about Iran and the price of crude, you throw enough bs against the wall something is bound to stick. Good job Laffy! Oil exploration is up again in the US. The fact remains US drivers pay less per gallon that Europeans. Norway is 2 times higher that the US. Are they preparing to attack Iran?

    A fun fact question for you Laffy, out of a barrel of crude oil, 44 US gallons, how many gallons of gasoline are produced? You figure it out, I know the answer. You seem to know so much about the subject you shouldn’t have any problem with this. Have a nice day.

  55. Jhice, public institutions can not curtail religious thoughts. They simply can show no preference between religious denominations, practice, agnosticism or atheism. You seem to believe that only institutions that are funded by a church, synagogue, mosque or any other religious institution can act as a host for religious activity. Much to the contrary, a public institution simply can show no preference for religious activity or lack of religious activity.

    The historical reason is that when our first pilgrims came over they were escaping a Europe that was divided into ‘sects’ (for lack of a better word) within Christianity. One was even invented (the Church of England) because the Pope wouldn’t let the King get any from a number of different bed mates. Persecution among Christians was not uncommon. (ask the people of Boston, Providence, New Haven, New York (New Amsterdam). The only thing they came together on was that they stick it to the non-Christians, especially the Jews.

    Almost the way that non-believers (atheists) and ‘questioning ones’ now get together and agree that sticking it to the ‘believers’ is in fashion, as in the case of Tom Crean.

    Interesting, a recently written book looking at the ‘disintegrating’ tendency in America affection our social, political and economic fiber argues that the cause of the disintegration is the collapse of a value system that served us well to create America.I would argue that the loss of values is simultaneous to the discussion of religious or morality issues in our schools. As we lose the ability to discuss “what we believe (or don’t and why), we lose the very dialogue and discussion that brings us together to create American values”.

    What I will state and strongly is an old American adage about freedom which applies to Twitter, blogs, public speech, public tax supported and private institutions, etc; “I may not agree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it”.

    Now…we Hoosiers who believe in all faiths or none, of different origins, race, ethnicity, ideology, political affiliations, genders and nationalities and genetic structures must stick together with love for one another …and kill Kentucky!

    (BTW Jhice, when I first saw your handle I thought it was Jihaad and began to answer it that way. Thank God I took a second look.)

  56. The LAST people to “preach about morals” are CHRISTIANS.

    You’ve got the Vatican running the biggest kiddie rapist ring in the world.

    And it sure is funny how Thumpers cry “marriage is SACRED” when they won’t outlaw divorce or punish adultery by jail.

    Then when it comes to abortion, the SECOND that “innocent baby” pops out, they couldn’t care LESS about it and cut almost EVERY program to help that “innocent baby” out because they want to punish the “slut” mom.

    The most dishonest people I’ve EVER met are those that call themselves “Christians”…..and it isn’t even CLOSE.

    Are there some honest ones? Sure.

    Most are complete lying bigots.

    You can take the “morals” of Palin and Santorum and Bush and SHOVE them.

  57. For the record – I was not going all fox v. msnbc…. And I am fine with people being public about their religion. I just don’t think one should call the Prez an idiot without a good reason (which clearly has not been provided) and I don’t think it is okay to force people to agree with your particular belief system. I would never ask anyone to do that – and I expect the same respect. I also wanted to point out some very clear examples of when some religious folks (not all or most – some) have done things that are pretty henious to people, like me for instance, who don’t believe. Sorry I let it get off on the tangent – I just can’t stand level of dishonesty in our national discourse and I apologize for reacting to that.

  58. Nah, OldIU, you’re allowed, no apologies needed. Didn’t mean to come off like I was trying to stifle political discussion completely. I’m not going to act like I don’t share some of your concerns there. But I’ve read enough comment boards on political stories to know that this can get ugly fast. I’ve also seen arguments with Clarion (love ya buddy, but you’re just slightly stubborn) so I can pretty much tell you how this movie ends.
    Feel free to return to said discussion. Just touch gloves and keep it civil. I’d just ask that Crean not be inserted in parts of the argument where he doesn’t actually belong.

  59. Thanks Dustin – and if I have never said it before, I really appreciate what you do. Learn a lot from your posts and articles.

    Now, just to brag on my boy – Most of you won’t know this, but the Mascot for the Bucks is a good Indiana boy (Ft. Wayne) and he used to be my gymnast when I still coached…. Check him out sometime

    My experience with him is part of the reason I respect Coach Crean. He was really doing very well in his sophmore year and slipped on pommel horse and broke his hand at practice – which ended his gymnastics career for the most part (he still did tumbling and we had a lot of fun learning stuff on high bar). It still is hard for me to talk about how much it sucked for him to get hurt – but that being said – I am so proud of who he is now.

  60. I feel like I’m a better Christian, so things will be easier.’ No, it doesn’t mean anything. It could be harder. It could be a lot harder.

  61. Well, I’ve lived for:

    6 years in Bloomington
    7 years in Tallahassee
    4 years in Dallas area
    3 years in NH
    And 16 years in ME

    And I can’t remember ever seeing an act of outright religious bigotry, much less experience one… even though I’ve certainly let people know that I think organized religion as a whole has done far more bad than good in this world. I’ve had people try to convert me, explain righteousness to me, etc, but never any violent reactions or even the hint of a threat.

    One of the things I love about the northeast is the very tolerant nature of the Christian people I know…. Maybe because they are the clear minority.

    My step-mother is even an ordained interfaith minister, which I admire quite a bit because they study all religions and consider all religions valid. She has never once approached me, or anyone else for that matter, about choosing or considering faith.

    Who knows… Maybe I’m just a likeable guy and nobody wants to sweat me…

    Or maybe it’s like Elmo thinks and I’m so worthless that no one cares to save me.

    Either way… Go IU!

  62. Frankly, anyone who supported bumbling George for eight (God, was that ALL) long years of doing EVERYTHING wrong and then calls Barack Obama an idiot has zero credibility with me.

  63. …also, when a group that represents the overwhelming majority, in terms of numbers and power, claims they are being oppressed, they look pretty stupid.

  64. Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaamen, Chet.

    Thumpers do NOTHING but rip others and then when they’re called to the carpet for it, they start SOBBING, “We’re victims!!! Quit attacking us!!! Waaaaaaaahhhh!!!!”

    Muslims are banned from building mosques. When is the last time a church couldn’t be built?

    Atheists can’t put up billboards.

  65. Chet, So sorry to disappoint you. I have no credibility for declaring BO’s bona fide idiocy but yet people condoning the killing of 1000’s of babies each year, think government cures all or proclaiming there is no God are in the level-headed mainstream. Adult mind games.

  66. I’m a Christian but I’ve quit declaring it because I find fundamentalists so incredibly offensive that I do not want to be associated with them.

  67. dustin,

    crean is doing a lot more tham wearing his religion on his sleeve. he is turning his high-profile profession into a pulpit and taxpayers are footing the bill. i worry that he is preaching more aggressively behind closed doors. what he is doing is against the law. dustin, what would happen at your newspaper if your boss led everyone in daily prayer?

    can you, or anyone explain to me how one can be a christian and believe in evolution? what about adam and eve, man created in god’s own image, all that rot. can you believe in god and not the bible. doesn’t the bible provide the ONLY evidence that at one time god communicated with man?

  68. So long Hoosier Scoop. You were my favorite site for all things Hoosiers. But after having to sift through all this vomit I’ve had enough. What does any of this have to do with BASKETBALL ? So what if CTC expressed his beleif in God while being employed by a public institution. How many athiest professors have expressed their belief that there is no God in the classroom and have NEVER come under this kind of scrutiny. He lives by what he believes. Its a part of him ,just as much as someones belief that God does not exsist is a part of them. I personally admire him for doing so knowing the flack he would take for it. I myself will probably be crucified for my opinon on all this but who cares ! I’m going to find a site that remembers there is an actual game this Friday night. GO HOOSIERS !!!!!!!

  69. Actually Chris…you leave there is one less of us who think it is OK to say God and remain strong in the belief that believing is a good thing and saying it, as good. You leave, they win…

  70. Coach – No, there are literally 1000’s of creation myths involving some God or Gods interacting with men.

    Clarion – So smaller government involves the government inserting itself in a very personal decision that is frankly none of your business? I watched my 5 month old baby sister turn green and die and in the end my parents decided to let nature takes its course – this illness she had can be diagnosed in utero now (not back then) and it is none of your business. None. At all.

    As to your other two things; I know a lot of really, really liberal people (hell, I live in Santa Cruz!) – and I know of not a single person who believes that government always does a good job. Of course not. But your team apparently thinks they never do any good – which is idiocy. I also know of no one that believes that not believing God is mainstream. It is rational – that is a fact, whether you like it or not. Believing in something you have never seen, never heard, never smelled, never tasted and that you cannot measure the existence of is not rational. It is fine that you believe. Really. I know a lot of really nice believers. That said, you don’t get to call me names, beat me up or restrict my rights because I don’t. Heck, I even think it is okay for you to profess your belief – but see, you don’t think the reverse is true as evidenced by this second to last post. We can agree to disagree – thats fine. But you are not more special or more of a person because you believe that I am. Period. And next time you want to restrict my rights, may I suggest that you go try an impossible act of self-impregnation while flying… with a donut. Preferably a rolling one.

  71. Well Clarion, in post #76 I would certainly argue that you are describing a political minority… So no, they wouldn’t be part of the level-headed majority. Neither end of the spectrum is…

    Level-headed means understanding that different circumstances may require different actions… That there isn’t an ABSOLUTE right or wrong answer to an issue.

    Level-headed means questioning the existence of something that cannot be proven. It’s funny that we hold our courts to one standard, but issues of religious faith to an OPPOSITE standard. I think a level-headed person would NOT proclaim to guarantee OR deny the existence of God.

    and I also think that level-headed folks would understand that government is good at some things, okay for some things, and bad at others. Especially a government that is run by adversarial parties that seem to no longer be able work cohesively.

    Most of all level-headed people generally understand and accept that there are a wide variety of opinions, beliefs, and ideals out there… And that part of the beauty of being human is figuring it out for yourself without having someone else’s beliefs forced down your throat.

    People that aren’t level-headed generally choose to tilt the teeter-totter to one side or the other, and then try to impinge on other people’s personal freedoms by saying “MY beliefs are BEST for YOU!”

    It is fine for people to express their beliefs. It is fine for people to try to persuade others towards their way of thinking. But it is not fine to attempt to force others to follow a doctrine against their will.

    Do I hear an AMEN!?

  72. Coach V,
    I think you can pretty much believe whatever you want to believe. I guess the simple answer is that you have to understand that the Bible is thousands of years old, and there were at least hundred if not thousands of years between the Old and New Testament. There’s a whole lot that’s up for interpretation there. I’d be willing to talk religion more if it were me and you in a bar, but I’m pretty sure, especially considering this crowd, that it would be pretty much insane for me to reveal my religious or political beilefs on this blog.

  73. Old Gymnast, Geoff…whoever else cares to know the reason for my belief and is so bothered by the fact that it is not rational, in other words not deduced through reason…? Truthfully, I see myself as very rational and given to believing through a thorough application of reason to matter; but, because I do so, I first have to establish that my basic assumption comes from the most reasonable of acts, an act of faith, my belief that all comes from one source, (for me) God.

    I am perfectly comfortable with that, even knowing that I can not prove it because….I don’t need to prove it because I have that Faith that it is True. Now, if that bothers you don’t let it because it does not bother me, it humbles and comforts and I really like that space.

  74. Whatever you do or believe is totally cool with me Tsao, Clarion, atheist, Dustin, Crean, believer, Chet, Havard, Coachv, etc…

    I could totally care less how people live their own lives as long as they aren’t infringing on others’ rights. (I know, slippery slope…)

    I don’t question people’s sanity for believing in God. I don’t think religion and level-headedness are mutually exclusive. I just think that a DEFINITE decision on Gods existence is a stone on one side of the scales or the other, and if you start to pile a bunch of other stones on that side of the scale you obviously lose balance, and thus my belief that you can be LEVEL-headed.

    I am a former(?) southern baptist for what it’s worth. (when i moved to TX for HS I decided to be baptized at the church with all the hot chicks from school). I didn’t grow up in a religious family, but my mother was catholic (until divorced I guess) and my step-father was raised baptist. My father is now basically a Buddhist, its not like he’s openly practicing, but he certainly lives in a very peaceful manner and has philosophical beliefs along those of Thick Nhat Hanh. My step-mother is the ordained interfaith minister – so again, she has plenty of faith, but just doesn’t get caught up in one set of rules and tenets over another.

    One set of parents leans slightly right, and the other slightly left. Neither has ever tried to persuade me in one religious or political direction or the other.

    I see merits and problems with all forms of organized political and religious groups.

    I prefer not to associate myself with any particular religion or political party because organized politics and religion have created more war, death, and suffering than anything else in the history of earth. It doesn’t mean that government and religion don’t have their place or don’t also do a lot of good, but I’d prefer not to label myself as anything other than an Adult, White, Male, Hoosier fan. These affiliations have enough issues as it is…

  75. Oh and btw, all 4 parents graduated from IU either undergrad or post-grad… And 2 of them are still affiliated with the school. Not that many of you care, but there have been a couple jabs about my authenticity as a Hoosier fan since I myself didn’t go to IU…

  76. You didn’t go to IU????!!!!!…..Is there anything left a man can believe in??????!!

    Just kidding…being a Hoosier begins with…dare I say it?….Faith!

  77. Hey Goeff, my wife and I decided to take a break and go for a drive up the Maine coast in May. I’ve only been along there once and I enjoyed it tremendously.

    Any ‘must see’ suggestions?

  78. Clarion–

    You ducked his point. He said if people defended Bush for 8 years had no credibility if they call Obama stupid. Bush was THE biggest disaster this country EVER saw…and most Righties defended him like their eternal soul depended on it.

    So for them to cry Obama is “stupid” is beyond ridiculous.

    And no one is killing “babies”, Drama Queen.

    And like I said, once that thing pops out, you losers couldn’t care LESS about it….so stop the phony outrage/concern.

    As far as your strawman, “Think government cures all”, show me ONE person who says that. Not even Obama does. Idiot.

    And most people don’t say there is “no” God. They say the Bible is THE dumbest fairy tale ever written.

    Which it is.

    Nothing but contradictions. Your God is the biggest jacka$$ ever conceived. And for all the tears you have how “stupid” Obama is, the Bible is DUMB.

    It’s just STUPID.

  79. Tsao – I don’t know how many more times I can say it…. I am absolutely fine with your believing whatever you want and it is okay to hold irrational beliefs. I certainly don’t mean to say that being a believer makes someone irrational in general, just that a belief based entirely on faith and in the absence of evidence is not rational. I am totally irrational about a few things. I know that. It isn’t insulting and I am not even saying you are wrong. I don’t know whether you are wrong or right – I just personally don’t share that belief with you. And it isn’t like I didn’t grow up in a religious family. I get it. And, I would hope that you would not paint me with a broad brush because I don’t believe. There are plenty of things that people do that are prejudice, cruel, obnoxious, disturbing, etc. for or all sorts of reasons – religion being one of the top reasons. What would be awesome – and what has been my point all along – would be for us, collectively as a nation, agree that everybody is free to believe how they want to believe (or not) without threat of losing a job, getting kicked in the kidneys, getting shot, getting kicked out of public funded organizations or being denied opportunities. I know that is a pipe dream – but hey, I am pretty sure that Thomas Jefferson and Thomas Paine shared my pipe dream. I also would love it if people would think things through and not be so fear/prejudice driven. Well – again… I am pretty sure what I hope for is not likely, but hope isn’t a bad thing. Maybe in another 30 generations…

  80. Chet, ok… where to start???

    Portland is great. Big foodie town, with more restaurants per capita than any city besides San Fransisco. So you’ll want to spend some time in the Old Port and Arts District. You can just park anywhere and walk the entire city for a day. Although you can spend at least a couple days here and not get bored. I can suggest a couple places to stay that my parents love when they come to town.

    Favorite Portland restaurants of mine:

    Brunch: Bintliff’s – hands down the best with really good bloody mary’s

    Lunch/Dinner: Duck Fat, Nosh, Front Room, Gritty McDuff’s, Grace

    Vegan/Vegetarian: Green Elephant

    But you could literally spend a month just eating every day and never have a bad meal.

    If your wife likes to shop then hit Exchange Street.

    We have several local breweries (Shipyard and Gritty’s being the 2 most prolific) and you could take the tour at Shipyard with the free tasting at the end, if you dig that kind of thing.

    Never a bad idea to do a little island hopping on one of the Ferries or scenic boats that are found down on Commercial St.

    If you like Raggae, there is an awesome outdoor Raggae Fest every Sunday on Peak’s Island in the summer. Big party on sunny days. There is other exploring to be done on Peak’s as well. The island is about a half mile off the coast of the Portland waterfront, so it’s a quick ferry ride.

    Southern Coast – when you get into Maine, if you aren’t in a hurry, get off the Turnpike and venture off the beaten path a little (off route 1 as well). There are some really pretty drives around Wells and Kennebunk. I don’t consider it a vacation spot unless you want to just sit around on the beach, but it’s a good way to make your way up to Portland and beyond.

    Sebago Lake area: Sebago Lake is very large and there are plenty of water activities and exploring to do around it. It’s about 30 minutes north of Portland, and an hour south of the White Mtns. There are lots of foothills in this area if you are into hiking, but don’t want to go all the way to North Conway. I live about 5 minutes from Sebago Lake and if you are looking for a rental I have a buddy who would give you a good deal. If you enjoy camping my wife and I know quite a few spots around there to recommend.

    Midcoast: I love Brunswick, do a ton of business there. It is where Bowdoin College is, and has a very cute downtown. Great place to stop for lunch and walk Maine Street on your way up to Boothbay Harbor or Camden-Rockport.

    There is a great breakfast place at Pemaquid Point right at the lighthouse, where you literally sit over the rocky coast and look out on the Atlantic with nothing else around. Pemaquid Point is on the peninsula just beyond Boothbay Harbor. More quaint and quiet with some beautiful coastal drives.

    Boothbay Harbor is gorgeous and there is plenty of walking around to do.

    Camden is my favorite Maine town. It’s a beautiful artsy town with the classic “downeast” feel and vibrant Main St.

    Bar Harbor is a great destination, even though it’s a little cliche. There is just a lot to do there with the town, the national parks, the beaches, thunder hole, etc. There’s definitely a reason lots of people vacation up there. If that’s where you intend on spending some time I can get more specific with you later.

    Inland: to be honest, you can skip it. Mt Katahdin is okay and the Moosehead Lake Region can be gorgeous, but you can get the same experience much closer to things with Sebago Lake.

    Sorry, but there is just so much that its tough to pare down. Once you start to plan your route let me know and I’ll give you some more specific stuff.

  81. Geoff: do you work for the Maine tourism board? Seriously, you make me want to pack up my bags and move. Actually, reading Stephen King novels as a kid also made me always want to see Maine.

  82. I always ditch the interstate ASAP. I rented a house on Orange Lake near Mathias Bay for a week a few years ago. Went out on a lobster boat. Watched fireworks in Eastport. Had a great time.

  83. Found this article to be rather interesting on the subject of prayer in a college locker room. Oddly enough, the paper comes from the Marquette Sports Law Review. I pasted the conclusion, but feel free to read the entire piece by going to this link.



    Prayer is a topic close to the hearts of most Americans. The majority might not have any problem with prayers in their children’s locker room,
    but religious minorities might have a problem with this practice. The First Amendment was designed to protect these minorities.

    Prayer in a public university locker room violates the Establishment Clause because the prayers take place in a state facility, during a state activity, and are normally led by a state official. College students are more mature than high school students, therefore, college students are
    less susceptible to peer pressure and more capable of comprehending that the prayers do not indicate state support for religion. The authoritative position held by the coach and the restraints involved in athletics, however, does require public universities to provide student-athletes
    with a higher level of protection than regular college students
    . Based on the current sense of power exhibited by some college athletes, there appears to exist a new breed of student-athletes willing, and sometimes eager, to exert their rights through strikes, boycotts, or other actions.
    While some college athletes have been able to lash-out against their former coaches, the majority of student-athletes dare not raise a single objection to the conduct or actions of their coach or institution.

    College athletes are, on a whole, in a rigidly supervised environment that is controlled by a state agent, therefore, college athletes should have a level of protection comparable to the protection afforded to middle/ high school students in First Amendment cases. If a team prayer is led, monitored, or supervised by a coach, the coach’s free speech right has to be suspended to avoid entanglement. However, based on the Weisman and Jones cases, if there is no state endorsement or entanglement or if the team prayers are implemented and controlled by the athletes themselves without state assistance, the prayers will not violate the Establishment

    Coaches still have at least one Hail Mary left in their arsenal. Prayer could still be utilized in a public university locker room if the coach adopts a neutral policy for a moment of silence before a game for individual reflection. This practice will be valid as long as all student-athletes
    are given the option of choosing their own actions during the silent period.

  84. You guys need to get a life, or a job. Dustin, this should have been shut down a long time ago. This is a place to discuss IU basketball, not religion and politics. Isn’t there a saying about that anyway…

  85. dustin

    i did not ask, nor am i interested in your religious beliefs. i’m trying to stay on topic. you claimed crean believed in evolution. i asked you to reconcile his christianity with that claim. i also asked your opinion on using his high-profile (with taxpayer paid salary) position as a pulpit to spread the gospel.

  86. He… “Maine, the way life should be.”

    It’s why I decided to settle here after living in and enjoying other parts of the country.

    If every winter were like this the population would soar beyond 5 times the current level… 3rd day this week that it will hit 80 and sunny blue skies.

  87. I think deep down most Thumpers know the Bible is IGNORANT, which is why they get SO DEFENSIVE when people make fun of them.

    The only reason they “still have faith” is for 4 reasons:

    1) People hate to admit when they’re wrong……especially Righties. Look at how they CRUCIFY Obama for apologizing for anything. They’d rather cut off their leg than admit they are wrong…..ever.

    2) They are SO AFRAID of dying, they need the “comfort” of thinking they’ll be around forever.

    3) It gives them a cover for their bigoted beliefs. They actually claim, “Hey, I’m not a bigot for treating gays like dog food. The Bible DEMANDS I do it.”

    4) Their favorite hobby in the entire world is playing victim. That’s why they WORSHIP Palin. She’s the QUEEN of it.

  88. Geoff- ONe thing that actually attracts me to Maine are the winters. Spring feels so much nicer when you have to “earn it” through a long cold winter with lots of snow. Plus, there is something I’ve always loved about bundling up and braving the cold…builds character.

    Docdave- as for you, you must not spend much time around here. At the Scoop, sports always bleeds into larger issues. I can only speak for myself, but I think most on here enjoy the fact that that on this site we are allowed the liberty to explore the inevitable intersections between sports and life. I know that posters like Laffy can be loose cannons and make the discussions distasteful, but that’s free speech for ya’ – gotta take the outrageous along with the good.

    Here’s an experiment: Spend a day at “Inside the Hall” or “Hoopstaz” and you will see how utterly boring, insulated, and lifeless things can be when you simply “stick to basketball.”

  89. Somebody tell this Laffy dope to shut the F up. Nobody wants to hear your crap. You are the whiniest blogger on here, and always seem to ruin every sensible discussion. I wish we could still block certain bloggers on here.

    Let’s get back to IU basketball

  90. HT- I love ITH. I am on there more than here. I read this blog everyday, just don’t comment that often. There is a time and a place for all things. This is an IU BASKETBALL BLOG, not an anything goes blog.

  91. Scroll past it, crybaby.

    The only whiners are the Thumpers, “Waaaaaaaaah, we’re the VICTIMS for trying to ram our fairy tale down everyone else’s throats. Waaaaaaaahhh!!!!”

  92. Made a trip to Maine 17 years ago. Had a delicious breakfast at the Freeport Inn Cafe that featured a small and delicate pan-fried fillet of fresh brook trout with my plate of eggs.

  93. Our first night in Maine we got off the Istate and started looking for motels. Everyone was getting frustrated with me as I drove past a number of chain boxes. I finally found my target, an old motor court with cabins surrounded by towering pines. Behind the cabins was an old watershed powered grist mill. The restaurant next to it had delicious lobster. They even allowed my two gigantic dogs in the room (140 and 160lbs).

  94. Coach V,
    I didn’t say Crean does believe in evolution. I just said I can’t say for certain that he doesn’t, and that he wouldn’t be the first person (or the thousandth) person I’ve ever met who believes that it’s possible for there to be a God and for there to have been evolution. There are for instance people called Cafeteria Catholics, and I’m not saying he necessarily is one and I don’t use that term perjoratively. I think it’s possible to say, “Yes, I believe there has to be some form of higher power because I believe in science but also believe there are some things that happen that can’t be explained by science. Yes, this Judeo-Christian God and the story of Jesus sounds more plausible than any of the other religious options, but no, I don’t believe the world was created in seven days 6,000 years ago, and that man lived along with dinosaurs and that scientists are in a vast conspiracy to trick us.” Like I said, you can stick to your way of thinking that you either buy every bit of it or you buy none of it, and if you’re in between, you’re a hypocrite, but I think a lot of people are in between. I’d go so far as to say the majority of people who call themselves Christians are not also creationists.

  95. Good vs. Evil?..God vs. No God?…Evolution vs. Creation?
    I say screw all of you.

    I’m with Carl..I just assume think of the big, bad, #1 ranked, Kentucky basketball team as an insignificant “pale blue dot?”

  96. Last week, two days in a row, I had some Thumpers show up at my door trying to convert me. The first were a couple and we talked about 20 minutes.

    The second was a pastor and one of his sheep. We talked for an hour. They thought the ark story actually happened, the earth is only 10,000 years old, and that dinosaurs existed at the same time with man.

    When I asked, “Since man drew everything they saw, including lions, and bears, and giraffes and buffalo and you NAME it….from all over the world….why aren’t there ANY drawings of T Rex or brontosaurus or Pterodactyls or any other dinosaurs?”

    His answer was “I don’t know”…..just like he answered my 20 other questions that proved what a complete joke his fairy tale is.

    Of course, I got the old stand-by at the end: “But what if you’re wrong?”

    Well, what if I say aliens seeded the earth and if you don’t worship them, you’ll BURN forever? What happens “if you’re wrong” and you don’t worship THEM?

    Any God that needs to SCARE you into “loving” him isn’t worth any respect.


  97. Socrates wondered why the Oracle of Rhodes had called him the wisest man in Athens. “Because you (Socrates) know what you don’t know” answered the Oracle. Way, way too complicated of a response for someone so obsessed Laffy. Really hope you get it worked out.

  98. Chet, in Maine I recommend the lobster fishing port of Corea. about 40 minutes from Ellsworth (about one hour plus northeast from Acadia National Park). It is still real there. That whole area is unbelievable.

  99. Every irony meter in the universe just exploded over TT’s comment.

    See, I’m not so arrogant to claim I KNOW what God is/wants/thinks like you Thumpers do.

    I don’t think us humans, including myself, has ANY FREAKING CLUE what “God” is. I just don’t think it’s some “old man” who has self-esteem issues who DEMANDS we WORSHIP him like you hillbillies do.

    That is too absurd for words.

    We’re “created in God’s image”? Bwahahahahahahaha!!!! Get over yourselves.

    And the only ones “obsessed” are the Jesus Freaks who cry 24/7/365 how “oppressed” they are all while trying to JAM their fairy tale and “morals” down our throats.

    They keep saying we “Need to go back to the good old days when this country had morals.”

    Really? When was that, exactly?

    In the 50’s when blacks, gays and women were treated FAR WORSE than they are right now?

  100. dustin

    i guess you’re purposely avoiding my question, which is why should crean be allowed to preach when a grade school or high school teacher, or anyone’s boss for that matter would be fired. maybe it’s because you have to maintain a relationship with coach. maybe it’s because you are young. i just think it’s interesting philosophical fodder.

    well, by tomorrow, i’ll just focus on kicking the hell out of kentucky. i pray to god we win!

  101. Laffy, coachv…We’ll rely on our players playing well and Coach Crean’s game plan to beat Kentucky. Since neither of you sounds capable of making solid plans or performing well,… we’ll pray for you.

  102. OK, for everyone trying to make Christian fundamentalists not be Christian fundamentalists, they’re not going to.

    For all the fundamentalists trying to make other people believe bible stories and deny anthropology and other sciences, well they’re not gonna do that, either.

    I hope that clears everything up.

  103. I tried telling all my buddies that MSU was overrated… That they were a fraud of a #1 seed… Biggest reason I took Mizzou to the Final Four… Too bad they blew it. I was really looking forward to a Marquette/Mizzou match-up tonight.

  104. Laffy, there are hundreds, if not thousands, of drawings, reliefs, clay figurines of dinosaurs all over the world. You really should do a little more research before talking about things you know little of.

    The really sad part is NOBODY here would be saying anything against Crean if he said he was working on his yoga chanting to help him relax.

  105. My Final Four are still aliive(the rest the bracket? Ugh)…I also had MSU folding up tent in this round.

    Can OSU hang on against Cincy? Will Indiana may be the last remaining Big 10 team before we even take the floor against UK?


    Have a blast in Atlanta. Bet it’s nice seeing an old buddy. Go Hoosiers!!

  106. TT— No need to waste your time praying to your invisible sky daddy about me. So, when was this country “moral” like Thumpers keep crying we need to go back to?

    Jeff—Let’s see those “thousands” of drawings of T Rex and Brontos and Pterodactyls from thousands of years ago. I haven’t seen a SINGLE one.

  107. Laffy, if you have not seen any of there drawings, reliefs, or clay figurines, it is because you just haven’t taken the time to look. Do you read the National Geographic? As an example, there are over 50,000 Inca burial stones showing creatures such as the triceatops and pterodactyls. You need to look this up on your own. I will give you a hint. Try using France, Utah, or Inca as part of your search in your search engine.

    Also, PLEASE take the time to read the Bible with an open heart and open mind.

  108. Jeff-

    Just to let you know, yoga isn’t a religion.

    If you are trying to paint yoga as some “leftist” equivalent, you are a moron. Yoga is about as mainstream as Starbucks and wifi these days. Entire NFL teams have incorporated yoga into their training routines. Go to a yoga class at IU and you will see students from all backgrounds and religious persuasions. Even my father, a staunch conservative with Parkinson’s, has been attending weekly yoga classes for several years (taught by a transgendered woman). Says it has helped him immeasurably.

  109. Jeff:

    Just to let you know, yoga isn’t a religion.

    If you are trying to paint yoga as some “leftist” equivalent, you are a truly ignorant. Yoga is about as mainstream as Starbucks and wifi these days. Entire NFL teams have incorporated yoga into their training routines. Go to a yoga class at IU and you will see students from all backgrounds and religious persuasions. Even my father, a staunch conservative with Parkinson’s, has been attending weekly yoga classes for several years (taught by a transgendered woman). Says it has helped him immeasurably.

  110. Jeff, I’ve had a NG subscription for 40 years. Never saw an ancient representation of a dinosaur.

    That’s probably due to the million year separation between humanoids and dinosaurs.

    Just a guess.

  111. Harvard, thanks guy. We’re heading out early to catch the festivities. It’s about a three hour drive. He brought me some appropriate apparel as my collection is in tatters.

    Out tickets appear to be next to the press table so, Dustin, that’s where the spit wads are coming from.

  112. HT, thanks for your posts 124 and (especially) 125. I read the first then I read the second. I was a bit reluctant to fully agree with you on the first one but I was a believer by the time I finished the second. Now I like the first better and I look forward to re-read the second soon.

    Meanwhile my religion is TLT. The man is just … awesome. Watch tonight!

  113. Show me the links, Jeff.

    Sure is odd that NO SCIENTIST has seen them in “National Geographic” either.

    And I’ve read your entire fairy tale.

    Oh, and that’s another thing I hate about you Thumpers. If we don’t buy your fairy tale, you just cry, “You aren’t reading it with an open heart.”


    Well, you don’t believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster because “you don’t have an open heart.”

  114. TT….eat caca.

    You Thumpers are all the same.

    When proven to be full of crap, you just say nonsense like that.

  115. Jeff,

    Also, I’d be willing to bet that no one has been murdered in the name of yoga…

    I’m not against Christians or Christianity, just saying… Religion will always be a controversial topic because millions of people have been killing each other over thousands of years in the names of their gods.

    I’d be SHOCKED if 1 person was ever even harmed by another person in the name of Yoga. Unless maybe it was an unstable person who was like, “if you don’t let me do my yoga tonight I’m going to hit you!” and then they actually smacked them…

    Or maybe I could see if one of those Star Wars groupies, who happened to be a “little person”, was in line to have their unopened Princess Leia doll signed by Carrie Fisher and had been standing in line for 3 days waiting for the doors to open, when all of a sudden this other dude cuts in front of him and the midget goes berserk… Just absolutely nuts… And he yells at the guy before attacking him, but because he is so angry and frothing at the mouth he yells, “KILL YOU I WILL! I’m going to go all Yoga on your ass… Mmmmmmm.”. And of course the midget meant to say Yoda, but well, you get it… Now the guy gets arrested for assault and Carrie Fisher is afraid of him and he’s never going to get his action figure signed.

    So yeah, no one ever gets killed in the name of yoga I guess is my point.

  116. Geoff, didn’t you get the memo?

    When God kills someone, whether it be humans or a fetus, it isn’t “murder.”

    Same if his sheep kill people in “his name.”

    We’re his “play toys” and he can do ANYTHING he wants with us….even torture…..even though he’s “loving and just.”

    Great point about no one being killed in the name of yoga. And last time I checked, people who practice yoga don’t disown their OWN CHILDREN because they are gay like Thumpers do.

  117. Laffy, aren’t you thumping now? As Chet would say, substantiate your rumor that all thumpers disown their own for being gay.
    Why no comment regarding the price of oil?

  118. Coach V,
    I’m not answering the question about whether or not he should be allowed to discuss it because I’m not entirely certain of the nature of how he’s doing it and what the rules are for people in his position. As a college basketball coach, to what degree does Tom Crean represent the state in the separation of church and state? As you said, high school and grade school teachers can get in trouble for doing what he’s doing. But even in state schools, I’ve always been under the impression that even college professors were different, and that part of the point of tenure is being able to express your beliefs without fear of reprisal and that college students were to be educated through a variance of beliefs and ideas — some way to the left, some way to the right — instead of having every teacher play it straight down the middle as in a grade school setting. I’m literally not sure how that applies to a basketball coach. You mentioned taxpayer money, well, Tom Crean doesn’t REALLY get paid through taxpayer funds. You can argue that it all goes in the same pot so it’s all theoretically mixed in there, but IU’s athletic department is self-sustaining, and obviously, if IU is selling 17,000 tickets to 19 games a year and bringing in NCAA Tournament and Big Ten Network money in large part because of the basketball program, then Crean’s salary is being paid for through that. In addition, most of his salary comes from Adidas and various media contracts anyway, so I think it’s safe to say that he’s really being paid for without public funding.
    Now, the real question is whether he has crossed the line from simply imparting his beliefs to his players to imposing. And there’s a question of where that line actually is. He’s allowed to believe what he wants to believe. He can’t make someone else believe what he believes. Has he crossed that line? That’s a question I intend to ask.

  119. Meth head 40 year old women in blue mini dresses accompanied by guys with mullets wearing sunglasses indoors.

  120. i would contend that he is officially a state employee. i guess you’ll look into that when you write your story. i look forward to readeing it. there is probably a law professor at iu who could talk about legal ramifications.

    time to get my drink on. enjoy the game. who are you rooting for?

  121. UK fans are at their meth induced best. Yelling at everyone and anyone that no one stands a chance against their merry band of mercenaries.

  122. Well Chet to be fair, if I had their team I’d probably be yelling the same thing… Amd I’ve never even seen meth.

  123. You really have to be here to appreciate it. Pregnant girls in blue halter tops and flip flops yelling in a drunken slur. Quite attractive.

  124. is the leading provider of WoWGold, FFXI Gil, RS Gold,EverQuest Platinum, and Warhammer online gold.MMOG STOP delivers fast, safe and always guaranteed.

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