DE Madison Norris enters transfer portal

Rising redshirt sophomore defensive end Madison Norris announced that he will enter the NCAA transfer portal on Monday and likely end his Indiana University football career.

The 6-foot-5, 217-pound Hamilton Southeastern graduate appeared in two games during his stay at IU. He redshirted in 2018 after making just one appearance against Maryland, then only saw action against Eastern Illinois in 2019 as a redshirt freshman. Norris was also the scout team player of the week prior to the Michigan game.

Norris was a standout performer on the football field and on the track in high school, winning the 2018 Indiana state title in the 110-meter hurdles. He was also a two-time Indiana Football Coaches Association All-State selection and three-star recruit who was ranked as the No. 34 weak-side defensive end by Rivals, choosing IU over Purdue, Missouri and Tennessee, among other offers.

However, that talent never quite translated to time on the field for the Hoosiers, who have been building depth on the defensive line over the past two recruiting classes with a pair of defensive ends already committed for 2021 in Elkhart Central’s Rodney McGraw and Valparaiso’s Cooper Jones. In addition, defensive line coach Mark Hagen, who recruited Norris, departed for Texas in the offseason.

131 comments

  1. He had the height and the straight-ahead speed, it’s too bad he struggled to gain the weight necessary to play DE in the Big Ten. Plus, he lost the coach who recruited him to IU. But the question is, will he get any more playing time if he transfers to any other Power-five conference school? I think I just read last week that we have a new DE commit who is 6’5″ and already weighs 240 lbs. in HS! Norris just doesn’t seem to have the right body type for the position he wants to play, at least not in the Big Ten Conference.

  2. Where’s all the millions in strength and conditioning going if we can’t fatten up a defensive end in two years? Hell, he was barely active on the field. You can’t get weight on a kid who’s primarily idle?
    Are the coaching salaries cutting into the food budget?

    There is another ‘fast’ answer to why we can’t fatten up a defensive end (because I do notice a lot of scripture quotes from Allen)…

    Nothing in the Bible absolutely requires us to fast. However, when Jesus discusses fasting in Matthew 6, He clearly assumes we have a discipline of fasting as part of our spirituality. He does not say, “If you should happen to choose the option of fasting,” He says, “When you fast”:

    We could also get into a debate about gluttony …..and how it is completely counter to Christian principles. Is football teaching young men to be gluttonous?

  3. How many major league skinny ex football players have you ever seen…unless from the hurryin football Hoosiers?

    1. Not many….Most ex-NFL and ex-c0llege linemen continue to grow into bloated brontosauruses. When the workouts and games stop, the eating habits and metabolic forces remain very rigid things.

      I always thought there should be a higher fuel tax on gas guzzling and behemoth vehicles which use more resources and will eventually damage the planet more.
      And if a sport promotes behemoth humans, then they should stomach the burden of the added healthcare costs as well.

  4. And then there’s the argument that when the eating habits continue, they are influenced upon children in the family of the ex-NFL/College behemoths….Mass consumption of ‘bad foods’ and prepared foods…and too much food can become a learned behavior in other family members. All those habits soon lead to diabetes, heart disease, high blood pressure and a myriad of other health related issues tied to obesity.
    Should the NFL and colleges start paying for all these health related problems (as it extends into extended families) or should it be on the backs of taxpayers or subsidized by an already strained American healthcare system? And if we’re are going to start paying college players their marketed worth and change the terms of ‘amateur’ status toward a “share the profits” status, then, I would assume, colleges/conferences/NCAA should start sharing the long term health consequences/costs that come along with obesity and traumatic brain injuries (chronic traumatic encephalopathy / CTE ) …?
    Should a sport promote habits which are so counter-intuitive to long term health? And who should pay for the hospitalizations, surgeries, pain and blood pressure medications, etc. surrounding the traumatic brain injuries and obesity issues directly related to the building of 350 – 400 lb. piles of flesh upon skeletal frames and organs not cut out for such demands throughout a life span?
    Football ends…but the “weight” of the healthcare costs upon society do not.

  5. If they want to live a longer and healthier life, the smart and fortunate ex-NFL players lose a lot of their football weight after they retire. I saw a recent photo of Gronkowski and he has lost a lot of lbs. since retiring. Same with the Patriots’ former middle linebacker who is now in sports media. So it may happen more than we realize. I think this generation of FB players is more educated about nutrition and their health than previous generations.

    1. I would say that’s the minority…..It’s pretty well documented that obesity and traumatic brain injury (along with the repercussions which likely increase with size and force added to the game) are beyond mushrooming issues for ex-NFL players.

      If you want to promote the sort of calorie intake to get someone to your desired utopia of a behemoth football player, then you best be willing to accept the burden of the future cost to society. The NFL and colleges love to bask in the profits….It’s time they start basking in the costs (as in the health damage and and long term health consequences) that come along with their “ideals.” It doesn’t take long to spend millions in a hospital….or in multiple treatments …or in multiple pharmaceuticals used until the bitter end of a pain-ridden life.

  6. In high school, players and coaches recognize the strategic benefit of hulking linemen, and the pressure to bulk up for the position has led to what some would call an “obesity epidemic” in youth football. A study of 3,600 high school linemen in Iowa, for example, found that 45 percent were overweight and 9 percent were severely obese. That is 36 percent higher than the state average for male adolescents.

    These aspiring athletes may be mirroring the trends they see in their role models. A 2005 study across the NFL, for example, showed that nearly 100 percent of players were overweight, and almost 60 percent of those were obese. What is worse, a quarter of all players fell into a special category called “class 2 obesity” (meaning they’re just below the threshold of “morbid obesity”). (courtesy: Harvard Political Review)

  7. He just wasn’t good enough or big enough to get on the field and they have better guys coming in nothing more no need to blame the coach or the strength and conditioning guy.smh

  8. Elvis was good at smh….Back then it was known as ‘shaking my hips.’

    Poor Elvis…He also got bigger….and bigger. Vicious cycle. Pain killers (much like ex-football players…) leading to a myriad of other health problems (including obesity)….leading to less smh (shaking my hips).

  9. Not too many guys who are state champions in the 110 meter high hurdles can effectively play DE in the Big Ten. Maybe he should have been a wide receiver or a tight end?

  10. I always wondered if Norris could gain enough weight with his slight frame. Talk of him playing a different position may not have been viable as I found with very fast track stars didn’t have the hand eye coordination to be receivers or the moves to play other positions on the field. I told my coaches that we needed football players that ran track not track athletes that tried to play football – they didn’t work out very well in most cases.

    Losing Norris isn’t a big loss for football talent and does open up a scholarship for another recruit. I hope Norris finds a school and football program to excel in and find his dream.

    1. Ever hear of Willie Gault…?

      Somehow I suspect we’ll be hearing about this kid. He’ll probably be picked up by Michigan and get moved to wide receiver. Speed is hard to keep off any roster….If he truly has lights out speed (although hurdles is still sort of a different animal than full-out sprint speed), one would have thought he could have been reinvented to bring a perfect complement to Penix’s big arm. Put it out there …and let your receivers run it down.

      And he looks like such a nice kid in the photo , too. Too bad.

      1. Track and field

        Gault qualified for the 1980 U.S. Olympic team and would have participated in the 1980 Summer Olympics in Moscow had the United States not boycotted the event. He was one of 461 athletes to receive a Congressional Gold Medal. Gault set a record in the 110-meter high hurdles at the SEC track and field championships in May 1981. At the 1982 SEC championships, he again set the 110-meter high hurdles record, and won the Commissioner’s Trophy for the highest overall score. He won the 60-yard hurdles event at the 1983 SEC indoor championships with a time of 7:05. At the 1983 NCAA Indoor Track and Field Championships, Gault won the 60-yard high hurdles and the 60-yard dash with times of 6.98 and 6.18, respectively. At the 1983 NCAA outdoor championships, Gault placed third behind Roger Kingdom and Reggie Towns in the 110-meter high hurdles.

        Gault was part of a world record-setting 4 × 100 meter relay team (1. Emmit King, 2. Willie Gault, 3. Calvin Smith, 4. Carl Lewis) at the 1983 World Championships. He also competed in the 110 meter hurdles and attended the Liberty Bell Classic, where he won a bronze medal in the 100 meter race). He made the 1988 Winter Olympics bobsledding team as an alternate. His personal bests are 13.26 seconds in the 110 meter hurdles and 10.10 seconds in the 100 meters (courtesy: Wikipedia).

        1. Or Renaldo Nehemiah or Bob Hayes or Michael Carter or Ollie Matson or Lam Jones or James Jett or Eric Metcalf.

          1. Them too….Great googlin’ gargantuan goosebumps, Batman!

            …or Michael Bates (Seahawks)

            But to V13’s credit, there is also Jim “Oops” Hines. Nicknamed “Oops” because he couldn’t catch a damn thing (23 yards in 10 career NFL games).

            But how many were hurdlers? I didn’t search too much but I only noticed Nehemiah and Gault as having notable hurdles accomplishments to go along with sprinting/ relays.

            Of course, speed at the receiving position is pretty nullified if you don’t have a qb with a cannon. If Penix was unavailable, what good was deep threat speed? So maybe we should be careful in assuming this young man in the transfer portal is simply not good enough …to find the field. He wouldn’t have done us much good to be transformed to the offensive side of the ball with a qb who tosses wounded seagulls (Northwestern reference…Lake Michigan).

          2. Eddie Kennison (upon further research) got my attention as well…A very notable NFL career. Not an Olympian but very successful in track at LSU.

            College career

            Kennison was a noted sprinter in college, where he was a six-time All-America selection. He led the LSU Tigers track and field 4×100-meter relay team to the 1994 NCAA Outdoor Championship, and also qualified for the NCAA Championships in the 4×100, 4×200, 4×400 and the 200 meters during his time at LSU (courtesy: Wikipedia).

        2. You mean HOFer Willie Gault….oh wait…wasn’t really in the league long enough to accumulate those type of numbers. Nehemiah was a good side show, but really only played 3 years in the NFL. Now if you want to throw out someone like Tyreek Hill a speedster who was a football player first and track as a side hustle in college, that makes more sense.

  11. I don’t blame Norris or any other player for making a transfer if that’s what each thinks is best.

  12. There is only one little question I can think of in all this talk about why wasn’t there an attempt to convert Norris to a receiver. Can he catch a football?

  13. Good question, think….But isn’t it a question we could ask of most our receiving crew (especially as it pertains to deep throws)? Without Penix (which has been the majority of the last two seasons), I thought we were known as the Indiana Dunk & Dinks?
    Let’s not overdinkthis. Aren’t most our receivers rather untested at the deep threat game?

    Time will tell…if we even develop an aspect of our offense where the deep threat has to even be respected. It really all hinges on Penix. It’s not our receivers hands in question….The ball must first come out of the hand of a quarterback who can throw something longer than the width of a huddle practicing social distancing.
    This kid couldn’t be used as a deep threat in an offense…? What deep threat offense? Maybe you need a proven deep threat offense before you can even begin to expand someone’s potential and skills to work into such schemes?

    Time will tell ….concerning this young man (as it will with Ramsey being pegged as forever limited due to his shortcomings…or short throws). Northwestern could open up a whole new world for Peyton. He could get some of those northerly winds out of Canada behind his throws…Who knows? Northwestern could have a breakout year. Penix could still prove to be vulnerable and not hold up….god forbid. Question marks abound. Last year was a combination of soft scheduling and rather off years for some teams traditionally stronger. Was it breakthrough? I think you and I weren’t as convinced as some.
    Norris being underweight to play at defensive end means his speed has probably not tapered off….He’s not carrying around extra pounds but yet he’s big enough to be a rather imposing target for a qb who can air it out. I’ll be curious to watch his future….

  14. My guess is that while his decision to transfer may not have been encouraged or facilitated by IU’s coaching staff, they may have agreed with Norris’ decision and blessed his choice to move on. In other words, I doubt any of IU’s coaches tried to talk Norris out of that decision or suggested he attempt to play another position. Sometimes, in spite of everyone’s best efforts, the best thing for both the organization and the “employee” is for the employee to pursue a different path.

    I wish him all the best. He’ll probably end up dropping down a Division and play for a school in the FCS (a.k.a., Division 1-AA) where he won’t have to sit out a year.

  15. To put Norris’ weight into perspective, Nick Bosa, who was probably the prototype DE coming out of college a year ago as a Junior, was 6’4″ and weighed 267 lbs. And I’ll bet that the 50+ lbs. difference between these two young me is mostly all muscle.

    1. My dad was an All-State tight end in high school. He had massive hands….and massive bone structure. He had a grip that could crush a coconut. He played an entire second half of a game with a dislocated shoulder. Had offers to play at Michigan and Purdue ….Then Pearl Harbor was bombed. He enlisted in the Navy. He was around 6-1 and 190 lbs as a freshman in high school. Started varsity as a freshman. It is truly amazing how we define “big” anymore. But we should always be careful in associating mere size with other attributes or heart.

      I roomed with a Hoosier football player (tight end) at IU. He was a beast. He was 6-7 …and probably 270. My old man was approaching 55 years old when I entered college. I still would have picked my old man in scuffle with my roommate “beast.” Size and strength aren’t always on the same plane…nor is fearlessness and hunger to win.

      We sure like to dumb it all down. The kid was undersized right now. We have no idea his future or his heart…or what makes him tick. We have no idea of his drive or fearlessness.
      We have a scale. We’ve weighed him. It’s IU Football. Wilson now works at OSU. This kid could become an All-American. Let me know when guesses become reliable crystal balls…

      One thing is for certain. He didn’t become undersized between high school and arriving in Bloomington. To ask a 6-5 kid to put on 50 lbs in muscle quickly seems rather unrealistic….under any “conditioning” program. Begs the question as to why he was recruited to play defensive end in a conference where size is so imperative? What was Allen thinking?

      1. Undersized tight ends 50 lbs underweight…? Pencil-sized Penix sent out to the field to run in a touch down against steamrollers?

        Breakthrough? To what? Jenny Craig commercials? Maybe we should recruit Marie Osmond at tight end?

  16. And your guess could be very far from reality….Nobody knows. Maybe he didn’t like Allen? Maybe his accolades in high school never materialized at this level? Maybe he’s simply a late bloomer?
    The only thing known is that he has speed. You don’t win championships in hurdles without speed.
    My guess (which is also just that) is he’ll end up at a school with no less success than IU Football.

    But I also think this “ideal” of fattening up kids has long term consequences. Those health consequences, added to the increasing evidence of traumatic brain injury tied to football, become less the “guesses” and serve as a bona fide critique of those who flippantly go down the pathways of “bigger is better.” Better for winning? Probably. But better for the youth bamboozled by those motivated in greed and self-interest who have little concern over the future health of kids caught up in the machine of what is assumed best for them, their futures..and their bodies? And then to act as if …because someone couldn’t get bigger, they’re going to amount to nothing? I think that’s a very sad reflection on the game…and on certain, so-called, fans of the game.

    If he didn’t buy into exploding his body into an unnatural state of colossus bloating and beefing up’ built upon what is sold as “conditioning ? ” Not everyone buys into the “conditioning” experts (e.g. Trevor Bauer).

    Maybe he’s just too smart to be bamboozled? Maybe his size timetables are set to his own natural curve? Maybe he has the confidence to not buy into the machine of “what’s best for him” to get onto the field? And if that means dropping down a division …maybe we should say good for him rather than saying he just wasn’t good enough for Hoosier Football?

    Maybe he’s gaining more in his future and happiness (as in long term health) than we sell…or assume? The evidence against our “ideals” for the game could end up killing more kids than Covid-19. Killing the neurons in the brain because “bigger is better” remains the selling point behind the forces may not be worth the size of the rug its forever swept under.

  17. H4H, this self isolation must really be getting to you. The concerns you bring up about football are concerns but still need to be dealt with by personal decisions and responsibility. The way you eat, the weight you carry, etc are all upon the individual. Today’s football players are less fat and more in shape than in the past.

    The issue with brain damage is tougher but still football is a choice and doesn’t carry more risk than our service men and women deal with in training or in combat; our police and firemen also deal with this along with many other professions. We can always point to worse in everything but that paints a distorted picture when we do. We can’t ignore the good that sports brings to people and their lives, both athletes and fans as there are many benefits from sports. Don’t forget about the brain issues soccer brings to players but we never hear about it because the focus is on football.

  18. H4H, that raccoon could be a mascot from some schools with his dancing talent. I hope you and others are staying healthy and avoiding the corona virus. Our county just got its first three cases so it has been easy around here, other than people hoarding TP and driving up egg cost. I don’t get why those two things are so important around here but maybe they know something I don’t.

    Except for going out to eat, my daily life isn’t any different than usual. I find ways to keep interested in the world and my dog keeps me feeling good during the day. My wife’s job is considered needed, I guess she is as none of the people working for the city would get paid if she didn’t work.

    Can you imagine if this self isolation was needed and we didn’t have the internet or cell phones like when many of us were back in school what it would be like. I would say people would ignore the self isolation if we didn’t have internet and cell phones.

    1. Aww V13,
      Don’t worry about H4H too much . . . When H4H is in Jester mode it is often very beneficial. Sometimes the most effective way of illustrating absurdity is with absurdity. It doesn’t mean one necessarily agrees with what they are saying but it should prompt one to stop and “thinkaboutit.” That one’s for you H4H!

      Other than this, my recommendation is for everyone to use just a little common sense (which I know is in short supply these days) in how they conduct their daily activities. Be safe V13, we need your input. Same goes for everyone else as well.

  19. Per Fox Sports…..5 conference commissioners requesting NCAA relief from a number of requirements. FBS schools are required to have minimum of 16 varsity athletic teams. Asking for a waiver of 4 years. Also request to waive minimal football attendance requirements. ***Ohio State preparing for loss of $50 M if fans are not allowed to attend games……. Coaches at Washington State, Iowa State and Wake Forest in the process for pay cuts……Cincinnati eliminate men’s soccer.

    1. Saw this elsewhere, and this is why we need to get back running ASAP. The economic fallout from this may well be worse than the virus, not just in monetary terms. One only needs to study the impact of the Great Depression on the nation in terms of the people’s health to understand.

  20. thinkaboutit, You are right about getting back to our lives as this shutting down will be worse than the virus itself. I have tried to educate others about this but the models that are so far off have scared a lot of people and they don’t understand how shutting down our economy and lives cause many to be suicide and also causing abuse in families. We have real numbers from bad recessions and the great depression to go by. Yes, deaths from this virus are bad but we need to look at more than just the virus when deciding what to do.

  21. It’s been shown very conclusively that distancing has saved a number of lives by flattening the curve and relieving the pressure on the medical system. Had we ignored the calls for distancing, the number of deaths would’ve been exponentially higher. Hardships have been significant and even severe for many and that is regrettable, but the public health crisis that we’re in and that you have ignored is real, even as you’ve shown to be completely wrong on this. Thankfully, we’ve listened to the healthcare experts on this, and I’m hopeful we’ll continue to do so.

    1. BD,

      You might want to broaden your information sources somewhat. There is a large and growing undercurrent questioning precisely what your sources have been advocating. Problem is by refusing to expose ourselves to the virus, we have basically kicked the can down the road in hopes of finding a vaccine. Unless the human race can build up a natural immunity to this, the virus will continue to return short of a vaccine. Not saying distancing is not useful in terms of buying time to find a vaccine, but if we continue to shut down the economy, we will find there are things out there which are a whole lot worse than a pandemic.

      1. We can build that immunity (and are likely doing so in some pockets of the country), but to rush into situations of mass contact, no distancing, huge crowds…is crazy right now.
        This virus strikes like a cobra….and they have yet to understand fully how the pathogenic maps of this virus functions. Some very healthy people have had this virus attack them like nothing ever seen before.

        Some are panicking because the window is closing for football, MLB and basketball. We’ll spread this virus plenty without the stupidity of putting thousands at risk every other day of the week.

        The world has changed. Many businesses will never come back. Movie theaters, restaurants and other gathering places will function in a new world as well. Casinos? Vegas? Everything changes. Sports will be no different. It’s not all ‘end of the world’ scenario. Wasn’t it time for some of our priorities to be reexamined? Many of these activities/sports were not functioning to enrich the public or the audience. They had become abusive greed machines where profits were being hoarded and salaries were ballooning into the ludicrous. They were being segregated to allow the wealth their sky boxes and opportunities to flaunt their accumulations. The love of sport was on the decline. The love of the mirror and the dollar was becoming the only thing behind the engine.

      2. The Centers for Disease Control, the National Institutes for Health and the National Institute for Allergy and Infectious Diseases are the recognized authorities, and I’ve based my comments on those organizations and the data and modeling they have utilized.

        1. Stayed tuned BD,
          All those organizations are going to face some hard questions after the dust settles.

    2. Guys: I hate this “shelter in place” as much as the next person.. But, here are facts—–normal flu season kills 0.01 % of the people infected in the US—-covid-19 so far has killed 5.0 % of the infected—-that is a 50 to 1 ratio compared to the flu————-globally, it has killed 7.8% of the infected—-As of today, less than 1% of the US population has been tested for covid-19

      Yes, we need to open up the economy ASAP—but no one knows how to do it without killing 16, 500,000 people (5.0% of the uninfected 329,000,000 people in the US)—–Without millions of testing results to guide us, we will moving ahead blindly and hoping for the best.
      Being intubated for a ventilator is bad news–only 20% survive….

  22. Agree with the first sentences presented by BearDown. Not sure if anyone was ignoring or downplaying the dangers…other than the guy in the oval office for about a month after the Seattle outbreak.

    I think getting back to any organized/mass numbers in sports too soon is ludicrous (and this ain’t the dancin’ raccoon talking).

    There’s almost an argument in doing the opposite…of what most people want. First sports to bring back (at the college level) should be those sports which, traditionally have very few spectators (but can still be very enjoyable to watch on television without the rush/influence of huge crowds).
    Bring back collegiate track & field, volleyball, rowing, softball, tennis, golf, gymnastics and swimming. This is an opportunity for the less high-profile sports …(and sports where women have been very skilled saturated in for many years) to finally have a bargaining chip of power on their side. Hold off on football and basketball….Football and basketball can’t function without fans. The crowds and aura of packed stadiums is what defines those sports. Our hunger will only increase. Absence makes the heart grow fonder…for, both, fan and athlete. It may end up being a year without football…(or very limited football). We’ll survive
    Partnership with ESPN and other networks to televise the sports rarely given the limelight. It sure beats the hell out watching Chris Paul play a game of one-on-one in the backyard of his California retreat.

    We can put health first and still allow those sports never enjoying the massive limelight to finally shine. Testing procedures and social distancing is far more practical in those sports. Olympics had to be delayed…This could be presented as a form of college Olympics (college track & field, swimming, gymnastics, rowing, etc). Personally, I would love to see it happen.

    I don’t know the financial crush….But the alternative? If we come back to the ‘major’ sports too soon and the floodgates to this pandemic open again, there may be no returning for a very, very long time. Personally, I believe football should be cancelled now (college and professional). NBA basketball should be cancelled as well. Baseball too.
    It just makes no sense to open up these sports. The fans in the stands define these sports. The risks are too high.

    We are at war….remember?

    It seems so reckless to be forcing these issues. This is not the time for a ‘spread offense.’

    Sock it to ESPN to cover the amateur sports rarely getting the stage. It could be a beautiful thing for all the Lilly Kings of the world. …and all of those sprinters, hurdlers, pole vaulters, gymnasts, etc.

    1. That balloon bursts before inflation. Without BB and FB there is no $ to make it happen. ESPN won’t bite as they’ll draw no advertising $. 2+2 isn’t fluid.

      1. True as far as it goes, HC, but what Harv is talking about is making a new market. People might indeed watch college track and tennis, etc. if nothing else is on the tube. Maybe not. But it might be worth a shot for ESPN et al. to lug all those cameras and field microphones and sideline-analyst-babes out of storage, repackage the events with full monty (flashy graphics, grudge-matches, heartwarming storylines, etc.) and see what happens instead of just folding the tent and declaring bankruptcy. Never underestimate the entertainment industry’s talent for sucking up our brains and time with the essentially unimportant.

  23. The NBA has very, very deep pocketbooks. For decades they have been dipping their hands into amateur athletics. For decades their influence has grown in manipulating college basketball with the one-and-done and draft nights taking priority and disproportionate focus.
    They have used the wonderful competition stages of March Madness and signature athletes in order to market and enrich their product above and beyond anything college athletics gets back. They better wise up real fast….The billionaires and owners better start thinking of ways to prop up the athletic departments of the universities which were once their free feeding ground.
    If college sports goes down, they’ll gone down on the Titanic with it. Nobody with give a crap about LeBron’s tweets…Loosen up your pocketbooks, Mr. Greed Machine. That bark on the money tree is tight…but the tree needs roots and water. Greed has always ‘social distanced’ …This is nothing new for those on top of the food chain. It’s time the start building some money immunity…and allow the many they’ve kept away from their hoarder riches to have a bit of touch.

  24. They should face hard questions. Everyone should. Film study on Sunday (or Monday) is always a valuable learning opportunity. I’m don’t now is the time for deep dives and that should be deferred to a post game analysis, bit that’s just my opinion.

    The problem, I think, is that some observers have drawn conclusions in the middle of the game based on limited and biased information, and then presented it as highly predictive of the final outcome. They strongly suggest that running a certain play that resulted in a big gain is the play we should’ve run 30 times and, had we, we’d have gotten 30 big plays instead of just one. Never works that way in football and I don’t think it’s any more reliable in pandemics. Pandemics, like games, are fluid, and what worked early might not work later, and vice versa. But fundamental blocking and tackling, like social distancing, usually proves to lead to good results (the head of the CDC said this today).

  25. tai I’ve observed the models built were done so to obtain the most extreme shutdown of the economy possible. Those models obviously fit concentrated metropolitan areas with large international commercialization airports. There is nothing like that near where I live and the contrast in those #’s bears that out. 20-30% of the US should have gone back to work 2 weeks ago. Good thing is we’ve now started easing into the lane to open it up incrementally soon so we don’t go so long we all freeze to death after starving in the dark.

  26. Going back to work…and opening up parts of the economy where distancing is feasible makes sense in the near future. There are rural country roads and less-traveled highways in our economy. Then there are the jammed freeways and heavily traveled bumper to bumper beaten paths of our economy. Overcrowding airports and filling large stadiums, concert halls, cruise ships, theaters, casinos soon….?
    Probably not a safe idea…until fast and vast testing is abundantly ready or a vaccine is in place and in circulation. The risks are simply too high.

    We know very little …This could be a test run. Hope we are far better prepared in the future.

    1. H4H,
      I understand the risks may be high but have you considered how high the risk may be in a total economic collapse this time?

  27. I think I’ll put my trust in what the frontline healthcare workers/nurses/doctors are saying. They have been in the war zone. I can’t even begin to imagine …nor do I want to.
    If we risk too much, we may just strain those fantastic people to the breaking point. We should know when we’re ready. We owe to those who have put themselves at the utmost risk and have worked until near collapse.
    Maybe that won’t be more than a couple months. I have no clue.

    Wonderful to hear how Drew Brees gave 5 million to help those in dire need. Never much of a fan of the Saints going back to ‘Bountygate’….but he now gets my vote as someone with some good in his heart.

    My father always used to say, “you can’t take it with you” (meaning possessions and money to the grave). So much of this country’s wealth is held by so few….Even in one of the worst health crisis facing the world, …our economy and our people, most still want to ‘take it with him.’ They simply don’t realize just how vital the ‘forgotten class’ is….They never will.

    The pandemic has brought to the forefront just how near to dire straights the overwhelming numbers of our population is in. We were told it was a fabulous economy. What has been brought to the forefront is the charades of stock markets and the concentrated wealth of the country most are removed. Most of America can barely sustain one month without their basic sustenance endangered.

    Deaths and suffering and still so very few address the inequities…or care…or want to correct them by waking up now. We think we’re on our knees because of this pandemic? Wake up.

  28. Envy turns to misery.
    Healthcare experts are only interested in 1 thing, conquering the decease, as they should. They’re not concerned and don’t understand the other side of the shutdown. We are as close to losing our way of life as anytime in nearly 100 years. We also have to listen seriously to people who know how to keep that from happening. Both need to accomplish their tasks. I’ve got 2 ears to listen to both.

  29. The problem is, like most thing today, we don’t have enough real information because the people collecting the information distort the findings IE counting all deaths from serious health issues as CV deaths. Without accurate info then we are only dealing with people’s beliefs based on their background. I am frustrated that we put up numbers without understanding they are really just estimates. H4H, I greatly respect medical people in ER and ICUs but they are also anticipating what will happen based on flawed models that have failed so far.

    Science has moved from an area pursuing facts to an area influence by what results are wanted and that isn’t science any more. I not saying all science is this way but definitely science presented to the public is.

    One thing I hope comes out of this after looking back at everything, people will get an accurate picture of what has happened. I understand my outlook is biased based on my experiences in life. I keep looking at as many different bits of info I can to form my opinions finding out the CDC is using a liberal [lying about CV deaths in other words] assessment of how many die from CV. Seeing NY account for home deaths as being from CV when most are from other health issues.

    One thing seems clear, the virus hits urban areas harder than rural areas. The conclusion we may need to draw once this is over, is to quit putting our financial, banking, industries, etc in centralized areas but instead disperse them to avoid catastrophic impacts from disasters.

    Just as Monday morning QBs know just the right play calls to make to win football games, many think there was a better and quicker way to deal with this virus. Hindsight is perfect but not realistic about conditions and info at the time needed for decisions.

    Talk of so much changing due to this virus is not realistic in my mind. People resist real changes and will try to return to what they know. Are there enough structural changes to keep people from returning to the life they remember, I doubt it.

    Stay safe everyone, all we can do is speculate based on our perspective while waiting to see how this turns out.

    1. I’m curious what you think the better, quicker way to deal with this virus should have been? What would have been the results of your better quicker way? On health and commerce? And on what data would you base your conclusions? Thanks.

    2. V13 stick to football! Your comments are false as to facts. No responsible medical article, report, paper, etc. supports your wild assertion that most home deaths in NY, now attributed to COVID 19, were due to other medical conditions. But the US has no testing in homes. However, pneumonia death at home is recognized as likely due to COVID 19 in most circumstances. It is science not politics!

      1. Beatpurdue, I get my from a variety of sources not one place or point of view. I was a scientist or working on becoming a professor in science before I changed to teaching and coaching. It is easy to check just look at the numbers of deaths at home in NYC before the virus and after. I am not saying most of those deaths are from other reasons but that other reasons accounted for many home deaths before this virus. You seem to go by the same news sources that cherry pick reports that agree with what you think.

        My point about speculation is just this very thing. You don’t know as I don’t know for sure but I see enough abnormalities to wonder what is correct. One think I do know, projections that said millions would die aren’t coming true.

        Beardown, I have no suggestions of what could have been done earlier, I just pointed out their are writers and pundits out there that say they know what should have been done earlier. I think it is crap just like any Monday morning quarterbacking.

        1. V13,
          It is very obvious, by their comments, that a great number of people only get their information from a single point of view. This is true not only of this crisis but of the general posts we see on something more pleasant, sports. However, I don’t think many realize that even our own CDC and other agencies have admitted publicly, and I have seen these admissions, that many deaths ARE being counted as COVID-19 simply because of a positive test result. Didn’t matter whether they were already terminal from another disease or not, nor did it matter how close to death they already were.

          Here’s another little factoid by simply doing the math. With 21 million new jobless claims and at this present time 31k in deaths, we have now lost 675 jobs for every death. Anyone who doesn’t think an economic collapse would infinitely more damaging to the actually physical health of the citizenry of this nation, really has not studied the history of prior economic collapses.

          1. Here’s another little factor everyone might want to consider. There is a connection between unemployment and death. So the question is for each one of those current 675 unemployed per COVID-19 death, how many of those will die as a result of becoming unemployed? Do a little research, there are studies out there on the correlation between unemployment and death, and the numbers are shocking.

          2. And another “factoid”….Those jobless claims are also wrought with deception, lack of balance, limited perspective and, potential, agenda.

            Most jobless claims aren’t even reported in this economy (long before Covid-19). Most who are jobless are not candidates (millions of the unreported as well) for immediate return to work status. The ‘forgotten classes’ are forever a strain on mental health and our economy.
            Many of the current jobless numbers and projections could also be defined as scare tactics…although a vast majority of those jobs will be immediately restored once this aggressive virus is held at bay.
            The inequities will also return…along with the millions who gave up are not counted as jobless in the “robust” economy that was.

            The king has said so much…The economy will bounce right back. “I think it will even come back stronger.” Listen to the king. It’s going to like a dam busting open….Not only will we restore all those temporarily out of work, but we’ll have such a surge to get back to business, we’ll be hiring like no other time in history.
            Don’t be so bleak about these temporary jobless numbers. Positives: People are actually missing work. Kids are learning they actually have parents and grandparents (because this country was previously so behind the curve when it comes to paid “family time” and thinking in terms of higher production time at work doesn’t necessarily mean more hours worked).
            Plenty of Negatives (mostly for the billionaires club)…Country is finally having to substitute dollars for working class instead of tax breaks for those who always placed their billions in overseas tax shelters (a.k.a. “wealth distancing”).

          3. There is a connection between unemployment and death

            Very true…And it’s been happening in inner cities…and meth/opioid infested forgotten towns for decades. It took this (because stock markets are tumbling) to finally bring out that obvious conclusion.

            Many positives…if (big ‘if’) we finally address the ‘deep state’ of hardship and dysfunction in this economy that has always been present. But will we…? Will we start paying people a fair wage so they can live beyond 4 weeks when hard times hit? Will we start allowing families to be families again? Will we finally begin to make big business accountable for their fair share…? Or will these stimulus checks just be put right back onto the taxation backs of the single parent working 3 jobs while making less than $20,000/year while big money remains protected by overseas tax loopholes and bankruptcy protections?

    3. The conclusion we may need to draw once this is over, is to quit putting our financial, banking, industries, etc in centralized areas but instead disperse them to avoid catastrophic impacts from disasters.

      Maybe we should disperse our poor, our homeless, our crime-ridden frightened…to rural areas as well? Why stop with financial institutions? Give them land to supplement the medicare and stimulus checks?…Encourage all to become organic farmers and software engineers. Call it the ‘Inner City Poverty Transference Pipeline Right-of-Way To Make America Technically Whole Again’ as is done when building pipeline for crude oil. I would suggest starting the program in Northern Indiana.
      Social distancing ain’t too complicated when your nearest neighbor is a mile away….and you can either work in the yard or from home.

  30. I’ve heard we can get immediately back to mingling in tight quarters and crowds (even 60,000 fans stadium crowds…it turns out) if you do one thing. A miraculous study originating from the comment box laboratories of the ‘National Football Bloggers institute of Immunologists Not Immunologists’ (NFBIOINI) has found they have a knack for the answer. It turns out the virus has a radical “flight” response that begins with 2 ears and a bit of trickery. The NFBIOINI discovered you simply substitute “Corona” for “Sharona” while putting this into your 2 ears …But you must make sure you do the imagined substitution. It’s also o.k. to just do it out loud. The virus hates it.
    Take a full dose of the new “Knacksharona®” drug…Repeat three times a day for 2 weeks while you break from social distancing. Increase the “Knacksharona®” dosage to 6 times a day (think touch down points) if you bring a cough to football games.

  31. This discussion has gone off the rails, and while I choose not to participate in discussions on this site that may remotely involve politics, I’ll just post the following.

    As an amateur historian, especially about WWII, I have always been amazed by the few historians who blamed FDR (or his administration) for the attack on Pearl Harbor. They either blamed him for allowing the attack to happen or suggested that he was negligent in not preventing it or not being prepared for it. And then of course, there were (and still are) those Monday Morning Quarterbacks who, after years of study, wrote articles criticizing how the U.S. prosecuted the war. “They should have done this, they could have done that, if only they would have….., etc.” It’s one thing to study and write about a very complex, stressful and unprecedented crisis, but it’s something else to develop a perspective. Doing the “shoulda, coulda, woulda” routine is real easy, but it does not help solve the problem.

    1. PO: If you haven’t already read it, I predict that you will immensely enjoy “No Simple Victory: Europe at War 1939–1945” by Norman Davies. Published sixty years after the war Davies exposes many common misconceptions about the war.

      Could the war in Europe have been considered a win for any of the Western Allies? Britain’s declared war aim was to guarantee Polish sovereignty and self-determination, and we know how that finished up (out of “deference” to the USSR, Poles were not even allowed to march in the 1945 London victory parade.) The French, British, and Dutch empires crumbled immediately afterward. The US footed the bill for the Marshall plan and still has garrisons all over Europe. Sorry, when the dust settled and the blood stopped flowing, the only victor in 1945 was the USSR.

      Interesting tidbit: At the Nuremberg trials, some of the German defendants charged with “waging aggressive war” tried to introduce evidence of Soviet collaboration with Germany, most notably the secret protocols of the Molotov – Ribbentrop deal to carve up Poland, the Baltic countries, Finland, et al., (not to mention evidence of plenty of Soviet war crimes, e.g., Katyn Forest massacres), but the evidence was blocked by none other than the USSR’s lead prosecutor A. Y. Vyshinsky. Vyshinsky certainly had a lot of experience in high-profile political trials- he was the chief prosecutor for the Moscow show trials during Stalin’s purges after Kirov’s murder in 1937-38.

      Another shocking end-note to the war. Did you know that from 15,000 – 25,000 US servicemen served out life terms and died in the gulag after the war? When the Red Army overran Germany at the end and “liberated” American and British POWs held by the Germans, these poor souls were simply shipped off to camps in the east and never repatriated. The US and UK govts. hid this for decades, even from American parents looking for their sons. Why? The US and UK (Churchill in particular) refused to repatriate Red Army men (and some civilian defectors) whom the US and UK thought useful for their political or military knowledge, or potential to be “turned” as spies. So the US and UK POWs were tit for Soviet tat.

      If you haven’t read “No Simple Victory, ” I respectfully posit that your education about WWII is incomplete.

  32. “The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first and love of soft living and the get-rich-quick theory of life.”
    ― Theodore Roosevelt

    1. I agree with the’ get rich quick disease’ eloquently pointed out by Theodore.

      Thus, I have concluded to shutdown all online sports gambling (as it is shutdown, thankfully, now, during this sports hiatus known as a pandemic).
      Such ideas of fast and easy money with no work is destroying our country and our values.
      And though it remains very affordable for the rich, it destroys the poor already poor who are just as susceptible to its ugliness, corruption and temptations.

  33. Off-topic a bit….I would be interested to hear from all the Scoopster’s wives (husbands, significant others, cohabitants, “honey buns,” etc).
    Aren’t they home while we work the blog from home? How about the kids? Do they get to watch mommy and daddy type on here while solving this pandemic? Do they ask questions? Do they call you by your screen name now? Do they watch intensely at your typing? Do they plea to go for a walk or go outside to toss a football with you?
    Does doing this blogging thing make any of you feel even more guilty during a pandemic? I don’t because I’m just a bot….but the bot has been programmed to be a bit curious of what other members of the household thinkabout the know-it-all still addicted to Scoop with zero sports happening.

  34. Pandemic Update from the College Admissions’ Desk & the NCAA:

    Welcome to Derrick Rose’s world…You can now take the SAT from home.

  35. H4H, I would remind you that even in times like this while many suffer the wealthy aren’t really impacted by this as they have the money and get-away homes to hide out in if needed. One of the results if we decentralized finance and business the poor would disperse too as they work jobs for the wealthy/well to do and eventual move to areas where jobs are. I think our country would benefit from a dispersal of our money centers. Canadian Jordan Peterson
    points out the US Army tested recruits during the draft for WWII and found 10% were so low on intelligence they couldn’t be trained. He ask, if this is true – the testing supported it, how does a society deal with that many people that can’t be productive in society. There are many social issues that still perplex us with no easy answers in a free society. Some of the issues could be answered but it would take freedom away from many to achieve those results.

    PO, one of the criticism of FDR and Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor was the USA embargo of steel and oil on Japan back in the 30’s by FDR’s administration. The thought is we pushed Japan until they had no choice to attack; I don’t buy into this but it does have some validity as to the facts. WWII was seen as a war against the fascist even though Japan still had many aspects of feudal structure in their society and belief they were racially superior.

    Hopefully we can get back to football soon but we are months away from know if we will see football this fall.

  36. V13, I could spend hours discussing the events that lead to the attack on Pearl Harbor, but this is not the time or place. But people need to remember why the U.S. imposed the embargo on Japan and what Japan had been doing to the people in many asian countries, especially China, for years before December, 1941. For a start, I recommend reading “The Rape of Nanking,” written by Iris Chang. And people need to learn why Japan’s culture was transformed from isolationism to hegemony in the decades after Commodore Perry’s fleet first arrived in Edo Bay in 1853.

    World crises are usually unprecedented to the generation that must endure them and their cause is usually very complex. Regarding the current crisis, are most Americans able to consider the connection between China resentfully signing a new trade deal just days before the coronavirus began to spread around the world? And by the way, China delayed signing the new trade agreement until language that protected China in case of a “Act of God” crisis, including a pandemic was included. Was that a coincidence?

    1. For some real eye-opening stuff on the roots to the Pacific War (as the Japanese call it), try “The Imperial Cruise” by James Bradley (how T. Roosevelt’s imperialist policies got us entangled with the Japanese in the first place- and not as enemies, but as partners for colonizing the Pacific basin). And the oil embargo was certainly decisive in Japan’s timing to launch an attack. See John Toland’s “The Rising Sun: The Decline and Fall of the Japanese Empire.” Even sitting idly at its moorings, the Imperial Navy was consuming bunker oil faster than it could be imported. The clock was ticking, quite literally, down to a becalmed fleet. What’s really interesting is that there were very strong factions in the Japanese govt. that wanted that the attack should not be to the east and south, but to the north and west. The USSR had beaten Japan in the finale’ of the late thirties border wars in Manchuko/Manchuria (courtesy General G. K. Zhukov, later Marshal Zhukov, Hero of the Soviet Union), but now, in 1941, with the Red Army hanging on for dear life against the blitzkrieg, it sure looked like the time to kick the commies when they were down (treaty obligations be damned). According to Toland it was a very close call, and had the vote been a little different, WWII would have been a lot different.

  37. PO, this isn’t the place to discuss causes of WWII although we don’t have many other topics to discuss with the shut down. The USA had a number of reasons to oppose Japan in the 30s and the “rape of Nanking” was an egregious example of Japan’s racial superiority attitude seeing anyone else as inferiors to be abused or killed. The real rulers of Japan were the military as the Japanese still accepted a warrior class from the past. The military used the Emperor as a figure head.

    One of these days I hope we can get back to football topics that matter for the coming season.

  38. All good points in both your most recent comments, V13….

    My late father (WW II U.S. Navy vet) always told me the Japanese had a very fast fleet of ships. He said they used thinner steel and had utilized scrap metal from the United States.

    I’m not sure if I totally buy into the average intelligence being low in the military. I think those were very different times….We looked at race, sex, ethnicity and “god-given” abilities through filters to support stereotypes.
    Education levels can be low and function at certain ceilings based on how well someone was taught and nurtured into loving to learn in their early years (as is the case with many athletes). But I think just about everyone has the capacity/potential to learn and to make up ground. I know a lot of those amazing stories….Sometime the biggest brains are confined to their own sorts of limitations. There can be limits in commonsense, inventiveness, creativity, empathy and many other areas society chooses not to measure…nor can it most standardized fashions. We also have to remember the inherent cultural bias used in intelligence testing which are often structured in advantages for a favored class.

    Nonetheless….When’s kickoff!?

  39. Hey, let’s discuss cooking. Any good cooks out there? I made a pretty rockin’ pulled pork yesterday. Not a lot of experience at it….and I’m sure some of you barbecue experts would never cook pulled pork in an oven.
    But it actually turned out pretty amazing….I’m always seeking advice. I’ve now done pulled pork twice within the last month (had never made it before)…Still doesn’t want to pull apart with a pair of forks…I had to get in there with my hands and tug it apart into strands. I used some really good brioche buns (not too sweet) and kept my “mop” thin and heavy on the vinegar. Kept the slaw tangy and simple to place atop the slivers and chunks of pork. Topped the pork with a few sliced pickles…Found a real nice pickle made by Vlasic that isn’t as high on the vinegar taste. Highly recommend them….They’re called Vlasic ‘Purely Pickles’ . I just sliced the the spears in thin cross-cut slices (ended up as little triangles) and distributed about 4 or 5 of those small triangles on my pork…First drizzled the pork with a bit of the leftover ‘mop’ sauce…pickles and then slaw. Toasted a lightly buttered brioche bun which I dust with a tiny bit of garlic powder under the oven boiler. Fantastic sandwich!

  40. The human being is a strange species. Human beings go to great lengths to kill or destroy themselves and one another. Human beings go to great lengths to ill and save themselves and one another.

    1. Let’s get this party started! Why couldn’t fans just wear proper attire to games ….(of course, add the latex gloves not shown)?

      1. H4H,

        I think that is what is pretty much being planned. It may have to start off slowly with significant precautions but it is not out of the realm of possibility. To begin with it may have to be for TV only with a very few in attendance and then gradually increase to what will hopefully be full attendance. As for IUFB, this shouldn’t be a problem as we are accustomed to a half full stadium anyway. Shouldn’t present a problem to spacing those in attendance to at least every other seat!

        However, eating or drinking with a mask could present a problem. I let you play off of that one!!!

        1. Southern Indiana limestone quarries now open for swimming. Quarantines for quarry teens lifted…..

          Sorry for that one.

          Sally the seashell seller has disappeared from Florida beaches….Said she’s doing seashell distancing. Further updates to follow.

          Sorry for that one, too.

          1. Wonder if we’ll ever again see ‘the wave’ at a sporting event?
            I remember my first time. I was with my college buddy, Mike Rowe….
            Of course, he was bragging because he was doing the ‘Mike Rowe Wave’ within the wave.

            Sorry for that one, too.

          2. Details are sketchy and still being ‘retrieved,’ but now there are numerous reports that Covid-19 arrived via pet store products from China.

  41. H4H, the sandwich sound delicious, my guess about the pork is it needs to cook slow and long to be able to be shredded by fork. I cook my baby back ribs in the oven rather than the grill because it is easier to control the temperature of the oven. My dry rub gives it all the flavor needed so grilling isn’t necessary. The best bbq I have ever found was in the Everglades in shanty like buildings. No matter which one I went to while stationed down there, made bbq Indiana could only dream about.

    I don’t buy into the Army’s conclusions either about intelligence level as I believe all of us have some talent to use as intelligence is different than what an intelligence test shows.

  42. Those ribs sound very delicious as well, V. I did go pretty ‘low and slow’ on the pork shoulder. I first put the oven at a high temp for about 45 minutes and then dialed down to 250 degrees for about 6 hours (this was not a huge cut). Still not sure if pork shoulder or pork butt is better…I think finding a really high quality cut is probably key as well…A lot of grocery stores just don’t offer those levels of quality.

    Ribs: I start with a little fresh minced ginger (maybe a couple teaspoons worth for 2-3 full slabs) along with plenty of minced garlic …and a blended dry rub (paprika, chili powder, coarse salt, lots of cracked pepper, little brown sugar…Sometime I use put a little leftover coffee grounds from the morning coffee). I drizzle just about everything I roast in the oven or cook on grill with a nice extra virgin olive oil as well (even steaks and hamburgers). The ribs are on a foil-lined baking sheet. I first roast the ribs on high for 20 minutes or so..and then dial down to ‘low and slow’ in the oven and pull the foil up around the ribs (sort of like wrapping with a blanket..but not too tight so a little steam can escape) …I’ll later open up the foil and click on the oven broiler to get some bubbling/caramelizing on the top. I nearly fully cook the ribs. I finish on the grill with sauce….to get some of that nice blackened/crusty/smokier flavor.

    I’ve also done a 3-step process with ribs….A fast boil, the oven(much like above)..short time on grill. They don’t dry out. But I think I’m beginning to like the oven to grill method the best. I experiment a lot…Ribs are very hard to overcook because of the fat content.

    Coleslaw is the trickiest thing for me. I wish I knew how to make a really good slaw that wasn’t too soggy. My slaw always ends up too wet as it sets.

    Anyhow…My friend across the street, ‘Sugar Cane,’ loves to get invited for ribs. Sometimes he gets a bit nervous when I say I’ll serve him a full ‘rack’….

    1. H4H, are you sure Sugar Cane is on the rib wavelength when he hears a “full rack” is coming up? You know how bad some old men are and have their minds some place else.

      You cook your shoulder long enough and slow enough to shred with a fork as the connective tissue should have broken down. Oh well the mysteries of cooking still crop up.

      Po, thinkaboutit, and Davis, imagine Hoosier football fans reading history like we do, I b et it is more prevalent than we even know.

    1. Which is good in that it gives us some common knowledge, but there’ always the drawback that when everybody’s reading the same stuff the result can be groupthink. In the meantime, SCHEDULE NOTRE DAME NOW!!!

  43. V13, I fear for the generations of Americans behind us who have not been encouraged or who simply choose not to read history. When it comes to history, ignorance is not bliss.

    What’s the old saying, “those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.”

  44. I wonder how many today could compare to the ‘Greatest Generation’…..? They never had to be asked. They simply just ‘did.’ Experiencing history rather than reacting to it?

    1. V13, I know what you mean. Our school district replaced Columbus Day with Indigenous Peoples (or was it Peoples’) Day, and my children in high school get plenty of brainwashing. But all history is “revisionist” in that history is not “past events,” but rather people reading and about past events and writing to making sense of them. And different eras value different things, so of course there are revisions. But the greatest crime of history (not the greatest crime in history) is to impose the values of the current era on past actors.

      1. Davis, yes history is written by the victors which is why I tried to always have some first person accounts when looking at historical events. There is no easy way to present history and do justice to what happened with different points of view considered. Social sciences aren’t science in my view, history and economics are my fields of study are a social science from my perspective. Social sciences study subjects that are influenced by humans and there isn’t a real science to can deal with humans other than as large group actions.

        1. But there isn’t even ‘revisionist history’ that will define this day…because it’s all FAKE NEWS!
          And the teaching that spreads with a leader who has stripped all points of view away (other than his own) becomes a virus that spreads like wildfire upon laziness ( talk about “ignorance not being bliss?”) which destroys America from its inside. No need to worry about borders. We have always held our institutions and our ‘checks and balances’ accountable, but we’ve never encountered a virus like FAKE LIBERTY BELL. And ‘FAKE LIBERTY BELL’ has no shut-off mechanism. And the decibels provided by Twitter certainly carry beyond a few blocks.
          Most harm resides in total distrust and the constant undermining of a any version of the truth. Nothing to account. Nothing to revise. It’s all fake. The ink is fake before it hits the page…The logo of a news organization is fake before it hits the camera. The reporter at a news conference is fake before their butt hits the chair. The impeachment is fake before the fake House of Representatives begins their fake vote. The courts, even the highest in the land, is fake.

          Sorry to enter politics…But if you open the door to ‘revisionist history,’ you should open your fake brain to what’s happening under your fake nose. Soon the staggering death toll and lives taken by Covid-19 will be deemed to be mostly fake. The stimulus checks may be fake as well… “Status Unknown” is my fake name when I provide a social security number to the fake IRS.

        2. “Social sciences aren’t science in my view, history and economics are my fields of study are a social science . . ..” Oh, yeah, but it’s surprising (or maybe not) how many people actually consider economics to be a science. Which is not to say the scientific methodology cannot be properly applied to history and economics, which are the study of human behavior- something rarely is dominated by reason and logic.

  45. Revisionist history? Sounds like a good segue for the 2019 “breakthrough” football season. Never forget to practice what you preach.

    1. I’m laughing, Harv, but I can’t say why! So many layers here. Depends on how the 2020 season (if there is one) turns out.

  46. V13 & davis, you both made excellent points. Revisionist history is dangerous to our culture. The people who propagate it always have an agenda.

  47. But PO, the people who wrote the history which is being revised had an agenda, too (admittedly or not). Even if the agenda was as pedestrian as writing a book that would sell well or a thesis that would earn the diploma. As many (including our own V13) have noted, history is (often) written by the victors. The key is to discern both the previous agenda and the current agenda. In in doing the discerning, you or I apply our own agendas. Essentially, history is an unending dialectic.

    I don’t deplore revisionism, I deplore the agenda of some of the revisionists. The question to be asked is, “What’s the agenda?” Revision can be used to uplift or tear down, and what I most often see is the latter in the service of establishing a utopian, or perhaps idealistic, vision of society.

  48. ^^^ Very well explained by davis. May I revise that statement?

    Every year I go to my eye appointment, I consider it ‘revisionist’ history. Damn optometrist has an agenda …I think he’s trying to frame me.

    To revisit a page in time is not the same as to revisit with your eyes. Each of us has are own experiences in life. One man’s truths becomes another man’s lies. Try to have empathy and answer the whys. Open your ears and your heart to turn the pages of history.

  49. “One man’s truths becomes another man’s lies.” Only if truth is man’s creation. It is not.

  50. It is not.

    And in such declaration to another man, do you abandon the assumption of your premise that it is not?

    1. Sorry, Harv, could you please rephrase the question? I’m not sure what you are asking me. My position is that there is truth, not created by man and independent of man, but capable of being understood by him.

      1. Not created by man…? But is the origin of your truth up for dispute? The origin of truth ultimately becomes your truth. If you are moving into the realm of gods, a supreme being, or faith, then should a man treat another man as if there is only one absolute?
        Within that absolute, do you expound and lay claim to an only truth? Or are you open to many possibilities of where there is truth not created by man?

        1. Were it “my ” truth, it would not be truth, and therefore disputable. Men may understand different parts of it, but that does not make it my truth nor your truth (nor PO’s, thinker’s or V13’s).

          1. Now you’re just dancing around the truth that’s not the truth you own…..Your belief is the origin of your truth? If you believe that origin to be absolute it becomes a statement of fact. e.g. “Only if truth is man’s creation. It is not.” A statement, “it is not,” as perpetuated as a fact becomes an ‘all knowing’ declaration you have created. If truth is not man’s creation, whose is it? Do you know? Do you claim to know? If you know, then you hold a truth beyond a world of man. Don’t bite your tongue. If truth is not man’s creation, whose is it?

  51. Judging by how far off into the weeds our comments have gotten, I’m beginning to believe there may be a great deal of truth in what those claiming we may have more deaths from the shutdown versus the virus! The mental health strain in the country is really starting to show. Starting to see a lot more data surfacing with this concern in mind, not just mental health but the general stress may exact a terrible toll.

      1. BD,

        I don’t mean to be uncooperative but I rarely give out links to data on posting boards. I have found it is far more effective for individuals to do their own research. The only hint I will give is if one is willing to ask the honest questions without a preconceived opinion on a particular matter, the information is usually accessible. In this case, just asking simple questions in a search such as, “How many will die because of the shutdown,” or “What are the ratios of death to unemployment or joblessness,” will yield a variety of information. As with any research there are many avenues of inquiry which will bring out a variety of data. May have to dig a little, as some information can be difficult to find but it is currently out there.

        1. I’ve searched and there is no data surfacing that draws the conclusions you’ve claimed it does. I’ve seen some speculation about this topic in several places, but no firm data surfacing.

          1. Try this search inquiry, “death ratios as a result of unemployment.” You’ll a mixture of articles and research with varying degrees of credibility.

          2. I think there is pretty firm data coming in of spikes in reported emergency calls to domestic violence hotlines/911/call centers.

            I think we can all agree that domestic violence is a form of mental illness? Throw unemployment and financial concerns into that terrible cocktail?
            Some are claiming the violence has always been present, but the confinement with the perpetrator is causing an increase in frequency. Some states/cities are actually now reporting some drops after initial spikes which could just mean the victims have very little free time or space to continue to report.
            Interpreting the data is up for grabs, I suppose, but there certainly has been noticeable percentage increases (along with some drops…which might not be a good thing in a short term analysis) reported.
            Domestic violence has always fed off of a certain amount of isolation and subjugation. Seems as though that power and bullying (physical and mental) would thrive on domestic “lockdowns.”

    1. Confinement is getting the jest of me….

      I mean….you’re following Hoosier Football, right. Doesn’t that already satisfy being from the neighborhood of the mentally challenged and deranged? Hoosier Football is an outbreak that’s never happened. Hoosier football is your passion? When did you start enjoying ‘victory distancing?’ And even if you do get your senses back and start experiencing a small taste of winning, you do understand you’ll still have to maintain that safe six decade distance from any major bowl, correct?

      Weeds? Sure that doesn’t describe the other side of the fifty yard line never crossed when we have the ball? It started out as grass. I think we’re the only team in the BigTen which allows cows to graze on the opponent’s side of the field during halftime. We can’t ‘beef up our team’ (notice how I finally got back to Madison Norris?) so we raise grass-fed beef instead.
      Always staying put in one place? Pandemic requirement? Hoosier football fans have that down to a science. Poke them with a prod and lead them to the promise land. Come on, there’s room in the cellar for all. Plenty of canned goods, toilet paper and nachos, too.
      Now let’s all chant together to manage the time while hair completes another dunk and dink pass from blond to gray….”Hope springs eternal…Hope springs eternal…Hope springs eternal.”

  52. And even if there are ‘transfer portals,’ have they been properly sterilized?

  53. It’s fair for any historian to reach different conclusions after examining all the facts. But many revisionists omit or ignore key facts that don’t compliment or support their narrative and in order to promote their agenda. An example: I once had a friendly debate with a nice gentleman from a southern state who referred to the Civil War and “The War of Northern Aggression.” He claimed the Civil War started as a result of the Union Army invading southern states after Lincoln was elected. I asked him, “How do you explain the attack on Ft. Sumter?” His response was laughable in arguing that the attack on Ft. Sumter never happened, that the story was invented by northern newspapers so that the people of the northern states would get riled up and demand Lincoln retaliate, etc. This was a mature, rational, educated man spewing this nonsense. It was harmless and actually a bit funny, but it was an example of how some people simply refuse to believe/accept certain facts. I asked myself, “all these years later, why would a man risk his credibility by making such ridiculous arguments in public?”

    1. I sort of think the South’s ‘War Against a Certain Skin Tone’ was an act of formal aggression. I don’t think I would have any problem conceding the North acted aggressively first if it meant ’emancipating’ those from the grips of slavery.
      I believe the pandemic has brought to the forefront a form of economic slavery that still disproportionately affects those in inner cities, service sector jobs, etc…who are often minorities trapped in a poverty cycle. There are official ends to “wars”….but we are still very far from resolving the inequities and the poverty war zones we conveniently turn our back from everyday. As I said earlier, the pandemic has only highlighted just how near so many Americans are to being destitute.

    2. PO, no joking, I must have run into the same fellow a couple of years ago. Or at least his close cousin. Sometimes such silliness is required for membership in certain clubs. Sometimes such silliness can have life-or-death implications. The first time No. Korean dictator Kim Jong-un played golf, he shot 38 under (including five aces) for a score of 34. And promptly gave up the game because it was not challenging enough. Of course, no one actually believes this. But for anyone to actually say that he doesn’t buy it would reveal himself to be not a true believer. Hence unreliable. Subversive, even.

      As for revisionism, we are probably arguing semantics. In one of its magazine issues, the American Historical Assn. wrote that “Revision is the lifeblood of historical scholarship. History is a continuing dialogue between the present and the past. Interpretations of the past are subject to change in response to new evidence, new questions asked of the evidence, new perspectives gained by the passage of time.” I do agree with you that people often “omit or ignore key facts that don’t compliment or support their narrative and in order to promote their agenda.” But these people aren’t practicing history, they’re doing something else. Usually politics.

  54. But enough about that stuff, and back to football. I read that Jason Springs is getting another shot in the NFL. The Bears just signed him to a one-year deal. Good for him and good for the Bears. I hope he’s healthy again and that it works out for Spriggs in Chicago. He was always one of my favorite IU players.

    It’s strange that Spriggs never really made it in Green Bay. There were those injuries, but I just don’t think he ever fit in the culture of that team. I hope his “second chance” with the Bears leads to him becoming a highly paid free agent and an extended career.

    1. Bears biggest question mark is Mitch Toorisky….
      Glad we got a decent backup now. Many are predicting Foles will soon be the starter. When are the Bears going to learn to not pick quarterbacks from basketball states (Trubisky, Cutler, Grossman)?
      Another big blunder by the Bears (and there’s been many over the last couple decades) was not keeping Jordan Howard.

      Really hope Trubisky can live up to the billing, but he’s looking more and more like a bust. One thing Chicago has proven is that having a quality college career as a qb (even with traditionally strong college teams) has nothing to do with success in the NFL. The last three major qb picks/trades landed by the Bears play more like they’re Maidens of the Midway….

      1. Yeah, about halfway through the season more than one sportswriter/blabber in Chgo. questioned the smarts of a Bears staff which thought that Jordan Howard was the problem with the Bears running game.

  55. Thanks for the info on Spriggs and I hope the move improves his health and his play fits in with Chicago Bears offense. It is good to see Feeney doing well with the Chargers and Sudfeld getting attention from other NFL teams. I see our receivers Cody and Simmie are with the Redskins now with Martin. I also see Howard with the Dolphins and Saffold with TN has worked well for him. Thomas has done well his first two years although I hope he gets more receptions in this next season. Coleman had a good season going but injury interrupted it this past season but he did play for a Super Bowl team this year. I know I am missing some others so add any you think of to this list.

  56. Think, that search doesn’t produce any data surfacing in relation to the current Covid19 crisis. Would be grateful if you could post the specific links you’ve referenced that relate to this crisis. Thanks.

    1. BD,
      I doubt we are going to have serious economic mortality data from the current crisis for quite some time. There is enough trouble right now just getting the correct data on the COVID-19 mortality rates themselves. What we do have are studies of past economic downturns and the mortality rates in those instances. This is the basis for the concern that the mortality rates as a result of an extended shutdown may exceed those of the actual virus itself.

      In the food for thought category, the real unknown is what happens when you couple the known results of economic downturns with the isolation of stay in place orders.

  57. I wish Norris nothing but the best moving forward. With the way the IU’s roster is constructed, IU needed some attrition. Coming into the 2021 recruiting cycle with only 12 scholarships available, IU really needs to balance the roster a little more IMO.

  58. Next time you’re at work (or just out and about), I suggest you adhere to the latest approved/created method to protect against Covid-19 spread.

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