Ron Patterson not enrolling at Indiana for 2012-13 season

Chris Hawkins, Ron Patterson’s AAU coach, said that Patterson will not be enrolling at Indiana for the 2012-13 season. This alleviates Indiana’s scholarship crunch, but it also means the Hoosiers lose a highly regarded shooting guard from Broad Ripple. The four-star guard graduated from Broad Ripple as the school’s all-time leading scorer. The 6-foot-3 wing with a wingspan over 7-feet was considered one of the best defenders in the Class of 2012. More to come on this.

UPDATE: Spoke to a source for some background on this. Patterson had been academically qualified through his combination of standardized test scores and high school grades. However, Patterson apparently had a very difficult summer academically and will not be admitted to IU this year. A meeting of a council of faculty advisors handed that decision down on Wednesday. Patterson has the option of transferring to a four-year college or also going to prep school. If he does attend a prep school, he will likely still be recruited by IU going forward.

UPDATE: Some more background. A major issue at play in Patterson’s case is faculty sponsorship. Faculty sponsorship is a program that is available for not only student athletes but any student whose grades and test scores do not necessarily qualify them for “automatic” admission to Indiana, but that have good probabilities of being able to handle the necessary work and might often be able to bring other talents to the university. (I.e. certain music majors might qualify). Faculty members in that case agree to take on these students as a sponsor. Most athletes are on sponsorship, as the standards for regular students are fairly high and students that might be considered better than average in high school might still need sponsorships.

The is a screening process, however, for those students to determine whether they can actually handle the work. Simply put, Patterson did not pass this process. There will be more details to come.

UPDATE: Tom Crean just put out a statement on Ron Patterson: “We think very highly of Ron and will continue to work with him as allowed to help him reach his goals.  He has the chance to do some special things for himself and his family and we will be supportive of whatever he chooses to do.”


  1. Reggie, I believe his cap hit would be too high this season. This is the reason one of the incoming freshman (RP) is leaving as opposed to a current player (AE).

  2. Problem solved. Crean was right. These things do have a way of working themselves out.

    As for not having a shooting guard on the squad this year, I think we have a pretty good shooting guard in the form of Hulls. And of course, the other guards should have improved their shooting since the end of their last season.

  3. I really hope that Crean didn’t offer this kid a scholarship and then pull it right before class starts. I hope that others would have a problem with that as well.

  4. JeremyK,

    I do not have a problem with it. I do have a problem with IU offering so many acceptance letters to kids from New York and New Jersey. We should revoke these offers.

    Wang Wang
    age 69

  5. Laffy, not sure about grades, but I’d love you hear your grade for my team:

    1. RB Shonn Greene
    2. WR Santonio Holmes
    3. TE Dustin Keller
    4. QB Mark Sanchez
    5. QB Tim Tebow
    6. RB Stephen Hill
    7. RB Joe McKnight
    8. RB Bilal Powell
    9. QB Chad Pennington
    10. WR Chaz Schilens
    11. RB Terrance Ganaway
    12. NYJ Defense
    13. K Josh Brown

    I know I am a little weak at WR, but I have great depth at QB and WR. I’ll probably try to move Pennington first for a WR as RBs tend to get hurt often.

  6. This stinks. Its laughable how Crean quotes the Bible, yet does stuff like this to a recruit. Next year will be more of the same due to overrecruiting. IU can dress it up anyway they wish, but it all goes to someone had to go. Capo-screwed;Roth-screwed; now Patterson -screwed. Screw Crean.

  7. Wow, it amazes me that so many posters on this site, calling themselves Hoosier fans, can be so skeptical, even cynical, about Crean’s character! For example, JeremyK wrote, “I really hope that Crean didn’t offer this kid a scholarship and then pull it right before class starts.”

    How about we start holding our water until the facts are in? How about we recognize that this is not Crean’s first Head coaching job. How about we have some faith in the people that vetted Crean and hired him because their research indicated that he was an honorable man. All these negative aspersions are damaging to Crean’s image and IU Basketball’s image. And where does it come from? What is it based on?

    Crean has done nothing to indicate that he is a rule breaker or unethical in any way. If you site his “over-recruiting,” you are ignoring the facts of life for big time college basketball programs and the dynamic nature of college athletics. These days, highly talented players leave their college teams like never before. They leave early for the NBA, they transfer for lack of playing time, they break the rules and get kicked off the team, or they suffer career-ending injuries. If a coach wants to maintain a top-five college basketball team year in and year out, his first priority must be to keep recruiting the best talent. If he does not, he risks displeasing his rabid fan base that has unrealistic expectations and ultimately losing his job.

    If you want IU basketball to return to the nation’s elite college basketball programs and then stay there year in and year out, then what we refer to as “over-recruiting” is going to remain a common practice at IU, like it is for all the other powerhouse basketball programs. So let’s stop casting aspersions at Crean and wake up to the reality that this is no longer your father’s college basketball.

  8. Dustin
    You said in your article today that prep school would still be an option. I have never heard of a student accepted into college and then taking college classes then deciding to attend a prep school after starting college. You went to college out East where prep schools are more common. Have you ever heard of such a scenario. Seems unusual to me. Seems like going to another college (4 year or JC) would be more reasonable.

  9. Podunker,

    I didn’t assume that Crean had run him off, I just hoped that he didn’t. I’m “glad” that it wasn’t a last second, “somebody’s got to go” but rather it was an academic issue. It’s good finally have this behind us, and now we can move forward.

  10. Seems like a hard blow to take with only one week before the official start of fall classes. Never saw him play in person, but from what I could get from various clips, I really liked this kid’s intensity and focus on the court.

    He looked like a very heady kid on the basketball court…very natural and fluid in his decision making and movements.

    I won’t get into direct comparisons against other Hoosiers that will be on our 2012-13 roster, but Patterson, in my humble opinion, was far from the end of the bench on the talent and ‘upside’ scale.

    Good luck to him.

  11. real IU fan; you might want to read the news before saying “this stinks ” and implying that Crean is a hypocrite. You now have a lot of egg on your face. If Ron Patterson performance in summer school indicates he can’t handle IU’s academic requirements, then the best thing Crean could do for the young man is to help him go to prep school or transfer to a school with less demanding academic standards. Your post #10 was outrageous and wrong.

    real Wang Wang, gosh, how do you get something so completely wrong? Your statement about Bird is ridiculous and totally wrong. Larry Bird was not run off from IU, he quit school weeks before the team’s first BB practice. He was in a bad place emotionally, and like a lot of 18 year olds that are away from home for the first time, was dealing with some self doubt and feeling like a fish out of water on a college campus. He has testified to this on numerous occasions and never once uttered a word of criticism toward IU or Bob Knight. If you knew anything about Larry Bird’s history, you’d know that he left IU for reasons that had nothing to do with Bob Knight, the basketball team or any IU administrator. Bird was confused and needed to go home and sort some things out.

  12. JeremyK,

    I am appalled that you are “glad” at an academic failure.

    Only 27% of the US adult population has a bachlor’s degree, roughly the same amount that has genital herpes.

    Now, I hope you are “glad”.

  13. The white part of my over easy eggs was just a little bit runny this morning. Sure, I cooked the eggs but I can’t help but feel like it was all CTC’s fault.

    You can count on one thing, if he was at Kaintuck and his coach was named Calapari he would have gotten all ‘A’s. Even if he never showed up for class.

  14. That’s the way this has to go. It comes down to a committee of academics deciding whether or not a particular recruit is ready to do academic work towards a degree. That is a decision that has nothing to do with football, basketball or any other sport.

    I also agree with the comments by ‘Jeremy K’ and ‘Real IU Fan’. Podunker, not only is Hulls available to take the ‘shooting guard’ responsibilities, but luckily so is Matt Roth, one of the top three point shooters in the US last year, a great Hoosier and obviously a great and very serious student. Not sure it worked itself out as far as our practices going forward. Tom Crean should adopt a policy of not over recruiting as a gesture to ethics.

  15. JeremyK
    Has CTC done ANYTHING to date that would cause us NOT to trust what he is doing with the basketball program????
    The answer is NO.

  16. Since some are alluding this was CTC’s doing I’m curious just where does the “council of faculty advisors” fall in the coaching staff hierarchy? Do they report directly to Coach Crean or is it down the line? Maybe to Calbert Cheaney?

  17. Podunker, can you comment on my mock draft results? My team draft is tomorrow evening. I heard you are a fantasy expert. Thx Wang Squared.

  18. Chet, are you as much of an expert as Podunker? Thank you for your analysis. Anything I should look to upgrade?

  19. Somebody had to go..It might as well be the kid that had the worst grades. College should only be for those that can afford tutors, or have parents that contribute thousands of dollars,…or politicians sons, our sons of Fortune 500 companies..or NBA one-and-dones..

    It’s for the hard-boiled sure thing. What the hell ever happened to affirmative action? Harvard excludes more highly qualified candidates into programs all of the time. I guess our basketball team is moving into a standard that believes the ‘sure thing’ is the ‘only thing’ worth making a human investment in.

    An inner city high school name Broad Ripple just had a wake up call to how it works in America.

  20. Sorry Tsao, but if Roth is on the the team this year, it will be as a walk-on, non-scholarship player. Yesterday, including Roth in the numbers, Crean had 15 players for 2012/2013 (see the news article in today’s IU Sports section). With Patterson’s departure, that makes 14, which is still too many. Assuming Roth is not on the team as a scholarship player, that gets it down to the legal limit of 13 scholarship players. It looks as if Roth is either not going to be on the team at all, or he will be on the team as a walk-on (Dustin, can you please verify that Roth can be the 14th player on the team as a walk-on).

    If that’s what Roth wants to do, I support him and I believe all Hoosier fans will welcome him back. But what I don’t know is, how much will it cost him to be a walk-on and what are the NCAA’s academic requirements. Can he simply take one class each semester, or does he need to be a full-time student?

  21. Hillbilly,
    He might as well learn now how the real world works. If there are two applicants for a job you can bet the one with the higher degree, gpa, etc. will get the job. So are you advicating IU lower its academic standards just to win basketball games??? pUKe

  22. Tsao, did you really just write, “I also agree with the comments by ‘Jeremy K’ and ‘Real IU Fan’? Please tell me you were not referring to (agreeing with) their posts #5 and #10 respectively.

    Was that you or was someone posing as you to smear your integrity?

  23. Guys, let me tell you about when I was in Korea.

    It just so happened that there were 2 beautiful ladies that wanted my attention. One was wealthy, but her father threatened to cut of the ring finger of any man that touched her. The other one was pretty but had a pet dog. In those days, people with dogs were considered filthy. What did I do? Took the dog out back and shot it, then took the second girl on a date. That girl ended up being my wife of 15 months. True story. Am I sorry I did it? Yes, I regreted it everyday. But the first girl ended up never marrying, so I called her after the first marriage ended and we ended up running off to America. Been married every since. I hope that my situation makes sense and relates to this situation at IU.

  24. Anyone who thinks this had nothing to do with the oversign situation is fooling themselves. I’m pretty sure if it was Perea, Hollowell, or Ferrell they would be offering more assistance with school work, not yanking a scholly.

  25. Are you serious about Crean. The guy was just voted one of the top 5 cheaters in college hoops. CBSSPORTS.COM. In year one he makes illegal phone call saying he didnt know if Sunday was the end or the start of a new week. (LOOK IT UP BEFORE THE CALL CREAN), then he had secondary NCAA VIOLATION in the recruitment of Gary Harris. 10/6 vs 10/5. Every Coach on the planet has 10/5 circled on their calander. Then simply google AHOPE & Tom Crean and his ties to Mark Adams a BLOOMINGTON AAU COACH. In my opinion, Crean is as dirty as they come and hides behind his religous tweets.

  26. Crean lost his credibilty over the Harris recruiting situation by blaming his staff for overlooking a date certain–in my opinion. Its obvious some parents don’t buy all his B.S. and goody-goody persona i.e. harris,Lyles etc. Tht oversign issues just cement that opinion as well as his childlike tweets.

  27. REAL IU FAN,



  28. You guys are either overly sensitive, trying to find something to argue about, or read at 3rd grade level. All I said was that I hoped that our coach wasn’t running players off that he had promised a scholarship to. It turns out that he wasn’t and that there was a legitimate reason that Patterson could not attend IU.

    I’m not glad that Patterson struggled in class. I am glad that Crean continues to be what we want and expect him to be. Good luck to Ron wherever he ends up.

  29. Podunker…….you’re re-writing history to say Bird’s leaving had “nothing” to do with Bobby.

    Knight wouldn’t even say hi to him when they walked by each other on the street.

    Was it the main reason he left? No. But that broke the camel’s back.

    As far as the crybabies about Crean being “unethical”, Knight let known pot smokers on the team.

  30. No offense to him but Ron Patterson looks like the type of guy who would flunk classes. We need players like VO, Jordy, and CZ. No tatoos, well groomed short hair, and high academics.

  31. For those of you who continue to rant about that dirty villain Tom Crean and his evil plot to destroy the IU basketball program: Get a life, Bobby is not coming back. No coach in America runs a cleaner program – most have several of the minor infractions like he’s committed every year. Crean has been to this rodeo many times before and knew that something was bound to go wrong – a foreign kid was going to get taken down by the NCAA, somebody was going to flunk out of summer school, someone was going to volunteer to play as a walk-on, somebody was going to get homesick and leave, etc. It turns out that Patterson couldn’t handle actual college classes. Better we find this out now than later when he’s taken valuable minutes from someone else who can stay in school. So, off he goes to some ‘university’ with no real academic standards (welcome to Lexington, young man) and life goes on.

  32. As of today, Matt Roth is still not listed in the IU directory. So I do not see him playing this year

  33. Really real IU fan and Reggie,

    You both are ignorant pricks. Judging a person’s academic ability by the way he looks. I hope Ron Patterson is accepted into another college and graduates before heading off to marry both your daughters at the same time before taking them both on a long vacation then selling them both into slavery and sending you each a Christmas card detailing this. Have a good day.

  34. Wow, history is being revised on this site. This has become an urban legend.

    Laffy, my sister-in-law knew Larry Bird from High School, knew Larry Bird for the short time he attended IU, and spoke to him after he decided to leave IU. His departure had nothing to do with Knight not talking to him, or ignoring him, or failing to say hello to him, or any of that nonsense. Larry Bird was not run-off. He has spoken to this subject to the media several times. His reasons for leaving IU at the time has been well documented in the media.

    Knight has expressed regret that he was not aware and/or sensitive of Bird’s feelings at the time and had not taken the opportunity to meet with him immediately upon his arrival on campus. But Knight, nor anyone else, would have even had the time to run Larry off campus. He was not on campus long enough.

  35. Guys, take what Podunker says with a grain of salt. He also failed to grade my fantasy football mock draft.

    For the record, B+ (little weak at WR).

  36. Podunker…yes I did write what you stated. Confusing on my part, you have every right to question my post #32 in as far as I was not clear. In the case of JeremyK I was in agreement with his statement …”I’m “glad” that it wasn’t a last second, ‘somebody’s got to go’ but rather it was an academic issue”. (I’m also not ‘glad’ about young Patterson having an academic issue. That itself makes me a bit sad for the player. Hopefully, it will work out for the best for him first, and us second.

    In the posting by ‘Real IU Fan’, I should have said that I was glad we avoided (so far, anyway) a dilemma where we had to choose between equally negative choices; forcing a player out due to his injury while playing for the Hoosiers, taking a scholarship away promised to a new player or forcing a player out who had come to Indiana under the impression he would have his scholarship while eligible under NCAA rules and in solid academic shape.

    I also should be clear that I truly believe that Bob Knight would not have been in the same position. Knight would have offers to 15 players and made it very clear that the first 12 to accept them received them, putting the onus on them to decide. As for recruiting practices in college basketball today Podeunker, do you think I give a rat’s arse? Why would I even consider what Calipari or Scott Drew and staff do to attract players? All Drew has accomplished is to soiled his father’s name. Or, would you feel better about our recruitment if we sent them letters to prospects threatening to have them deported if they don’t accept our offers. Podunker…I repeat, IMHO) you need to re-evaluate the implications. They are not worthy of you.

  37. These comments are mostly rubbish, excluding Podunker who actually comprehends the news in the article. Dustin is struggling to explain the sponsorship program by the faculty. We all know how terrific the tutoring for athletes is at IU. The incredible shame is on Nroad Ripple HS and the Indu Public Schools. Keep positive Ron, Big Strve Downing faced a similar issue and was a great player at IU and a masters graduate now in university administration!

  38. While I don’t understand what Dustin means either, I do understand the severity of Pearl Harbor.

  39. Oopsies- [Podeunker]=Podunker
    [All Drew has accomplished is to soiled his father’s name]/ soiled=soil

  40. BeatPurdue,
    You’re right. I am struggling, but I’ll get it right in time to write something that makes sense for tomorrow’s paper.
    You may have noticed that your comment was deleted. Remember what I said about at 15 not knowing what you don’t know? That’s the kind of stuff I was referring to.

  41. Dustin,

    Thank you for deleting Reggie’s comment. I also thought it was disrespectful. Do you want to meet up for drinks?

    Wang Wang

  42. After reading the 49 posts, all I can say is Wow, this brought the crazies out.

    The real question is; If the # of scholarship were not an issue would Mr. Patterson still be in the program?

    I would trust Coach Crean to be ethical and I hope that any and all support possible be provided to Mr. Patterson.

    This must be crushing to him.

  43. I have a bit of a different idea regarding the reason for the recommendation by the faculty group. Since Patterson was originally admitted, enrolled and allowed to take classes this summer, the issue may have come about as a result of some red flag seen during this period. Either some deficiency more serious than first believed was spotted or some issue regarding the student’s work habits, attendance, tardiness… These are just speculations on my part but they would also clarify why prep schools are being mentioned. (Many students come to IU without the proper development of academic work habit or sufficient self-discipline. Indiana U. is particularly noted for being very careful and supporting students who come in with academic deficiencies through nationally recognized offerings such as the Groups Program. The one thing these programs make clear is that they raise the student’s academic performance to meet Indiana University academic standards. I believe these same supports may have counseled that Ron Patterson needed additional work to be academically ready for the rigors in Bloomington. That’s how it should be. We achieve nothing and take opportunity away from Ron Patterson by lowering expectations as an IU student.

    Harvard, Broad Ripple was one of the long time top high schools in Indianapolis. Many IU heroes including Mike Woodson, former qb Byron Broome, sprinter Don Poland came from Ripple.

    I do understand that the demographics have changed significantly in the BR area but it continues to be a middle class community now with a significantly larger middle class African American population. I doubt that Affirmative Action is or should be a program that resolves differences by lowering standards. True affirmative action is achieved when true equity is followed as a model and equality achieved upwards.

    At IU expectations of Ron Patterson were and are great in the classroom, in basketball and in his career, whether in the NBA or as a professional in another field. Steve Downing is and should be the figure not only for Patterson to emulate but for the Hoosiers to hold out as a model of what Patterson could achieve when attending and graduating from Indiana University.

  44. If there is anything in life I hate to see, it is an unhappy Purdue fan. Just fire Coach Crean and make then happy!!! Steve Mc Brian

  45. I see Kentucky in his future! They don’t care about grades because grades don’t matter! LOL! I’m glad for IU’s sake this happened now rather than later when it could have really hurt! Go Hoosiers!

  46. If a demographic exists that can sail blithely off the deep end more quickly and with more creativity than IU basketball fans, I am not familiar with it. I mean it’s amazing how simultaneously intellectual and insane comment strings can be on this blog.

    I really don’t think this situation is all that unusual. Non-qualifiers go to prep school sometimes. Perhaps Ron’s struggles this summer led him to realize that he’d benefit from a year at prep school. If he does that, solidifies his academics and enrolls at IU next year, we’ll all comment on how glad we are he’s back, how supportive IU was during his year at prep school and so on. If he enrolls elsewhere and plays this year, we’ll just be angry, but that’s the way it goes if your school actually has,then adheres to, academic standards when admitting all students, including athletes.

    Ron,I hope we see you at IU in the future; if not, good luck to you wherever your path leads.

  47. I don’t care what you sister’s hairdresser’s lawnboy’s cousin said.

    Bird said he was treated like dog feces by both Knight and the players.

  48. Why are we offering scholarships to athletes who aren’t qualified academically in the first palce?

  49. I will say it plain and simple–if IU was not oversigned either the C- would be a C or the appeal would have been approved.

  50. Ron (in Fl )-

    Perfectly articulated and genuinely sincere. Funny how we lose sight of a young man’s feelings. Not everyone can attend the finest public high schools in Indiana. Not everyone can be fully prepared for the rigors of college when not properly prepared in a very unequal education system. Not everyone is in the “elite’ class of athlete to be pulled from their home towns with offers to attend private academies their final couple years of high school. Caught in the middle…Not special enough in their hoops talent to be wanted by corrupt guys like Calipari or private academies that serve as camps for Duke, NC, etc. Not down the totem pole enough to escape the possibility of having the enticement of dreams to play at strong basketball programs with legit academic institutions the system has failed to prepare him.

    Vote for Romney. He’s planning on turning the
    Broad Ripples of the world into Park Tudors for all.

    Would we have recruited and offered this young man if there were warning signs his course work/grades at the high school were suspect? Sure seems fishy to give up on him because of a tough summer semester.

  51. I hate this a boat load as RP is my favorite player on the “Movement”. Other than the obvious academic theme I will not speculate as to how the details have transpired. I’ll add that this is an excellent opportunity for Remy and Creek(if healthy). The negative is team D will not reach the heights it could have with RP as he is such a bearcat playing on the ball and the practices will not be as intense with his absence. I only hope he places himself in a situation that will bring him to IU next year with a chip on his shoulder.

  52. Laffed-at, please provide the quote/source for the information Larry Bird was treated bad by IU players and RMK. I want absolute proof not rumors or your bias. Take as much time as you need, you’ll need it and more.

  53. Patterson did qualify academically by both his grades and his standardized test scores. That was stated in the article. It was college course work that he was not succeeding in.

  54. Tsao – you always try to make your case by using the lowest common denominator. No one wants, or will stand for, Crean using Calipari’s recruiting techniques. Drew doesn’t have the best reputation either.

    But here’s the thing. There are lots of schools that work within the rules, have high standards, have great GSR’s, AND win….

    That’s what fans like Podunker and I want to see from Crean and IU.

    There is a huge amount of territory between Izzo and Calipari. I think most IU fans would be just fine to play within the rules in the current environment like a Kansas, Duke, MSU, UNC, etc.

    Quit going to UK to make your argument…. It’s weak.

  55. Bird left IU due to homesickness and harassment from Kent Benson.(read his autobiography). Not due to Knight- although Knight did not try to dissuade him.

  56. Doesn’t Finkelmeier still have a year of eligibility? Be nice gesture to let him be part of our deep tournament run. He didn’t even get to experience a Sweet 16. ..Pushed off so we could make room for Jeremiah Rivers. Check into it, Dustin. Can he still use that year of eligibility?

    BRING BACK THE FINK! Screw Roth.

  57. A bit surprising. I thought after reading today’s article in the HT that the solution would be that one of the players would qualify for financial aid based purely on academics and could walk on, not needing an athletic scholarship. After all, the academics are supposed to be remarkably good under TC. That said, did Patterson have any obligation to attend summer school? I’m sure that at certain universities, he would have just rolled up for his freshman year, done poorly academically, and then left for the NBA. So kudos to IU if they do indeed require their recruits to be vetted academically in summer school before their first “real” semester when the pressure would be that much greater.

  58. Yeah, that’s a football story and Peppers was on a football scholarship. Nice try though Harvard.

    We are talking basketball in this particular thread.

  59. Tsao, thank you for providing me with the information I need to confirm that you have projected things on to the Roth case. Your sentence in Post #46 hits the nail right on the head. You write, “…… or forcing a player out who had come to Indiana under the impression he would have his scholarship while eligible under NCAA rules and in solid academic shape.” That’s a classic example of projection. You don’t know if any part of that statement is true. It certainly is not factual, it’s your projection. That’s 100% speculation on your part, with an erroneous assumption thrown in. “Forced out?” Roth was not forced out. According to his own statement published in the Chicago newspaper, Roth’s status for 2012/2013 was, at worst, up in the air at the time the story was published. At the time, Roth was not offered a scholarship for a fifth year of eligibility. It was still up in the air. But that does not mean he was forced out of the program. Furthermore, you have no idea what impression Roth was under when he chose to come to Indiana! I dare say most athletes are under the impression that if they attend college on an athletic scholarship, they are under the impression that they will have to earn the scholarship year to year, that the coaches’ discretion is always a part of the equation, and that if they do not suffer an injury, they will be done in four or five years. Roth suffered an injury that deprived him of playing time during his second year, but for the umpteenth time, all that means is that he was eligible to play a fifth year. HE WAS NOT entitled. You have to understand the difference between eligible and entitled before you can cast aspersions about Crean compromising his integrity or doing some injustice to Roth.

    And by the way, the entire purpose of the fifth-year-of-eligibility rule for college athletes is that, given there dedication, time-committment to athletics and risk of injury, which can and often do detract from their focus on academics, some athletes might need an extra year to complete the academic work necessary to get a degree. Since Roth completed his undergraduate and graduate degrees in four years, the “spirit” of the fifth-year-of-eligibility-rule really does not apply to him. Putting it another way, the rule is intended to allow student athletes to complete their degree, NOT to enjoy a victory lap in the case where their team is likely to have a very successful season.

    And let’s be honest here. It has always been the case that the student-athlete’s value to the college team is a variable that is taken into consideration when coaches determine if they are going to offer a fifth year of scholarship for a fifth-year eligible player. And while I agree that if Roth had not completed his degree by the end of his fourth year, he would have absolutely been ENTITLED to that fifth year of scholarship. But that was not the case with Roth, who already had two degrees by the end of his fourth year.

    This entire issue, and the fifth year rule, is supposed to be about academics. Getting an education and completing one’s degree and preparing for life after college, in the real world. The secondary objective might then be to enjoy a wonderful athletic experience as a part of a successful team. But if IU was not projected to be a top-five team this year, would you, or anyone else be arguing on behalf of Roth so vigorously?

  60. Listen to Colin Cowherd on the clip…He covers basketball and all NCAA academic rigors as it applies to the college athlete. I tend to agree with nearly everything he says. Take Duke, NC, and the rest off your pedestal, Geoff. There’s a ton of gray and the time and devotion in hours it takes to be a top college athlete forces schools to invent systems/classes that enables survival for many that are already ill-equipped the demands. You need to wake up to the reality and quit pretending success for your “elite” class of programs(those you leave IU looking enviously up to..Duke, NC, Kansas, etc.) is because they do everything clean and proper.

    Start from about the 1:00 mark of the Cowherd clip..He does a fine job of getting to the truth of the entire landscape a facade.

    Wasn’t it revealed that one of the top players in the NBA had his SAT test taken by paid fill-in? He still managed to get through one hell of a tough year of classes at Memphis while being coached by the most ethical man on the planet.

  61. BritishHoosierFan,
    I probably should’ve been more detailed about potential academic aid. Full academic rides are extremely difficult to get. It’s not the sort of thing you can get just because you’re carrying a 3.2 or even because you had a 3.9 in high school. You really have to be off the charts. Plus, I imagine the standards are even higher for athletes coming off of scholarship. The academics aren’t looking to make that process a loophole to back-channel scholarships to athletes. The Hoosiers get a lot of respect for their academic successes in terms of graduating early and what not and they deserve it. They’re better than average students, but they aren’t quite Rhodes Scholars.

  62. If I remember correctly, just last year, IU recruited a back-up center, who had played four years at LSU, completed his degree, but was still eligible to play a fifth year. His goal was to obtain a fifth year of scholarship at a school where he could pursue his Masters degree. I think he picked Wichita State or San Diego State (not sure). For the record, I’m pretty sure, that at the time, I expressed my disdain for the rule that allowed a grown man that had already earned his degree, taking a scholarship year and roster spot away from a younger student-athlete.

    Just saying.

  63. “I also should be clear that I truly believe that Bob Knight would not have been in the same position.” Again, more speculation on your part. You have no idea what Knight would have done in this situation. Did the same rules even apply back then?

    As I said in a previous post on this string, “this is not your father’s college basketball.” Times have changed. College basketball is much more dynamic now than it was when Knight was IU’s coach. Recruiting is a far more complex and difficult aspect of the college coaching job today than it was 30 and 40 years ago. And before we place a halo over Knight’s head, let’s remember that he “ran off” (to use someone’s previous language) a lot of players during his tenure as coach at IU and TX Tech. But after he won a National Championship, I don’t remember anyone questioning his integrity when one of his players transferred out of the program.

  64. Izzo took Brandon Wood under the same conditions…I think Geoff inferred that Izzo was one of the most ethical in the game. If it’s good for Izzo, then it’s good for college basketball..If it’s good for Wood, than why not good for Roth?

  65. I can assure you..There are hundreds of coaches that would have no problem finding a flaw in the academics of one of their incoming freshman, squeeze them out of the picture, to have the 2nd best shooting guard in the country coming off the bench.

    Izzo had to squeeze somebody out to bring in Brandon Wood at the very last legal minute.

    If Roth was Brandon Wood, would any of you be worrying about the poor little freshman that will be screwed over? Brandon Wood was a very valuable member of that MSU team last year..For what it’s worth, many said he was a not of very good character; an egocentric, conceited jerk on top of already having his degree. Just happens to be that he is a damn good basketball player. It’s o.k. to set aside values and let someone that should be getting on with their life play hoops within that convenient scenario. I tend to call that extreme hypocrisy.

  66. Post #49 by far the best on this thread.

    Also, Crean spent time in Matthew 10 this morning:

    Jesus called his twelve disciples to him […].

    The way I read this, another one will bite the dust very soon.

  67. I think everyone has forgotten something Ron Patterson is a person and needs to be respected as that. It made me sick that not only he is a player but he is also a student too. Everyone needs to remember that he is a student first then a ball player second. I like what Dustin said that Indiana will still keep eye on him come people he is part of the Fab five at Indiana.
    I also have to laugh going after Coach Crean saying he needs to get rid of someone that we already have. I have to laugh. Five years ago someone whom i will never mention destroyed a very proud and a still a top program in the country. Brought us to the bottom of the College Basketball. Then what happen last season the HOOSIERS ARE BACK! Coach Crean has brought this program back! To say what people say bunch of crap. I believe what he is doing here and i know the young ponies and what we have coming back will make more of a statement then some of these so weather fans. I have seen the bottom all we can do is show College basketball that we belong back on top of it!!! Go Hoosiers!!

  68. Podunker…of course it’s all speculation based on the facts as we know them. It’s all speculation; your observations, my observations, Chet’s, Harvard’s…what else are we doing here? We come to this blog because we are all beyond-repair IU fans and we enjoy the b.s. We base our comments on the facts as we read them here, in the Indy Star, in the rare stories in the Chicago Tribune or Sun Times, and other equally unreliable places. And our sources are people like Dustin who have their own sources we don’t know, or the bits and pieces we pick up from reading each other and we all know how unreliable that is…thus, we don’t know what we don’t know except that we are all convinced that half the people who claim to be our sources don’t know what the hell they’re talking about either.

    On my comment on Knight, pure speculation but based on the following. When I said, “… I truly believe that Bob Knight…” was based on speculation on his history of handling scholarship kids. First, I heard- the word is heard- Knight say he made his decision about which kids he would go after, offer them scholarships (if they were academically qualified) and then close out his recruiting by the first X (number) kids- as per the number of scholarships he had. He also told them exactly what that number was and kept them posted.

    The reason I believe so was his reaction to the Glen Grunwald injury(the summer before enrolling); and how personally Knight took the Landon Turner situation. Add the fat that Knight was not at all afraid to tell a player he’d had it with him for attitude, lack of work ethics or behavioral issues and dismiss him from the team…all add up to my conjecture.

    I believe Bob Knight would not have created a melodrama out of telling someone where the Greyhound bus station was located. He’d have driven them there.

    Finally Podunker…I’ve truly tried to deal with our disagreement in a respectful manner even making it clear that I normally do not disagree with you and am uncomfortable doing so now. But, I do and whatever the reasons, they are mine and I have a right to pursue and defend them without having integrity or sanity questioned.

    And, certainly without any one questioning my loyalty to the Hoosiers ‘as a real fan’ as you have done- (not just to me, but to several others who simply are putting their arguments and beliefs forward while still passionate3 about their love for IU.

    Personally, I prefer to be spared the disrespect it seems to elicit back from you. My father’s basketball has nothing to do with it (I add and subtract well I have figured out that I am about 10 years older than you are- just in case you are trying to point out how old I am (71 and still lucid and passionate), and since my old man died in a car accident in 1978, I’d prefer we left him out of this altogether. Now, if you would like to resume a respectful dialogue, I’d be more than happy to do so, but please have it clear that I feel my right to ownership of my ‘opinions’, ‘speculation’ and ‘conjecture’.

    Have a good Hoosier evening.

  69. 14 Aug Tom Crean Tom Crean ‏@TomCrean

    “We have to teach what our kids can do and what they can’t do. Kids will do first what’s easy and what you will tolerate.” Bob Knight

    The only one I’ve witnessed talk more about Bob Knight than Tsao and Laffy combined is Tom Crean. Bob Knight is the Hoosier nipple that Crean cannot get enough milking….I’m having a visual and it ain’t pretty.

  70. I hope RP gets his academics together whether he goes to IU or not.

    As for hoops, we’ll be fine with Mo Creek back. If not, Roth can always walk on since he has another year of eligibility left.

  71. “I believe Bob Knight would not have created a melodrama…”

    Whoa. I know it’s not entirely in context but, still, it takes a bold man to even string those words together.

  72. Dustin, actually successful participation in sports is considered the second most important qualifier in selection for a Rhodes Scholarship. The rolls of the Rhodes Scholarship are dotted throughout with outstanding athletes. Someone like Zeller would be an outstanding candidate.

    Former Florida State safety Myron Rolle, for instance, accepted the Rhodes scholarship and studied at Oxford before going to the NFL. Another FSU football player, Garrett Johnson, was another. One of America’s greatest general’s, a West Point All-American Pete Dawkins was still another, USC QB Pat Haden… The Selection Committee seems to search for athletic participation since it was seen as a great virtue by Rhodes himself.

  73. Chet…that I am, a bold man. The context is actually fair, men who are secure about themselves admire much of what Knight stood for. Careful…did not say there weren’t one (or more) characteristics that I questioned (I would probably say that about my father) but in general, yes…there was much to admire and point out to my children. I see absolutely no reason to deny that.

  74. Harvard, I actually can’t wait to listen to the Cowherd clip. He is my favorite radio personality. (can’t tonight cause I’m in bed and don’t want to wake the wife).

    I am not under the impression that any program is beyond criticism or reproach. I think everyone cheats to some degree, whether the coach is aware or not. You can make the point you made in writing in post #75, but it doesn’t mean those programs are bad. They do what is perfectly fine and
    dandy within the rules. I am sure IU has played many of the same games, even during the Knight era that so many (not you) hold above reproach. It doesn’t change the fact that the programs I listed, as far as we know, have done a great job within the current rules and landscape.

    As far as Wood goes, I wish I knew the situation better. My guess is you don’t kow it that well either. You made most of my argument for me though… He was valuable as a piece to their success. Were they in an oversign situation? Was that a fact? Did they replace a younger player on the team or did things just work out? Either way, he was wanted, and necessary in Izzo’s eyes. It isnt the same as the Roth situation, but that IS the way life works, best Roth learns that lesson now…

  75. Just read DiPrimio’s Deep Throat piece.

    On Patterson’s case…Ohhh my! Lot of gnashing of teeth could have been avoided with a comment like that.(DiPrimio is one heck of a college basketball reporter and columnist. Worth following).

  76. Fair enough, Geoff. I respect your opinion…always have. We all have our moments of heated disagreement, but I still tend to believe something brought us all together here. We argue like old friends. We argue like family at the dinner table. This place has been a real blessing for me. I’ve gained a lot from all of you on Scoop. I believe we would all be more flexible in a face-to-face environment..Blogs make for hard stances that would easily be smoothed over if blended into the normalcy of friendships that evolve over beers and some laughs as much as the hard written words typed into our sacred little boxes. We need laughter and we need to not take each other quite so seriously.

    Time for Harvard to ‘take five‘ …Stay true to Indiana.

    Go Hoosiers!

  77. ^ Yeah. Especially those who suggest that “Crean” is a good substitute for “Cream” on account that our coach is so tan.

  78. Where’s Wang Wang? I need some entertainment and that fantasy roster is phenomenal

  79. Harvard, just listened to the Cowherd take. He didn’t get too specific, it was mostly just his opinion, but I am in complete agreement. While Colin didn’t mention IU along those other schools, it doesn’t mean he doesn’t think they are a part of that landscape. It may just mean that he doesn’t include IU yet on the level of those programs, so they don’t come to mind.

    I don’t put those programs up on an academic pedestal, but I certainly admire the way the basketball teams SEEM to be able to flourish while being respectable under extreme scrutiny.

    I think this Buss situation is actually a feather in IU’s cap with regard to our discussion. If we can continue on the path of success we seem to be on, have a faculty sponsorship program, and make tough decisions like this one in the best interst of both the university and the student irregardless of the basketball team, then I would think we are well on our way to being the standard for the future landscape of college bball.

  80. Tsao, I have not intended to write anything that displayed any disrespect toward you. I was just involved and committed to a vigorous debate. Obviously we disagree on this subject. But where I think you crossed the line, and the reason I pressed the debate so vigorously, was because 1) I felt you were using hyperbole, and 2) I believed several of your statements called into question Crean’s and IU’s integrity over the Roth matter. Not only did we disagree on the issue, but I found several of your statements to have crossed the line, especially when you criticize, and question the integrity of Crean and/or of IU, using nothing more the “speculation.”

    Hyperbole is harmless when no one’s integrity is being called into question or when it’s obvious that it’s being used to make a humorous point. But you obviously had strong feelings on this matter and your comments appeared as if you were allowing your emotion, or your desire to win the debate, to make statements that were not based in fact. Speculation is fine until you use it to diminish an individual’s integrity. Then it becomes a problem worthy of vigorous debate.

    We both admire and respect Roth. We’d both like to see Roth back on the floor for his fifth year. The difference is that I do not believe Crean, or anyone associated with IU, has compromised their integrity because he may no longer be a part of the team. Furthermore, I do not believe any harm has been done to Roth. No promises were broken, no rules were violated, and no real harm was done to Roth.

    That’s it from me on this subject. With all due respect, Podunker.

  81. Podunker. Thanks for your comment, I value you as a friend. We just simply disagree. I cetainly do not question Indiana’s integrity; to the contrary, I think it should be upheld to the utmost. Prior to this episode, I had few reservations about TC; now, I have some questions though I hope they’ll be resolved. One thing that does give me some pause is that Roth himself did not appear too clear on his views or what he wants in his statements to Dustin Dopirak.

    One thing does not change, I do believe (despite our ‘Nick’s’ brawl) you are one excellent person, a heck of a committed Hoosier fan, a positive contributor and I value our friendship.

  82. Ha ha Dustin. I am 15 but I play varsity soccer with a bunch of seniors. I have practice 6 days a week and don’t have much time for this blog anymore. Thanks for deleting my comment. It’s really funny you actually mentioned deleting my comment, nobody cares.

  83. My comment was disrespectful? Maybe, but go look at some other people’s comments from other posts.

    I thought we needed Ron Patterson for his defense and motor, but if he is not good academically we don’t need him. That’s what I was trying to point out. I wouldn’t even want a top 50 recruit if he didn’t care about grades. College basketball players should concentrate on academics #1, basketball #2.

  84. I’m not going to be a “regular” on the scoop anymore. I am taking 2 AP classes and 2 honors classes in high school and playing varsity soccer. I will be playing indoor soccer and travel soccer in the spring too. I’m very busy and hardly have time to eat breakfast in the morning! It was a lot of fun commenting on this blog though! Got to go to class now.

    Extreme IU Fan

  85. Reggie,
    Good luck with your school year. It’s good to know you’re in honors classes. I’m not sure what year you’re in, but hopefully one of those is an AP history course. I took that my junior year in high school, and that was the first time I began to understand how much I didn’t know.
    I’m not one bit surprised that you didn’t see the difference between what you said and what everyone else said. I won’t deny that some disrespectful things get said on here, but what you said has a damaging racial connotation. I’m not surprised you didn’t realize that because yours weren’t the sort of words you can’t use on television — like I said, you don’t know what you don’t know — but that was still over the line.
    Regardless, you will learn, young man. Keep your eyes and ears open this year, and if you return to the Scoop next summer, you’ll have a better understanding of what I’m talking about.

  86. Chet, careful one of my best friends in the world was just hired as an assistant coach for the PSU women’s soccer team.

    As Dustin can attest they are the class of the B1G.

    It’s been kinda cool getting the inside scoop before it hits the press this summer. I actually knew the Paterno statue was coming down the day before the press.

  87. Tsao, given your questions and concerns about Crean, I sincerely suggest you go to the source. Either attend a meeting where Crean is speaking, or, if that’s not possible, write him, or Glass a letter expressing your concerns about the way the Roth situation was handled.

    When someone I like/respect/admire does something that does not sit well with me, I go directly to the source of my concern and ask them honest and very direct questions. I also express my opinions in a respectful way, so they will know where I’m coming from.

    On those occasions when I confront people like this, I usually get a direct response (which I may or may not like), or I at least come away with a better understanding of the other person’s perspective. Write Crean a letter, or write Glass a letter. It would be interesting to see how they respond to the concerns you expressed in your many posts on the Roth case.

    Dustin, if you’re reading this, you may want to question Crean and/or Glass on the Roth case, or the subject (accusation) of IU’s recent habit of over-recruiting. I think that would make for a very good news story.



  90. Podunker, great…absolutely great suggestion! I will do so in terms of both, Crean and Glass (I have wondered if Glass has the authority and the disposition to monitor Crean’s (or any other IU coach) recruiting approach.

    Podunker…Dumb me for not having thought of your suggestion! It is the correct way to approach a serious question. I promise that I will report on any response I get.

    I also agree with you that a very important journalistic story here is that there is an obvious split among IU alums and fans in regards to recruitment of student athletes amongst very young prospects who may not be of age to make sound, life-changing judgments; requesting of commitments that could affect their whole lives, involve their parents and families in circumstances impacting on their parental rights and authority; and. over-extending the limits of athletic scholarships available to promise to begin with. Whenever a unified community is so divided in an issue, it is definitely worthy of thorough reporting and analysis.

    I am also somewhat concerned that it seems Indiana athletics in general and basketball in particular are quite manipulative of the information they put out; yet, the press appears somewhat intimidated to approach them with direct questions on hard (or even routine) issues. One reason there is so much speculation and controversy is the fact that there is too little information made available on a timely and factual basis.

    It seems I can find out more about the deployment of drones from the Pentagon that I can about the status of Matt Roth’s playing status and scholarship three days AFTER the deadline for deciding the issue has passed. The Athletic Office’s press and public information office/officers exists to guarantee proper public participation and scrutiny of the athletic program; it should not exist to insulate it and isolate it from those who pay for the programs through their support, especially in those areas where tx dollars are involved.

    If I recall, Dustin once wrote that the Department of Intercollegiate Athletic at IU is exempt from Public Information rules because much its income is privately donated. Maybe it’s time to look into that. I am sure that many salaries, facilities, equipment and support services administered from Fee Lane (great name) are paid with tax money. There may be federal funds as well that are not solely the product of private fund raising.

    It is also just as apparent that several areas may be impacted by federal entitlement program regulations (i.e. Title I (poverty), education entitlements, Title IX, etc.) and, therefore, may be open to open public access regulations. Glad you raised the issues Podunker…maybe it is time we, as truly the product and supporters of IU make our voices heard, our influence felt and our concerns addressed.
    Again…I appreciate your idea; it is terrific and more than sensible.

  91. Tsao,
    Indiana is not exempt from public information rules at all and I never said that. But the records on students (which includes scholarship information) is private and that’s based on federal student privacy law. So are grades records and transcripts. We have a database on the website with information on what every at Indiana employee gets paid, but we couldn’t produce a similar database on athlete scholarships. You might have read elsewhere that Penn State managed to skirt certain public records laws.(Joe Paterno’s salary wasn’t available until sometime in the last decade) But that’s not the case with Indiana.

  92. No…I agree,.. I knew that Indiana university as such is not exempt from public information access regulations. I also knew that some privacy law protect student’s information, even some employment records (didn’t Bear’s Julius Pepper just discover even student protections don’t work sometimes and end up reading his North Carolina transcript on the internet?)

    What I was referring to was some discussion regarding the limits of exemptions and the possibility that some obstacles may go too far.

  93. Tsao, I think a lot of us would love to see any response you get from your letters to Glass and/or Crean regarding the Roth matter and Crean’s recruiting practices in general. My only word of caution is to be careful in representing how divided most Hoosier fans are on the subject. I sense that of those that are even aware of the matter, most have no strong opinion, many do not think anything was done improperly (or even untoward), and a smaller percentage take exception to the way Roth’s case was handled (it would be interesting to take a true, scientific poll, with only those fans that are aware of the facts involving Roth are allowed to respond).

    Remember, the easier way to dismiss someone’s argument is if they base their it on a faulty premise or information that is not factual. My point is, I’d be careful not to try to represent that a lot of Hoosier fans are upset about Roth’s case. If that’s not understood to be a fact, then your argument gets dismissed and the letter probably does not get a response. Better to simply speak for yourself, or for the finite people you know to be in disagreement with the way Roth’s case was handled. That would make your argument more credible and therefore justify a direct response.

    The best way for all of us to get the other side of the story on the matter is if a journalist approached Crean on the record. My guess is that the editors of most of the journalism outlets would not approve the approach or the storyline because they have to get along with the people (like Crean and Glass) who run IU athletics in order to do their jobs. That’s not an attack on any journalist or any news outlet, just my hypothesis. Sports news is not necessarily handled the same way hard news is handled. Again, not a criticism, just my observations.

  94. I will be happy to report back to you either way. I promise.

    Now, Podunker, as I’ve said before…I’m 71; I’ve learned how to read and write in three languages (English, Spanish, French), conversant in Italian and Portuguese; graduated near the top of my class at Indiana U. where I won several prestigious honors and awards; attended graduate school at Yale U.; had a long and good career as a journalist including editorships; served 10 years as an executive of a major institution of public education (35,000 employees, including 25,000+ teachers); and …I promise, promise, promise….cross my heart and hope to die (a major promise at 71),… no fingers crossed, that I will write a good letter to Mr. Glass that will not start out with the salutation “Hey Dude!”; and will not claim that I have the support of hoards of thousands of militant Hoosiers from the Hoosier Scoop blog – including Podunker- ready to march on Bloomington, demonstrate by violating all street crossings and ignoring red lights as we march down 17th Street (cutting through the State Police Post) yelling ‘Justice for Matt!” while wearing T-shirts that read “Canonize Roth!”

    Now, about your third paragraph, I take large issue with the statement that “… the editors of most of the journalism outlets would not approve the approach or the storyline because they have to get along with the people (like Crean and Glass) who run IU athletics in order to do their jobs…”, I think there you are entirely wrong.

    Most publishers, editors, columnists and reporters worth their salt would absolutely focus on the story because it is such a controversial subject (whichever side you are on). Simply put Podunker, a good editor would assign a writer to “dig, dig deep, dig into the consequences, interview the actors; call Roth, call Crean for reaction, call Glass, call the President of the University for his view, perhaps an officer of the Faculty Council, the Faculty athletics representative…heck…, call the Big Ten commissioner, call other coaches (to report how widespread the practices are, make sure you talk to those who think it is both ethical and unethical to promise more scholarships than available or to recruit 13/14-year old children and ask them for a commitment.

    And, I would tell the reporter that since no report I’ve read has asked the kids what the word ‘commitment’ means to them, that’s a story or side-bar in itself. Same with their parents. Any editor doing his/her job would not only assign the story, they would editorialize on it.

    Truthfully, Podunker…what you suggest- not reporting because they “…they have to get along with the people (like Crean and Glass) who run ..athletics…” is exactly how the Penn State situation (the development of a culture that tolerated the avoidance/hiding of the behavior)was fed and grew into the scandal that hurt that institution so deeply. If there were questions, no one asked them; and if there were not, someone was missing some red flags because they were not doing their jobs. Though, in all justice, I do want to be totally fair and point out that it was a newspaper- The Patriot-News of Harrisburg, Pennsylvania I believe that wrote the story and brought it to the public’s attention. Good for them…they deserve a Pulitzer, just like it was the Lexington Herald-Leader that more than once picked up on violation scandals at UK and published, leading to NCAA investigations and sanctions.

    Podunker, with respect, the press is not there as a publicity arm for institutions…it is there to protect the public’s right to know even in something as relatively inconsequential (in the realm of things-i.e. the war in Afghanistan, international terrorism networks, the thousands being killed daily in Syria, the starving kids in Sudan, the thousands of bystanders killed annually in Mexico by drug cartels feeding our habits here, etc) as a game of basketball between 18-22 year olds with overactive growth glands.

    Though, I will include a disclaimer that states that “Podunker made me promise to be good” when I write to them.

  95. Tsao, having once, a very long time ago, been a journalist, I suggest you may be giving editors too much credit. I will site, in support of my suspicions, the apparent fact that there have been no in depth articles (i.e., “probing”) on the subject of “over-recruiting,” or the potential ramifications and fallout of such practices. To my knowledge, no reporter has confronted Crean or Glass and asked either to explain Crean’s apparent habit of “over-recruiting.”

    In addition, I believe one of the writers for the Bloomington Herald Times, I don’t remember exactly, posted on this very site, comments to the affect that, as writers, they have to get along with the coaches and Athletic Department personnel and were therefore, reluctant (my word, not his) to raise certain topics or press these people too aggressively. I distinctly remember that comment and, having once functioned under such limits, understood it origin.

    I know you can write, are well educated, and that you are quite capable. My comments were not intended to offend or suggest otherwise. But I do think you’re a bit naive when it comes to the symbiotic relationship between a local news outlet’s sports journalists (and/or editors) and the college coaches and other Athletic Department employees. Trust me, there are some unwritten rules in place, that if violated, would make writing stories about the college sports much more difficult. A significant amount of discretion is always in play between a college towns’ local journalists and its University officials.

  96. OK wait, hold on.
    Let’s state the obvious. I need to step my game up on this one, and I’ll admit, you guys have inspired me a little and I made my point to put my call in to Glass today, which I should’ve done before. So thanks for that.
    I took the approach from the beginning that I was going to wait and see how Crean handled this situation before I started covering it like Watergate. Every time he’s been made public this offseason, I’ve asked him about it on-the-record. It’s arguable that I should have pressed him harder — “Well, what if x happens and what if y happens”— but I saw no point in being accusatory before there was something to accuse him of. He said it would work itself out, and I was waiting to see how it did. I would have also pressed him harder if he was made publicly available at any time since the first week of June. I didn’t take this tack because I was afraid of what Crean would say or do otherwise, I took this tack because I believe it was fair. Crean was taking advantage of a rule which has been regulated to the point that it can not be abused much There is a reason the Big Ten caps oversigning at one in basketball. That’s what the conference has done to make sure coaches have some leeway but that oversigning can’t be overly abused. Crean just happened to be in a position where being oversigned by one was one too many.
    But now the story is where the story is, and I actually have something to write and go with and I will. I can promise the next time Crean is available he will have to face these questions.
    As far as symbiotic relationships between sports journalists and athletic departments, I can’t deny that there is one, but you make a slight mistake in its nature. There aren’t stories we aren’t allowed to write and we wouldn’t sign on for that sort of agreement. What we have effectively agreed to — and this wasn’t necessarily my call but it was sort of in place when I got here — is that we don’t contact athletes directly while they’re in the program without first going through media relations. The reason for this, they say, is to protect their time and privacy while they’re college students so they’re not handling all of their own media requests. I disagree with the notion that these guys are all way too busy to take my calls, but I at least respect where they’re coming from. In return, media relations agrees to work with us to make athletes more available. Sometimes I’m pleased with this arrangement. Sometimes not so much, and often, this makes it more difficult to write stories with the depth required.
    But basically, point being, this is not a story I’m afraid to do. I took an approach to it at the beginning, and perhaps I should’ve looked into it deeper, but it’s not a topic I’ve been afraid to raise with Crean, and it is one I caught hell on this blog two years ago when I wrote this story.
    But point being, whether you write your letter or not Tsao, I need to step up my game, and I will.

  97. Dustin, I really appreciate your post (#120). My respect for you, which was already high, has been elevated by your response. I am glad to hear you’re going to pursue this story with Crean or Glass. I think it will be a most revealing story. I look forward to reading it.

    By the way, I agree with IU’s policy regarding limiting/controlling the student-athletes’ exposure to the media. Someone with a lower ethical standard than yourself could really take advantage of a young student-athlete and do them damage.

    And on that subject, does the media relations department provide any coaching/training to student-athletes on how to interact with the media?

  98. They do. I’m not exactly sure what the nature of it is. I’m biased in this case, but it just seems to me like they give them the Crash Davis course on media training. (“Practice your cliches. Those are your friends. … And Good Lord Willing…”) This year I’m actually going to try to tally how many times Jordan Hulls says “take it one game at a time.” It appears to me that media questioning is treated as something to fear. While I agree that dealing with it requires the respect of the power of the publicly uttered phrase, I don’t think any of them are taught ways to have fun with it and use it to their advantage, not necessarily for the purpose of getting attention or building a brand, but of figuring out what it’s like to build a media rapport that might help them later in life, if they become coaches, for instance.

  99. Dustin, I think you’re right. They often seem wooden and fearful when doing interviews on camera, and they’re boring as heck. But you also have to admit that their are some real scumbags out there that would victimize a young student-athlete in an instant just to get a story.

    While I love the selection and variety of media outlets these days, but having so many more people out there competing for a story leads some of those journalists to become too aggressive and or do things that can do damage.

  100. This is true. I guess I simply presume there has to be a more sophisticated means of media training. Instead of just saying “don’t give them anything,” there’s ways of coaching kids so that they can be interesting but still not get in trouble. The media can actually be easily manipulated by players who are engaging. A lot of us are simple creatures. Most of the time, all we’re really looking for is quotes we can use. When players give us that consistently, we’re probably softer on them than we should be, and I’m surprised no one’s figured this out yet.

  101. Podunker, I appreciate your comments and your acknowledgment of my annoyance. I consider you a gentleman and a friendam proud we have IU as a point in common.

    You do have a way with words; ergo “…having once, a very long time ago, been a journalist, I suggest you may be giving editors too much credit.” I pulled out my ID just to check and was relieved to confirm I am 71 not 143.

    And, it seems to me you are agreeing with my point. No articles that I’ve read have dealt in any depth with the issue of recruiting ‘children’, over-committing scholarships, demanding ‘commitments’ that have no legal standing for either the institution nor the prospect, intruding with parental authority. And, I also believe I made it particularly clear that I believe the relationship between professional coach and professional journalist is saturated with conflicts-of-interest that make it very hard for the journalist to do his/her job.

    There is nothing ‘naive’ about how I view the relationship. I am very skeptical about issues such as the extent to which Media Relations (everywhere) attempts to control access to, insulate and spin the athletes and coaches and their experiences (I don’t for a second believe the motivation is to protect study time). It is what it is, institutions devote huge amounts of budget to spinning and creating their optic of reality.It is so with the Federal government, state government, municipalities, boards of education and yes…Indiana University.

    Anyway…recruiting is a subject that needs intense review. I believe that the experience brought about by the revelations of a closed and controlled environment at Penn State were not only true to that particular institution but are equally true everywhere, probably to include my beloved alma matter Indiana University.

    I do believe that the media does need to push the envelope with IU athletics and insure that transparency guarantees the integrity of the program for student-athletes, their families, IU fans and graduates and the tax payers who foot most the bill.

    If nothing else, our public dialogue has resulted in laying open some areas that need to be looked at closely by everyone concerned.

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