Wilson talks attrition, defensive coaches look to help corners

Kevin Wilson took a question about the attrition from his program on his radio show on Monday night and provided an answer that raises some more questions.

“We do have some attrition, guys going by the wayside,” Wilson said. “But I’m kind of a stickler on you gotta go to class, you gotta go to study hall, you gotta practice hard, and we do some mandatory drug testing. Some things are happening where some guys don’t want to stay with us. I think as it goes through, we’re kind of cleaning up the house a little bit.”

The mandatory drug testing is obviously the part that stands out. At last count, the Hoosiers had seen more than 15 scholarship players leave the program since the beginning of Wilson’s tenure on Dec. 7. He has provided reasons for the departures of some of them, which have included injuries and the desires of some older players to not attempt their fifth-years. He mentioned a violation of team rules at the beginning of the season as a possible reason for departures, but has never specified what players might have left for that reason. Monday’s radio show was the first time he said anything about drug testing in connection with attrition. He didn’t elaborate further on the show.

Wilson was also asked about running backs Darius Willis and Nick Turner by a caller who was not aware that Willis is petitioning to be a medical non-participant, maintaining his scholarship but ending his career and that Turner has left the program. Wilson said that after Turner initially quit the team, he went back to Wilson to say that he was considering coming back. Wilson said he was willing to have him if he wanted to return, but he said Turner hasn’t gotten back to him since.

Several of Wilson’s defensive coaches were available after Monday’s practice. Co-defensive coordinator Mike Ekeler said the staff is looking at ways of limiting the occasions when cornerbacks are left in one-on-one coverage, which has burned them severely in recent weeks, especially against Illinois star receiver A.J. Jenkins and Iowa’s top wideout Marvin McNutt.

“Our kids played hard, they really did,” Ekeler said. “We’ve gotta do a better job as coaches of putting them in better positions. We’ve gotta give our corners some more relief. We’ve gotta do better in our movements. We’re getting cut off and it hurts the structure of your defense. Just some thing schematically we can do better to help our guys. … You can play different coverages. You’ve gotta be more multiple in your coverages, rather than putting those guys out there maybe in quarters or in some sort of bracket, maybe mix in some Cover 2 when you’ve got cloud corners out there. It helps in their disguise, and that they have help over the top. Just mixing up your coverages. If you’re sitting in the same thing all the time or if you’re pressed up there and you show a safety walks down there early and they know you’re in man free.”

AUDIO: Jeff Thomas and Chase Hoobler

AUDIO: Brandon Shelby

AUDIO: Greg Heban

AUDIO: Mike Ekeler

64 comments

  1. As far as guys leaving. Bye. In regard to defensive schemes, I think the unfortunate reality is the coaches are not used to having to ‘protect’ defenders that may not be at the level of their opposition. If they can figure out a way to do that then they are really, really creative.

  2. Dustin,
    I know you adressed all these bogus spamy posts. But, what is the deal. Are they being adressed ? Are we going to have to deal with them through Bball season. Has the H-T hired a person to remedy the problem. Thanks for your time.

  3. To the extent players left or were counseled out of the program for substance related issues, good riddance! With all of our other challenges rebuilding this program, we certainly don’t need that one!

    As to violating other team rules and academic challenges, I say kudos to our coaching staff for laying down the law and unequivocally enforcing it. That’s their job and I for one am glas to hear they take it seriously.

    As to the defensive challenges, this is just another component that has to be built from the ground up. While from time to time we’ve had credible defensive performers, as a unit this group has historically under performed due to a general lack of talent. We’ll get better.

  4. Mass.Hoosier,
    I’m not sure where the hiring process stands on that. Obviously, cleaning spam out of the Scoop won’t be their No. 1 job priority as the web guy had a lot of other jobs, but that was at least part of it. For now, this is kind of on me, so I apologize for not getting to it faster. But I’m hopeful we’ll have someone on that soon.
    iufan23,
    I’m going to try to get some clarification on some of that stuff. Wilson sort of floated that one out there last night without a lot of specifics. I’m not sure how many of the defections were guys that had those problems and how many weren’t, but for now, there are some innocents that are being painted with that brush.

  5. Dustin,

    Thanks for the clarification. Strongly believe one to be innocent until proven guilty, so I certainly did not mean to make any inappropriate attributions! Just glad to hear the coaching staff is enforcing standards. I want to win, but I want to win right!

  6. Dustin, can you provide us with a list of all the players who have left the program since CW took over at IU? Thanks!

  7. I think coach Wilson is trying to cover himself regarding the loss of so many assistant coaches and players. By listing drug testing as a reason he puts the departed players under suspicion. That’s not the behavoir of a strong coach and leader. I suspect some of the remaining players have taken note of his lack of loyalty. He should not ask of his players what he is not willing to give.

  8. I have absolutely the opposite view of Coach Wilson and his communication style. He is so open and revealing it offends some people. He and his co-O coordinators have in 2&1/2 months coached a talented QB to B10 Freshman OTW in his 1st start. The young ones are loyal to him and the underachievers are falling by the wayside. We are watching things at IU FB change in real time. Hopeful more changes are on the way.

  9. Zach Osterman actually just sent me a list. There are more than 31 total players, but 14 or 15 of those were walk-ons. Significant walk-on attrition is pretty typical. Working on today’s blog which may or may not put this drug testing thing into better context.

  10. Thelman- “what he is not willing to give.” Are you talking loyalty or urine samples? I work for an organization of about 5,000 people and everyone from the absolute top boss to the bottom rung is subject to random drug testing. Testing certain classes of people in an organization, and not others, is a recipe for worse-than-lousy morale. If only the players and not the coaches are subject to testing, then KW’s attiutude towards the concept of “team” is questionable (and perhaps that’s what you mean by disloyal). But if it is random (or universal) testing of everyone in the program, then any player or coach who comes up hot on a drug test (administered openly and fairly} is the disloyal party. I hope DD can come up with some info, such as whether the testing is for all, or just players? Is testing random, or is it based on articulated indicia of substance abuse, or universal? Was the policy and its details announced beforehand, or sprung on the team as a surprise? DD, I would think that the policy (but not test results) would be available under a Freedom of Information Act request (or whatever statute is similar in Indiana).

    I do have to agree that KW’s apparently offhand remark at a press conf. tends to tar people who might have left for legit reasons, and therefore was a sloppy decision.

  11. davis,
    I don’t know about the policy. I would guess it’s actually an academic department policy and not something Wilson sprung on them on his own. I just posted today’s blog, and I’ll get the audio up there a little later.

  12. I think it may be an NCAA policy. All my kids were subject to random drug testing at 3 different universities in 3 different sports. In fact, I can’t imagine there not being an NCAA policy with all the rules regarding performance enhancing drugs. As for coaches, most anyone working as any type of educator at a state supported institution may well be subject to testing depending upon the laws of each state.
    As for communication style, I’m with HC. KW has been very open and frank in disseminating information. He didn’t throw anyone under the bus, either. He stated that kids had left for a variety of reasons ‘including’ several ones he mentioned. Would he have been more open and honest if he had said kids left the programs for reasons that he wasn’t going to divulge? THAT would have set the rumor mill all aflutter.
    BTW, you say “so many assistant coaches” have left. What was that number again? Seven, eight, ten? I don’t remember. All I can recall is two that never actually joined the staff before changing their mind.

  13. So, that’s 16 scholarship players leaving with a coaching change. I checked Alabama’s roster, as I thought you would probably find guys as committed to playing football for the Crimson Tide as anywhere in the country. Without any upheaval in the coaching staff they lost 12 scholarship players, other than graduation, in 2010 and 11 in 2011. Those were guys playing for Nick Saban on national TV every week.
    As far as Gunner going to Notre Dame, if I’m not mistaken the last 5-star QB to sign with the Fighting Irish was Dayne Crist. You know, Dayne…Crist. Can’t miss…5-star.

  14. I also think that KW has been nothing but transparent, clear, direct, open and honest. For some, way too honest. His vision of what he expects was clearly stated last spring. Most players were fine with it and adapted…others, left prior to the season or, as it became clear that their inability to handle the new standards and expectations.

    I do have a question. Why does it seem to me that much of the issue centers on a view that raising standards and having clear criteria for playing in Wilson’s program creates an unnecessary and negative pressure on players?.

    I’ve noticed this tendency, especially among pundits, since well before the season began, going back to spring football when Wilson were first announced and the criteria leading to more or less playing time was made very clear. It’s been just as clear that stating the standards and holding players accountable to it creates some great discomfort among some, including among some of the pundits. It does honestly seem to me that there’s a philosophical difference with Wilson’s criteria that is being applied to the examination of the changes he has installed.

    That is unfair from every aspect, whether a fan or a professional evaluating his success or failure. First, Wilson has every right to apply his…he’s the coach hired to be in charge of the program for the next 7 years (I believe that’s right). It (the program) can only be evaluated for its coherence with those standards and within the period mentioned, its outcome.

    If commentary is going to be critical according to a different set of values and standards, then those who differ have a responsibility (in some cases professional) to make their alternate set of values and standards clear so we are aware of the philosophical conflict between the coach and the person criticizing him.

    One could argue that stating them in a blog does not require the same distinction (as in a news story and column) and they would be right; but I am talking about the very same story that appeared in today’s HT site.

    Because the conflict of values is not made apparent, without knowing it we debate whether tolerance one should have for drug use in a college team environment is a matter of personal choice or a matter to be decided by the individual responsible and accountable, Wilson.

    I’ve asked this question before. I’ve made this same comment 4-5 times in similar and in different circumstances. But, what it has never done is provide me with an answer.

    I completely agree with Kevin Wilson’s vision, his approach, his installation of a system of interacting expectations and standards of behavior and how he has implemented it and handled those who try to meet his expectations, those who attempt to comply but fail to perform; and those who simply refuse to live under the new culture for IU football.

    I also believe that if there is an unstated prejudice against the values represented in Wilson, the criteria used to hold individuals in the program accountable, it needs to be said upfront so that commentary through that filter is understood and evaluation of Wilson’s football team is fair and balanced.

    As it is, the best we can do is to waste our energy in a screaming contest that makes no sense other than to establish ‘I like’ or ‘I hate’ as conclusions without finishing the sentence.

  15. Davis’ is a great observation. His analysis of what successful institutions stand on, clear and coherent values and standards, is not only true to his example and to IU but the core issue of why some of our institutions are in crisis, why achieving success is becoming more challenging as values become less coherent and standards less clear.

    My passion for sports (and IU sports in particular)is directly tied to my preoccupation (I’ll even accept fixation) is completely related to that concern. If we can not define and agree on these when it comes to a game, how can we ever begin to think we can arrive together at an agreeable consensus as a society?

    Davis’ point is both brilliant and important if we are to survive at any level.

  16. Dustin…what are you unclear about? The source of the policy on drugs, drugs testing (NCAA, Big Ten, IU, Athletic Dept, football team, Coach Wilson), the drug policy itself (usage, time, consequences,definition of drugs). It really would help if we actually knew what we were talking about.

    Are we cool with that?

  17. Tsao,
    I am actually unclear about much of the policy. It was my understanding — and I could be wrong — that mandatory drug testing is not just the policy of the football program but was the existing policy of the athletic department in general. That Wilson adheres to the policy is not something that surprises me, nor does it surprise anybody. davis asked for some specifics about whether or not coaches and athletic department staff are subject to the same tests. I don’t know about that.
    What I was asking about today was whether Wilson’s comment on his radio show Monday night was made to suggest that there had been violations of the mandatory drug testing policy and if those violations had led to attrition.

  18. Dustin…no, not just at you. There is a ‘prejudice’ (as in prejudgment, or predisposition or prior value judgment) in many of the postings in this blog, many of the stories and opinions that are written here and elsewhere that show a predisposition against any old-style accountability or discipline model and clearly indicate a preference for a ‘positive reinforcement’ model that comes from generational values and a revulsion against what is often considered by some as ‘hard-a**es’ who are very demanding and hold people accountable for minor as well as major infractions that may lead to failure.

    Of course, that includes you Dustin. I’ve stated that before and questioned it before; just like you’ve made your preference for certain types of ‘coaching’ style that are more ‘encouraging’ than others in earlier writings as far back as last spring. And, I see no reason for not doing so now but it is OK. I’m not questioning “You”, I am questioning you. And, by ‘not questionin’, I do not mean questioning, (there was no question mark after my statement), I am stating that it is a position that bleeds into some of the stories both here and elsewhere sometimes.

    Since total objectivity is absolutely 100% impossible, especially in journalism (I have an opinion on absolutely everything…just ask me) where we are constantly challenged by every great and cheap idea there is; I feel the closest we can come to ever being ‘balance’ in our approach to the reader is to make our ‘biases’ and ‘prejudices’ openly, so that the reader recognizes them and is then able to lean on his/her experience in similar situation to strike their own independent view.

    I think that’s proper and legitimate, don’t you?

  19. DD- (Part II). I also think drug consumption may be part of the Indiana code…as well as the athletic department’s, the team’s and Wilson’s. I would expect that since many of the athletes are minors, knowing about trafficking, consumption or mere holding may be a major violation. And, I would think that it probably would be good to know all of the coach’s (both professional and personal responsibilities in their roles as ‘educators’ and ‘reporting’ responsibilities in that regard.

    I do know that some IU athletes have been dismissed from their teams and their scholarships terminated for apparent violations of drug laws. I don’t know who raised the question in the radio show or why (I didn’t listen to it and have not listened to the tapes- though I don’t believe the questioner’s names are mentioned anyway) but it seems to me that if it is going to be asked, that individual should have known the possible consequences of answering in any number of directions.

    I’m just a bit surprised that with all the commentary and postings we still have no idea and don’t really know what the question is. At that point it does raise the issue as to whether the question directed at Wilson was gratuitous.

  20. When I was at IU on a program that no longer had athletic department support shortly after I showed up – I had mandatory drug tests. I have no problem with that. I didn’t even drink more than a beer or two off season – and none during the season except once and coach kicked my ass. Really kicked my ass. And since coach and all of us athletes were volunteering – we even had more of a reason to complain. I have no problem with that.

    And when I coached for a 10 years after – I was a hard ass. Kids got 50 push ups for saying “can’t” or missing a turn or being late to conditioning or to a meet. Those same kids still call me coach even though I haven’t coached them since they were 13 and they are all well into their 20’s (I specialized in getting the young kids up to national standards – and I loved it). That said – I was so positive with those kids that it wasn’t funny. I was always telling them they could do things and recognized the things they did well. I also took the blame – at least 98% of it – when they failed. It was up to me to make sure they were well prepared, in shape and confident. And in gymnastics – as it turns out – if you are not 100% committed and 100% confident, you fall on your ass and it stings a little to hit the ground from 15 ft. or higher upside down or sideways and the 4 or 8 inches of matting don’t help much when you eat shit. And even if you are ready and 100% confident – when you are using different equipment in a strange gym, you still can lose your place in the air or come loose from a bar at the wrong time and eat ****. But as coach – its up to me to get the boys ready and confident. In fact, if they couldn’t do everything they needed to do to win in their sleep – I was sweating bullets at a meet. I also always expected more than the kids thought they could do – and they always, without exception, exceed my expectations by miles.

    All this said – I didn’t coach young men in football and I am not sure what the proper balance is and I don’t pretend too. So far, Coach Wilson seems like a coach I could respect and bust my ass for. So finally, Tsao – we agree on something – even though I think you have somewhat of an authoritarian personality. And like I sad before, I realize I am basing that on some comments on a message board and we would probably be pals in real life. I am fine with attrition and fine with kids getting a slap down when they need it. I sort of came into this year thinking – well who knows what – but not expecting anything other than what has happened so far. Progress here, set backs there – but some clear progress.

    And Dustin – I love you man. You do great work and I think you are a honest and well informed reporter. Keep it up and don’t let the grumpy folks get you down. Go Hoosiers!

  21. Old IU Gymnast–I love you too man. First, I admire and am grateful for what you did. It is every bit as important as the ‘major’ sports and the gymnasts, etc bust their butts for a lot less recognition (until once every four years we ‘discover’ them in the Olympics).
    Second- I agree with every word where you are essentially saying ‘being a demanding, no-nonsense hard a**’ and being positive’ are not mutually exclusive. As tough as Knight was, he was more often a positive than a negative but, he would let the positive reinforcement come from themselves. We do agree completely. Third, I love DD as well- and I’ve told him so. I’m just kind of a demanding reader and love reading good stuff. I really do think DD could be great (I’ve seen few better at interview/summary reporting…informative, analytical and the hardest part, they flow”). I think he’s got a great future (hope we keep him a while). But, I do think he needs to remove his own experiences a bit sometimes, and have told him so).

    Yes. I agree…we could probably get along. I don’t mind differences at all…they make me learn and the only thing that keeps me from feeling old is that I’m still learning and some of it stays.

    The more I’m on this blog, the more I recognize other bloggers, the more I wish we could all have a ‘Blog Convention” sometime. Make Chet Convention Pres and DD- Official Recorder of Minutes (then talk our bu**s off).

  22. Old Gymnast- wow!!! just realized after re-reading your post and its first paragraph. I checked the IU Athletics page and realized we don’t have Gymnastics anymore?? Rrrappnffnnksssasskkatt!!! What a ******* shame!!! Incredibly st*p*d decision. When? Why? Who made that decision?

    Do I remember the name Jim Royer as coach? My kid worked out with them in his off season and it really helped him become an All-American in his sport. What a terrible thing!! That’s something we should be doing with our TV money as well. Funding non-money making sports. And now they’re considering putting the football and basketball players on salary? Absurd!!

    Think I can be a pain-**-***-**? Get me started on something like this!

    BTW…do you remember Spike Dixon, the trainer? Told me he had never, ever seen a worse set of legs. That was the day BEFORE I injured one of them.

  23. I didn’t know they dropped the sport, either. Gymnastics was huge at my high school and I was very surprised they didn’t have it at the hs level in NC.

  24. TTG,

    Gymnastics was dropped in the 80’s. Not familiar with Jim Royer’s name. Otto Ryser was I believe the coach for a while. Perhaps Jim Brown, as well.

    The sport was dropped as part of the fallout caused by Title IX.

    By the late 60’s Spike had little to do with football or basketball. I am not sure about the other sports. Warren Ariel was the trainer on 17th Street, followed by Tom Healion.

    Much like conference realignment, providing additional financing is not new. I can remember hearing talk about both subjects in the 60’s.

  25. Coach Brown was my coach and we tried to keep the program going as a DII program without scholarships after it was eliminated. I think I was one of the last guys to participate. It was pretty hard to make yourself work 6 hours a day for a sport that was not officially part of the NCAA anymore. Title IX is great, in the respect that so many kids that never would have been able to participate in college athletics now have that chance and I love what it has done for women’s sports. However – it has also really hurt men’s international sports in college. The upshot is that most gymnasts that are training for the olympics go to Stanford, Iowa, Michigan, Michigan State or Ohio State – and since that only means a total of 30 scholarships really exist at the highest level of the sport. And most kids end up staying at clubs to train. Track and Field, Wrestling, Swimming and Diving have all seen that same kind of attrition. And since we are talking football here – the main culprit for men’s international sports is the 88 scholarships that football is allowed. In my humble opinion, the NFL should pay college football scholarships, since the NCAA is their farm league – and then take those scholarships off the books and allow some men to compete in other olympic sports. That said – I haven’t dealt with anyone at NCAA since I quit coaching and moved on with my life after sports, so they don’t ask me!

    Great conversation and Go Hoosiers!

  26. TTG, Your Q in the 2nd paragraph of post #16 has been paramount in my thinking since the middle of Spring practice. The course he has chartered for this FB program is not subtle and is not meant to be. Long term near terminal indispositions even though not medical still take strong remedies. Raise the BAR.

  27. OldIUGymnast,

    You might be interested to know that football scholarships have been reduced. Between the NCAA and Title IX the B10 has reduced from 120 to 88. The old Southwest Conference, Big 8 and the SEC had higher numbers than that.

    It is very easy to blame football and to some extent basketball for the financial woes when an athletic department cuts programs. If IU could fill the stadium every weekend during the fall, then you might see gymnastics brought back. More important, for years IU football was/has been a bottom feeder financially in the B10 and that has really hurt sports like gymnastics.

    I have a question for you. This is not to make a point for an argument but how many high schools in Indiana have gymnastic teams?

  28. Tsao,
    I’ll respond to your question at some point soon, but it could be a few days. Coming up on a busy stretch here. Don’t want you to think I’m dodging, but it’s a nuanced answer and it could take some time.

  29. Jay,

    You know – I have no idea and I really stopped paying attention to gymnastics in Indiana in 1996 when I stopped coaching full time. I know there are a number of girls programs but I don’t know of any men’s high school gymnastics programs anywhere in the United States. There are really just a handful of individuals in the whole country that have the training (you basically need a deep and broad understanding of kinesthetics, bio-mechanics, sports psycology, athletic training and strenth training – plus you have to be able to coach and understand the sport) to be a gymnatics coach. I don’t really think it is appropriate for the history teacher that did pommel horse in 1972 in high school to coach a team. In gymnastics, when you screw up you get a free trip to the wheelchair or funeral home. There are some great clubs in Indiana though. Gene Watson – the guy who coached the 1988 olympic team and who has put at least 15 guys on the national team is in Indianapolis. One of the best womens coaches – Marvin Sharp is in Indy as well. I hope I didn’t come off as bitter – I am not at all. I love gymnastics. It changed my life and I met some of the finest people I know in that sport. I just don’t do it anymore and I am not dialed in like I used to be. I am in my 40’s and I work 60 hours a week doing something completely different. But I love it and I heart almost bursts with pride everytime I see one of the men I coached when they were boys on TV.

    I love football and I think those young men deserve at least free school for their committment – it is just that those 88 scholarships MUST be matched by 88 women’s scholarships – plus the basketball, baseball, wrestling, track, cross country, gymnastics and water polo scholarships at what ever level those are awarded. I think women interested in sports should get the opportunity to compete in those sports at the highest level and I can honestly say that sports taught me so many intangible things that I don’t think I could have learned elsewhere. Wrestling taught me to never quit. Gymnastics taught me that impossible doesn’t exist – it is just a stand in for I don’t want too. But I was 5’6 and 160 the day I graduated from IU. I benched 325 and could hold a cross for 8 seconds, and could beat several of our corner backs in a 50. But I was 5’6 and 160! The big three don’t want guys like me (except maybe baseball – but honestly, while I respect the players – that sport bores the piss out of me!). Jordy Hulls TOWERS over me. The small guys on the football team look huge next to me. If I tried to run around a lineman in a football game all they would have to do is touch me and physics would take me out of the play (okay, maybe I could have done okay as a pass rusher – The guys in the 250-280 range could never catch me in the pick-up games). If I played corner a small guy for football would be able to get to the ball before me – and at 22 I had a 39 inch vert and could grab the rim. I am not blaming football or title IX. I think they are both great – but one of the unintended consequences is that international sports and atheletes that don’t fit into the big guy sports get left out in the cold.

  30. Old Gymnast (Jay Gregg, HClarion, Chet, Dustin, others)-Fantastic conversation! I’ll get to a comment in a bit, but finishing some stuff on a deadline first.

    BTW- It was Jim Brown I was thinking about not “Royer’. I did know a Royer (really good guy), but can’t remember who/when/why. Brown was the terrific guy/gymnastics coach I referred to as Royer. Sad…sad to hear about that ending. He and the gymnasts were great people (and if I recall correctly several; of the divers for Hobie Billingsley worked out with him as well- including Cynthia Potter- oops! there goes my heart again!)

  31. Hoosier Clarion- Thanks, I think your posts- whether I agree or disagree with them- are always thoughtful and clearly contribute.

    The issue of coherent vision, standards, definitions, criteria for evaluation, accountability for performance is not particular to our football program. All we have to do is look around. But thinking about these issues in small bites that don’t leave us sucking our thumb helps clarify who we are.

  32. My wife and I were talking about this subject last night. We have been very involved in non-revenue sports for a couple generations. I think the good intentions of Title IX have been a disaster. Our solution is to take football out of the formula. The coast/expense of football is a wash. Some places it finances the entire athletic department, some places it’s a burden. The thing is, with Title IX demanding that expenditures by gender be equal the mere existence of a football program nearly dooms men’s non-revenue sports. There is no women’s equivalent taking up 88 scholarships. There is also no women’s program bringing in tens of millions of dollars of revenue but that is not figured into the equation. Hence, our solution. Do not count the football program when assessing Title IX spending.

  33. Ken Bikoff’s commentary in the most recent addition of Inside Indiana said it best, “Wilson and his staff are playing big-boy football, and they aren’t worried about hurting any feelings. It’s an old school approach, one that I applaud.”

    Mr. Bikoff also said, “It may not be pretty. There will be criticism, there will be growing pains and there will be plenty of fans wondering what is going on in the program. Creating something new tends to get a little messy early in the process, and right now Wilson is working with little more than a recipe and a few key ingredients.”

    Hosier Clarion; Post #10 was very well said and I agree with your assessment.

  34. If I’ve ever seen an argument that addresses why government needs to keep itself out of as much of our lives as possible, the outcome as seen in the loss of revenue and consequent loss of programs says it all. We have a tendency to get very confused when we say equality and mean equity; and we get downright dogmatic when we discuss equity and start yelling equality.

    The intentions were great, logical, just and assumed a noble purpose. And ended up taking a hatchet to the patient instead of a scalpel. Great justice!

    I think Chet and his wife are on to something.

  35. Because I am of the age I am I was not going enter my views of Title IX. Not for the arrows that might follow but because I saw personally what it did to destroy mens sporting teams in many regional/geographical/niche areas that had heavy emphasis and successes with particular mens sports. I am not anti girl(although my bride might roll her eyes). This broad brush wheeled by social engineers/government/courts always puts a positive of a laser on who is being uplifted(for ever)but never 1 damn ray of thought toward who could be negatively affected long term(IU gymnastics forever). As the feminist movement matured and exploded with action I am quite sure natural evolution of civil change would have found a way to accomplish equity being sought even if it initiated roots in a similar regional/geographic niche basis. Yes it might have been 5-20 years after the Title IX directive but the scales of equity would have been allowed to seek their own levels w/o using the civil ax. We are always trying to shove 6 lb. of crap into a 4 lb. bag. But what the hell would a surly old curmudgeons know?

  36. I think Title 9 is a form of affirmative action within athletics. Although well intended, both have unintentional side effects. Similar to the newest wonder drug. The wonderdrug might cure a certain condition, but could cause severe side effects such as cancer, loss of appetite, diziness or weaken your immune system.
    As some of you said, there are to many uncontrolable variables to keep things fair across the board.

  37. True but the difference is an individual has the right to decide to take the wonder drug or not based on the side affects and any other criteria. That right could disappear with the way things are being realigned for our betterment.

  38. Not sure of the specifics behind Title X, but maybe the entirety of college sports needs to be reexamined. Universities look more and more like a snapshot of corporate America. The average student attending games(those that can even afford the tickets)is accumulating mountains of debt while millions are poured into coaches salaries and facilities. Personally, I don’t think a coach should be paid anymore than a top professor. It also turns my stomach a bit to see the one-and-dones that sign with NBA teams prosper more in one year than most college grads will earn in four decades. TV contracts, national exposure for the university, the lifelong lessons and values that athletics can offer a young person….I know all the arguments in defense of feeding the monster and sustaining the monster. But where is the money flowing down the river? Where is the balance? Where did our priorities go?

    I work on a midnight shift at a manual labor job..I’m lucky. It’s supplemental income and my wife has carried more of the load in providing for our household. I could do better and should do better. You don’t need to know my life story. I just mainly wanted to tell you that I see so many young and bright kids that have already given up. They have become sadly disenfranchised and give zero glance to any possibility of pursuing higher education. These are bright young people lacking in the basics of support in all aspects of life. Their employer, a multi-billion dollar corporation, looks at them as easily replaceable and our learning institutions are out of their reach. The monumental cost of an education is too daunting. Many of these kids can’t turn to families that obviously have no means to supplement an education when they fight to sustain their households in the face of soaring costs in living expenses, fuel, food, and health care, amidst decades of collapsed wages.

    I feel for the guy that sees the sport that he dedicated much of his life being abandoned. ESPN executives could give a crap about his story or the young rotting minds on menial labor assembly lines that faithfully tune to the plethora of big time sports programming that feed the monster lining the pockets of the privileged few. I love sports and hate to think of a day when college basketball and football become as empty in attendance and vacant of cheers as the hopes of many forgotten young people that will never find a classroom chair at Indiana University. There will be a day all the profits will cease in the quicksand of greed that has lured college athletics into its palace.

  39. Give me a break. It’s only propaganda that would have you believe that your rights are disappearing. The only rights that will hopefully disappear are the “rights” of the corporate world to mislead and poison you in order to make a sale of their drug/product.

  40. I used to think Title IX was an imposition. Some 15 years ago,(+/-) my daughter and her then fiance announced they were making plans to get married. He started sharing his plans to graduate and for his career. And, about the role my daughter would have in them.

    I didn’t say anything, but something disturbed me. I stepped outside and started thinking about her A+ record, editor of her school paper and yearbook, her award winning masterful poetry and short stories and…her great performance as a high school athlete (volleyball captain, all-state and as a runner.

    I could feel the heat rising up the back of my neck. I thought, ‘she’s a better thinker, she’s a more accomplished competitive athlete, she’s more aggressive, a top notch writer…and he’s going to give her a role in his career?. Give me a ****** break! I kept my mouth shut, finished dinner, took Kaopectate the next day and walked around breathing noisily.

    It was about the time Title IX was passed. I think not too long after.

    Weeks later, for whatever reason, they first delayed and eventually called off their engagement. She went on with her life, graduated with honors, became an All-American in another sport in which she won national championships, went on to represent the US all over the planet. She eventually went to graduate school, became a top professional in her chosen field and now has her own practice. She mmet and married a great guy, an outstanding artisan who has his own business and a very competitive runner who supports her endeavors as strongly as she supports his. They’ve have two incredible children, a boy and a girl.

    If you can’t tell, I worship the ground she walks on.

    Every time I think her ‘calling’ once was to support her former fiancee’s career I wake up in the morning to find the dust on my pillow from the grinding of my teeth that night. I probably questioned why Title IX was adopted. Now, whatever the cost, thank God for Title IX. While I consider myself quite conservative the very thought of my daughter being placed on a second level or not having the opportunity to compete and achieve whatever she wants to makes me reach for the Kaopectate.

  41. Though you kept your mouth shut at the dinner table and didn’t interfere with her decision, the lessons and values you had taught her probably removed her instantly from the spell of that chauvinistic creep the moment the hairs stood up on the back of your neck. I enjoyed that story, Tsao. It’s the best feeling in the world to know your parents will always be there for you. She’s very lucky to have you as her dad.

  42. I didn’t come up with the following theory, but find it persuasive. The participation of girls in sports has resulted in things such as Title IX, as oppposed to having been caused by Title IX or other “affirmative action.” During the most recent decades, our cultural expectations of “the good father” have expanded: being the gruff, dependable, “really-deep-down-loves-his-children-but-doesn’t-ever-say-it” breadwinner is no longer enough. Dads are expected to be much more involved with their children’s lives than in the past. So what does the loving, modern dad do? Sports. Beats playing dress-up! Remember- sports is a great social lubricant for people who have nothing else in common! Well, maybe that’s a little bit overboard, but not much. Think about when the home town is in the playoffs. All the “civic pride” hoopla is a chance to quaff a cold one with someone of another race/sex/political view whom you might not otherwise ever speak.

  43. This brewhah about student loan debt is real life for sure and for certain. Debt(cost)is the agreed terms for the investment into any asset. Education is no different. Aren’t the boys in the White House(and our own school boards)always telling us they need more of our personal income in the form of taxes to invest in education. If indeed there should be no financial obligation for a student to attain his education asset then I to would like to have a debt free asset. My choice would be a $6M stock portfolio divided evenly among IBM, F, GE, BA, GOOG and AAPL. That cow won’t milk. I also take some issue with the opinion corporations look at employees as just expendable or replaceable. My oldest son went to work for a large corp this past Spring. He is in a type of forward management training model and just recently was told he and all the other folks in the program with him are eligible for funding allowing them to attain their post graduate degrees. He, in the next 12 months will be enrolling in Kelley to earn his Masters, paid for by his employer. Needless to say he is full speed ahead. There are just as many, if not more good stories about mean, vile, greedy large corporations as there are bad stories.

  44. Full funding for their Masters? Are you kidding me? Hope he’s going to work for one of those investment firms we bailed out. Nothing warms my heart more than to know the severely financially strapped that used to be the industrial backbone of this great country are now sinking some of their “somewhere over the rainbow” pot of gold into kids of fat corporate mommies and daddies. What a marvelous return on the bailout investment a family facing foreclosure. Meanwhile, as low income kids that somehow fell of the business world fast track that passes through Clarion’s Cabrini-Green face education costs double the average debt of a home with a 30 year mortgage, we fill our science, engineering, and technology programs at our universities with a growing contingent of “fully funded” international students. The business world feeds the business world…the rest of the scholarships and handouts go to athletes(must keep up our competitive image) and educating the rest of the world as we build an Iron Curtain around our own inner-city poverty and disintegrating schools.

    I hope my previous story didn’t give the impression those bright kids on the midnight shift were bitching. Most of them bust their a$$es every night and restore my faith in the unselfish, hard-working internal spirit of decent young men and women. There stories are never told on Fox or CNN. They look at a $180 weekly paycheck like they just won the lottery. I guess that’s what makes me feel the most sad. Something has happened that blinds them from believing they can do more.

    It’s unfair to put that entire burden on corporate America. Maybe instead of worrying so much where the burden should fall(as we do with blaming coaches that have taken risks on kids already long removed from the “fast tracks” of classrooms that haven’t had the benefits a safe and solid suburbia education), we should reach out, encourage, tutor, and make honest attempts at change and accessibility, instead of working so hard to camouflage the narrowness of our vision in what is just and equitable.

  45. The answer to your Q’s #1&2 are yes and no respectively. The reply to your next statement is no, it is not an investment firm as in the manner you are attempting to disparage but in the business sense they are investing in the company’s future by enabling young, promising personnel to become more valuable to the company. Success breeds success. Greed working in reverse.

    Your statement in the 2nd paragraph of post #42 “I could do better and should do better” and from #50 “Something has happened that blinds them from believing they can do better” reminds me that birds of a feather do flock together. If somebody knows they should do better but still do not attempt to do better for themselves, why the hell would anyone else take an interest. It sounds as if you will have to live with your lot in life because that is the way you like it.

    As for the rest of your posting I agree with whomever it was that described them as to convoluted for reply.

  46. I don’t go to the job feeling a great sense of pride…My working there started an attempt to do better. I don’t have the answers and I know I’m at a crossroads. It’s late in the game and I’m down by more than IU vs Wisconsin…You are right..I have stalled and I have no one to blame but myself. I spent much of my time trying to convince myself I was being a dutiful son in a family business. It closed up over 10 years ago. It sucked many of my dreams out of me. Good luck to your boy and the success that breeds success.

  47. Thanks Harvard. Actually, I’m grateful to her for all I’ve learned since I met her. When I hear Wilson describe his ‘fantasy’ QB….it’s her! BTW feel the same way about her older brother, just that I had a lot more to learn about her ‘space’ on this planet and extend mine to include it.

    As a friend Harvard, allow me…give yourself a break. It took me years to find my ‘space’; and when I did everything just sort of fell into place. But, the hardest thing to learn was that the intensity and sometime discomfort of the search is the best indication of the process of becoming productive. Accept it and accept the struggle as a positive.

    Sorry….not being ‘preachy’; just drinking a beer with a friend. (We used to have those and talked that way. Now, we pay $150+ to a shrink for what used to cost us nothing and was always ‘on call’).

  48. Thanks Tsao. This old sap has lost his zap. When I should have been searching, I was loafing. When I should have been breaking out of a shell I was making decisions to crawl deeper in. You have no idea….but thanks for caring.

  49. Don’t know your age or circumstances, Harvard, but most people (myself included) look back and think they could have done “better.” And my life is pretty good. My regrets aren’t at all about $$$. But maybe I could have had a more intersting/societally (is that a word?) career path and wound up in the same place. Have you ever compromised on your ideals or morals? A lot of “successful” people sure have. You seem bitter (very judgmental, I know), and maybe, by gummit, you are entitled to be! So let it out here. If you are an IU football fan, in my book you are in the top .00001% of humanity.

  50. Meant to say “societally useful” career path. I now realize that I should just have written “socially.” Duh!

  51. Davis: “…If you are an IU football fan, in my book you are in the top .00001% of humanity.” Dr. Livingston I presume?

    Well said!

  52. HforH (Willy was better), again, I am on board with you. I suppose I am successful. I got three degrees at different time for different reasons. I graduated from IU in the ’70s working at College Mall Shell and Bloomington Hospital with no debt. That is no longer possible. It costs so much more. I previously mentioned that my oldest has $100,000 in student loans but he is a talented engineer who bought a POS house and restored it by himself, took on a couple roommates and is actually making money on his first home, so he’ll be fine. My other two want will also have a mountain of debt. My wife makes a good salary but we are both semi retired, so money is tighter than I’d prefer but we’re fine, too. We are part of the 99%% (God Bless those people). I don’t know if I ever truly found my way but I had a good time and I’m happy. I was a Navy pilot who got injured and couldn’t fly anymore but had that not happened I would have never met my wife. I then became a paramedic but, after 5000 calls started having PTSD, so my saintly wife worked nights so I could go back to grad school (it was the only way we could take care of our kids). I became successful in my current field, kids grew up (mostly), and we never went hungry.
    As for myself, I would never ever want to be one of those rich, greedy bastards that have done so much damage to our country. I have enough and that’s all I need and I don’t need to worry about the ‘great Karma get even’ or whatever awaits us (if anything).
    Stay the course. Things tend to work themselves out with a positive attitude and a strong work ethic. It’s a tough time but we digging ourselves out of a pretty deep hole. Things WILL get better.
    Keep on Scooping.

  53. As TTG alluded to, don’t beat yourself up. There are more than enough people that will do that for you. I’m sure Yoda has some great quote about regrets that I can’t think of but I gave up on regrets a long time ago. Waste of time.

  54. Thanks Chet. I appreciate those kind words immensely. Clarion is right, though. He summed me up pretty well. I don’t have many great stories to tell. He’s not the bad guy. He’s just the bringer of truth.

  55. H4H, Hang in there with increasing resolve each day. There is opportunity before you. Grab it.

  56. HC, my oldest also works for a Fortune 500 (actually, a division of…down the food chain) and they are paying for his masters, as well. It took him six months to find a job but it ended up being a really great job.

  57. Wonderful. My boy received his degree Dec. of 2006. This was the first opportunity he felt was the right fit for him. Or maybe he got his fill of pouting concrete for 4 1/2 years. I would venture to say there is truth to both but it is always good to know as a parent your kids have achieved their education goals and also exercise strong work ethic.

  58. I’d have to examine with you here. Which is not one thing I normally do! I get pleasure from studying a put up that will make folks think. Also, thanks for allowing me to remark!

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