1. Should have spent more time discussing Zeller, Dakich found out the more you talk about Zeller the more people listen.
    There has not been a more important recruit since Damon Bailey.
    Crean would be more of a candidate for the hotseat than for COY.

  2. And in that final statement, 4guards, you show how ignorant you truly are.

    Thanks for proving the point for us. It saves everyone a lot of time.

  3. ignorant? I believe most basketball fans across the country would agree with that statement.
    IU is picked to finish around 8th place in the Big10. Who would consider Crean a candidate for Coach of the year?

  4. They said if Crean is able to get IU into the top half of the Big 10 then he could be considered a COY candidate.

  5. 4guards, you also have to remember that they are predicted 8th in what a lot of experts are calling the best conference in college basketball. It will be tough for EVERYONE, much less a team like Indiana. Michigan State, Ohio State, and (maybe formerly) Purdue could all go to the Final Four. Indiana isn’t playing in some Joe Schmo conference. This is a really, really good conference.

  6. I didn’t say if he got us in the top 5 he couldn’t be coach of the year. I said the chances are greater for him to be on the hotseat than be COY. Anybody who is not a Crean Apologist can see that.
    On a side note, I am so sick and tired of fans being happy with a top half of the conference finish. I don’t care how tough the conference is. This is IU and we shouldn’t be happy with anything outside of 1st place.

  7. 4guards,

    As much as I loved Coach Knight, even he didn’t finish in 1st place every year. Crean is starting his 3rd season in what could possibly be the best conference in the NCAA this year.

    A 4th, 5th or even 6th place finish in the Big Ten this year will show MAJOR improvement in this program from where it was after the Sampson fiasco.

    Like you, I am not sold on Crean being the savior of IU basketball, but there was improvement (although small) from his first year to his second year and I expect a bigger improvement and at least an NIT bid this year.

  8. In Bob Knight’s 29 years at IU he only finished in bottom half of the Big 10 3 times.
    Crean is going for 3 times in 3 years.

  9. Hey 4guards–remind me when Knight had to deal with a Titanic mess left behind by a previous coach that made IU hoops the equivalent of Indiana State football? I’m not saying that to state that Knight didn’t do tremendous things at IU (obviously he did)…I’m saying it to show that comparing Knight’s record to Crean’s first 2 seasons is apples to oranges.

  10. 4guards,

    While what you say is true, your original statement is we should only be satisfied with 1st place and I was pointing out that 1st place every year wasn’t even acheivable with the greatest coach in history.

    Do you not agree that at least a .500 record and at least a 5th place finish (5 times for Knight) in this years Big Ten conference would show a significant improvement over the past 2 seasons?

  11. Season Coach Overall Conference Standing Postseason

    1970–71 Lou Watson 17–7 9–5 4th

    1971–72 Bob Knight 17–8 9–5 T–3rd NIT 1st Round

    Didn’t look like much of a change from Lou’s last year to Knight’s first?

  12. Mike P,
    Yes a 5th place finish would show improvement. The problem is that we have been so bad the last 2 years , how could we not improve? A 5th place finish with Knight was a horrible year, while now we pray for it.
    Look at Watson’s previous years and off the court stuff going on in the program. That is like saying:
    2007-08 Kelvin Sampson 22-4
    2008-09 Tom Crean 6-25

  13. I don’t pray for a 5th place finish. Actually I believe anything less than 5th in the Conference from this year forward is a failure for that season.

  14. 4guards

    Returning scholarship players for RMK 8 (including Steve Downing and Joby Wright)
    Returning scholsrship players for TC – O. Please try to compare apples to apples.

  15. I can respect that Mike P.
    It was Crean’s fault we only had one returning scholarship player. Crawford would have been a good one to hang onto for example.

  16. 4guards

    I am not in a position, and I don’t beleive any of us posting here (including the HT staff) can truly judge or criticize the decision to dismiss players from the team. I have to beleive the athletic department had more information and perhaps even actionalble reasons for their decisions. I am also sure they understood how it would affect recruiting, ticket sales, etc. and made the tough decision to dismiss players anyway. Lastly, I would have to beleive the decision to dismiss was not Creans alone as he was newly hired.

  17. 4guards,

    I understand that by all accounts, Crawford is a nice kid. And I enjoyed watching him excel in the tournament with Xavier.

    But this is also a kid who complained about Ellis having to run stairs for showing up late to a team meeting, and lamented the thought of every having to do so himself.

    You can’t knock Crean’s rationale for letting him leave.

    As a devoted Knight follower, I’m actually surprised you would’ve fought to keep Crawford in Bloomington. Knight wouldn’t have put up with a kid with that attitude.

  18. Coach of the Year is voted on AFTER the season, NOT before the first game. If Coach Crean is 18-12 or better and 6th in the Big 10 or better, then he should be seriously considered for that award. If IU is 15-15 or better, then we have improved. If Indiana is 12-18 or worse then this rebuilding is not going fast enough.

  19. “It was Crean’s fault we only had one returning scholarship player. Crawford would have been a good one to hang onto for example.”

    Wow. How did Crean earn 15 “F’s” for the team’s cumulative grades before he even set foot on campus?

    When did Crean encourage players to use drugs?

    How did Crean convince Eli Holman to throw a potted plant in his office? After requesting a transfer?

    Steve Alford is not coming here. Just forget it.

  20. 4tards wants it both ways. He wants to return the day of Bob Knight discipline, a zero-tolerance policy for student athlete conduct, squeaky-clean image, etc. Yet he also wants immediate wins and for Crean to not discipline players who give the program a bad image. We all know that he contradicts himself.

    Its the same reason why he will criticize a player for behavioral issues when Crean is recruiting him, but then chastise Crean if he fails to land land him.

  21. After a failed drug test, Knight took away Jay Edwards’ scholarship and had his personal activities and classroom work closely monitored. Steve Downing was part of the Athletic Department and was key in providing Edwards the needed positive example and counseling. Knight ultimately gave Edward’s a second chance. If you wish, you can read about in the Hoosier Encyclopedia(Go to pages 107-108).
    I’m sure Knight did a lot to help kids set a straight course in life. I doubt if it was one mistake and out the door. I doubt if it was all as simple as cut and dry. And let’s not forget, Jay Edwards just happened to be Big 10 Freshman of the Year before his failed drug test. Maybe Knight had a bigger heart than most of us know, or maybe the more cynical view would be his heart was functional to the talent the problem player..Maybe not so big a fool to cut off his nose to spite his face. He, like most imperfect two-legged uprights this planet, was probably somewhere in between. If you read some of the stories about Knight and his visits to Landon Turner in the hospital(after his horrific car crash), it can do a lot to shed away the stereotypical image of a man only full of hostility and heartlessness. Even when Knight had kids with academic problems, or when you heard it was impossible for him to see eye-to-eye with a player to later transfer, I never once observed him to using a podium to make public humiliations /insinuations against their names. If the problem wasn’t fixable, they were off the team and that was the end of it. That’s the way I remember it.

    Lastly, Knight was extremely fortunate to have a kid with the character of Steve Downing(recruited by Watson) to lead one of his early Hoosier teams to a Final Four. Downing seemed to remain forever loyal to his coach. It doesn’t hurt having some things go your way without your hand involved.

    Crean is doing a fine job being Crean. If he felt all the players were less than redeemable, then he must live with that decision. I don’t think it benefits anyone to speculate if Knight, or any Crean’s mentors/idols his coaching past, would have handled it the same. Why should we care? If he’s trying to be Knight, based on the many falsehoods one of basketball’s most famous yet polarizing figures of the sport, he is more destined to fail. You can’t return a different day to live a different man’s way.

  22. Knight would have disciplined Crawford and demanded respect, making him a better player and better person.
    Just because there were many F’s and drug use doesn’t mean that every person outside of Tabor was responsible for it.
    What about DJ White quitting on his team? Talk about attitude problems. Why don’t we ever talk about him.

  23. With everyone else already gone why would Crawford want to stay anyways. He made the right decision for him. It wasn’t goinng to benefit him to stay and play for a decimated team. Look where he is now. You cant say that if it were Knight coming into that situation instead of Crean he would have convinced him to stay.

  24. Oh sure. Now Knight is the “Great Rehabilitator” that could have fathered Sampson’s team into gentlemen. I thought that Republicans didn’t believe in rehabilitation. Give me a break. The way you shift shift your agenda to make sure it is always a finger at Crean is nauseating.

    Also, DJ White was one of the noblest and hardest working Hoosiers of all time. Quitting on his team? He was the only one who cared for almost the entire season. The only one with his head on straight.

  25. Why did he start whining and skipping practice when the scumbag was fired? I lost all respect for him at that point.

  26. Who cares? Let’s concern ourselves with the present and future, that’s where we can improve, not the past which is what it is.

  27. Yes, he regurgitates success and enthusiasm. In the 2011-12 season, he will regurgitate a Final Four run, and he also will regurgitate a Dwayne Wade type talent in Maurice Creek. He may even regurgitate Elston to the NBA.

  28. “Knight would have disciplined Crawford and demanded respect, making him a better player and better person.”

    I hate to break this to you, but even Knight had players decide to quit and leave. You can look it up.

    “Just because there were many F’s and drug use doesn’t mean that every person outside of Tabor was responsible for it.”

    Well, then, who was? You keep getting more and more ridiculous.

    “What about DJ White quitting on his team? Talk about attitude problems. Why don’t we ever talk about him.”

    Kids sometimes react emotionally right away, but after reconsideration, come back. You DO know that Dane Fife decided to quit the team when Knight was fired, don’t you? And then returned after thinking about it? Neither DJ or Dane could be considered “bad people.”

  29. Knight also dismissed Tommy Baker when he failed a drug test for smoking pot. Jay had already proven himself a necessary part of the tea while Tommy was midway through his freshman year. RMK was lenient when he needed the player.

  30. 4guards,

    D.J. White played for three different coaches in his career, and endured two or three debilitating injuries in that span as well. Yet, he stuck it out, didn’t transfer, and dominated the Big Ten his senior year.

    In the infamous final Sampson year, he was perhaps the only player who didn’t let what was happening off the court affect his game on it. He is and always will be one of the most beloved Hoosiers.

    You criticizing him, of all people, sheds more light on your insistence upon negativity and pessimism than anything you’ve ever said. Period.

    I have never heard any other IU “fan” speak negatively of White. I’m honestly blown away.

    In his final game vs. Arkansas (where nearly every other player failed to show up), he shot 10-16 from the field, scoring a team-high 22 points and notching nine rebounds.

    How that qualifies as “quitting on his team” is beyond me.

    If you hate our coach, that’s fine. But your tunnel-vision and chronic negativity, regardless of the player or situation, are what repeatedly dock your credibility on this site.

  31. Crawford would never have been on IU’s team under Knight, so the “what would have happened” debate is really stupid. If by some weird occurance he did get on IU’s team under Knight, he would not have been playing because of his grades. I knew several IU BB players under Knight when I attended IU. They may not all have been Academic All-americans, but they went to class and studied. Crawford would not have even been recruited by Knight.

    I’m no big fan of Crean yet, but I’m willing to give him the benefit of doubt given the mess that he found waiting for him at IU. To compare what Knight inherited back in early 70’s to what Crean had to deal with upon his arrival is not comparable.

    Crean needs to show significant improvement. His players need to play defense, rebound, reduce turnovers and play with solid fundementals. And Crean needs to have a winning season.

    Crean’s not on any hot seat, for the simple reason that he has seven years remaining on his contract and the buyout is HUGE. But the Hoosier nation wants to see significant progress. If they don’t, Crean’s going to learn that the temperature in Bloomington can drop very quickly.

  32. By the way, I don’t think the majority of the Hoosier nation ever really appreciated the total “cost” that would be associated with the firing of Bob Knight! And I don’t think anyone ever imagined how long it would take for IU to recover after Knight’s firing. We IU fans were lulled into a false sense of security because of IU going to the finals the season after Knight was fired. But that was the calm before the storm.

    We avoided some of those Knihgt players transfering because Knight encouraged them to stay and play and discouraged them from leaving IU. But after that season we began to get an understanding of what Knight meant to IU. Love Knight or hate him, he was a great coach, an effective coach, as he proved at Texas Tech, taking that crap BB program to the Sweet 16. The way Knight was terminated was rediculous and devastating to IU’s image (not arguing whether it was warranted, just the way it was done). It was simply handled badly. Whether you sided with Knight or agreed with Brand, that debacle gave IU basketball a terrible black eye. The decision they made to keep an under-qualified assistant coach, with no previous head-coaching experience was simply stupid. They compounded the mistake by then hiring a known cheat, who never gave any indication that he shared the core values so important to IU (follow rules, graduation rates, etc) and giving him the keys to IU’s greatest treasure.

    No, you can’t blame Crean for that mess. It was made years before he arrived and it was bigger than any of us suspected at the time. The blame lies well beyond the feet of any one coach and so does the solution. That debacle belongs to Myles Brand and the PC IU administrators that followed his cowardly departure. The question is how long will it take for IU to recover and return to being competitive on the national level? I have always thought it would take a lot longer than any of us in the Hoosier nation cared to admit.

    Rome was not burned in a day.

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