The Movement Watch: Yogi Ferrell, Ron Patterson, and Jeremy Hollowell

Indiana’s off-weekend gave Tom Crean — and the IU basketball beat media for that matter — the opportunity to watch three of his recruits play games in Indianapolis on Saturday afternoon. Park Tudor and point guard Yogi Ferrell faced off against Broad Ripple and guard Ron Patterson at Bankers Life Fieldhouse, and then Lawrence Central and swingman Jeremy Hollowell played Mount Vernon at home.

All three put together performances that could best be described as vintage — nothing necessarily surprising, but the sort of outings that could serve to remind Crean why he recruited each of them in the first place.

Ferrell showed off his normal combination of speed, craftiness with the basketball, and court vision scoring 22 points and dishing out six assists in Park Tudor’s 53-48 win over Broad Ripple. He finished 7-for-20 from the field and had some trouble when Broad Ripple switched from man-to-man to a 2-3 zone, but he still showed the ability to knock down just about any shot on the floor. He hit 3-pointers, went to the rim and finished off of contact, and showed developing body control in the mid-range, knocking down pull-ups and floaters over defenders when he found holes in the zone.

“He’s certainly capable,” Park Tudor coach Ed Schilling said. “Again, it’s because he works on it. It’s not like this magically happens. It’s because he’s dedicated himself to it. We do it every day in practice. We do it after practice. He comes in on his own. He absolutely shoot’s 3’s off the catch, off the dribble. Floaters. Finishing at the rim, using the rim. He really just continues to develop. It’s been quite a joy to watch it.”

The only time Ferrell wasn’t really attacking off the dribble was when he was guarded by the 6-foot-3 Patterson, who boasts a wingspan much longer. Patterson finished with 17 points, showing continually extending range with three 3-pointers, but was just as impressive with his ability to keep the speedy Ferrell in front of him.

“He’s such an athletic player,” Ferrell said of Patterson. “He’s gonna be so good when we get to IU. … He’s tough because he’s long. When a lot of coaches play me, they put a long defender on me because it’s tough for me to get around them. That’s something I really need to work on, but I know when he gets out, he’s going to be a great defender.”

Mount Vernon didn’t have much defense for Hollowell at all. The 6-foot-8, 210-pounder had 28 points and nine rebounds, scoring from inside and outside. Though he projects as a small forward in college, he continues to show better an average skills in the post-up game, whether he positions himself in the low block or the high post.

“We’ve been talking about reverse pivoting so you can see the double-team coming at ya,” Lawrence Central coach J.R. Shelt said. “He’s always been a really good post player. So when he gets it down there, he’s so long and he’s got such a high release that he’s a tough guard. I think with that, his guard skills makes him a tough post player.”

Shelt said the Bears are working to help him understand how he’s being defended and how to pick his spots rather than simply bear down and attack.

“We’re just trying to work on teaching him how to score,” Lawrence Central coach J.R. Shelt said. “I told him he’s too good to get all the way to the rim. People aren’t gonna let him. He’s gotta catch and face up and shoot the open shot, and create space and knock it down. He did a better job of that tonight. There’s still a couple of plays when he’s trying to get all the way to the rim. It’s just not going to happen with a name like Jeremy Hollowell the way he has now. So take the easy shot, keep working the ball, have patience. I thought he did that for the most part tonight.”

AUDIO: Lawrence Central coach J.R. Shelt

AUDIO: Jeremy Hollowell


  1. Can we stop calling it the movement….it is a stupid name if you ask me
    IU is beyond such a name

  2. Charles,

    It is my understanding that one of the recently signed recruits dubbed the class the “Movement”. What’s wrong with it, these are kids playing and having fun.

  3. When they committed, it was a movement, because we sucked. However, because respectability has come back to IU a year early, it might be appropriate to retire the name.

  4. Dustin (or anyone else reading)regarding next year’s team and the overall depth how do you think it might shake out? It is hard to see how CTC will be able to get minutes for everyone. I could see a Dean Smith type of rotation with 7 rotations each getting 5 minutes of time for the first 35 minutes. Do you think that may be the way it gets done to keep everyone happy? It’s just my opinion, but I would divide the roations up mainly like this in order to get experience on each set of five guys per half

    1) *Here I want to get out quick in the first 5 minutes of the game with an athletic set of guys all capable of scoring in ways and 4 of the 5 consistently good on defense. Also I want to get these guys in the flow with a full 5 minutes before I make any subs.
    PG — Yogi
    SG — VO
    SF — Watford
    PF — Perea
    C — Zeller

    2) *This unit is about getting experience with Hulls and Sheehey on the court with the younger guys. The defense is solid and you are counting on Hulls to shot well, with Hollowell as the best pure scorer on the floor and Sheehey able to put up points too.
    PG — Hulls
    SG — Abell/Patterson (Abell for 2.5 minutes then Patterson for 2.5 minutes)
    SF — Sheehey
    PF — Hollowell
    C — Jurkin

    3)* This is my best defensive unit and one that I want pressuring the opponent for most of the court. Other than Zeller I want all of these guys to be totally gassed when they are done with this five minute stretch
    PG — Yogi
    SG — Patterson/Abell (Abell and Patterson split minutes again with Patterson getting 5 straight. This will be hard for Abell to get into the flow offensively but his contribution like Patterson is mainly on defense.
    SF — VO
    PF — Perea
    C — Zeller

    4)* I want to close the half out scoring well so I have veteran guys who are experienced here with a solid offensive presence
    PG — Hulls
    SG — Sheehey
    SF — Hollowell
    PF — Watford
    C — Zeller


    Zeller 15 minutes
    VO 10 minutes
    Hulls 10 minutes
    Yogi 10 minutes
    Perea 10 minutes
    Watford 10 minutes
    Sheehey 10 minutes
    Hollowell 10 minutes
    Patterson 5 minutes
    Abell 5 minutes
    Jurkin 5 minutes


    So how do you guys think CTC will manage to get playing time for all of these talented players? A nice problem to have is what a majority of posters will say and I agree. But I’m actually looking to see how others thing that the minutes will get divided up amongst everyone. I do believe it could be a real issue.

  5. harvo I agree there are some nuts on here. I’ve been on blogs for years and this is by far the most bizzare one i’ve ever read. Beard I like your starting 5 for next year. Im glad to see im not the only one who thinks Yogi will get the nod over Hulls. Hulls is a great competitor but the simple fact is we have to have a pg. Now who’s the better pg Yogi or Jordie? From everything I’ve read and seen I’d have say Yogi. Yes Hulls is the better shooter but from what I’ve seen and read about Yogi he has him in every other area of the game most importantly defense! I know Yogi is a great on ball defender. Now the 2 posistion could go to Hulls but I doubt CTC will put two guys who are 6’0 or under on the floor to start a game. I don’t think I’ve ever seen that in my life at the ncaa level. If so must have been so bad I don’t recall. And it looks like you’ve done your home work on Jukin. I don’t think he will have much to offer on the offensive end. So I will have to agree about 80% with your rotation. As much as it pains me I think Elston will get more minutes than we want him to. He will be a senior and CTC will play him come hell or high water. Watch Wednesday there’s another senior who IMO will be starting whom again IMO should only be backing up our backcourt. That’s my take anyway.

  6. “it looks like you’ve done your home work on Ju(r)kin”

    That is pretty much the EXACT sentiments of a large percentage of posters to this site regarding Will Sheehey, Victor Oladipo, and Remy Abell. Things like ‘a waste of a scholarship’, etc,. were bandied about.

    If there’s one thing you should have picked up by this time, CTC has a pretty good eye for talent. Let’s let Peter show up on campus and hit the court before we try to decide how many minutes he’ll be playing.

  7. Oh no Chet you misunderstood me. I don’t think in anyway I insinuated any of those things or didn’t mean to atleast. All Im saying is I don’t think he will be nearly as polished on the offensive end as Elston. I hope Im wrong! I don’t know how many minutes he gets and truly don’t really care at this point. I know he’s a terrific shot blocker but Rivals and Peegs both seem to think he will need a year of being in the system to become a good post man for IU. And I find Rivals to be the authority on high school recruiting. The day you ever hear me say a 7’0 coming to IU is a (waist of a scholarship) please call my momma and tell her to come check on me!! No doubt CTC has a great eye for talent. With Sheehey, now Vic Im not sure coming out of Dematha (where a lot of D1 schools watch like hawks)he deserves a overwhelming pat on the back that he gets on this blog. And Remy was recruited by Louisville and in KY he was considered a great player coming out so Im not sure I’d go to far with that one either. Just my opinion.

  8. “The Movement” is fun, the projections, at this time, of playing time NEXT year are absurd, the recruits are playing great, and this team is FUN to watch and to root for! What an improvement from February 2011!

  9. I can’t claim to recall Remy’s recruiting before we came into the picture. Did UK or U of L offer? I know he was headed to Bradley. I’m not saying you were dismissive but some were.

    BTW, I’m glad you and your Dad got to go to the game. My late Dad and I were not close but he did occasionally get me to a UK or U of L game as a kid. As I mentioned before, I have memories of seeing people like Pete Maravich with him because of it. I learned to spend more time with my own kids, too. Sometimes the ride home is the best part. Good for you.

  10. Beard, pretty solid breakdown. I like your logic and combinations. There are some interesting dilemmas involved here like the absence of Elston and Etherington, the Abell/Patterson situation, and who starts. I find very little to disagree with here, and what I’m about to say is based more on what I think WILL happen then maybe what Should happen, but here are my couple exceptions.

    – the PG position is Hulls’ to lose. It will not be handed over to Yogi from day 1, and by the time he has a few games under his belt it will be conference play. I just believe that Crean will maintain his trends of loyalty and playing experience over youth (if he perceives their abilities to be comparable).

    – I believe that Abell will get the nod over Patterson in minutes distribution, at least to start the season. He has paid his dues this year and Crean will have plenty of freshmen he HAS to divvy minutes out to. I think Abell will have to play his way out of the rotation, or Patterson is just so damn good that Crean has to play him. Right now I perceive them as having about the same skill set and size, so Crean stays loyal… The only caveat to this is Abell transferring.

    – staying with my theme of loyalty, I also believe that Elston takes Jurkin’s minutes. The only two scenarios where I see Jurkin playing more than Elston are him transferring or getting hurt again. But Elston is definitely better on offense, and he has proven to be very solid on defense this year – remember his D against Sullinger down the stretch in the upset? Crean will.

    – last week I wrote about Etherington finding a 5-15 minute per game (Roth-like) niche. I am not sure exactly how it works out, but I am basing that on him making a physical and confidence leap similar to what Dipo and Sheehey did over the last offseason. If he is able to improve his body I also give him the nod (for one year only) over Patterson.

    I see Patterson and Jurkin as freshman casualties to Crean’s loyalty. The real issue is that there are more experienced players in front of them that are comparable in what they can bring to a game. Patterson is a duplicate of Abell, so he gets pushed behind both Abell and AE. Jurkin wont be savvy or offensively gifted enough to jump over Elston (who can be paired with Perea if you need a shot blocker) next year, and of course there won’t be many minutes behind Zeller anyway.

    All this changes in 2013-14, and the sophomore class will rule, but next year I see the only MUST-play guys as Perea, Yogi, and Hollowell.

    I honestly do like the thought process Beard, and if Crean weren’t the coach next year, your scenario may very well be spot-on, but when you add in the whole WWCD thing…

  11. As a short amendment to my points, I was a little uncomfortable with my wording about Crean maintaining loyalty and playing more experienced guys (if he perceives their abilities to be comparable). I actually want to restate that as “if he perceives their influence on the game as comparable”

  12. If Crean starts Hulls over Yogi because of “loyalty”, he should be fired.

    No way in hell Hulls will be “comparable.”

  13. During the Illinois game, the announcers mentioned that Remy was recruited by Louisville but late and offered him a scholarship late (which means that someone they wanted more turned them down). They also said that Kentucky didn’t recruit him.

  14. As usual Laffy you’re a little over the top. Freshman vs Senior is a big gap for Yogi to overcome. I know he talented and I’m psyched to have him, but is he better than Teague? Certainly he isn’t as highly rated a prospect and look at Teague’s impact on the games this year. He is good, but is his influence greater than what hulls has done for IU? Was he better in that game when he and Hulls went head to head? They basically had the same stat lines and IU won… Hulls’ stats are better over all for a less talented team. I think you would have a hard time finding many people that would make an argument that Teague’s (#1 PG and top 5 overall player in his class) impact has been greater than Hulls’ this year.

    Listen I’m no way in hell saying that Hulls is a better athlete, defender or has more talent… But he is a very good decision maker and a good leader. He is averaging over 12 pts and 3 assists, while shooting over 50% from the floor, 50% from 3, and 88% from the line. He has also saved his offense for the most meaningful times it seems. And most importantly he is doing all this as the leader of a 19-6 team that has as many quality wins as anyone in the country.

    You honestly think that Yogi’s influence on a game would far surpass that? Hey Yogi will not be nailed to bench by any means, and “starter” is less important than “finisher”, but Laffy (aka Elmo, aka Rico) I would like to hear some logic behind your statements at some point. Seriously…

  15. On another note, my intrigue with Hollowell continues to grow… I think he might be the steal of the 2012 class. He was listed at 6’5″ only like a year ago, his frame has a nice base to it, he is already 210(?) lbs, but could reasonably put on added muscle without negatively altering his athleticism. He seems to be comfortable anywhere on the offensive end I’ve the floor. Man if this guy has any desire or heart he should be an absolute game-changer.

    It is not unreasonable to think that he could show up at Hoosier Hysteria as a 6’9″ 215 lb combo forward with a skill set like Watford, but with 3 times the athleticism.

  16. I think at least initially we will see lots of Hulls/Yogi in the back court together. With both having good vision and high BB IQ, Hulls outside shooting is not going to exist setting on the bench nor will Ferrell develop his talents into B10 skills from that location. Nothing wrong with 2 capable combo guards on the floor as the same time. I still expect AE will only get token minutes next season even with Roth gone because of RA, JH and Patterson having such accomplished long range shooting and quality floor game skills. 2013-12 will create opportunity for Mr. Etherington.

  17. There is more than “talent” when it comes to these players. I think Yogi is much more mature than Teague. Plus, he has experience playing with Zeller so it’s not like he has to learn how to play with him.

    Seeing as UK will probably win it all this year year and it will be a miracle if we make it to the Sweet 16, I bet most people would pick Teague over Hulls in a heartbeat…..and yes, I know it’s not all because of Teague.

  18. Geoff, I think I just recently(last 2 weeks)read Hollowell is now 6’8″, I do not recall where.

  19. HC – yeah, this article above is listing him as 6’8″, 210…

    Laffy – I’ve already said that I think Yogi has more talent. My point is that you are the only scouting service in the known world that thinks Yogi is a better prospect than Teague was, so let’s deal with reality here…

    I’m not asking which player a coach would pick to run their team I’m sure that 90% would take a freshman Teague or Yogi over a senior Hulls. I would too based on talent and the fact that I’d have them for 3 more years potentially.

    The question here is who will start next year for IU, and that’s a one year scenario that doesn’t exclude the impact of Yogi. This is all conjecture, but mine is based on what I’ve seen from Hulls and Crean over 3 years of B1G basketball, and yours is based off YouTube highlights, Rivals write-ups, and maybe seeing him play a couple times live against HS competition…

    As far as the Teague argument… UK has a long way to go before winning a title. They have very little depth, very little tournament experience, and a freshman PG. obviously they have talent, but the previously mentioned combination doesn’t always work well for a NCAA run. What happens if they win the SEC title as expected, playing 4 games in 5 nights and then have to play again 4 days later and then again against a good team on a neutral court in the second round? I’m not saying they are going to lose early, but that scenario isn’t easy for a young and shallow team.

    If they don’t win the title my guess is it will be because of Teague. If they win it my guess is he will contribute the least of their top 6 players. He shoots 42% FG, 31% 3-pt, and 69% FT as well as turning it over 3 times a game. Those numbers are all considerably worse than Hulls.

  20. Laffy – you also brought up the fact that Yogi has history with Zeller. That’s true, but he has even more experience with the rest of the Movement. So I’ll use your logic against you, why have Hulls come off the bench with a group of freshman he isn’t familiar with and Yogi start with a group of veterans he isn’t familiar with. It makes way more sense the other way around.

  21. You can take your snarky comments about about “YouTube videos and Rivals write-ups” and shove it.

    Don’t cry to me about “needing to be civil” when you throw that out there.

    Actually, I’ve never seen Yogi play at all.

    What I base my views on is watching Jordy get abused for 3 years on defense.

    And, he’s not a pure point. Yogi is. I just don’t believe Jordy is going to play much at the 2 with all that other talent at the position because I doubt we get far with 2 short guards on the floor for a long period of time.

    I think the team will run like crazy next year and the only time Jordy sees the floor if when Yogi needs a break….or we have to have a 3.

  22. Oh, and let me clarify some more before there’s more snarky: It isn’t just watching Jordy get abused on defense for 3 years.

    It’s watching college basketball for 30 years.

    How teams have WON having a 2 guard that gets beats like a rented mule?

    None that I can think of.

    We’re going to be DEEP at the 2 with actual ATHLETES. The second Jordy starts getting whipped on D is when Victor, Will, Remy or Patterson take his place.

  23. I have never made a comment on this blog about others needing to be civil… I could care less.

    I am not saying that you aren’t correct that Yogi SHOULD start over Hulls. If I were a brand new coach starting at IU next year with that roster there would be a tough decision to make most likely. I am just dealing with reality. Crean is the coach, his MO is loyalty, especially to senior guards who have some perceived ability. The team has been very successful this year with Jordy starting. Since Verdell has gone down Hulls has been even better running the point.

    While you’re right that Hulls isn’t a great individual defender, he is a pretty effective team defender, and with exceptional defenders like Dipo or Abell, Hulls will always guard the other teams weakest scoring guard. This year his defense has not hurt the team on the whole, and next year they’ll be an even better defensive team with VJ3 gone and Perea on the back line.

    If you haven’t seen Yogi play, but you have seen Jordy effectively lead this team to a 19-6 record and top 25 ranking, then I’m not sure why you are so ardent in your belief that Yogi would be a considerably more effective player in his freshman year than Jordy will be in his senior year.

  24. A few more points…

    In IU’s losses here is who VJ3’s primary defensive responsibility was:

    MSU – Brandon Wood 13 pts on 6-11 FG
    Minn – Austin Hollins, career high 18 pts on 7-10 FG
    OSU – Lenzelle Smith, career high 28 on 10-12 FG
    Neb – They played a lot of zone, a LOT…
    Wis – more 2-3 zone, but none of the guards had good offensive game for UW
    UM – Jones gets hurt in 1st half

    In only one of those games did Hulls get owned – Appling busted him up good.

    Hulls has not stood out this year as a defensive liability. He has not been taken advantage of in 5 of the 6 losses. The primary reason it seems that IU went to a 2-3 zone was because VJ3’s men kept getting career highs.

  25. All the specualation is so pointless…and much too enjoyable to pass up.

    1. I hereby offer a wager of ONE MEELION DOLLARS to any and all takers that Zeller, Hulls, Watford, and Oladipo start next year. And not because Crean “owes” them or any other nonsense, but because they will be our best players. They will be veteran starters from a 20-win team and trip to the tournament. Any suggestion to the contrary is just silly.

    2. I believe the other starting role will also go to one fo the veterans, but in the interests of the discussion lets say it is not. Who gets the othe spot?
    — Yogi: No. As good as he is, there is no way he starts over Hulls, and little chance they both start. I suspect they will be platooned in much the same way Oladipo and Sheehey are this year, with Hulls getting 25+ minutes.
    — Perea: No way. People are much too enamored of his leaping. I saw him shut down Shaq Goodwin, one of the top-rated players in the country, but offensively he is not ready to start.
    — Jurkin. No. I am not as convinced as others that he needs to redshirt(his numbers as a senior are better than Perea’s), but in any case his role is clearly that of Zeller’s backup.
    — Patterson: Maybe! I know this goes against all the hype, but in as much as this team’s biggest weakness is perimeter defense, Patterson may well be the best complement to our existing players. He is a ferocious defender — even Yogi said it is tough to get around him — and he has a Big 10 frame already.
    — Hollowell: Yes. Of the new players, he seems most likely to start. He can play both ends of the floor, both inside and out. Not sure about his attitude or energy, but his skills are off the chart and he fits well with my four guaranteed starters.

    In some ways the more interesting question than who will start is who won’t play at all. There is no such thing as a 12-man rotation, so 3 or 4 guys are going to be stuck to the bench for the whole year even after someone transfers or redshirts. Etherington, Jurkin, Abell, and Creek (assuming, sadly, he is not his old self), seem likely to struggle for playing time.

  26. In Teagues’ last 8 games, he has 46 assists and 17 turnovers.

    Yeah, he sucks so bad and is the weakest link on the team….


  27. That’s not even close to what I said, or even insinuated…

    I said that he did not outplay Hulls when they played, and lost to, IU. I pointed out that he doesn’t shoot the ball well. And I Guessed that if there is a downfall in the tourney it will most likely be because they have a freshman PG and very little depth.

    He is the 6th most effective player on their team after Davis, MKG, Jones, Lamb, and Miller. That doesn’t mean he isn’t good – all those players are very good.

    Over those 8 games (only 1 against a ranked team) he is averaging 8 pts and 6 assists on 41% FG, 25% 3-pt, and 68% FT… So his assist-to-TO rate has improved, but his shooting and scoring has worsened in every category.

    I am not a Teague hater, but you better come at me with something better than that if you want me to see your point.

  28. For comparison, here is what Hulls and Dipo have done in the last 3 games since Jones went down and their roles became clearer:

    Hulls – 14 pts and 5 ast on 47% FG, 58% 3-pt, and 80% FT

    Dipo – 16 pts and 6 reb on 45% FG and 83% FT (20-24!)

    So my question is why wouldn’t you WANT that backcourt starting next year…?

  29. That’s not “close to what you said”?

    Odd, then what did you mean by this: “If they don’t win the title my guess is it will be because of Teague. If they win it my guess is he will contribute the least of their top 6 players.”

    Sure sounds like “weakest link” to me.

    And I hate to break it to ya, but a point guard usually isn’t a top scorer so I think it’s unfair to say that makes him “least effective” when it’s his JOB to help the OTHERS score.

    I’d say he would be “least effective” if his scoring numbers were higher.

    And the last numbers you gave left out defense…..which is my entire point.

    You say Hulls has only “been abused once.” Guess we’ll have to agree to disagree on that.

  30. Wow. On our way to 20+ wins and a likely trip to the Big Dance and all people can do is rip apart our point guard as they anxiously await something better on the horizon? Can’t we just enjoy what these guys are achieving without selling them out and obsessing over weaknesses instead of strengths? I can assure you, there will be flaws in the games of those part of “The Movement” that we’ll become obvious when they enter a whole new level of competition in the Big 10.

    Hulls is raising many eyebrows lately. Every televised contest I watch, I hear nothing but praise from analysts that seem to have no difficulty loving the kid’s game. He delivers huge, momentum-shifting, clutch-making shots and has an instinctive basketball savviness to know when to break the back an opponent and deliver knockout punches. He raises his game to the pressure rather than fold under it. Those are not teachable traits you’ll find on a rankings site. He’s just beginning to come into his own and has stepped up his game to a level most never perceived he had the potential to rise. He’s far more than a perimeter shooter. Viewing how much more efficiently the team has played in the last two games serves as striking evidence his importance to a Hoosier team finding balanced scoring and running on all cylinders. Four players in double figures against Illinois. I don’t think you so those kind of numbers without the decision making, smart distribution, and running of the offense a top point guard. The synergy benefits of Hulls getting primary duties his leadership role have put us back on a corrected path as we move down the stretch. What a thing of beauty it was to watch when a team looks together.

    Jeff Van Gundy said it very well the other night on an NBA broadcast(he was discussing how Lin has ignited the Knicks)…To paraphrase: It’s always been a mystery to know how to get chemistry on the floor, but it’s so easy to see when it happens. It’s the difference between five guys playing with each other and five guys playing for each other. In my humble opinion, that’s what Jordy means to the Hoosiers. When Hulls is in control of the point guard reins, we see Hoosiers playing for each other. I’m relatively thankful we have an unselfish leader in our backcourt that has no problem the undervaluing his skills. He understands some of the most important facets to winning won’t always be a visible on a stat sheet or win favor with fans that just want jaw-dropping athleticism found on a YouTube clip.

  31. …that will become obvious when they enter a whole new level of competition in the Big 10.

  32. Laffy – He is the weakest link on that team… but that doesn’t mean “he sucks so bad”. It just means that there are 5 players better than him. He is distributing the ball better lately, but the guys on that team are talented enough that they can score with just about anyone at the PG. Teague isn’t the reason those other guys are good.

    I understand first hand what the duties of a college PG are, and don’t think that scoring is the #1 thing. What I am pointing out, time after time after time after time…. is that nothing you have shown me proves or even makes me re-think that Yogi as a freshman will have a greater impact on a college game than Hulls would as a senior.

    If you can provide me some proof that Hulls has been getting taken advantage of, to the detriment of the team, on defense I’d be glad to listen. I watch and re-watch the games for all kinds of fun stuff, and it’s very rare that Jordy’s man is the guy beating us up. We have lost 6 games and in only one of those losses was Jordy’s man the difference in the game. Sorry, to deflate your case, but dems da facts buster.

    I’ll say it again. Jordy isn’t a great individual defender, but he is a good team defender, a good leader, an effective PG and an elite shooter.

    There’s no way in hell that Crean starts a freshman over a senior because he’s better at defense… ummm Abell, VJ3 – need I say more.

    Whether you like it or not, Crean would be perfectly justified in starting his senior captain Jordy over any freshman PG in the class of 2012. Go ahead and live in la-la-laffy world if you want though.

    You’re not entirely wrong to think that Yogi COULD start over Hulls, you just haven’t given any strong evidence as to why he SHOULD or WILL.

  33. Laffy, Laffy, Laffy… if you want me to include defensive numbers on the last 3 games it won’t help your argument.

    the UM game was all screwed up. I didn’t agree with Crean’s initial defensive philosophy. Dipo should have been on Burke instead of Watford. The game got out of hand early, but once Jones got hurt and IU played the combo of Hulls and Dipo the defense was again very solid for the rest of the game. They scored 28 points on 55% shooting with 1 TO in the first 15 minutes of the game when Jones was in, but only 40 points on 43% shooting and 6 TO’s in the last 25 minutes after he got hurt.

    Point is the combo of Jordy and Dipo was part of a very effective team defense. Jordy’s man – Stu Douglas was not the guy who killed us – 9 pts and 4 ast in 37 minutes.

    Here is how the PU backcourt triumvirate did against a Hulls/Dipo backcourt:

    14 pts on 6-31 shooting(19%), including 2-10 from the arc, 4 ast and 8 TO’s in 88 minutes… pretty sweet line from 3 guys.

    How about Illinois’ combo of Paul and Abrams (Watford was on Richardson):

    21 pts on 7-17 shooting(41%), including 1-6 3’s, and 7 ast… wow how did the Illini not win with a dominating performance like that?

    Overall, in the 2.5 games that IU has gone with the backcourt combination of Hulls and Dipo, the opponents (with a combined record of 51-25) are shooting 39% (58-147), and IU is +2, +17, and +13 for an overall +/- of +32 points.

    Still looking for some EVIDENCE from your perspective that would support Yogi over Hulls.

  34. Well, I don;t have tapes of the games, so I can’t go back and watch them to give you all the instances of how Jordy was abused.

    And why are you only counting the losses?

    Just because we won a game doesn’t mean he wasn’t abused. It just means the rest of the team picked up the slack and we could have won by more or lost a close game if one or two other things happened.

    And I don’t think Yogi would start “just” because Jordy gets owned on D. I think Yogi will be MUCH better at dishing the rock. And leading the fast break.

    You want to brag how Jordy did against Purdue and Illinois, two teams that suck? LOL!! Ummmmmmmmm, ok. You go girl.

    Let’s see what he does against MSU.

    And good teams in the Dance before you anoint him the second coming of Isiah Thomas.

  35. It’ll be a combo of both at the PG spot, Jordy will be a senior and the leader of the squad, Yogi is the most talented, play-ready recruit coming in. Crean loves having his best players on the floor. At Marquette one year he started 4 guards. Jordy has his strengths and weaknesses, as does Yogi, it’ll be a fun year.

  36. Geoff, why do you bother? You’ve buried Laffy in facts.

    You can’t make deniers believe or believers refute. It doesn’t alter their reality.

    All he gonna do is throw insults at you (and probably make a few feeble tosses at me, no doubt) because that’s what he’s got.

  37. I’m not annointing anyone anything and you are the only one using hyperbole (do you know what that means?)…

    THE ENTIRE POINT of this is that for Crean to start a freshman over a senior captain from a 20+ win NCAA tournament team there would need to be a SIGNIFICANT difference in that freshman’s influence on the game.

    I am showing evidence that Jordy has been sufficient individually on defense, and as part of a team he has been very successful. If his job is to guard the other teams weakest guard and that guy isn’t hurting us, then what does it matter. He doesn’t have to guard guys like Burke, Frazier, and Appling – thats what Dipo is for.

    PU and UI are a combined 32-18 with wins against the likes of Ohio State and Michigan State. Purdue lost AT OSU by only 3 in the game after losing at home to IU by 17 … You sound like a delirious hater, not an objective debater.

  38. Chet, Jesus never gave up on any human… and neither will I. I will do only what I can – spread the basketball gospel of truth and let it shine on all. I hope and wish that the non-believers see the light, but I cannot force them.

  39. I certainly agree that this season is a very pleasant surprise. I was hoping for small improvements and maybe a tournament bid and what I have seen is like going from crawling to running. A 4 seed and the sweet 16 is hardly an outrageous thought at this juncture. HULLS is a huge part of that. I love what Jordan Hulls brings to the table and all of Hoosier Nation will love him forever almost as Moses guiding us out of the wilderness.

    That all being said, when I listed my original thoughts on lineups I suggested that Yogi was the starting point guard and Hulls would come off the bench. This was mainly to allow Yogi to play with more experienced players and allow Jordy and his experience to handle the second unit that was more heavily weighted with freshmen.

    The argument of who starts and who comes off the bench is not that important really. What matters is crunch time basketball and would be a good place to start another discussion.

    Let me throw some scenarios out there and tell me what lineup you think is best suited for each situation.

    1.) IU is down 2 points with the ball and 20 seconds on the clock. CTC has just called a time out and we got the ball at half court. What lineup do you want on the floor?

    MY ANSWER: PG Yogi, SG Hulls, SF VO, PF Watford, C Zeller

    2.) Situation is reversed. IU is up 2 points and the opponent has the ball and just called a time out and will be inbounding at half court. What lineup do you want on the floor?

    MY ANSWER: PG Abell, SG Patterson, SF VO, PF Perea, C Zeller

    3.) 2 minutes to go in a tie game and both teams are out of time outs so substitutions will be at a minimum. Let’s even take this theoritical situation further and you cannot substitute bc Ted Valentine is the ref and he has ejected all but five players (lol) which five IU guys do you want on the court for what will likely be 2 or 3 possessions per team?


    I know I want Zeller at C (and I think most everyone agrees here).

    I prefer Perea at PF (although that assumes he is an ok free throw shooter which I don’t know for sure). At SF you could convince me of a number of players. Watford is the most experienced but not a great defender. If Hollowell is much better on defense then I would say on the whole he is a better option, but I don’t know that to be true. You could make an argument that neither is the best option and that you want to slide VO down here for maximum defense and slashing ability to the basket to generate fouls. It is a very tough call. I could even see Sheehey there if he is the hot hand. In the end I think I prefer experience and I would go with Watford.

    At the 2 guard, it could be Hulls (he has to be on the court at the 1 or 2 somehow). So really the discussion here gets difficult. In my mind I have 4 guys on the floor so far in Hulls, Watford, Perea, and Zeller. If that is the case, it comes down to Yogi or VO (or possibly Sheehey). In the end I would go with VO.

    Thus my lineup in the crunch time scenario would be
    PG Hulls
    SG VO
    SF Watford
    PF Perea
    C Zeller

    Thoughts on these scenarios?

  40. plus there’s just an overwhelming tide of evidence for my points and every time he opens his mouth he spews some nonsense that is only too easy to refute… like:

    Of course there are instances that Jordy gets abused on defense. Everyone has instances. Personally I believe that Dipo should be the run away winner of the Defensive POY award in the B1G this year, but there are certainly instances where he was abused. The facts show however, that those instances don’t happen very often over the course of a game, or else the guy that Jordy is guarding would be having above average offensive games. They aren’t… (VJ3’s guys are)

    Just like there is more to PG play than scoring (great point Laffy) there is more to defense than locking down on your man… There is communication, making the rights switches, forcing your man towards help, allowing your teammates space to get through screens, boxing out, help and recover, awareness when you are helpside, not getting back-cut, bumping cutters as they come through the lane, and ESPECIALLY knowing what you can and can’t get away with in the B1G. Jordy may not be the quickest guy laterally, and he will never be an elite shut-down defender – in fact it’s the primary reason why he can’t be a NBA player, it’s just based far too much on match-ups for him to succeed – but he isn’t a liability to the IU Hoosiers as a defender.

    Just like Michael Stipe so prophetically crooned… “everybody gets burnnnnnnned, sometimes”

  41. BEARD – where have you been? I don’t recognize your name… are you new? Chet, Harvard, HC can anyone clear this up for me?!

    Finally another poster who actually thinks before he writes? Even if I don’t agree with everything you say Beard I appreciate your points and your effort. BRAVO!

    There are a couple things I need to know before I can really answer your scenarios… primarily what is the date? Is this early in the season? mid-season? deep into B1G play? If it’s early on I don’t think there is any question I am going for experience over youth in all of the above situations. There is plenty of returning talent to turn to.

    As a coach I always want my best decision makers on the floor in these situations. So until any of the freshman prove to me they have higher basketball IQ’s than the vets, they would have to sit in end-game scenarios.

    I could certainly see Yogi having a very high bball IQ and playing his way into those situations, the others are a tougher call.

    Here’s my call:

    Down 2 with ball – Hulls, Dipo, Sheehey, Watford, Zeller

    Up 2 with ball – Abell, Dipo, Watford, Elston, Zeller

    Tied with 2 minutes (no subs) – Hulls, Dipo, Sheehey, Watford, Zeller

    Until proven otherwise…

  42. LOL!!!

    Buried me in facts? It was his OPINION Jordy doesn’t get abused on defense.

    And Chet, it sure is funny you’re crying about “me” throwing out insults when it’s your boyfriend Geoff doing it non-stop.


    Now, go blow him some more kisses while bragging you predicted I’d call you a name for being an idiot.


  43. And then I backed up my opinion with a whole bunch of pesky facts… Something you failed to do.

    And I don’t think Chet has ever been anti-insult… Anti-unsubstiated rumor, yes… But not anti- name-calling.

  44. Come on, Geoff. After reading his postings you’re still expecting him to understand your analysis?


  45. The point was, he was crying about me name-calling while ignoring the fact you were the one that had been throwing out attacks.

    No, you didn’t throw out “facts” that Jordy hasn’t been abused. It was your OPINION….from two games against scrub teams.

    btw……Jesus never existed. The Bible is a fairy tale completely ripped off from other fairy tales.

    So, forgive me for laughing when you talk about FACTS.

  46. I could care less about anyone’s religion or lack thereof. Whatever works for you.

    I’m betting you’re not really a person that laughs much at all. Just a guess. That’s too bad. Laughing is good for a person.

    I laugh a lot.

  47. The Hulls debate rages on once again. It’s great! Now first let me say I did not read every word of every post so please don’t kill me if I make an error I simply don’t have the time to read 40 post so Im sorry. The gist sounds like Laffy feels like Hulls is a horrible defender and Yogi will get the nod over him at the starting position next season and Geoff disagrees. Now as far as personal insults Laffy and Geoff yes there are a lot of children on here who turn to name calling when being debated. I simply don’t understand it and never will. Now I agreed with Beards starting line up for next season but I do agree with Geoff considering CTC’c loyalty It won’t happen. Now Geoff Im sorry but Hulls IMO again IMO does get burned more than any other IU player. Now I dogged Hulls bad on here most of the season until I went to the Illinois game and saw him give it everything he had on the defensive end and was impressed with his effort but effort vs Yogi isn’t a fair matchup. Yes I have watched you tube clips of Yogi. Is that bad? Im also a rivals and espn insider and read weekly about what a great defender he is! They write more about his defense than his offense. And IMO a better ball distributer (which I think we can all agree Yogi is) and a much better defender equals a better chance for IU to win games. If CTC ran a complex Princeton style offense I could see where Hulls leadership would be a factor but considering we don’t Yogi will learn that weave motion in an hour. And Geoff to say Teague is UK’s weakest link is 100% true but everyone that is better than him is a NBA lottery pick so that’s not a bad place to be. Also in the dribble drive the pg will always score less. Geoff do you mind me asking your age? The only reason I ask is a lot of guys over 40 don’t put a lot of stock into the stars system used by rivals, peegs ect. Yogi is a 5 star Mcdonalds all american and considered the #3 pg in the nation. I think he might be a lot better than you think. Example Zeller was a 5 star Mcdonalds all american and most people over 40 I know and work with never thought he would be this good of a player. Now IMO I do agree with Geoff that yes Hulls will hold down the starting position next season out of CTC’c loyalty only. About the whole you tube thing I understand a lot of it is highlight reels but it does give you an indication of what the players can do. Go look at Colin Hartmans clips vs Yogis. You will see what I mean. Bottom line is for Hoosier fans it’s a great problem to have and to be insulting one another over it isn’t a good approach to changing ones views.

  48. Next week it will be more pissing on Watford’s game and revisiting adjectives like “putrid” to show off an objective eye his importance to the team. We’re 19-6! Signature wins against #2OSU..#1Kentucky…Illinois…Purdue @ Mackey. Hell, we’re just sounding spoiled. Past Hoosier teams, led by some of the best point guards to ever play in the Big 10, didn’t always beat up on old rivals the way this team has this season.

    Debate and nitpick if you will. The same bloggers that were all over this coach and team the last three years can’t find any room for distributing a bit of credit when it is due? Be a point guard blogger and DISTRIBUTE! Living in a world of speculation is all good, but have a bit of appreciation for what this group is achieving with that sorry-a$$, substandard, slow as molasses, point guard leading the way. Heaven forbid Hulls and the rest of the scrubs disappoint the $hit out of you and achieve anything else beyond your assumptions of their collective and personal limitations. If Cody jumps for the NBA in two years, Yogi will not find anything approaching the hounding defensive pressure Hulls had to deal with the last two years. Until this season, Hulls was running around like a chicken with its head cut off because there was no legitimate inside threat to take pressure off the perimeter. Even Jones, yes, even the “he who shall not be named” Master of a Turnover Disaster, deserves to be cut some slack in dealing with the same lack of balance our team suffered from during his days of fumbling around in the backcourt.

    Yogi will come in as benefactor their guts thrown all over the floor the last three years. No doubt he’ll have a much easier time looking like Isiah Thomas with the slew of talent surrounding him and a premier center with a year of experience under his belt. No doubt he’ll look better with Hulls always a threat to bury a shot when they’re on the floor together. What threat did Hulls have next him when he was thrown into the fire a team sinking to the bottom of the Big 10 standings as if it were quicksand? Who was the inside threat? Prich? Who was the complimentary threat in the backcourt? Are you going with Mr. Sharpshooter Rivers or Mr. Tunnel Vision VJ?

    Life will certainly be good for Yogi. It will be a great thing to watch as Jordy gets to finally keep his heart inside his chest and go at the pace a true mortal.

    It’s not “The Movement” coming in next year, it’s the “The Benefactors.” I would speculate very few would have been up to the challenge, signed with Indiana, if stared in the eye the same daunting task faced by their predecessors. They will not have to break the label of “losers” or play through a shallow roster and climb out of deepest holes of despair in seemingly endless seasons of going nowhere. It could have all been a failed experiment without guys like Hulls, Pritchard, Elston, Watford, Capobianco, Jones, etc. The previous names didn’t fall like dominoes because the signing of a 5-star center from Washington H.S. that would change the tide of recruiting.

    The Hoosiers that have brought us back to relevancy this year came to Indiana with only their hearts and determination they could make IU fans proud again. I think they’ve done more than enough to be deserving some rightful praise and appreciation.

  49. The Benefactors…I hate to brag. Throw me some love, Chet. You have to admit, that one rolled off the tongue almost as naturally a clutch jumper from Jordy.

  50. You’d lose that bet, Sparky.

    Illinois is a “signature” win? (rolleyes)

    And I never once I said I don;t like Hulls or appreciate what he’s done, so stop the hyperbole cryfest.

    All I said was that he gets abused on defense which any objective viewer will admit.

    It doesn’t mean I “hate” him, Gomer.

    Or that I’m a “fake” fan.

  51. Don’t get me wrong, I never said Adele was a horrible singer..I’m only saying her eyes are too close together. We could obsess over the negative or just attempt to hide it a bit with some makeup(sorta how we fix some of Jordy’s slight faults in his defensive game). Look at Adele’s fake eyelashes. Notice how they have the wingspan of a ? The uniquely designed false eyelashes extending almost 3/4 inch beyond the outer edges each of her sockets gives the illusion of wider spacing.

    I kinda think there’s more to Jordy’s game than meets the casual eye.

  52. HfKY – you were pretty close in your assessment, but didn’t mention my main point… I was not debating who the better player is, or who the better defender is, etc. I was making an argument for why Crean will start Hulls next year at the PG. Every word of what I was going on about was simply to show that it would be hard for any freshman PG to have a “significantly greater influence over the game” than Hulls.

    Teague was more highly rated than Yogi and has not had a greater impact this year than Hulls. I also stated exactly what you said, that being the 6th best player on UK isn’t a slight…. It’s just where he happens to be this year.

    I am 36… Part of the reason I didn’t write much of anything about Yogi in all of this was because I am thrilled we are getting him. If I were the coach next year I would have a really hard time trying to figure out the minutes distribution between he and Hulls. One of the other points I made a few times was that who “starts” is often more ceremonial, but who finishes is more important (of course until Yogi earned my trust I would also finish with Hulls).

    I am not discounting how good Yogi is. I’m just assessing what’s in front of me… One guy will be a senior captain coming off a year that was personally good, but really good for the team. The other is a freshman with no B1G experience. Beyond that Crean is loyal to a fault. The sum of all this equals Jordy being the starter next year, and Crean is justified in doing so.

  53. This Kentucky/Teague thing is pretty elementary. Last year whenever pUKe was mentioned the very next word to follow was Wall(John), this year I have very rarely heard Teague and Ky. in the same sentence. If he stays another year it could be different.

    diehard in post #27 has a good understanding as to who Hollowell(plays at both ends) and Patterson(ferocious defender)are. No one on the present IU roster can perform on the D side of the floor like RP. I still think we see a heavy dose of JH/YF on the floor at the same time next year. They present problems for the opposition to defend with the tools we have inside and their D in tandem will be decent.

  54. Harvard, I do like that.

    You know…one of the effects of Tourette’s Syndrome is transient eye rolling. It just occurred to me that Laffy may have NO idea that he’s blurting out insults.

  55. Laffy-
    I think to continue the momentum and build off the resurgence of confidence that started with the road win at Purdue, could arguably be considered as more than vital to the final higher goals of the season. To an NCAA selection committee, it may not look comparable to an win over a top 20, but if the Hoosiers stumble in the game(and it was a very big game for Illinois to keep their own tournament hopes alive), their chances for finishing anything above .500 in the conference remains in jeopardy. What game isn’t signature as your remaining chances dwindle to take you off the bubble? A notch lower in the final conference standings, combined with giving validation to a committee one less vote of confidence in taking you off the bubble list because you couldn’t follow-up a good road win with a conclusive statement win(can we go with statement win?). Lose against a rival opponent at home, a game you should be very hungry to win, after a strong road win against Purdue, could have easily derailed this team. The win had a lot of symbolic meaning as well considering how the team(primarily our freshman center that was beginning to be pegged as slightly “soft”) responded to a pretty decent kick in the face from the Illini in the first half. The Hoosiers sent a rather strong message to observers a team that can get as in-your-face nasty as a blogger named Laffy. Can we go with “statement win,” Laffy? It was certainly a “statement loss” for Illinois.

    You’re a class act all the way, Laffy. You bring flavor to the blog….a tongue of bitter chocolate with a sweet cherry center for a heart.

    Happy Valentines Day!


  56. Laffy,
    You went over the line at the end there. You know what I mean, so I’m not going to re-address it. You’re better than that.
    Your stuff was fine in context and I know what you were getting at, but since I cut Laffy’s it just looked odd.

    I let you guys roll with the heated debates here, and I don’t want to be the rhetoric police anymore. But let’s cut down the name-calling in general and let’s especially cut it out when random people who stumble across this who aren’t involved would rightly be offended.

  57. I agree. It was pretty putrid. I did nothing to incite such comments and felt it was very ugly. I wouldn’t be too proud giving a blogger that throws around those kind of offensive remarks recognition in my Hoosier Brunch “Two for the Road” segment. I find that disturbingly sad.

  58. Inciting ugly comments?

    IU Power Ranking #4 .. is great.
    Reading some of the Northwestern blogs…they seem optimistic..don’t think so.

  59. What did I miss?! I always miss the stuff that gets cut out… First Harvard had remarks stricken from the record and now Laffy? And I missed them both!

    Dag nab it.

    On a different note altogether, I am in the middle of some really good management/sales training with a guy named Mike Centorani. Very interesting stuff. Part of it, like many of these I’ve had in the past, is a personality test. We answer 25 questions from the Briggs-Myers and then see what our dominant personality is – in this case we are answering them from a perspective of how we handle business relationships. I was 60-40 Amiable-Creative… Basically that means I am interested more in relationships than bottom lines. I found this completely at odds with my blogger personality which is 5% Amiable or Creative and some split of 95% Direct Driver and Analytical.

    So at lunch I brought this up to him and he confirmed that people compartmentalism personalities all the time. He actually said, “you look like you played some ball… I am sure that on the court you were extremely competitive… I (mike) was a boxer and very much the same way, but after I would always joke around with the opponent and go grab a beer with him.”

    Not that anyone here is interested, but I just found it fascinating how different I am in my face-to-face dealings than how my blogging persona comes across.

  60. Dustin, I was only responding to his comment calling me “lover.”

    Yes, Harvard, you’re nothing but a victim. (rolleyes)

  61. OMG, Laffy. You slithery lying piece of miserableness. Dustin took off the comments because of your offensive remarks. Then again, they’re almost always offensive. This time you just took it to a new level that was even more rancid your typical. I believe you said something about a “Closet Queen” before I made that “lover” remark in the concluding goodbyes of my follow-up post. It was Dustin’s choice to remove any of it. I merely agreed with his reasoning after the fact. I didn’t complain about it via a personal e-mail exchange with Dustin and could care less about your homophobic and anger management issues. There was already plenty of evidence of such in your exchanges with Chet and Geoff before I ever entered into this thread.

    As I said, it’s nothing new for you:

    You want to brag how Jordy did against Purdue and Illinois, two teams that suck? LOL!! Ummmmmmmmm, ok. You go girl.

    And Chet, it sure is funny you’re crying about “me” throwing out insults when it’s your boyfriend Geoff doing it non-stop.


    Now, go blow him some more kisses while bragging you predicted I’d call you a name for being an idiot.

    You leave a lot of despicable droppings when you’re on a thread. If Dustin has no problem with you calling people morons, idiots, or retards, do you think it’s shocking to me that you would interpret their passivity as your justification to go full tilt, carte blanche, and show just how much classier you can be?

    Revisit Dustin’s comments directed at you:

    You went over the line at the end there. You know what I mean, so I’m not going to re-address it. You’re better than that.

    Now, by being a lying sack of _______, you have disproved his final attempt to lift you from your own muck.

  62. I even tried to play nice with him (it’s a weakness) but he IS a little piece of excrement.

    Here’s my suggestion. Ignore him. He’ll go away. It’s 100% effective if you’re consistent.

  63. What IU fans would comment on if Purdue called their program
    “The Movement”? I think Patterson came up the tag.

    I think we’re stuck but .. The S Curves?

  64. Harvard–And I brought up “Closet Queen” because you’re the only dude I know that obsesses over women’s eyelashes.

    I didn’t throw out a single insult until they were directed my way first. So wipe away your tears.

    Chet—Baby Jesus cries when you lie. You threw out several attacks at me before I did any towards you. Typical lying hypocrite.

    If Purdue called theirs The Movement, IU fans would be bringing up things involving our bowels. The term is almost as dumb as “Boiler Up.”

  65. HfH, I am with Chet, Laffed-at’s remarks simply have not been important enough to be a topic. Deleting his remarks did alter that a little. I vote for ignore.

    Geoff, I’ve been through many similar training/evaluation sessions, seminars and conferences myself. If I wrote down all the parameters they built of me at each one I’d look like 7 or 8 different people. Which means each of these chaps tilts his criteria for his assessment in a different direction. They are all good but not very objective. Pick out 1 or 2 things that got your attention and use them. In the end the only evaluation that counts is results, as you well know. Centorani, I’ve heard that name somewhere.

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