ESPN’s Ford: Watford and Zeller’s draft stock rising after tournament

ESPN’s Chad Ford wrote in an ESPN Insider story that freshman center Cody Zeller and junior forward Christian Watford improved their draft stock with their performances in the NCAA Tournament. Zeller was one of the eight players who improved his stock the most according to Ford, and Watford was one of nine honorable mentions to the list. (The story is subscription only).

Ford kept in line with the conventional wisdom, saying Zeller is unlikely to declare for the draft this year, but Ford has Zeller ranked No. 6 overall on his draft board.

Watford, who averaged 19 points in three tournament games and was named to the NCAA Tournament’s All-South Regional team, is still ranked No. 128 overall by Ford. That still makes it appear unlikely that he would be taken in the two-round, 60-selection draft if he were to decide to declare early and forgo his senior season.

84 comments

  1. This is another example of someone writing speculative puff. Meaningless, totally meaningless garbage and not worth the time it takes to read it.

  2. Podunker – why do you think this is speculative puff?

    Do you read or follow Chad Ford?

    He has unparalleled access to NBA executives when it comes to the draft. He has been the foremost authority on the NBA draft for many years.

    If you – Podunker – had the ability to have 1-on-1 conversations on a daily basis with the decision-makers would the information you passed along to us be speculative puff?

    No, it would highly relative inside information coming directly from the horses’ mouths…

    Why do you think they call it draft “stock”… It’s just like the senators getting richer by making the right moves in the market. They get the info right from the boardrooms and lobbyists and then go invest in the right areas before the rest of us know what the hell is going on.

    This isn’t puff, it’s insider information based on statents made by NBA executives. He does this every year. He may be off by a couple spots in either direction, and there are always guys that get into a workout setting and rise fast or drop out of consideration. But there really are only about 1 or 2 surprises each year, and they aren’t usually on American college players.

  3. If Dustin had daily conversations with Crean and got information that he wasn’t going to play someone because they were injured in practice… Then he reported it here… Would you call that speculative puff that wasn’t worth the blog it was written in?

  4. 128 isn’t so far out of the two rounds considering a couple dozen on Ford’s list ahead of Watford might not be interested in entering or staying in the draft. Think he owes it to himself to at least check things out and see where he stands. Hope he comes back because he’ll be great on next season’s team. If he goes pro, he’s a Hoosier and I’ll follow his career and keep cheering for him wherever he is.

  5. Boomer,
    Noted this in my story today and should’ve had it in my blog. One hurdle Watford faces is that the NCAA cut down on the amount of time players can test the waters before deciding to return. Although players have until about April 29 to declare for the draft, they only have until April 10 to withdraw their names from early entry consideration. So if Watford decides tomorrow he wants to take a shot at it and doesn’t sign an agent, he only has about two weeks of water testing before he has to decide if it isn’t worth it. That change was enacted this year, I believe.

  6. You’re right, DD; the change is new for this year. It’s not hard to figure which side the rule is meant to serve, but I’m sympathetic to it, nonetheless. The old way really messed with players’ class time and colleges don’t really need to be in the business of helping underclassmen leave school early.

    Watford’s seeming hot feet is odd to me. He is the kind of kid who can improve his draft stock considerably by coming back. Then, if he’s willing to play in Europe, as some have indicated, he would increase his value and marketability to a foreign team by staying another year, improving his skills and physique (which do need some work, far as he has come), and riding the fame that comes with what is likely to be a long tournament run, including the chance at a national title. Not to mention, being part of a team that wins ~30 games is really fun.

    It just seems like such an obvious win-win/lose-lose.

    Then there is the fact that when you start college, you’re supposed to graduate. I know that’s not in vogue these days but it really is what is supposed to happen.

  7. With Hollowell being the only one possessing the talents and size to push him, CW will improve even more next season.

  8. Further proof this isn’t speculative puff…

    Chad Ford’s list for 2011:

    – Top 45 players were all drafted
    – 51 of the top 60 were drafted
    – 58 of the top 100 were drafted
    – the only 2 players that were ranked out of the Top 100 and got drafted were foreign centers

    The lowest ranked college players drafted were:

    – #95 Vernon Macklin, a massive physical specimen and athlete who has a defined position
    – #88 Josh Harrelson, another massive man with a defined position.
    – #69 Jon Diebler, finally a wing player. He has an ELITE skill – shooting, but he’s playing in Greece…

    As Boomer insinuated, this list will be refined over time as we get closer to the draft and have a better idea who’s staying and who’s going, but even if 40 players listed ahead of him drop out, and he decides to stay and improves his rating by 20 spots by having good workouts… That still puts him around #68. So he would still have an extremely poor chance of being drafted and almost no chance of making a team.

  9. I’ll have to check this in terms of Watford’s academic status. We discussed it when I did the feature but I forgot the specifics. But he might be on track to graduate in May. Again, not certain of that, but even if he doesn’t, he’s pretty far along, so it’s not like leaving early would prevent him from getting a degree in the very near future.

  10. Dustin:

    Off topic, and perhaps something discussed elsewhere, but its about time for a new poll. Maybe suggestions from the readers of the Scoop? Some possibilities, just for idle questions to kick around:

    — What will IU’s pre-season ranking be next year?
    — With 14 players and 13 scholarships, who is most likely to not be on the roster next year?
    — Which of the incoming freshman is most likely to start?

  11. How about, “How fast will Calipari have to give up this Final Four spot like he did his others due to cheating?”

  12. I say we steer clear of who should leave the program. Let the coaches take care of that type of business. Some of these players and their families read these boards, and that would be all speculation anyway.

  13. Harvard – please don’t completely disregard logic… What is your response to post #10 above?

  14. Docdave,I take your point, but the question wasn’t “who should go”, as though we were voting someone off the island, it was, “who won’t be around”, which is the biggest single question facing the program right now. It is the kind of things sports fans talk about, speculative though it may be.

    Separately, a better question than “which freshman will start” would be “which freshman will have the biggest impact?” I personally don’t believe any of them will start, certainly not initially, but several of them will see meaningful playing time. This is also a speculative question, but lots of fans like to think about it as they anticipate next year.

  15. I’ve been more than a little lazy on the poll question.

    Docdave, I’m actually pretty sure the players and their families don’t read these boards. I would’ve heard about it if they did. Plus, reading your own press clippings is pretty crazy, reading the message boards and comments following those stories is pretty much insane.

  16. Zeller will stay. Watford will move on. Remy will transfer. Yogi “Premium Octane” Ferrell will start.

    Geoff- Your post #10, like all your posts, was another example of unparalleled speculative absolute genius.

    Christian Watford will be just fine. He’s a good kid that proved on the big stage he has more fortitude and heart than most this pee receptacle ever gave him credit. He gave us some great memories..What more can we ask?

  17. Dustin, the new rule was put in place last May, I believe. Meant to help coaches know who was leaving before the next round of recruiting closed and to keep student-athletes focused on spring classes, I think. It doesn’t give Watford much time for water-testing as you noted, but it gives him time to get an evaluation and some idea of where he stands. Hope he comes back but mostly I hope he does what is best for him.

  18. You know what Watford has decided? I really don’t give a rat’s ass where he ends up on Ford’s list. He has numerous options before him, and unless you are privy to his thought process, it is pure speculation whether he’ll attempt to play overseas, test the waters the NBA draft and hope for a GM to fall in love, or stay at IU. Do you already have his answer?

    Based on purely a hunch, reinforced by a personal belief that Watford took his “stock” to a level this year(primarily late in the season and the shot heard around the world) that will not be surpassed next year. A lot more pieces coming into the puzzle on our Hoosier team next season..A lot of talent that will likely see our coach divvying up minutes and changing rotations even more than this year…Substitution patterns? Anyone? Geoff? Karen? Hoopsta for Dupstas?)

    99% likelihood he’s not going first or second round in the NBA draft. I get it. I don’t care. I don’t think he’s a Hoosier next year. I still say he takes his 1% chance or plays overseas. There’s money in it. Why not take it when your value is highest?

  19. I always find it funny when we as message board posters think athletes and their families check in regularly to read this stuff.

    Dustin’s right, reading message boards is downright insane for those who are directly involved in the production or the content of the story. Hell, it’s pretty much insane for everyone else too. You want to see human filth? You want to see how advanced and sophisticated we really are behind our grandiose concepts such as “free exchange of ideas”? Just scroll down to the comments on any Yahoo article. You will see that every…single…thread is populated by cowardly anonymous trolls trying to turn the simplest story into an opportunity to project political, racial, and religious hatred.

    Personally I think comment sections for news articles need to end. We were doing just fine 20 years ago when people had to express their opinions of an article by writing a letter to the newspaper, where they were forced to obey the decorum of civil society or have their letter thrown in the trash.

  20. I never proclaimed to have Watford’s answer or know his thought process…

    Personally I’m not sure why someone would decide to forfeit the opportunity to contend for a national championship unless they were in 1 of 3 situations…

    1) lottery guarantee
    2) family financial hardship that cannot wait
    3) terrible and/or unmotivated student

    I believe strongly that I know the answers to 1 & 2. As to #3 I have no idea…

    I too hope Watford does what makes him happy and is best for him.

  21. I thought there was a possibility he’s already very close to completing his degree..? If so, he has his degree to fall back on.

    Why does it take a family hardship case to desire the salary a doctor to play a game you love overseas?

    Talk about pure speculation, as strong as the talent is coming in next year, there is no guarantee the Hoosiers don’t find the same fate as Duke this year. There are no guarantees in the elusive hunt for a banner no matter how stacked the team.

    I still say he moves on..Not because he’s a loser, but to pursue a dream. He can always come back to IU and get his masters degree if things don’t work out..Maybe coach.

  22. Geoff, sorry man. I did not mean to offend you. I had no idea you found value in Chad Ford’s information.

    I’ll be real honest. Although I believe the best athletes in the world play in the NBA, I have no interest in NBA basketball. I NEVER watch NBA BB, EVER! I don’t watch the NBA finals and I could care less who wins. I’ve been to numerous NBA games, and I admit that it is entertaining to watch these incredible athletes perform at such a high level, but otherwise, the games are meaningless. And the relaxation on the rules, or call it the disregard for the rules, makes it something other than basketball. I consider it “athletic entertainment.”

    I love High School and college basketball and I watch a ton of it. Although the college game seems to be on the slippery slope, moving closer and closer to the NBA game every year, college basketball is still much better than the NBA. An average college game has more excitement and more passion than any NBA game I’ve seen in decades.

    So, while Chad Ford’s speculation may be of value to people who follow the NBA, it’s puff to me. By the way, although I love NFL football, I consider all the NFL Draft “experts” to be speculative puff masters too. It is speculative, and it is puff. But there is nothing wrong with it if that’s young thing.

    Apologies.

  23. Podunker- BINGO! We have a winner. And the more the NBA infiltrates the college game, the more it destroys it.

  24. Because the money will be in Europe the next year Harvard, but he’ll never have another opportunity to play for a NCAA title.

    I never came close to saying or insinuating that IU will win a title next year, just that they clearly have an opportunity considering their performance the year with the additions of the Movement.

    It’s FAR more speculative to think that Watford will go to Europe next year than stay at IU.

    If you were to poll all the juniors from the top 20 teams and ask them to choose between:

    A) forego your senior season and go to Europe to play for $500,000

    B) stay for your senior season with a 50% chance of winning a conference title and a 5% chance of winning a national title, and THEN go to Europe to play for $500,000/yr

    What percentage do you think would choose option A?

  25. The thing I took from Ford’s article was just how high he has Zeller now. Looks like #6 overall. Pretty much everyone agrees Zeller will be back next year and I’m in that group. That being said, if he just slightly improves next year that will probably get him into the top 3 picks. At that point, regardless of how IU does in his sophomore year, Zeller will almost be force to enter the NBA draft. It would be foolish to pass up top 3 overall money and risk returning to school for injury. You can always come back and get your degree. A top 3 pick just isn’t going to improve his draft position enough to justify the risk of coming back to school.

    Coming into this season I had high hopes for Zeller. I anticipated he would stay at least 3 years and get his degree in that time and then go pro. Right now I’m thinking next year will be it. Believe me when I say I am in no way happy to make this prediction. I hope I am wrong, but the best guess I have is that we have a one year window with Zeller.

    Watford would be foolish to enter the draft with such a small chance of getting drafted. If he came back to IU and performed on a consistent basis as a senior, then it is certainly feasible that he could sneak into being a late 1st or early 2nd round pick. He really improved his rebounding tenacity toward the end of the year and if he continues that momentum into next season it would seem to me that he could really improve his draft prospects.

    It will also be interesting to see if VO thinks about going pro after next season. If he improves again this summer I could easily see his game translating well at the pro level. That improvement needs to come in the form of developing a 18+ foot jumper with consistency and limiting his turnovers. If he can improve those two areas the NBA will certainly be calling on him as one of those combo guard types that can either be a PG or SG or the first guard off the bench.

  26. Podunker – that’s all very fair. I too find the NBA increasingly difficult to watch, even my Celtics. It is basically impossible to watch except for the first 2 weeks of the regular season and then in the playoffs because of the amount of heart and urgency the games are played with.

    However, if someone is extremely accurate, based on extremely relevant information, and able to produce results with a high degree of success year after year why would you dismiss the information as “speculative” or “puff” – it just doesn’t seem to fit the definition…

    If I tell you I’m going to drive to the mall… And 24 of the last 25 times I told you I was going to drive to the mall I did… Then you go tell someone else that I’m going to the mall… Is that speculative puff or probably some pretty reliable information that you are passing along?

  27. Beard – you’re absolutely right about Zeller. The other point in there is that next year’s draft class isn’t considered quite as strong as this years right now. So that would cement his status even more.

    I agree on Dipo as well. I’ve said this before, so excuse me if you feel it’s redundant, but Dipo reminds me exactly of Tony Allen – 6’5″ super-athletic wing defender who can occasionally score double figures, get to the line, and every once in a while knock down a jumper. To me they are twins.

  28. You could get in a bad accident going to the mall(Not that I would ever want that to happen, but sh*t does happen)…and Watford could blow out a knee becuase he’s not getting enough playing time and he’s not loose while making a quick stop or hard cut.

    Take the money now while your stock will probably never be higher rather than risk less playing time, blow out a knee, and end up with an eye patch in a ditch somewhere.

  29. Unless Oladipo finds a jump shot, he’ll never sniff the NBA. Give that kid a jumper to go along with the rest his skills and he’s likely in Ford’s top 60.

  30. Harvard – so again your argument is “there’s an exception to every rule”

    Tony Allen doesn’t have much of a jump shot, but he does have a starting spot on a playoff team and a $3+ million contract.

  31. much of a jump shot..? Oladipo has no jump shot. Every time he puts it up you can tell in the body language he doesn’t’ believe it’s going in(much like Jeremiah Rivers).

    Don’t get me wrong, I love the kid, but I don’t think it’s that easy to find a confident stroke at a development stage your third year of college. It’s not anything the Hoosiers will need from him, so he’ll have to develop it outside of game situations in a Hoosier uniform.

  32. Harvard I think you are right in that it is not so easy to find a jump shot after age 20 when you have been what you are as a basketball player for so long. That being said I am sure there are examples of guys who have done it. Jason Kidd comes to mind. The guy couldn’t hit the ocean from a boat when he was in college and early on in his pro game. But now he is a very competent 3 point shooter. I realize the comparison is much different bc Kidd was an elite passer and pure PG where VO will not be a guy who plays much point in the NBA.

    I do like Geoff’s Tony Allen comparison a lot. VO certainly has pro athleticism and it appears he cares about defense and is willing to work hard. If he puts that effort into a jump shot (it doesn’t have to be NBA 3 point range but it needs to be close to college 3 range) then he will probably be able to be a late 1st round pick next year if he would choose to test that waters. I do really like VO a lot, but losing him and Watford after next year is fairly easy to replace with Patterson and Hollowell. There is no Zeller replacement (maybe Trey Lyles can be that good but that is still a few years off). Thus, it is my opinion that IU’s national championship hoped for the next few years need to come while Zeller is still wearing candy stripes.

  33. I don’t see a huge flaw in the mechanics of Dipo’s shot, and he’s a pretty reliable FT shooter. I think its more a function of what he’s been asked to do and/or been able to get away with to this point in his career (mainly HS, but college as well) because of superior athleticism.

    I’d guess next year you’ll see a noticeable improvement, based on how hard he worked last off-season and the improvement we saw in his overall game and confidence.

  34. Boomer-

    I’m always willing to leave the door open. I was trying to fool myself it was barely ajar for Watford, but I came to my stubborn senses(thanks to Geoff) and revisited a reality convinced it is all but closed…Something about “being stuck in his body” is the blockade I have no winning argument no matter how many other skills Watford can bring.

    Back to Oladipo….A jump shot is not just being parked at the perimeter…I’m talking about hitting something on the move as well. If Oladipo possessed the touch to drain either variety with some consistency, it would seem from my very novice vantage point this NBA stuff, he would be driving up his “stock” considerably.

  35. Geoff- I think he guides the shot too much which can create a hesitation, minutely slower extension, and a tendency to get away from a natural breaking of the wrist. Possibly caused by following the ball(the old wishing it all the way to the rim syndrome) more than a trusted focused to the target. When you get in a shooting zone, you’re never thinking of mechanics and rarely focus tightly in on the rim. It’s all rather a big blur and instinctual through repetition.

  36. I agree Harvard, although I haven’t closely broken down his mechanics. I just think that based on his lack of a fatal flaw the things you mentioned are more easily overcome.

    At this point in my life, against most of the competition I play against, I am relegated to the role of distributor and shooter. I am a pretty consistent 3-pt shooter, but like everyone I have my slumps. If a slump has set in a little bit, I have a tendency to think a little more, aim a little more, and rely on feel a little less – it’s uncomfortable. Then for whatever reason at some point I start knocking down shots again and all those weird feelings go away.

    I observed Dipo feel a little too comfortable from the perimeter for a stretch in the middle of the season, and then when the shots weren’t falling I observed the things you are talking about. I just think an off-season of guys respecting his first step and him getting to hone his jumper under less relative stress is going to show next season.

  37. Hamas Hillbilly shows once again what a f-ing idiot he is.

    Jordan didn’t develop his jump shot until he hit the pros.

    If I ripped Victor as much as Hamas Hillbilly is, he’d be SCREAMING and CRYING and GOING CRAZY how much I “HATED” the guy and be DEMANDING I be kicked off here while FOAMING AT THE MOUTH and SLOBBERING all over himself.

    Hitting something on the move?

    I hate to break it to feces-for-brains, but the kid just completed his sophomore year in college.

    He’s not expected to be an NBA All-Star right now.

    Sure is odd how he sticks up for the white guard, Jordy, while SHREDDING the black one.

    Racist.

  38. Zeller probably already has his body insured for enough money to live comfortably for the rest of his life. If he doesn’t he needs to call Lloyd’s of London, or whoever does that sort of thing these days, and buy the biggest policy he can afford.

    …and that may be a pretty good reason he’ll be a college student for four years. As Andrew Luck, Tim Duncan, and many others have said, you can only be a collegiate athlete once. Not that he was ever a candidate for a million dollar contract, but one of my sons gave up a couple years of eligibility and it haunts him to this day.

  39. Laffy..Couple of days ago you offered $100.00 bet that IU would be winning the big one in one – two yrs. Thinking your heart is in the right place but odds are you will lose that money. Two reasons; 1) the refs. Look at Cody with 2 calls in 2 plays. Followed by VO and Davis. The whole game changes. Than in the second half, no blood no call. OSU game Craft was hooked by an arm around his neck and taken to the floor. Ref made no-call motion. How many times was Cody thrown to the floor in the B1G? By the time a coach/player adjust they could be on the bench. 2) Injury – VO is good example. Every drive to the basket he hits the floor. He is tough but the odds are he will break sometime. Than Creek with his mis-step on the stairs.

    I hope Crean plays everyone next yr, even if that means we lose a game every one and then. Think NC with their point guard (s).

    Next yr standing. IMO it would be good for IU to be ranked in the 14-18 place. Less pressure and they seem to perform better as underdogs.

    And now I’m out of here. Month in Indy followed by a month in NC and northern Georgia,, than another month of Fl than two months in Utah/Arizona and Colorado. Hope to get back to Indy in Oct/Nov and get to see a couple of non-conference games before heading to Fl. As long as the bike keeps rolling.

    You all take care.

  40. Have fun Ron. My neck of the woods (NC & northern GA) is a great place to spend some time. I’m a big fan of Utah/Az and CO as well. I met my wife while living in CO.

  41. Oladipo will be back next season with a jump shot and a better handle. He knows what he needs to work on and when he works, he accomplishes. End of story – he’ll have a jump shot next season.

    Don’t have any idea what Watford will do but after watching Creek and Jones this year, he absolutely knows that players can have career-changing injuries at the drop of a hat. He has to add that to his pro and con list for staying or going. We’ll know April 10.

  42. I repeat…I said Oladipo has every skill that would probably put him in Ford’s top prospect list except his jump shot. That’s tearing the kid to shreds? Did you read any my comments all season that spoke of how invaluable he was to our team?

    In addition to nearly every player on our roster(minus one I thought was a bit of a detriment to the synergy of the team), I defended Watford on this blog when others were saying he had no heart and no game. I was a huge advocate of Remy Abell(verify it with Dustin)before he was ever offered a scholarship to play at Indiana. My opinions have zero to do with the color of skin.

    You are a complete a$$hole, Laffy. Your statements are hate-driven and your accusations beyond despicable. Pus-filled boil looks attractive compared to what is festering in you sick and rotting soul.

  43. I think there may not be moms and dads on here, but cousins and neighbors and roommates. Talking about that crap starts unnecessary negativity in the program. Just my opinion.

    I think VO getting better ball control and a consistent pull up jumper is what the NBA needs. He will accomplish both in the next couple of years. He is that hard of a worker.

  44. Oladipo will be a first round pick by the time he leaves IU. Bet money on it. He has potentially Nate Robinson-type game but with better defense.

    Oh, and he will also be at the very least a second team all American if he stays two more years.

  45. Let’s all hope Laffy works out his anger issues…and Harvard’s issues. Shoot, my issues, too (sex addict).

    Something that no one has mentioned is the ability of CTC to light a fire under CWat and turn him into an absolute beast during their tourney run.

    Way to go, Coach.

  46. NIT way too challenging for the Huskies…

    Something that no one has mentioned this season was the uncanny ability of CTC to light a fire under Rob Wilson and turn him into an absolute beast during their tourney with us.

    Way to go, Coach! What Bo Ryan could not do in four years…

  47. Sorry, Hamas Hillbilly, but I do not read every word of your drivel.

    You are, by FAR, one of THE DUMBEST posters I’ve EVER met.

    And that is REALLY saying something.

    I also think you’re a total hypocrite. Nutjob. And racist.

    The fact a klansman fruit cake like you doesn’t like me is THE biggest compliment I could get.

    Thanks.

    Try not to wash your white hood with your confederate flag so the colors don’t run.

  48. Wow, Laffy. I didn’t think it was possible for you to go any lower. When someone is as troubled as you, it creates a feeling of sadness more than anything else. There must be a reason you harbor such anger. I hope you find a way out..I truly hope you find a way to resolve it.

  49. Harvard, again, for the 641st time, why do you respond to anything Laffy posts?

    Is it worth reading?

    Is it worth responding to?

    Do you learn anything from his posts?

    Is he, in any way, worth engaging him in any interaction?

    The more you respond, the more he posts.

  50. The only “anger” I have is towards racists rednecks like you.

    THANK YOU for thinking so lowly of me.

    Seriously.

    The LAST person I want ANY respect from is a raging racist like you.

    So, have they made you Grand Dragon yet with your CONSTANT defending of Jordy while CRUCIFYING Victor?

    Your fellow Klansmen must be sooooooooo proud of you.

  51. Is there an internet equivalent to putting two students’ desks at the other side of the room? Because if so, someone fill me in.
    Harvard, pointing out Jordan Hulls’ lack of proficiency at on-the-ball defense does not make one part of a vast international East Coast-based conspiracy to hold Indiana basketball down. Laffy, pointing out that Victor Oladipo’s jump shot is suspect doesn’t make one a racist and doesn’t amount to a crucifixion. They are good players with flaws, a fact that is pretty much plainly obvious to just about everybody.
    Please, both of you. Just stop.

  52. I’m just giving that idiot a taste of his own medicine.

    If anyone says anything REMOTELY negative about Jordy, Hamas Hillbilly goes BERSERK over it.

    And yet, he has no problem going after Victor non-stop.

    So, I was just throwing his own tactics in his face to get a rise out of him.

    The easiest person to troll is a troll.

  53. You all are posting something that will not happen—Christian Watford will NOT leave after his junior year. he started greatness and he’s going to leave greatness with banner 6 hanging. Tom Crean will talk a lot to him and and he will realize what’s more important banner 6 or maybe not even get drafted…..hmmmm

  54. Boy, do I ever agree with Chet, Harvard! I’ve been wondering the identical thought; why do you answer any of Laffy’s comments? He just drags you into whatever problem he has and succeeds in transfering it to you.

    Last week I made the mistake of trying to defend TC’s right to voice beliefs he has about God (and, admittedly, my own freedom to believe. He quickly drew me into whatever beyond-anger issues he has. It was absolutely ridiculous (including me), I just decided ‘enough!’… and stopped. At some point, he quit. The only objective of the irrational is to draw all others into irrationality and obsession.

    During this last week I noticed the dialogue you two had, thought a couple of times to to defend you; but, then thought “no, he’ll use any comment to restart his abuse, make this blog distasteful impossible to enjoy. On the other hand, if ignored totally he’ll get tired of writing to himself.

    I actually thought he was leaving when no one responded to any of his posts in the early parts of this thread…but then he used his favorite play, …attack you personally …and you rescued him by answering him. (Read #9, # 13…completely ignored; then you are having a 2-way back and forth with Geoff and in #43 he ‘pulls you back in’ when you give in to his worthless babble and respond ‘.

    As Bob Knight used to say…you put yourself in a position to win; now you’ve got to win it HfH! Chet is absolutely right (he has told you this before)…do all of us a favor…don’t respond! whatever he does…don’t respond. Unless, of course, you enjoy his insults. (Now, this is the last comment because it will no doubt touch his buttons, draw him into more babble when I prefer he simply disappear.)

    I like debate, I like the dialogue of disagreement, especially about the parts of our lives that get drawn in because we simply enjoy them; but, blogging has to be a positive communication and sharing with others in the sense that it leaves something worthwhile thinking about.

  55. Damn, talk about hypocrisy/projection.

    Hamas Hillbilly is a COMPLETE FRUITCAKE who goes INSANE on here and you cry about ME while slobbering all over HIM?

    Yowza.

    If you “like debate”, why do you defend that kkklown when ALL HE DOES is NAMECALL if you disagree with him?

    Well, and cry about “pus-filled boils.”

    (rolleyes)

    The LAST thing Hamas Hillbilly is “debate.”

    He just throws out insult after insult after insult if you disagree with him.

    Something you WHINE about “me” doing.

  56. Geoff, sorry it took so long to return to the discussion. In response to your points made in post #31;

    You wrote, “However, if someone is extremely accurate, based on extremely relevant information, and able to …….” I don’t see anything Mr. Ford writes on this subject to be “extremely relevant information.” First of all, it’s only relevant if you’re into the NBA Draft or follow NBA basketball closely. Secondly, it’s not really “information.” It’s speculation, or opinion, or a well educated guess about possible future events. Since there are so many variables involved, and since the publishing of the list can have a direct impact on the behavior of the people involved in the publication, I personally don’t find it to be of any value. In fact, it may be harmful to certain young men that are influenced by Mr. Ford’s projections. I wonder if any young men have declared for the draft, forfeited their remaining college eligibility as a result of Mr. Ford’s projections, and ended up without a job in the NBA and without a college degree?

    The second point regards your comment, ” If I tell you I’m going to drive to the mall… And 24 of the last 25 times I told you I was going to drive to the mall I did… Then you go tell someone else that I’m going to the mall… Is that speculative puff or probably some pretty reliable information that you are passing along?” In response, I’d say you made my point about “puff” for me. That information, or projection, is not really worthy of being published, or even being passed along to the masses. It’s not news, therefore it is, in my opinion, a great example of “puff.” Who cares if you’re driving to the mall? Who cares, that based on previous stats, I can predict that there is a high probability that you will drive to the mall when you tell me you’re going to drive to the mall? Mr. Ford might as well write a story about about Geoff driving to the mall. It would have as much news value as the puff piece he publishes on the likelihood of college basketball players getting drafted into the NBA. To me, it’s not news. But it’s not a big deal, either.

  57. Podunker… Grrrrr…. The article is relavant to the topic of the NBA draft. If you don’t care about the NBA draft or the article then what was the point of making the comment about speculative puff in the first place? Obviously you wanted to let it be known that you didn’t think it was relevant or you didn’t think it was accurate – one of the two.

    Now, back to the point about it being speculative. HE IS NOT SPECULATING WHAT THE THOUGHTS AND OPINIONS OF THE NBA SCOUTS AND EXECS ARE!!!!!

    He is asking them point blank and they are telling him point blank. That is information, not speculation.

    “what are your thoughts and plans on X…?”

    “MY thoughts and plans on X are…”

    “Here is what the people making the decisions on X told me they are planning on doing…”

    That IS NOT SPECULATION!!!!!

    It clearly IS news because there are at least 100’s of 1000’s of people who read about and care about the NBA draft. Just because you don’t think it’s news doesn’t mean it isn’t. Is Dustin writing a piece on IU’s potential recruits news? It is to me and you even if a Gonzaga Lacrosse fan could care less. Obviously Dustin thought it was news (and he’s a journalist…).

    Lastly, anyone who is in the process of determining their draft status is also in direct contact with NBA teams and has advisors even if they haven’t hired agents. However, Mr. Ford’s list has been extremely accurate in the past (because it isn’t speculative) and therefore isn’t a bad place for a guy to look to see if the info he’s getting from his “advisors” jives with what the NBA decision-makers are saying.

    The people at the top of the list get drafted. The people at the bottom don’t. The American college players not on the list don’t get drafted at all. If you ain’t on the list it’s probably a damn good idea to withdraw IF you care about your college eligibility.

    I will gladly concede this is “speculative” if you can tell me how or why….

  58. My how our expectations change. We weren’t expecting anything this year. Next year we were expecting an NCAA bid.

    But we had a great year and made the Sweet Sixteen. Now folks are talking about a championship next year.

    I hope that no one accompanies such lofty expectations with criticisms of CTC. He has us living the dream.

  59. Dustin’s right, reading message boards is downright insane for those who are directly involved in the production or the content of the story. Hell, it’s pretty much insane for everyone else too. You want to see human filth? You want to see how advanced and sophisticated we really are behind our grandiose concepts such as “free exchange of ideas”? Just scroll down to the comments on any Yahoo article. You will see that every…single…thread is populated by cowardly anonymous trolls trying to turn the simplest story into an opportunity to project political, racial, and religious hatred.

    Very telling words, HT..I am thoroughly stunned an attempt in comparing any war of words on this blog(most of which are relatively harmless) to what just happened here. It started months ago with endless homophobic references, escalated to references about knifing people, shooting people for their opinions, and now, the racist statement.

    How casual and vicious an affront to compare the most outlandish comments I’ve made on this blog as having same intent to be deserving a taking a chair in the other corner the same room. Whatever wild conspiratorial thoughts I have held of certain national journalists having what I considered inherent bias in their reporting because of being closely tied to east coast alma maters/favored programs that have always competed with Indiana for consideration a certain “elite” status in the game of basketball, has no business being compared to a personal attack that casually lumps my off-the-cuff remarks a jump shot to the history of horrors committed in the quest of racial hatred.

    How despicable to even put a basketball discussion on that playing field. A comment about a kid’s jump shot comparing me to heartless beasts that kill in the name of supreme belief a shade of skin.

    It’s completely appalling to allow those words and accusations on this page; the trivialization of prejudice and hatred beyond any evil compare.

    If this is the Scoop classroom of callus disregard now desired, consider me no longer enrolled. You could have stopped this long ago, Dustin. You knew where he would take it, and it was your choice not to put a stop to it. If anything you encouraged him. I am stunned you let it go on and get to this. I really did love chatting here. I am an egotistical blowhard that often gets caught up in the competition of opinions, but I truly have never meant to hurt anyone. I feel regrets some of my attacks on Hoosier players. I feel regrets attacking you, Geoff, HT, and many others. What is the use now? I’m sorry there was something many you found so distasteful about me that you allowed me to be compared to men in hoods that hang families from trees. For all the tough and unfair words I’ve ever directed toward fellow bloggers or the journalists of Scoop, I felt remorse in the after moments my quick and unfair tongue. Take care.

    I’ll certainly miss most the decent friends I met here.

  60. Oh, go to hell, Hamas Hillbilly….. and take your VICTIM act and SHOVE it.

    You are THE worse name-caller on here.

    By MILES.

    And it looks like I hit a nerve comparing you to KKKlansmen.

    Well, stop CRUCIFYING a black player while giving a COMPLETE FREE PASS to the white one and it won’t happen.

    Idiot.

    Now, go cry to mommy how you were “picked on” so she can tell you your the bestest ever.

    Yawn.

  61. Harvard: for what it’s worth, I was making a general observation about article comments; you were not the target of my remark. I actually see a sincerity in your posts, an honesty, a willingness to bear it all, that I don’t see elsewhere. Actually the Scoop has lots of those types; people who stand behind their name and their ideas. Geoff. Clarion. JPat. Podunker. Tsao. Heck, even Laffy is willing to own his online persona to some extent; an hour or two looking around at other news-related sites will leave you with the conclusion that the Scoop is a pretty ‘real’ discussion room as far as the internet is concerned.

    On another note: if anyone is interested in a good read about the UL-UK rivalry with a personal touch, one of my favorite current sportswriters, Jerry Brewer, is an African American dude from Kentucky who writes for the Seattle Times. The guy is an absolute dynamo with the pen:

    http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/jerrybrewer/2017861155_brewer29.html

  62. Here is Hamas Hillbilly in a nutshell: He can dish it out but he can’t take it.

    He’s nothing but a bully.

    If you don;t agree with him , he LAUNCHES into personal attacks trying to browbeat you.

    There is no “debate” at all.

    None.

    Just an air raid of personal insults.

    And the SECOND you give it back to him, he starts SOBBING and playing VICTIM and whimpering to Dustin, “You could have stopped this.”

    Right.

    By telling that a-hole to knock his crap off in the first place.

    I made it a point NOT to name-call when I came to this place.

    And Hamas Hillbilly would not let up.

    And it’s not just towards me.

    He trashes ANYONE that dares disagree with the “ALMIGHTY GREAT HILLBILLY.”

    Screw him.

    If he wants to stop the insults, and victim act, I’ll stop going after him.

    If not, then I’ll continue to give to him EXACTLY what he gives to others.

  63. Harvard, it’s really not that difficult to ignore him. Shoot, most everybody on here does. Whenever I see posts with lots of caps spewing hatred I just scroll past them. I haven’t read any of his crap in, well, pretty much forever.

    You won’t miss a thing. It’s easy. Really.

  64. Hamas Hillbilly isn’t going anywhere.

    He’s just an attention-wh0re.

    He’s used to people backing down from his BARRAGE of insults so he has to play VICTIM when it’s thrown back in his face so you’ll all beg him to stay and tell him how “great” he is.

    Funny how you all fall for it……again.

  65. I continue to be mystified as to how anyone can be offended by any comment or series of comments written on this blog.

    If your intent is to offend, you will probably attract bullies (what goes around comes around). If you’re not trying to offend, then no one can really bully you in response. They may argue, or they misunderstand your comment, but that can easily be remedied by another post clarifying you intent.

    Geoff and I disagree about what constitutes speculative puff, but I enjoyed our exchange and respect his arguments. Civil debate is healthy. But the operative word is civil. I do not come on this site looking for opportunities to offend or bully people. And I’ll suggest that if you are one of those people who do, in the end you’ll receive a lot more abuse than you deliver, kind of like the day, at age seven or eight, when I first decided to fight back and broke the nose of the neighborhood bully. After that, all the people he had bullied began to deliver payback.

    Come on guys, it’s just IU sports. Relax and enjoy.

  66. Both Podunker and Chet are absolutely right. What we are all seeking is a group of friends that cares about the Hoosiers and do so with interest and passion, whether on one side or the other of any issue. Beyond tht, there is no joy in refuting insults, or taking this down to a level where enjoyment is impossible.

    Each has to decide to what extent we achieve this on the blog. And, decide whether to stay or leave. As long as there are Chets, Podunkers, Hoosier Clarions, etc I’m glad to stay.

  67. Then why in the WORLD are you CRYING about ME while SLOBBERING all over Hillbilly?

    That guy throws out more insults than ANYONE….and it’s not even CLOSE.

    And for awhile, I completely ignored him…..and he STILL attacked me.

    And you idiots were SILENT….until I gave it back to him.

    And then, you cried how BAD “I” was.

    Amazing.

    Get bent with your phony out-raqe over me and stick your sermons.

  68. Laffy, sorry to hear you’re so upset. But directing broad generalizing comments toward a group of people invites problems.

    Who are the idiots you are referring to in post #79? Because I have never “cried” about you, or “slobbered” all over Hillbilly. And I have certainly not “cried” about how “bad” you were. Please be more specific in identifying those posters that did those things.

    Sounds like HforH got under your skin some time back. If that’s the case, I’m sorry it upset you. But upping the anti was probably not a good idea. As my Dad used to say, “Nobody ever wins a sh*t slinging contest.”

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