Calipari talks about end of IU-UK series (transcript taken from Louisville Courier-Journal)

John Calipari gave a press conference today in Lexington. Someone asked him about the IU-Kentucky game, and he pretty much went off.

Kyle Tucker of the Louisville Courier-Journal typed up a transcript. You can find the text of the whole press conference here. The transcript of just what was said with regard to IU follows:

ON THE UK-IU SERIES, THE IDEA THAT HE SIMPLY DIDN’T WANT TO GO BACK TO BLOOMINGTON: “I wanted to do what Bobby Knight did. Bobby Knight decided that he thought the series should be neutral. And when it was neutral, the series was huge. Battle of the flags and all those other things. He was the one that made it the first neutral, and I liked the idea because we had to move someone neutral. Someone was going to have to go neutral and it was logical it was them. And then we couldn’t really find a place in Kentucky, so to make it more beneficial to them, we said, ‘Well, we’ll play two years in your state, but we’re not having anything more than two-year contracts because of the flux of our program. We just don’t want to do that.’

“And again, when we schedule, we do it for us. I’m not scheduling for anyone else. (Critics say), ‘Well schedule for America!’ I’m not scheduling for America. I’m scheduling for us. You know, I like the fact that in 1948, Adolph Rupp played eight neutral games. I like the fact that Rick Pitino played five and six neutral games and so did Tubby Smith. It prepares you for the NCAA Tournament.

“The one thing that’s changed: we’re one of the few – if not the only program – that can go to football stadiums regular season. ‘Well, why would you do it?’ Because we can. ‘Cause we can, and no one else can. ‘Well, you shouldn’t do that, ’cause it’s different. It makes the purists mad.’ I’m not scheduling for the purists. I’m scheduling for my basketball team. And so, neutral games are good. Now, we’re going to play a home game to get us ready, nonconference, for the SEC Tournament. We’ll play a road game that’ll get us ready for the SEC league play. We’re going to have 18 league games, which include Missouri and Texas A&M, two NCAA Tournament teams, added to our schedule, and we have a Big East game.

“So what we’re doing is what’s right for our program, and like I told Tommy (Crean), ‘Tommy, move on. It’s done. We’re good. I’m good, you’re good. You have your schedule, we have our schedule.’ I know our schedule’s tough. If you want to compare ‘em to anybody else’s schedule, do it. It’s funny, and I said this before: I don’t know why everybody thought we had to play everybody and no one else did. See, they only played us, they only played us, they only played us, they only played us, and we’re supposed to play all of you. Why don’t you play each other? ‘Because.’ What do you mean, because? Because, because, because. What are you talking about? We play. We’re scheduling for us. I’m not scheduling for anybody else. And it’s not mean. It’s real.

“The greatest thing right now – it isn’t about compromising. Again, Indiana, we offered a two-year schedule in their state. ‘Well, you didn’t do what they wanted to do.’ OK, then we won’t play. We’re offering you two games in your state. It wasn’t mad or mean or nothing like that. We got North Carolina back on the schedule. We’re in dialogue with Duke right now, playing the game. I want to play a tripleheader so bad; you have no idea how I want to do a tripleheader now. Men and women on a Friday and the football team on a Saturday and just overrun a city. I don’t know what city it would be, but you will be overrun by people.”

ON WHETHER HE’S TALKED TO OTHER COACHES ABOUT HIS IDEAS: “Yeah. They know we can do it, and they’re like, ‘You should.’ We’ve already talked to a couple teams about tripleheaders.”

ON WHETHER HE’S TALKED TO FOOTBALL COACH JOKER PHILLIPS ABOUT THAT: “He just said, ‘Please don’t make it Notre Dame.’ ”

ON THE CHALLENGE OF SCHEDULING A TRIPLEHEADER: “You’d have to do it in November, and both teams would have to have an open date. And you’d have to have the stadium available, and you’d have to have the stadium available in advance. It’s not easy. If it were easy, everybody would be playing tripleheaders.”

ON THE IDEA THAT NO UK/IU HURTS COLLEGE BASKETBALL: “We could have played it. I don’t know why we’re not playing it. We could have been in the Lucas Oil playing the game. I don’t know what happened.”

ON NEUTRAL GAMES NOT BEING FAIR TO INDIANA STUDENTS: “They’re only two hours away. Are they that poor? They couldn’t get to that building? Our students are going. I mean, ours would go up there.

And again, I’m not scheduling for anybody else. I’m scheduling for us. You guys would say, ‘Well, it’s about the regular season, not about postseason.’ You think that’s true here? You can write the story all you want. Do you think that’s true? I mean, do you think that’s true? You lose to Louisville and North Carolina and win the national title, how they feeling?

“Again, life has changed for you all (in the media). It’s changed. I’ll put it this way, for you all: Five years ago? It ain’t five years ago. Now, if you didn’t change, you’re going by the wayside. That’s what’s happening in your business. Guess what’s happening in college athletics? The same thing. In basketball, it’s changing, and we want to be ahead of the curve. We want to be doing things. And if (you’re) not able to do it with certain schools, then you do it with other schools, and that’s how we’re doing it.

“It wasn’t, like I said, I understand the, we were just saying it. I sat with Coach (Joe B.) Hall at dinner last night. He said what Coach Rupp did was play eight neutral games around the country to make the program a national program, and from ’48 on, that’s what it’s been. He did that. I looked at him and said, ‘It was non-traditional, wasn’t it?’ Coach Hall said, yes it was. When you do things and they’re going to be a little different, you’re preparing your pictures different than everybody is in what you’re trying to do. The greatest thing on the social media is that I can keep everybody informed on how I’m thinking, not what you think I’m thinking. They know what I’m thinking and what I’m doing, because I tell them, ‘Here’s why I’m doing this.’

“That’s why our fans have been great. They have been great. Now you can write that those fans are mad. Those seven fans are mad. But the fans as a whole are great. They’re fine with what we’re doing. That’s what I said. I’m happy with our schedule, I’m happy with my team right now. I like the team we had. Someone said, blah, blah, blah. We’re doing it because we’re not having nine and 10 and 11 players on our team. My first year, I did. And you know what? We weren’t a great execution team.

“What did I mean by that? We weren’t a great execution team. We were a real good team. We had players but weren’t where we needed to be as a team. It was hard for that team, and we played 10. Then the next year we play six guys. All of a sudden by the end of the year, we’re the best team in the country. Last year, we played seven guys. Best team in the country, obviously, team and players. I like what we have coming back. Again, freshmen, sophomores and a senior. A couple guys that were hurt that will have a chance to show they should be playing or not playing.”

111 comments

  1. I can’t wait to see how Bob Knight responds to that BS, especially coming from Calipari, who Knight has little respect for. How long has it been since Knight was IU’s coach? That’s ancient history and a very thinly veiled excuse to cover up the selfish and arrogant reasons why he killed the series. Classic BS!

    Calipari has no shame and his ego is out of control. As I’ve written before, it’s just a matter of time before his arrogance brings him and the Kentucky BB program crashing down. I for one will celebrate his eventual demise. The man is an egomaniacal ass.

  2. Agreed, Podunker, but you forgot to mention that Calipari also seems to be claiming to be the inheritor of the Spirit of Adolph Rupp. Possibly the most loathsome, dishonest, racist waste of human flesh to ever disgrace the sport of basketball. Nice role model, Cal. The Big Blew Face Plant can’t come soon enough.

  3. Me, too, Podunk. Nothing but after-the-fact rationalizations. About the Rupp comment, I wonder what “neutral sites” looked like in 1948.

  4. Tommy? He refers to Crean as Tommy?

    These guys need to get a room…get their overdosing levels of steroids back down to earth, and give us a damn game.

    Shame on both of these out-of-control millionaires for putting their egos before the players far more loyal to the colors their school. College basketball has truly lost its way with creeps like this getting all the press and cameras.

  5. Calipari has really gotten some heat about his stubbornness, hasn’t he? Notice how defensive he is. It will be funny when his “national” team draws 6-7 thousand in a football stadium in Dallas.

  6. As much as I despise Calipari, I can not equate him to Adolf Rupp. And I do not believe Calipari is a racist, in any way shape or form. No way Calipari, or any other coach, could survive if he had any racism in him. No, he’s an arrogant jerk and a cheater, but I don’t think he’s a racist.

  7. This end does not bother me in the slightest. At this point in time it is almost a non-issue. The only reason Criminallypari wanted to play at a neutral Indiana site(LOS)is for recruiting Hoosier HS ballers. Playing 18 SEC league games is not near as flashy for that purpose.

  8. I think that Ky. should change their names from Wildcats to Roosters. A Rooster will stand in its shit and crow!

  9. HC, I don’t know about that. Those matchups with Ole Miss and now Texas A&M are gonna thrill the kids from Dematha. Must see TV.

    It brings Adolph Rupp’s win record (when he had it)into perspective. He probably wouldn’t have won as many games playing against Indiana high schoolers as he would have in the SEC of the 40s, 50s and 60s. I’m guessing March 19, 1966 was the first time his Mildcats ever faced a black player. He was pretty clear on what he thought about black players, too.

    Adolph Rupp, Joe B. Hall, Eddie Sutton and John Calapari, they are what Kaintuck basketball is all about. Slime. The only D1 basketball program to receive the ‘Death Penalty’ and the only college program to be sanctioned by the NCAA in every decade.

    Then there’s the fact that the university is a joke to begin with.

  10. Podunker, sorry if I seemed to be painting Calipari with too broad a stroke when I reacted to his mention of Rupp. No way would I ever consider Calipari racist – again sorry if I seemed to be implying that. I only found it curious that Calipari would suggest that he was carrying on the “non-traditional” philosophy of Rupp.

  11. I have no problem calling Calipari a racist.

    He sees black players as a means to makes lots of money.

    Period.

    If he truly CARED about those players, he’d stress the importance of education…..not just being a lottery pick.

    A huge percentage of players are broke within a few years.

    Johnny couldn’t care less.

    As long as they are a lottery pick, or go first round, he can brag to the next group he can do the same for them and he can get a fatter check for himself.

  12. Well Chet I do know about that. NO WAY SEC BB = B10 BB when it comes to making a splash for the opponents! There are not enough top level Ktuck HS ballers to fill Criminallypari’s roster so he has to go outside the state. Since there is much talent in Indiana it is much easier for him to get tickets for recruits at LOS than at AH. Walla, large neutral courts are his paramount tool for recruiting and at the expense of his opponents. It isn’t slimy but for sure is calculating the %.
    Rupp’s cultural philosophy was so much about the times we lived in then. What Rupp recognized early on is certainly he wanted to embellish a culture of corruption for the pUKe program.

    What is the weather/temperature in Asheville area during July? My roommate and I may be traveling through(visiting 3-4 days)sometime that month.

  13. Laffy, you’re right about Calipari’s motives. I’m sure that when he sees a 16 year-old Black kid he sees a big $ in short pants. But he would also be happy if that kid chose to stay at KY for 4 years and ‘earn’ that prestigious KY diploma (whatever one of those is worth). But, he recruits kids who have no interest in school and rightly see the KY program for what it is – a semi-pro outfit that has a peculiar requirement that everyone take a few college classes for one semester. He is no more using them than they are using the NCAA as a (relatively low-paid) minor league for a few months while they pretend to go to college. That doesn’t make Calipari a racist – just a particularly slimy player in a shameful yet legal dance between two willing partners.

  14. HC, while summers have gotten warmer we still rarely see 90. Last summer was the first time ever we had more than 4 ninety degree days all summer (we had about 8).

    In July we usually see low to mid 80s during the day and 68-70 at night. Toward the end of the month showers in the afternoon. On top of Mt. Mitchell (20 miles as the crow flies) it never gets above about 72.

    But things are a-changin’.

  15. Crapipari is confused. He is a basketball coach who sees himself as a cult leader. He rambles on like Jim Jones in Guyana. It’s not hard to envision Big Blue Nation all lying around Rupp Arena in a prone position after drinking this jerk’s Kool-Aid.

  16. I have absolutely no idea what the hell people here are talking about… I can’t find a single fault in anything Calipari is saying here. SERIOUSLY!

    Coach Cal owes IU absolutely nothing. He is the current coach of UK. His job is to prepare his team the way he sees best fit to win national championships. That’s what he was hired to do – PERIOD! So if he can schedule UNC and Duke and Baylor, and he gets another tough team in Mizzou every year now, and he can do most of that on his terms, why wouldn’t he?

    If you were the CEO of a public business you’re job is to leverage your strength to the benefit of your shareholders. Well that is exactly what Cal is doing. Make no mistake, college basketball has been a cut throat business for a long, long time. Cal is not an innovator when it comes to turning the screws.

    If you are an IU fan and want to be upset, fine, but it’s pointless. We’ll be fine. UK will run whatever course Cal’s style has in store for them. We’ll find other great games to bring to the IU students. UK will continue to contend until the NCAA catches up with them. Maybe we’ll start the series up again in a couple or few years.

    Cal is not acting scared, disingenuous, dishonest, sneaky, or incompetent when it comes to this particular situation.

    Now, I have to address one other thing… Laffy, it would be an injustice if Cal did not try his best to prepare these players to be high draft picks. The players that are leaving UK early are getting drafted. They aren’t getting bad advice. If you think that staying 3 or 4 years at Kentucky would prepare these players better to not be broke 5 years after they retire… Well I wholly disagree.

    First, you need to maximize your draft stock so you can get the highest slotted rookie contract. Nothing is given after that. Staying in college doesn’t equate to signing a better 2nd contract, which is where the real money is.

    Second, the earlier you start earning the longer you can earn. I firmly believe that very few players benefit from a basketball perspective by staying in college longer. College students get less coaching, practice against worse talent, and have far more obligations to meet. Your physical growth isn’t stunted by leaving college, but you can mature faster physically if you have a personal trainor, personal chef, and access to the best supplements in the world, which aren’t afforded to college students. Generally speaking a player becomes what he is meant to become whether he stays 1 year or 4.

    Third, the phenomenon of players going broke isn’t due to a lack of a college degree. Studying math, and psychology, and geology, and Coaching Basketball 101, 201, etc… doesn’t prepare you for handling millions of dollars, and all the pressures that come from your friends and family when the checks start cashing. A degree won’t give you the experience of how to handle 10 hot-a$$ groupies surrounding you after every game in every city who may have forgot to take their birth control that month. It isn’t going to teach you how to handle seeing the star of your team, say Deron Williams, cruising around in a $250k Phantom on Monday, a Lamborghini on Tuesday, and his Nav on Friday – oh and every night on the road the young, un-married guys are out buying bottles and giving you sh!t if you don’t do the same.

    There is nothing that you will learn or experience in 3 or 4 years of college that will prepare you for that culture. Either you had values deeply instilled in you by your family and you keep good advisors around you, or you didn’t and you don’t.

    The issue is the overwhelming culture they find themselves in, not the lack of a degree.

  17. A couple more things…
    1. College isn’t for everyone. Basketball players are essentially forced into going these days.

    2. The reason people earn college degrees is to increase their earning potential.

    3. Not that I subscribe to being uneducated (I am a former teacher, and 2 of my parents are professors), but many of our most successful business innovators have been dropouts.

    4. What does a college degree get most new graduates these days besides $100-200k of debt?

    5. I work with small to mid-size business owners every day and most of them don’t have college degrees. You know who has degrees – employees… Because they’re taught all their lives to be employees. That’s what school teaches – be here at this time, have lunch at this time, leave at this time, here is the work I need you to do, here is when it’s due, nice job on this project you get an A!, if you work really hard we’ll progress you to the next level, etc, etc, etc…

    A degree is not the solution to NBA or NFL players not being broke when their careers are done.

  18. As I said before, the majority of players are dead broke within a few years.

    So, “just caring if they go in the first round” is doing them a disservice.

    Calipari can;t MAKE them go to class, but he doesn’t even care if they do.

    Nor stress the importance of getting an education.

    What if the kid gets hurt?

    Or blows all his money?

    No education to fall back on.

    And Johnny couldn’t care less.

  19. Geoff, I agree with the second half of your post #18. You nailed it. Well said.

    I disagree with the first half of that post. Calipari has a bigger obligation than to just coach his team and prepare his players to win. He has an obligation to the game of college basketball. In that regard, Calipari is a complete failure. His repeated references to his “non-traditional” program is code, in the minds of many people, for extreme selfishness. In other words, Calipari is announcing that he’s going to do what’s best for his team and himself, regardless of what anyone else thinks and regardless of how it affects college basketball. This is demonstrated by his decision regarding the IU series and his “non-traditional” habit of recruiting “one-and-done” players.

    You can make the argument that everything he’s doing is legal under the current rules, but that does not make it right. Calipari’s behavior may be “legal,” but it’s not good for college basketball. And that makes it wrong. Calipari is biting the hand that feeds him and as he has openly said on numerous occasions, he’s in it for the short term, determined to get what he can get, and then get out. His behavior and his statements prove that he is an exploiter, a taker, and a very selfish and self-centered person. And I would suggest that if he has to go to these lengths to win, he’s really not that good of a coach! Could Calipari ever achieve what Bob Knight achieved? No freaking way. He does not have the talent or the fortitude to win the way Bob Knight won. Could you ever imagine Calipari’s players having a 96% graduation rate? No way.

    As a result of Calipari’s exploitation of the current rules, I believe it’s just a matter of time before college basketball changes the rules. One way or the other, either as a result of NCAA rules changes, or through an agreement between the NCAA and the NBA, the days of having five one-and-done” players on the roster are going to come to an end. It makes a mockery of the concept of “student-athlete,” and therefore makes a mockery of what the NCAA says it stands for. It’s got to change, or college basketball’s popularity is going to suffer and decline!

    Calipari is catching heat and now becoming defensive, because people around the country, especially media people, see him for what he is; a selfish, egomaniacal and arrogant man that exploits people, exploits the system, and exploits the rules, all for his own personal gain. Calipari games the system and has been doing so for many years. Just because a certain behavior is not illegal, does not make it right. Adultery is no longer illegal in most states, but most people agree that it is very wrong and damages people. Doing wrong things damages the people around you and eventually your self. I believe a lot of Calipari’s behavior is wrong and eventually, it will damage the people around him and ruin his coaching legacy (for whatever that is worth). His choice of killing the IU series damages college basketball and the fans (no question about it). Does he care? No! His recruiting practices damage college basketball and may, in the long run, do damage to the young players he recruits (there is value to being educated, no matter how much money a young man can earn in three to five years). Does Calipari care? No, instead he makes comments like, “Hey, I don’t make the rules.” What chicken-shit from a man in a position to lead and influence young men. “I don’t make the rules.” What a pansy-ass and cowardly comment!

    Calipari is, in my opinion, a man of low character. He has no honor. And that is always wrong.

  20. I don’t believe for one second that Calipari is not cheating.

    Too many of his players got busted for taking stuff and/or having tests done for them.

  21. Ok, let’s play each scenario out:

    Player gets injured (from your tone I’m assuming it’s career ending)…

    If he’s in college there are 3 potential outcomes
    1. It kills his draft status and earning ability
    2. If the college is nice they extend his scholarship, earns his degree, and gets an entry level job
    3. The player doesn’t finish or get his degree

    …not very compelling reasons to stick around.

    If he declares and got drafted (let’s say it’s Teague and he’s the last pick of the first round, when if he had stayed he may have been able to improve his position)…
    1. He signs for slightly more than Jimmy Butler (2011’s last 1st round pick), say 2 years and $2.2
    2. His contract is guaranteed, regardless of when the injury occurs
    3. He can easily pay for college, but will probably take it much more seriously this time.
    4. If he invests wisely, he is et up for life regardless of his job
    5. He is a train wreck like many others and blows his cash, ending up broke and with no degree

    …seems like for the most part a much better alternative.

    Now if the situation is that he blows all his money… Is your position that getting a college education would deter that? I don’t think that’s your point, nor do I believe it to be true. So if your point is that if he had a degree he’d be better off AFTER he blew all his money I think your argument is severely flawed. If he can’t live off a couple million dollars, what makes you think he’ll be able to live of $50-80k a year? It just doesn’t make sense – a degree isn’t going to help someone who can’t manage their money.

    Lastly, I feel disgusting defending Cal, but you’ve given me no choice. Neither you, nor I, know the degree to which he cares about his players and their education. You can assume things because you think he’s slimy, but I I think he is slimy in an I’ll do whatever it takes to win kinda way. I disagree that he doesn’t care about the people that help him achieve that. I think he probably cares very much about this players, just not the NCAA or rules.

  22. Calipari IS like a CEO.One who lacks morals and ethics and will do anything including skirting the law to make a profit.He is a great guy if honesty and integrity are not that important to you.

  23. Yes, I think someone with a degree will manage their money better.

    Not only does it show them some discipline, but also, maybe, better to evaluate investment opportunities.

    I wonder how many of the dead broke players put aside $50,000, or whatever, before realizing they didn’t have a pot to pizz in.

    Why would they live more responsible off 50 grand a year than $500,000 or more?

    Because when you have a TON of money, you don’t think twice about spending it.

  24. We’re Indiana. We should be used to unreasonable expectations. We can send players to go up the Shanghai River to spread the word of God, but its just one huge damn inconvenience to spank some hoodlums turned hillbillies 50 miles north of Bloomington? Oh, the fans, the poor fans…It’s such a disservice to the game. You know what all that gibberish says to me? It means our on coach has bought into all that crap UK fans were claiming our lucky win in Bloomington. Geoff thought we’d lose. He implied the tons of good fortune and favorable officiating that went our way in our win last year.

    I was so anxious to show what makes Indiana elite. What makes us elite is our ability to take on any challenge. The great Hoosiers our past still place that unreasonable burden of living up to expectations other programs never have to bother.

    We jumped on a high-horse because one year our very talented bunch of undervalued players achieved what very view ever thought possible last season. Does Crean deserve a ton of credit for bring us back? Of course he does. And you know what else comes along with being forever “elite?” You have to accept it’s not always going to be fair. The NCAA looks up your ass with a more powerful microscope…Delusional bigheads in the media will unfairly label your players…Your fiercest rival will paint you as the guy ducking. Unfortunately, that’s the territory that comes with being an “elite” program.

    Suck it up and beat their sorry a$$es anywhere they want to challenge you. Isn’t that what the Celtics did to the Heat last night? Isn’t that what “tradition” means? Pack your troops and your bags…Don’t whine. Beat the best in their house or in any house. That’s what the fans of Indiana deserve. That’s what those Hoosier warriors our great past brought to your halls.

    I so wanted to rub in the face of Geoff a Hoosier team that would be Kentucky under their terms. We’re Indiana. We don’t need excuses. We don’t need foolish pride. Our seasoned bunch could have proven the Indiana way of winning is still possible even against all odds the NBA-talent stacked teams. Experience and savviness(e.g. Celtics) five dedicated in their single mission can prove that the biggest money and biggest contracts doesn’t’ equate to the biggest heart.

    I wanted soooooooo badly to prove that next season. I wanted “Tommy” Crean to spot his good friend his foolish neutral site advantage and still spank their “earnings potential” whiny asses with a Hoosier freight train plowing down upon them an everlasting memory their heartless and selfish pursuits nothing to do with the game of basketball.

    We’re Indiana, for God’s sake. Let them have their stupid crutch until it breaks upon their own weight an ego never humble the beauty of a humble game all so distant the truth worn in candy-stripes.

  25. Po – thanks for liking my second point…

    As for your argument I don’t see it.

    1. He is employed by UK, not the NCAA or “college basketball” – therefore his obligation is to UK

    2. How does playing UNC or Duke or Baylor instead of IU hurt college basketball? They are all high profile great games that fans will flock to. The only fans that care about seeing the IU-UK game instead of one of those are IU fans.

    3. Lots of coaches recruit the players that Cal recruits… He just get more of them than anyone. It’s not like their only decision was between UK and Ball St… UNC has had plenty of one-and-done types. Duke has too, so has Texas and UCLA. This is not a phenomenon exclusive to Cal, but no one is calling Roy Williams slimy.

    4. Lots of programs play in neutral sites, and some in large venues. This isn’t a Cal invention, and it’s not really non-traditional. It was tradition for IU-UK for many, many years.

    5. I don’t think that everything he is doing as far as recruiting is legal.

    6. He isn’t half the coach that Knight was, but this is a different era.

    7. Your issue isn’t with Cal its with the NBA rules. They are the ones dictating when a person is eligible to be drafted. Not the NCAA and not Cal. The NCAA cannot tell a player that they must go to school for a certain amount of time or credits to be eligible to make money playing basketball. If they try then players will circumvent college basketball with some other system.

    Regardless, part of my argument is that Cal is greedy and selfish, so we agree there. I’m just not sure why you think for any reason whatsoever that Cal owes anything to college basketball, or needs to do what’s best for college basketball instead of what’s best for his team.

    Please enlighten me.

  26. Chet, My wife will be pleased as those those temps sound almost to good to believe for mid-summer. Sounds enjoyable to me also even though I like weather just a smidgeon cooler(Spring/Fall). I am much obliged for the heads up.

  27. I don’t blame Calipari for creating the one and done rule, but I think he has mastered the art of exploiting that ridiculous rule.

    Look, we all know that a University Education is not for everyone, or at least it should not be for everyone. Some young people, regardless of race, economic background, family circumstances, or their aptitude are not going to derive great value from the time and money spent attending a traditional university. Whether it be attitude, personal philosophy, IQ, or whatever, some people are better off (happier, more fulfilled and better prepared) doing something other than attending a university. Trade school, the military, pursuing an AA degree, or whatever, are better options for some. Therefore, for those people, attending college may actually be a waste of time and money, delaying their progress toward self-sufficiency. As far as I’m concerned, it is wrong and unconstitutional to deprive an adult the opportunity to make a living at their chosen occupation. If a very athletically talented 18 year-old man wants to play professional basketball, he should be allowed to make himself available for the NBA draft. Requiring an adult to attend a year of college before he is allowed to pursue his chosen occupation is just wrong (I believe unconstitutional) and it is stupid.

    Furthermore, if the young man enters the draft, but is not drafted, spends no time being coached or trained as a professional, than that young man should have the right to pursue a college education through an athletic scholarship. As an adult, young men with the potential talent, should have the option of either becoming a professional athlete or remaining an amateur and attending college. The current rules are restrictive, exploitive, stupid and harmful. They damage college basketball and can do damage to a lot of young men’s lives.

    Choices are good. Rules that exploit a young and relatively ignorant young person are not good. Get rid of the one and done rule, allow young men of legal age to pursue their dreams and career goals, and if that’s not possible, allow them to have the option of attending college.

    If the rules are changed, Calipari returns to being an average college basketball coach, loses his job at Kentucky, and drifts off towards irrelevance. A lot of young people would receive the definitive feedback necessary to make an informed choice as to whether they can be a professional athlete of it they’d be better served pursuing a college education. Freedom is a wonderful thing.

  28. Geoff’s worst nightmare….D-Wade calls Bloomington and puts Loggins on the phone in a 3-way with Tommy.

    Heat in seven. Count it.

  29. Podunker-

    That may be one of the best posts I’ve read on here in a very long time. The one-and-done rule has ruined the game. I think a lot of these kids would shy away from the NBA because they truly seek the limelight the college game offers. The college game provides them the one year stage and exaggerates their worth/marketability.

    The NBA benefits greatly by using the college game their little whore.

  30. What happens to those six multimillion dollar homes the broke NBA player purchased after he goes bankrupt? Oh, that’s right…It’s only the God damn spoiled average American earning $20,000 a year as a Walmart cashier that caused the housing industry to sink as fast our modest values and blinds a man all the responsible routines to live within his means. The rich know how to manage their money…The banks and CNN have assured me such is the almighty truth.

  31. Sure they do. Remember, the one-and-done rule isn’t an NCAA rule, it’s an NBA rule. They just want to see a kid play against better competition in college because it’s hard to evaluate against high schoolers.

    I don’t know how you get around it. The NCAA can’t force them to stay a second year. Shoot, I doubt anybody at Kaintuck has enough credits for a second year (I think Paintball 101 is only 2 credits). The ball is pretty much in the NBA’s court and they just don’t care.

    I fully concur with Geoff on staying in school at Kaintuck. What are you gonna get out of 4 years at a bait and tackle shop? Now, if you’re at Stanford, or the like, that’s another story. I just read wher Andrew Luck is gonna finish his degree.

  32. If this were tennis, we would say Podunker in straight sets, 6-0, 6-1, 6-0 love.

    Game, set, match!

    Geoff, your problem is that sound exactly like what you are…an accountant. Everything is a zero sum game to you and what you call the ‘rational dilemma’ is measured only in absolute numbers. Even there, you should also remember the value of zero… to the left and to the right of the decimal point.

    Podunker, on the other hand, talks about the ‘value’ (in material and other more important terms like ethical, philosophcal, moral and in terms of quality of life). It would be hard to explain these to you, I really don’t think your mind can even comprehend what a ‘cultured’ man is, the value of the example of becoming an educated man under harsh circumstances my father provided us simply because they expressed his love; the value he taught us to place on ‘service’; the philosophical issue that make a man uncomfortable and motivate him to seek self-improvement, sometimes even to rebel against the rational in numbers; the power and satisfaction that emerges from learning and expanding, understanding what exists beyond the perimeter of our self-indulgence…. Podunker is talking about all those things…but, you…you are probably still confused at the first of them. You don’t see a world as an integration of emerging stimuli and its absorption;….you have to break it down to the height of the jump, the ‘length’ of the body, the degrees of the dunk, the ppg or the number of blocks. Sad in between sorting out the shot and the referee’s call, you missed the entire game.

    On the other hand, Podunker, the only thing I can do with your argument…, about Calipari, about the game of basketball, about competition, about college, about Indiana is to …save it. And pull it out every once in a while and read it to remember why.

  33. Tsao – if you ever met me you would clearly think differently. The only place I have this reputation is on the Scoop. My friends would laugh until tears if they read your assessment.

    That being said, I completely and wholly take on that persona when debating. I use the criteria of the court when forming my arguments. It takes facts, not feelings, to prove a case.

    I completely disagree with your assessment of the argument. I haven’t lost a game yet… 6-0, 6-0, 6-0 in my favor.

    I havent once defended Calipari’s ethics or morals, so your can’t beat me at that. We agree he is at his core a selfish, arrogant, and slimy individual. That is the only area that Po made any headway, but I’ve already made those points (several times over).

    His only disagreement was that Cal has a bigger obligation to college basketball… Why? How?

    It ridiculous. No one else is being held to that standard. Coach K doesn’t take crap for Austin Rivers being a one-and-done. Izzo isn’t catching a heap of crap for playing a high-profile opponent on an aircraft carrier – that’s about the most non-traditional game ever played!

    You guys sound like ridiculous ex-girlfriends crying because he moved on to someone else.

    Absolutely he is a slime ball. But not because he broke up with IU. He didn’t owe “dating and relationships” to be a better guy and wait six months before kissing another girl.

    Seriously, you guys sound ridiculous.

  34. Last time I checked, Coach K isn’t filling his roster with virtually all one-and-doners like Slimeball is.

  35. Btw, I’m not an accountant…

    Never even taken an accounting class. I did however major in philosophy before settling on sociology. (minors in math and education)

  36. Geoff; just because Calipari is free to do something, does not mean its right for him to do it. Just because adults are free to have unprotected sex, does not make it a good idea. It’s still dangerous, potential devastating and really, really stupid.

    Just because Calipari is not the only college basketball coach recruiting players they suspect are going to be one-and-done, does not make Calipari’s exploitation of that stupid rule the right thing to do. A lot of people abuse narcotics, but that does not make it right, healthy, or good behavior.

    So, by your logic, the only entity that any adult has an obligation to is the entity that employs him/her? So, none of us have any responsibility or obligation to any entity that does not employ us? What about the industry our employer is a part of? Although we may be employed by a private company, do we have an obligation to the community we live or work in? Do any of us have any type of obligation to our state or our country? Do any of us have any kind of obligation the the society that we’re a part of?

    Geoff, I’m not attacking you here, and this is sincere, but do words such as ethics, morality, right, wrong, proper and improper have any meaning? Do the concepts those words describe have any value in today’s society? Or are those words just sentimental drivel living in some people’s nostalgia? There are a lot of people that follow the letter of the law. But that does not mean they’re not scumbags. Calipari may may not be breaking any rules, but he’s still a scumbag and his payback is going to be a bitch.

  37. Comparing Coach K to Calipari is really a reach. They’re not even in the same species.

  38. No Geoff….don’t think I’d change my mind. I’ve followed your entries long enough (from your first one where you self declared as the Roundball Messiah given special gifts by… [never mind, don’t want to start THAT discussion] only to break down your ‘analyses’ into the category of the “man in stripes f’d us”. So, basically, no.

    BTW, I haven’t cared one way or another about the UK issue. Always agreed with Knight’s take on Calipari; consider him a virulent disease that has infected the NCAA. If we ever play them again I’d suggest we wear surgical masks. I have similar feelings towards the NBA, consider those who follow it experts in waste disposal.

    I’ll just suggest you keep reading Podunker. He’s being very good, even delicate, addressing your vulnerabilities. I’m just not patient enough to do that. You should listen to him.

  39. Well, it’s hard to track down exactly who Duke made offers to, but I can tell you that they have much stricter academic standards than UK. That’s an institutional roadblock that is going to make at least a little difference in who they can go after. That being said, Duke gets as many McDonalds All-Americans as any school in the country. And those are the types of kids that have the potential to go one-and-done. Besides Rivers they went hard after Quincy Miller and Bradley Beal, which would have given them 3 one-and-done players. UNC went after Anthony Davis and Austin Rivers. Kansas and UConn offered to just about every freshman that has declared for the 2012 draft – do you think they would have turned them away after offering up schollies? Those recruits just decided to go to ther schools. Some chose UK.

    UK only had 3 freshman declare for the draft this year. Wiltjer was never going to be a one-and-done player. Lamb and Miller and Jones weren’t one-and-done. UK isn’t the bastard child of the NCAA. They are just slightly ahead of the curve in this movement. UCLA may have more one-and-doners than UK this year. If you want to start chastising Cal for players that declare before earning their degree, well there is a long-a$$ line of coaches right behind him including K, Williams, Matta, Calhoun, Boehiem, Self, Howland, Miller, Drew, Donovan, etc… Sounds like a whose who of coaches and programs.

    IU went after Harris, and is offering Anya, Lyles, Lyle, Robinson, and Gordon. All guys who are potential one-and-doners. I’m sure there are a couple more offers coming to players in those classes that have the potential to be one year only players. Are you not interested in them, because I think you’re in the minority.

    I can tell you right now that UNC, Texas, UConn, Arizona, Kansas, and UCLA at a bare minimum of programs, are all going to go after as many of the top 10 recruits in the country every year as they can. Why shouldn’t Kentucky? Now if you want to question his tactics in wooing them or getting them qualified, then fine, I’m right there with you, but it’s silly to say he shouldn’t want or go after the best players.

  40. Come at me Tsao, I honestly could give a f@ck. I have the benefit of facts and logic on my side. I have enough friends to keep me busy. I don’t need anyone to tiptoe around their points with me.

    Here is the point…. Cal and K are not different species, in fact they are both white, American, males, over the age of 50, who coach mens college basketball, so they have a lot in common actually.

    It isn’t very far-fetched to think that Duke could have ended up with Q. Miller, Beal, and Rivers – all players that declared for this years draft after their freshman season. It isn’t far-fetched because Coach K recruited the crap out of all of them and offered them scholarships. It isn’t Cal’s fault that 2 of those players chose other schools over Duke, but I guarantee you that no one would be giving Coach K sh!t if things had worked out the way he wanted them to.

    Again if you want to question the tactics that Cal used in actually getting the top recruits he went after that’s fine and up for discussion, but the fact remains that plenty of other high profile coaches went after multiple one-and-done players – they just didn’t get them.

    For some reason I have missed all the outrage over Ben Howland signing 2 top-5 players this year. Maybe it’s because UCLA and IU aren’t natural rivals… Where is the outrage over the Arizona class?

    I’m skeptical that everything Cal is doing is ethically proper or even legal. But as far as I can tell he isn’t doing anything that the other top programs aren’t trying to do, he is just more successful at it.

    Please tell me one thing that he is doing that is unethical. ACTUALLY NAME IT!!! What is he doing to not fulfill his obligation to college basketball? NAME ONE THING!!!

    If you have an issue with the one-and-done rule that’s fine, but recruiting the best players you possibly can and telling them you give them their best chance to make millions of dollars – and then actually doing that – is not unethical or immoral.

    Harvard and Stanford recruit the best students they can and promise them they will give them the brightest futures possible. It’s absolutely retarded to think this isn’t the way things are, or to think that that is unethical or immoral.

    Cheating, lying , and stealing, are immoral and unethical… And Cal is probably doing those things. But the above discussion has nothing to do with ethics or morals.

  41. Laffy – your supposition that players with degrees would be less likely to go broke is tough to prove, but I can tell you this: 50% of NFL players have undergraduate degrees and yet 78% still manage to file for bankruptcy within 2 years of retirement… That’s a LOT of guys with degrees that made some really poor decisions with money.

    The NBA has a much lower % of degrees, but also a lower % of bankruptcy, and a longer timeframe after retirement that players file.

    I still think your belief that these guys will value money differently when they are making far less, is just silly. They’re “ballers” and you gotta strut yo sh!t.

    Also, if they are smart enough or hardworking enough to have the ability to earn a degree then I’m sure they have the ability to use the skills and contacts they have gotten through basketball to procure a decent job, even without a degree.

    If they are just straight up dumb or lazy then they wouldn’t be good students any way.

    Sorry Laffy, but you don’t have a pot to piss in in this discussion.

  42. Geoff…you don’t even come close to getting it, do you? You’ve understood n-o-t-h-i-n-g! If I recall, your connection to Indiana is somewhat nebulous, someone raised in the state by virtue of which you are a basketball fan of the Hoosiers, but without a direct relationship to Indiana University (please correct me if I am wrong). In the process, however, you lose perspective.

    We are proud of our University. It is a University, first and always. We expect our players to come to Indiana to receive a great education, become part of a great institution and, while we are passionate about our basketball and its history, we want them to come as students, join our Hoosier family and, someday, proudly display their Indiana University degree on their wall.

    One-and-doners are not part of our life and if that is their frame of mind, I’d really rather they go elsewhere. We will even write Calipari recommending them.

    Have any one-and-doners ever been recruited? Likely so, but I think that’s exactly why we felt alienated from Sampson’s teams/recruits. We do understand that some recruit may eventually arrive and leave (a-la-Gordon), but our assumption and expectation is that he is coming to Indiana for four years and will be a part of our lives. Very different circumstance than Kentucky, Connecticut, Baylor (which is surprising given the coach’s father Dr. Homer Drew’s history), UCLA…who actually seek them out. UC-K the University of Calipari@Kentucky) remind me of driving the roads of our state and seeing a sign on many of the driveways to the farms… “We receive fill dirt”, it read.

    If life throws an opportunity their way they are free to follow it as they wish but at Indiana University we do not hire recent high school graduates with marginal high school degrees to represent us. I don’t expect you to understand it. Since your focus and point-of-reference seems to be the sewer that is the NBA my only advice is that if the tide begins to rise in that sewer… keep your nose above the water.

  43. BTW Tsao – Almost every book I read is either inspirational or metaphysical in nature, other than my Stephen King… Andy Andrews, Mitch Album, Dan Millman, Richard Bach make up about 80% of my reading over the last decade. My favorite series of all time is The Way of the Peaceful Warrior books.

    If I’m not listening to sports talk or country music in my car then I’m probably listening to Jim Rohn, who preaches ethics and morals and being true to yourself and others as well as anyone ever has.

    If you want to put me in a box because of my debate style, that is fine… I’m just telling you you’re way off when it comes to my personal relationships. I am far more right-brained in my everyday life. My parents, friends, and clients would all attest to it.

    While I certainly respect and enjoy aspects of what I learned from my professor parents (mother and step-father), I spent more time growing up living with my elementary guidance counselor father (picture Mr. Rogers) and art teacher step-mother. That was what was nurtured more than the left-brain stuff for me. However, I almost always find it most beneficial when entering into a debate to bring out the left-side. When proving something you need proof, which requires analysis and logic.

    I don’t need to be right, but before I agree with another viewpoint I do require some proof or logic from the other side. I am still waiting for something other than general opinions and statements from you or Po or Laffy on any of the various things we’re discussing.

  44. You are changing the debate… People here are pissed because

    1) they feel UK has somehow ducked or slighted UK
    2) Cal is unethical and or immoral
    3) UK is doing a disservice to college basketball

    I didn’t attend IU because I wanted to play college basketball instead of just watch from the stands. So I went elsewhere. I went to college, joined a fraternity, played basketball (and soccer actually) , captianed both teams, and graduated – therefore I have an understanding of what school pride is.
    I have 4 parents that went to IU and 2 of them went on to teach in the Kelley School. I grew up with a father who is batsh!t for IU hoops and therefore I was too. My allegiance has never wavered. If you want to question my understanding, go for it. But I think your analysis of what most people want from prospective IU athletes is pie-in-the-sky fluff. I think it is extremely generational in nature. I think you couldn’t be more disconnected in what the majority of people expect, especially those under 40.

    Players leaving college early for the pro ranks is nothing new. It’s been going on for DECADES! It has happened to IU. Do you no longer claim Thomas, Wright, Jefferies, or Gordon as Hoosiers?

    Regardless of all of that, why do you care if UK does it another way? They aren’t your alma mater… They owe nothing to you. Why are you holding them to the same standard as IU? Those recruits HAVE TO go to school somewhere. It is how the NBA has set up the system. That fact that people here hate on UK because those players choose to believe Cal’s sales pitch is stupid. If he’s is doing something unethical or against the rules then we have a right to be pissed, but if by some strange miracle he is not, then we have no reason or right to be pissed.

    So until you can connect the dots between being a proud alumni of IU who (personally) wants to see 4 year players go to the school he proudly graduated from and the 3 points above then your post #48 has nothing to do with anything.

  45. By the way, please explain to me how Cal is “exploiting” the rule? Lots of schools offered those players scholarships. They had a choice where to go and chose UK. The other schools would have been thrilled to get them for a year – that’s why they offered them scholarships.

    Who is Cal supposed to recruit?

    Where should those players go instead of UK?

    What disservice is Cal doing to those players or college basketball?

    I’m still waiting for one friggin example or bit of logic… I’m sorry, but Cal is unethical and immoral statements just don’t cut the mustard without a reason as to how or why.

    I assume that everyone will continue to duck these questions since they can’t actually find a shred of evidence or logic to back it up.

    Tsao, according to your perception of me, if there were any evidence or logic to back up these claims, I would have uncovered and cited them by now…

    Waiting….

  46. Harvard, not sure if you are insinuating this may be an imposter, but feel free to ask Dustin if these are coming from me… I know you have his email.

    If not, then the cheese must be coming from somewhere nearby. Possibly your dinner plate, but if not, maybe your seat.

  47. Calipari and Coach K. Coach K, a Polish kid from Chicago’s North Side was recruited to the Corps of Cadets of the United States Military Academy at West Point graduating along with the other “best of the best” to become a part of The Long Grey Line we honor to this day. Just that one fact defines the difference. You really don’t get it , do you?

    At USMA Mike Kryzewski was held to and served under the strictest disciplinary and academic standards a human being can have; rose to a position of leadership within the Corps following names like Grant, Lee, MacArthur, Eisenhower; held up under the Honor Code and never, never was questioned for his ethics or about his honor. Not as a Cadet, not as a member of the United States Army, not as a college Coach at West Point and Duke.

    In fact, he was named to leadership of USA Basketball and serves as our Olympic coach, positions that speak of his integrity and the respect his fellow coaches (indeed professional coaches throughout the world) have for him. As a young coach, Coach our Bob Knight at West Point; then raised Duke’s program from utter failure to today’s lofty and respected (a term you could never use with Calipari) place. Dozens of times, turned down other jobs including chances to go to the NBA. These differences between the two (K and Calipari)are not subtle, yet it would be cruel of me to expect you to make the distinction.

    Have you heard Bob Knight’s critique of John Calipari (plus several others) and his ethics? Try this, Google ‘Bob Knight and Mike Kryzewski, ESPN dialogue’ and listen to their exchange. Try to understand and learn about the game of basketball and its real context.

    Compare that to, Calipari…his personal and, at the very least, ethical collapse at Massachusetts, Memphis, Kentucky…as I said, keep your nose above the water level. Wasn’t he fired from a job in the NBA and, only then, became the champion of one-and-done recruitment. Do you understand the opportunity cost lost to the community on each slot given to the one-and-done he brings to Kentucky? How are these players different than the horses behind the white fences around Lexington? That’s what Calipari does for a living; he tends to very fast, strong beasts that run and snort.

    And then, he races them. Just like they do in Keenland and Churchill Downs.

    As I said, you really have no idea, do you Geoff? I think it is intellectually impossible for you to understand the difference between Indiana University and what you are talking about with your quotes of numbers lost to anyone that does not live to read Basketball Weekly. In many ways, I feel a bit sorry for you.

  48. Your words:

    “…why do you care if UK does it another way? …Why are you holding them (U. of Kentucky) to the same standard as IU? Those recruits HAVE TO go to school somewhere…”

  49. Tsao – furthermore. Name me the basketball program that you think IU should be modeled after. If one of your criteria is “graduate 100% of its players” then plain and simple we will not compete for national championships. So if that’s what you want fine, but you’re in the VAST minority. Enjoy your moral high ground – its lonely up there.

    I bet that the VAST MAJORITY of IU fans would be thrilled to have a program like Kansas or UNC, that seemingly does things on the up-and-up, recruits McDonalds All-Americans every year, and contends for conference and national championships every year. They also send most of their best players to the NBA as early entrants.

    Duke is probably the closest thing you can find to your ideal program… But as I’ve shown in previous posts they made a strong push for 3 one-and-done prospects in the 2011 class (same number as UK) and they have sent several players to the NBA early in the last 15 years – Brand, Boozer, Deng, Dunleavy, Maggette, McRoberts, Jay Williams. You know who stuck around for 4 years at Duke? Guys who weren’t NBA calibre for the most part.

    Next you’ll probably tell me that you walked uphill to school, in the snow, BOTH ways! Yes, we know everything was better, and more pure, and more ethical, and hard-earned in your day. Keep telling us what a better place the world was back in your heyday. Maybe it’s true, maybe it ain’t – either way the world has changed, and so has college basketball and your precious IU fan base.

    I guarantee you don’t speak for the current generation of fans in post #48. Christ you probably don’t even speak for your own generation during the time you were actually in school. I’m sure you would have loved nothing more than to beat UK or Purdue and win championships with an all-white Branch McCracken team… Oh wait you did. (not that you’re actually that old…) but hey that is just how college basketball was back then. Maybe it’s just never been the moral, ethical Eden that you think it was.

  50. clarification-where it reads: “…As a young coach, Coach our Bob Knight at West Point; then raised Duke’s program…” should read: As a young coach, Coach K replaced our Bob Knight at West Point; then raised Duke’s program…”

  51. Tsao – I want to ask this with all sincerity? Are you drunk right now? You are telling me I have no comprehension of this debate, but you’re not debating any of the things I discussed in my earlier posts.

    I have never said that Cal is a bastion of college hoops, to be revered and admired like Coach K.

    I have continually said he is a slimeball. I agree with all the negative things you have said about him.

    I also agree with most of the things you said about Coach K. However, there have been a few coaches of USA basketball that haven’t been thought of as the model of ethical behavior… Including our own Bobby Knight. Listen I love Bobby, but spare me his name in an argument about ethics and morals because most of America doesn’t see him as a good human being. Coach K has also been accused of occasional and minor recruiting violations, including this year with Alex Pothryess (ironically a UK commit) so you may want to recant that point.

    Again, NONE of the arguments I have made in any of my posts have anything to do with Indiana University. The only time I brought up IU was to say that UK didn’t duck or slight them. That has nothing to do with how IU basketball or the university conducts itself.

    WHY THE HELL ARE YOU BRINGING UP MY UNDERSTANDING OF INDIANA UNIVERSITY?

    It literally couldn’t be any less relevant to the discussions I am having with Po.

  52. Tsao – yes, these players all have to go somewhere. That is how the current system works. If not UK, where should they go? Answer one of my damn questions!

    What do you think the goal of every single top 100 recruit in the country is? To be a manager at Enterprise Rent-a-car? No, it’s to make it into the NBA (even Cody, shhhh). Now, is there a chance that a couple also value the college experience, or a college degree, and want to stay as long as possible? Sure, but that is the minority. And given the opportunity it is proven that almost without exception a basketball player will leave for the nba when they have a chance to get drafted. The better the player, the more likely he leaves early – regardless of what college he selects.

    Are you living in La-La-Land?

  53. To answer your question #1- Indiana University’s basketball program should be modeled on…..Indiana University’s values, history, academic standards, institutional goals and standards. That is a hard one for you to understand isn’t it?

    your question #2- I don’t drink (to be 100% accurate, perhaps a glass (1) of a very good red wine once a month). But then, your’s was one of those desperate nonsensical questions thrown in when you sense you’ve lost the argument (like a nervous laugh), isn’t it? That’s very insecure.

    But, as I said, it would be hard for you to understand.

  54. Geoff—

    TT is nothing but another condescending bigot Thumper who thinks he’s smarter than the fairy tale Jesus he claims to follow.

    F him.

  55. Your words:
    “…I have never said that Cal is a bastion of college hoops, to be revered and admired like Coach K. I have continually said he is a slimeball. I agree with all the negative things you have said about him…”

    “…there have been a few coaches of USA basketball that haven’t been thought of as the model of ethical behavior… Including our own Bobby Knight. Listen I love Bobby, but spare me his name in an argument about ethics and morals…”

    You are confused. His ethics and values, especially where they pertain to his standards for Div. 1 basketball were impeccable. I’ve never heard anyone- not one individual- question his ethics, his standards for his program was a model and admired by those he mentored (Coach K) and those who competed against him, Jerry Tarkanian, Jud Heathcote…

    Coach Knight problem was sideline demeanor and temperament, style, a very different issue. But that’s exactly the difference that would escape you and disable you from understanding the context of Indiana basketball. Again, not surprising given your contradictions. You acknowledge the likelihood Calipari is totally corrupt, yet you consider his your model program…you don’t get it at all, do you? You can’t score on both baskets at the same time

    As for your race card:

    “… you would have loved nothing more than (to beat UK or Purdue with)…an all-white Branch McCracken team… Oh wait you did. (not that you’re actually that old…) but hey that is just how college basketball was back then…”

    Actually, I really enjoyed my friends; Walter ‘Big Bell’ Bellamy, Herb Lee, Leroy Johnson, Gordon Mickey. Plus, and as important, you are making an ethnic/racial assumption about me that you’ll end up swallowing …big time.

  56. Couldn’t the chance to become a coach at a military academy be somewhat beneficial in an attempt to dodge the draft and lesson the possibility of being sent to fight if war is imminent?

  57. Tsao-

    You’re being a bit ridiculous. Geoff is a very passionate fan of Indiana. He admires the talent it takes to play the game at its highest level..There’s nothing sinister in his love of basketball or his point of view that sees nothing wrong with young men operating within the rules to achieve their dreams.

    Is there really that much difference between a one-and-done and a two-and-done? Cody will likely be gone after next season. Even if we don’t make it to a Final Four or hang another banner, I’d suspect most fans will be suggesting we build a monument for the kid instead of chastising him for seizing an opportunity to play in the NBA. Look what Gordon Hayward did to Butler…He stays one more year and their chances hanging a banner in that second trip to the Final Four look a lot better. Wasn’t it surprising he didn’t stay for another year for a chance the Butler fans to experience a once in a hundred year event? When will Butler ever again have a team as deep and talented?

    None of these guys are saints. There are very few young men with the chance to play at the next level that will put their university ahead of their individual interests.

    And what of George McGinnis? I don’t remember Bobby crucifying him for going pro. Think what the Hoosiers would have done to UCLA with McGinnis and Downing teamed together going against the mighty Wooden and Walton at the ’73 Final Four.

  58. Tsao – once again… I haven’t lost a single bit of any argument here. You just keep putting words in my mouth and then act like it’s what I said, avoid the actual issues and questions that I bring up, and go completely off-topic in an attempt to find an area you claim to have more knowledge.

    1. I never said UK was “the” or “my” model for college hoops, nor did I say it was they way I’d like to see IU run it’s program.

    2. EVERYONE outside of hardcore Knight fans questions his ethics for the way he treated his players. That isn’t his sideline demeanor. It’s the demeanor with which he treated people. If you think this isn’t the case you have haven’t lived outside Indiana. Is it moral or ethical to berate and physically abuse your players? Many, many, many, many people have this question of Bobby.

    3. The race card wasn’t necessarily aimed at you, but it nonetheless factual. There were no blacks on the first championship team, and I’m not sure if there were any on the second. I know that McCracken brought in black players and wasn’t exactly Rupp. I know Bill Garrett played in between those championship teams, but regardless I was speaking of the segregation for the most part of college hoops, to make the point that every era has its flaws. Surprised you didn’t understand that.

    Now please answer one of my questions…

    The IU question doesn’t really count because as I said numerous times you are the one bringing IU into the discussion. I knew your answer would be to hold IU to its own standard. I’m just telling you that you are on a very small island of people that want it the way you do, and that there isn’t a single competitive program in the country on an annual basis that runs a program the way you want IU to run theirs.

  59. So again, Tsao, I ask – what does your personal ethical and moral code (not IU’s or the NCAA’s) that you wish IU would run their program by (but doesn’t) have to do with any of the things I was actually debating with Po?

    I went back and checked 3 times, and just like I thought, I never once brought up the ethical standards by which IU should run its program.

    If you want to have Po’s back that’s fine… But if he and I are debating whether it’s partly sunny or partly cloudy don’t tell me Po is right because he buys your brand of dog food. STAY ON TOPIC!

  60. Some the best quotes from Tsao (I quote from memory):

     
     
     

    And then another one:

     
     
     
     
     

    And then there was this one, probably best known:

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    You debate Tsao—you debate the wind. It blows no matter what you say.

    So let’s all put on our straight faces and talk IU football instead.

  61. Bob’s ethics were not “impeccable”:

    First of all, one of his best buddies is Tark, one of the biggest slimeballs in the sport.

    Second, if cheating was as RAMPANT as they say, why didn’t Bob ever name names? Don’t tell me “no one likes a snitch.” You can’t sit there and CRY and CRY and CRY about cheating and then say, “Well, I’m not going to tell you who is doing it because no one likes a tattletale.”

    Third, Knight turned the other way when it came to pot smokers on the team. The whole team got busted once and he let the starters stay on the team.

    Not only that, Jay Edwards was an INFAMOUS fan of the hippy lettuce when your God recruited him and while he was on the team…..and Bobby begged him to stay/come play.

    Then there is the whole choking students and beating his employees and covering it up and lying under oath.

    Not “impeccable” ethics one single bit.

  62. Oh, and speaking of Knight’s “ethics”:

    1) His son Pat was a worthless drunk who had NO BUSINESS being on the team. And did Pat appreciate his opportunity? No. He took that free ride that could have helped a kid that actually NEEDED and DESERVED it and spent his time getting sheet-faced all the time.

    Oh, Bobby “kicked him off the team”, but let the “players vote” to have him come back.

    Disgraceful.

    2) Knight tried to bribe Davis to leave in hopes of destroying IU.

    Now, his worshippers will say I’m crazy, but Bob’s own words prove me right.

    After everything happened, Knight said he planned on firing Davis all along. Only the most hard-core bootlickers believe that one.

    And if Knight was going to fire Davis, why did he offer him a bunch of money after Bob got canned?

    He said it was “in case he couldn’t find a job.”

    Guess what?

    Davis FOUND a job….and a pretty good one at that.

    And Knight was FURIOUS.

    He lied.

    He didn’t offer that money “in case he couldn;t find a job” at all.

    He tried to bribe Davis into not taking the job because he knew if Davis left too, virtually the entire team would have left….destroying the program.

    Knight cared more about HIMSELF than the program/fans/players he claimed to love.

    And his sheep STILL lick his feet.

    There are words not strong enough to convey how much they truly disgust me.

    Especially when they beat their chests about “ethics” and “we do things the right way.”

    Bunch of lying hypocritical frauds.

    Of course, it’s no coincidence most of them are “Christians.”

    It sure is odd how they foam at the mouth with, “These one-and-doners are a joke to the game and send a horrible message to young kids” when they turn around and PRAISE a guy who treated others like DOG FECES simply because he won some games.

    There’s a GREAT lesson for kids: “Win at sports and you can treat others like complete crap and we’ll treat you like God anyway.”

    Barf.

  63. Tsao – just to be clear… I love Knight and display his birthday cards he sent me proudly. I don’t have the same feelings of disgust that Laffy does. But that doesn’t mean I’m blind to the things Laffy speaks of. There are legitimate concerns with Knight’s moral code (mine as well, I’m no saint). He may have been a stickler for the written rules, but he has some questionable values when it came to the unwritten ones.

    Again, though this is all off topic.

    The only thing I was debating with Po was whether or not UK or Coach Cal owed anything to IU or college basketball. We also delved into whether or not Cal was exploiting the one-and-done rule.

    To this point, he has offered no evidence or logic to back up any of those claims.

    How you brought your ethical standards for IU into the equation is still beyond me.

  64. Well, that was fun. Just a few extra points that crossed my mind since reading the last 26 posts or so.

    1. Just because someone posts five or six comments in a row does not mean their winning the debate. Quantity of argument does not overcome quality of argument.

    2. You keep asking for facts, but the facts you request are self evident, especially about Calipari. You ask “what has he done?” Well, obviously, he recently recruited five freshman that were one and done players. They were not student athletes. Their time at Kentucky made a mockery of the student-athlete concept. He exploited the rules to use five young men so he could win an NCAA Championship, increase his compensation, and secure his employment. It remains to be seen if those young men will derive great long term benefit from their time playing for Calipari or if, like so many of their soon-to-be peers, they will be bankrupt in ten years. In other words, Calipari knowingly exploited these five young men and made no serious effort to secure their future as self-sufficient and responsible members of society. If any of those five players are bankrupt ten years from now, Calipari will share in the responsibility for that, because, as a man in position of leadership, he will have failed to do everything in his power to prepare them for long term success. You want facts, just look at what happened at the schools Calipari coached at before to KY! How many of them ended up on probation? Why were they penalized? When the flames get too hot, Calipari just walks out the door and moves on to the next job, wiping his dirty hands on the people he leaves behind. The facts you request are a matter of public record.

    3. In my eyes, when anyone on blog sites starts throwing race-card accusations around, they automatically lose the debate. When anyone on these blog sites starts with personal attacks in place of legitimate debate, they have lost the debate. When another poster’s argument frustrates you to the point where you feel compelled to respond with a personal attack, they’re simply exposing their immaturity, their intellectual limitations and a less-than-optimal character. Better not to respond when another post makes you so angry that you feel compelled to respond with a personal attack. As the old saying goes, “it’s better to keep your mouth shut and let people suspect you a fool, than to open it and confirm it for them.”

    4. Someone said that (I’m paraphrasing) there is nothing the NCAA can do about the one-and-done rule. That’s obviously not true. If the NCAA wanted to stop or limit this stupid behavior, they could easily amend the rule so that schools that lose players to the NBA before graduation would lose scholarships. that would stop it right away and the NBA would, in response, dump the ridiculous rule. It’s real simple; a school gets X number of scholarships per year and in total. The “spend” one of those scholarships on a player that becomes one-and-done. That scholarship is lost to the school for at least two more year, if not longer. Universities think twice about recruiting such a high volume of one and done players. The NBA drops the ridiculous rule and begins drafting players, of legal age, after they graduate from High School. Problem solved!

    The NCAA won’t enact that rule because they are afraid of being hit with the race card. The people that run the NCAA are weak, greedy, PC cowards, and they are failing the young men they were supposedly hired to enhance.

  65. Po –

    1. you are right about quantity vs quality, but mine involve BOTH.

    2. It isn’t self evident. You’re OPINION is that he the one-and-done rule is bad for college basketball, and since Cal is the most obvious beneficiary of that rule you single him out as your villain. I’m not saying that Cal isn’t shady or unethical, but I am saying that recruiting the best players in the country who MUST go to college somewhere isn’t shady or unethical. Other coaches do it. I named plenty of names and cited several examples. You say that Cal recruited 5 one-and-doners okay, but so did Williams, and Self, and Miller, and yes EVEN Coach K. The difference is that those players chose to go to UK more often than they chose to go to other schools. So if you think that recruiting one-and-done players that MUST go to a college for one year under the current system is unethical then you also must conclude that those coaches I mentioned, including Coach K commit unethical recruiting practices. If you do not agree with that then find another reason to be pissed at Cal, but don’t get high and mighty because more top players choose him.

    I never debated Calipari’s overall ethics, nor his record at previous schools, only the current situations regarding one-and-done recruits and his non-traditional scheduling. I completely agree that he is a scumbag cheater that has burned every school he’s been at. Quit pretending like I agree with you on this.

    Preparing his players for long term succes and bankruptcy have absolutely nothing to do with how he left things at Memphis or UMass – that was a really strange argument. Lots of players – whether they have degrees or don’t have degrees – go bankrupt after their NBA careers. To this point there is no correlation between Calipari players and bankruptcy. But regardless of all of that, those players were all going to be one-and-done no matter what school they went to. So why is it Cal’s fault?

    3. I never played the race card. I have never accused anyone on this site, nor do I think anyone on this site is a racist. I simply said that every era has its flaws, so don’t go around claiming (or insinuating) how holy college basketball was in a prior time, because for every one-and-done argument there is in 2012 you can have a race debate from 1950.

    4. Sounds like an interesting solution to me. I am not arguing that the NCAA cannot do anything. I am simply saying that the current system is X. Until the current system X is changed, coaches that have the ability to recruit top players will continue to do so. Cal is not even close to the only coach on this list.

    I would add to your rule… A scholarship is worth one player through graduation or for 4 years. If a player graduates in 2 or 3 years then that scholarship can either be extended into a 4th year, or if the student-athlete decides to pursue other activities can be offered to another player. If a player leaves before 4 years without graduating then that scholarship is forfeited until the four years are up. Each school has a total of 13 scholarships that rotate on this basis.

    I’m not sure yet that I completely agree with that rule, but I think it’s a very amiable solution to your side of the argument.

    I’m still not sure how the NCAA is failing these young men. I mean I think the NCAA is exploitive to no end, but I don’t think it’s failing them because of the current one-and-done rule. (*** more to follow in next post)

    Most of the one-and-done kids that currently go to college would simply skip college altogether like they were before. By your logic, if the college experience is a good one for these players to have then isn’t one year better than none years?

    By the way Po, I thought your post #30 was spot on. Although I’m still not sure why you say Cal is “exploiting” the one-and-done rule.

    The concept of exploitation implies that he somehow has an unfair power advantage over the other coaches that he is recruiting against. The process for all coaches is the same. There are strict guidelines as to how many phone calls and texts and visits and scholarships can be made or offered. It’s the same for every coach. All of these coaches can, and all the top programs do, go after the same top recruits each year. They make their phone calls, visit their homes, invite them to their campuses, and then make their pitches as to why a recruit should choose them. At some point in this process the coaches actually LOSE all the power and it is transferred to the players. The players need to decide what is important to them and their families, and their decisions are often influenced severely by “advisors” that are friends or family or AAU coaches, etc. But one thing that no coach can do, not even Cal, is to CLAIM a player. The player actually has to choose the school.

    So, while I’m pretty sure that Cal isn’t going by the book now, just like he wasn’t going by the book at his previous schools, I don’t have any actual proof that he is illegally advantaging himself over other coaches. So while I think he is slimy, I cannot say that he “exploiting” this system until I get the proof.

  66. *** I think that the NCAA exploits college basketball players (and football) at the higher levels because of the relative value that they bring to the schools and NCAA versus what they receive and how they are prohibited by rules and regulations. I also think that the transfer rules are exploitive. I believe this is the proper use for exploitation in the context of college basketball because the NCAA is the governing body and holds the power. They set the rules. They are the judge, jury, and executioner.

    The athletes have very little power once they make the decision to become students at a school. The inequity in power is what creates the “exploitation.”

    There is no inequity of power between the coaches (other than the reputations of the programs and coaches) so Cal cannot exploit the system over other coaches. During the recruiting process the players actually hold the power, so Cal cannot exploit the players.

    If Coach K comes into Alex Pothryess’s living room on Monday and says, “Alex, I think Duke would be a great fit for you. We have a tremendous winning tradition and are the envy of college basketball programs everywhere. I really believe you can be a great player here, and that we can develop you into a great pro prospect. At Duke we really value our institutional goals and we want to see you progress in your education and end up with a degree from Duke University – that is something that you will always have and be proud of even after your long NBA career. Alex, I really hope you choose to come to Duke and help us win our next national championship!”

    And then on Tuesday Coach Cal drops into the Pothryess kitchen and sits down at the table and says, “Mrs. Pothryess, this is the best pie I’ve ever eaten! We are definitely not going to be able to feed your son as well as you you are here at home. But I’ll tell you this, we have a team chef that is great, we have great facilities, and we will make sure your kid comes home to visit you every chance he gets. Now Alex, I think Kentucky would be a great fit for you. We have a tremendous winning tradition and are the envy of college basketball programs everywhere. I really believe you can be a great player here, and that we can develop you into a great pro prospect. As you know in my time at Kentucky we have an amazing track record of getting players drafted in the first round. Some after one year, others after 2, 3, or 4. If your goal is to become a great basketball player and get drafted as high as you can, there is no coaching staff on earth better equipped than my staff at Kentucky. Alex, I really hope you choose to come to Kentucky and help us win our next national championship!”

    Now I know what pitch you are going to buy Po, or Tsao, but the real question is what does the recruit choose? Duke wanted Alex, UK wanted Alex. There is a high likelihood that Alex will go pro within 2 years. Alex chose Kentucky. He didn’t have a gun to his head. He CHOSE Kentucky. Just like Anthony Davis chose UK over UNC, and Michael Kidd-Gilchrist chose UK over Kansas, and just like Zeller chose IU over UNC.

    Please tell me how Cal is “exploiting” that process, when he isn’t the one setting the rules or making the decisions where kids go.

  67. Now if after that meeting in the Pothryess kitchen, Cal cruises over to Alex’s AAU coach’s house and greases him with a cool grand, and then gets out his track phone and shoots a text to Alex’s uncle saying’ “don’t forget to tell pops that I’ll make sure Alex passes all his classes while he’s here, wink, wink”

    Well then that’s exploitation of the process, unethical, and illegal. Sh!t, with Cal’s background that’s probably exactly what’s happening. But that isn’t what we’ve been debating.

  68. How does he do it, Geoff? How does he land so many McDonald’s All-Americans? Is it his charismatic personality? How did he put Derek Rose in a uniform? How did he get Terrence Jones to back out his commitment to the Washington Huskies at the very last possible moment with a mere phone call?

    Are we willing to say he’s the best carnival salesman in coaching? I’m not going for the ethical..or what’s right or wrong with the one-and-done rule. Do you think the school is turning their back on the processes and motivations he’s using. Isn’t that a form of abuse in the system…You just go to programs that are willing to put blinders and earplugs on with regard to your methods to convince a recruit to come. Winning, in the immediacy, has become so important that the programs Calipari ends up don’t care if they are risking sh*t hitting the fan four or five years later? Isn’t that abusing the recruiting process which inevitably allows you to snag the best of the best(in terms of raw talent)?

    Is Calipari just finding programs that are willing to take the risk behind all the methods to put on his mighty talent production?

  69. Absolutely Harvard. But I haven’t heard any allegations of him doing anything wrong in his recruiting at UK. Not saying he hasn’t, but I’m gonna call the guy a bastard for what he DID at Memphis and UMass, not for what some suppose and guess he is doing at UK without any proof or even an allegation.

    I do think it is entirely possible that the system just finally got to a point where it perfectly fit Cal’s personality, abilities, and sales pitch. I think it’s entirely possible that Cal has become so good at turning prospects into draft picks that he no longer needs to break the rules to get the great players. He just says, “look, let’s not bullsh!t around here. You want to go to the NBA, you have to go to a college for a year cuz dems da rules. Where do you want to go? Duke? You’re going to have to work twice as hard to get the same 12 credits and you are going to be surrounded by nerdy, ugly Duke girls. Or how about you come to UK and win a national championship with a couple of the other best players in the country then get drafted in the lottery. And in the meantime you’ll go to class, get your credits to stay eligible, and get favors from some of the hottest, dumbest, daisy-duke-wearing coeds in the SEC?”

    Gotta say that pitch is goIng to sway a lot of kids, without having to break any rules, simply because it all the truth… He has done it.

  70. Geoff; I was not directing post #72 to you alone. I referenced 25 or so posts before making my four comments. While you were obviously the most prodigious poster on this string, there have been a few other participants. If you read through all the posts, you should be able to find the comments that I referred to.

    My last point on this string is this. And Geoff, this is in response to a few of your comments. I believe your argument about the extent of Calipari’s “obligation” is myopic. You sound like the guy sitting in the last row of the upper deck, in the center-field bleachers who is yelling at the umpire, trying to convince him and everyone around you that the catcher just missed the tag at home plate. I believe if everyone shared that perspective and behaved the way Calipari behaves, our society in general, and college basketball in particular, would be much worse off as a result.

    Simply put, it is a matter of honor. I do not believe Calipari has any. I may never be able to prove that to your satisfaction, but then again, I don’t have to.

  71. Harvard…just so that you understand the difference. George Mc Ginnis father, a roofer, fell off a roof and was killed instantly, leaving the Mc Ginnis family fatherless, income-less and with several needing to be taken care of. George, who was one happy camper on the Bloomington campus to that point, decided that he needed to leave and work to take care of his mom and siblings.

    He informed Knight (who had just accepted the IU job) and Knight agreed with the decision. Mc Ginnis stayed at IU until the end of the Spring semester. I am absolutely convinced that for the tragedy. Mc Ginnis would have stayed and finished his degree. (BTW- If I recall correctly at that time freshmen could not play varsity ball).

    The issue for me is not the decision to go to the pros. I think in some cases it is wise they do so since high school wsa probably more than a challenge. My concern is with the complete and utter waste of money to try to educate individuals who have no interest in being educated. We would make much, much better use of the facilities and learning spaces to avoid bringing anyone to the University who is not truly interested in getting an education and a degree, learning a useful profession while taking up space in a public institution whose central mission is to educate. Sometimes I read your “…poor guys forced to live in the back seats of cars on a city street…” followed up by the contradictory bunk in #64, shake my head and realize why my dad used to say “God makes them, and they find each other.” Wise man, my dad.

  72. You dontnhave to prove he doesn’t have any honor Po… Cause I agree with you already to that point. But that has nothing to do with anything I’ve said. You can dislike Calipari as much as you want but that doesn’t mean that everything he does is unethical.

    Similar to Nixon. He was not a great ethical human, but some of his policies were brilliant and helped the nation. Watergate may be his legacy, just like Cal’s legacy will most likely be the scandals, but that doesn’t mean every thing he does is bad.

    In the the two instances I was debating with you….
    1. Whether he owes anything to IU or college basketball OVER his employer
    2. Whether or not he is unethical in recruiting one-and-done players

    …he is not wrong or bad or unethical.

    Any other points you want to make to Cal’s detriment I will most likely agree with.

  73. Actually, Podunker has it right and in its proper perspective. I should have left it there because he obviously needs no help. (My apologies to you Podunker). I thought Geoff would never, ever understand our ‘It’s Indiana” way, and I was right. My bad for thinking insanity can dialogue rationally.

    It’s like trying to talk a jihadist terrorist out of his bomb-jacket. Do it from behind a block of cement a foot thick.

  74. Tsao-

    I’m sure your story about McGinnis is true..Now that you bring it up, I’m having faint recollection in reading that somewhere. But aren’t many kids striving to get to the next level in similar families with severe economic hardship? And don’t these phenomenally talented basketball players also create a lot of interest for the programs, serve as a bit of bragging rights, fuel better TV contracts, and bring a ton of money to the university.

    Don’t high profile prospects like a Gunner Kiel create a lot of buzz and help fill the football stands?

    We can debate forever which kids that leap to the NBA do it for honorable reasons(financial hardship) and which are simply motivated by greed. And what’s wrong with being motivated by a chance to make a quick buck? Doesn’t every robber baron millionaire investor often do the same in the stock market? What segment of poor kids from many populations we have turned are back on really get a shot at the big NBA bucks anyway? Why should we be so judgmental when society has turned their backs on so many the streets these kids have honed their great skill at a game. We’re their great educators on those streets to hone their book skills? Is their modern schools and police forces making their communities safe? One kid slips through the cracks and abuses the college basketball system…Do we really have a right to cry foul? How do you always know the personal angles to every kid’s story?

    Lastly, we cannot deny the buzz and spark in interest a program receives when the top talent looks at your school. We can’t deny the influx of money it creates that will help support the athletic department and the exploding salaries paid to coaches. Even with a kid that leaves in one year, it’s not like a no-win situation for the college. Obviously, it can be a loss for the young man in terms of receiving a valuable education, but did we care about the value their foundational education on the rotting streets some of these kids have called home? I mean, who’s really being exploited?

    I wanted to beat Kentucky because they’re Kentucky…I think we should have given the fans of Indiana and, more importantly, the men wearing cream and crimson that have worked so hard to bring us back, a chance to annihilate their close border rival before leaving for their 9 to 5 jobs. Most our Hoosiers won’t have their NBA moment. Beating a team stacked with NBA prospects is their moment to prove collectively they can be better(or at least be within all the right plays and fateful bounces of a ball) if they play as a team fueled by spirit and energy the opportunity a irreplaceable moment in time. I think our group of Hoosiers deserved that shot.

  75. oops.

    Were there great educators on those streets to hone their book skills?

  76. Tsao. – you are absolutely right that I will never see the world through your eyes, nor the world of basketball through the lens of a by-gone “our indiana” era. You are more than welcome to continue to convince yourself that IU is the lily white model of college basketball history, and that Bobby was ethically and morally unquestionable, and that we will be able to compete for B1G and National Championships by only recruiting 4-year players…

    That’s all fine Tsao, it’s your life. I just hope you can still enjoy IU hoops when none of your expectations for how the program is run are ever met again in your life.

    I will continue to live in reality, and enjoy very much the deep tourney runs we make with players that leave for the NBA when their stock is high…. Just like admirable programs like Duke and UNC and Kansas have been doing ethically for 15 years.

  77. You could always pick my eyes.

    It does not appear I have membership to this Yacht Club…Have you ever sat at a dinner table, tried to input into a conversation, go completely unnoticed, and you end up feeling like ghost? My mom used to dominate conversations at the dinner table..No matter how hard I tried, my words would just bounce off of walls and disappear into thin air. No glance at me while I was speaking(unless it was just a casual unconcerned disconnect)…No response to my attempts to offer meaningful thoughts into a debate..Simply negated as if you weren’t anymore valuable than a hunk of crap before flushed down a toilet. Do you wonder what makes people decide what makes your opinion so unworthy their ears? Is it stamped on your forehead at birth?

    You guys remind me of my mother.

  78. Oh, and great post in #82. To answer one of your questions… No we don’t have the right to judge a kid (as bad) for wanting to make money and support his family when they have never had those opportunities in the family before.

    I don’t know how Tsao feels about that, but Po clearly agrees with us. As he stated in one of his early posts in this thread, it is unconstitutional for 18 years old not to be able to pursue the professional opportunity of the NBA.

  79. Harvard…just now read your post, and you are right…we could debate it forever and, more than likely, each of us would stand pat. BTW, I should have also mentioned that Isiah’s also came from a very, very poor family in Chicago. The recruiting of Isiah was over when she met Knight and he told her he would run Isiah with a strong disciplined hand. That’s all he had to say. She told Isiah he was going to Indiana that same night. I don’t think I’ll ever forget his mom arriving at Assembly Hall dressed in her ‘white sneakers’ to watch her son, “double rope” (11) play and his brother, Lord Thomas showing up in his incandescent yellow shades having people under the baskets squeeze together so he could sit there. They just made him a regular.

    But, Isiah’s decision was made by Betty Thomas’ and the rest of the family’s circumstances. And, what I do remember, is after he left IU, summers following, Isiah driving out of the Dorchester Apartments on his way to class. He was a real student, a real student athlete…even after being voted an All Star at Detroit. His place as a student was never questioned. I do question- more than question, I would not give them a Greek drachma of IU money that takes a seat away from a real and deserving student.

    Those who have absolutely no interest in being educated have no place in an institution of higher education. The argument that it is the way ‘the NBA set it up”, only speaks to the greed and avarice of Lee Stern and his co-conspirators. Why should the overburdened tax payer invest one cent in training Lee Stern’s work force? Let the NBA create a farm system like MLB; or, in the worse of cases finance a system of ‘baseball academies’ as some MLB teams now do in the Dominican Republic and Venezuela; as the soccer leagues in Europe and Latin America (i.e. Barcelona’s famous school) where they train, educate and make sure future players are properly fed and their health taken care of.

    Let the NBA do the same in the inner city. Build schools and educate their players, pay their families ‘living stipends’. See Harvard…the problem is that we do not rely on competitive self-interest capitalism to force greedy institutions like the NBA to contribute to our communities. And, in the name of our illuminated, guilt conscious ‘liberalism’ we shed tears, give each other a hug. buy the $100 second balcony seat and allow the Lee Sterns’ to get away with it because ….we love to watch the blood run when the gladiators maul each other.

    A hard truth to handle, isn’t it? Think about that the next time the Pacers, Bulls, Cubs, Vikings ask for the ‘public partnership’ to build ‘their’ stadium or requests a tax break.

    Yeah…I at least want the students in the seats you and I pay for to be real students and serve all of us, not just to pay for Lee Stern’s league and Jack Nicholson’s entertainment.

  80. First of all, not that you care, but it’s David Stern. Not sure who Lee is…

    Second, I may be wrong, and Dustin please correct me if I am, but it is my understanding that athletic scholarships are paid 100% from athletic department revenues. Meaning zero percent from tax payer dollars. I know it is true of most (if not all) state schools and certainly all private schools, but I guess I’m not positive it’s true of IU.

    If it is true it negates about 50% of your last argument Tsao… Sorry.

    As far as Isaiah goes, well I’m glad you can find it in your heart to justify the IU athletes’ motives and circumstances. Thank you for so clearly painting yourself as biased and unreliable in this discussion.

  81. Geoff,
    In the case of Indiana that is almost entirely correct. I say almost entirely, because you’ll remember that USA Today published a database last month showing how much each athletic department was subsidized by the university. IU’s athletic department is subsidized on a miniscule scale compared to the size of its overall budget. The university doesn’t split the overall utility bill for the campus and pays for the it itself, but utilities were factored into the total budget for the USA Today study. My point being, if you want to nitpick, since money is fungible, taxpayers do have some stake in keeping the lights on at Memorial Stadium, Assembly Hall and Cook Hall and therefore are paying “even one cent” toward Indiana athletes being on campus.
    But again, that’s if you’re being nitpicky.
    I’m going to reserve my opinion here for the time being, but I’m interested, Tsao, in how you believe the NCAA could use “competitive self-interest capitalism” to force the NBA to no longer use college basketball as its farm system. From what I can tell, competitive self-interest capitalism is the reason they are doing that. (And I don’t say that to knock competitive self-interest capitalism. In fact I would say the major economic debate in this country is not whether or not people believe in competitive self-interest capitalism, because the overwhelming majority do. The debate is really about what form it should take and how regulated or unregulated it should be. But I digress.) What could the NCAA legally and ethically do to force the NBA to create a more extensive minor league system that would not be cutting off its nose to spite its own face? Obviously, it could raise academic standards and that could have some effect on the issue, but at some point, that even becomes an unfair barrier to entry considering how many schools and how many athletes would be affected.
    I have my opinions on the one-and-done issue in and of itself, but one thing I think is a major concern is that consternation over this issue could lead to an overreaction that harms people it has nothing to do with. My point being, do you realize how few players we’re talking about when it comes to one-and-dones? Ten guys. There are 10 freshmen in the entire country who are early entries in this year’s NBA Draft. There are 340 teams in Division 1. 13 players per team, so we’re talking 4,420 total players in the league every year. 10 of them leave after freshman year.
    My point is this. Let’s say you go crazy on academic standards and set 2.75 or so as the GPA limit to play Division I sports. Well, there’s a poor kid somewhere in Louisiana with no intentions of ever playing in the NBA who went to an underfunded school, pulled a 2.5 and just needs to go to college and have it paid for. He’s good enough to play low-major D-1 ball at, let’s say, Stetson, and that’s his ticket to an education, but that’s harder for him to come by based on a rule that was all about making sure Anthony Davis doesn’t “make a farce out of the education system.” Sure, you could send them all to JUCO for a year, but you’re going to overrun that system. You could send them all to D2, but they’re probably not going to get as good of an overall education.
    And if you just say, “NCAA schools will not recruit one-and-dones.” Well, what does that actually mean? There’s probably 50 kids who go to school every year who think they’re one-and-done material and only 8-12 actually are. So how do you set that up exactly? Do you say you won’t accept Top 10 recruits? Isn’t that discrimination? Do you require them to stay at least two years in college? That’s generally fine, as baseball does that, but the NBA wouldn’t be one bit upset about that either and it wouldn’t force the league to create a larger farm system at all.
    I don’t say this to say you must be wrong, but I’m sincerely interested. How exactly would you use self-interest capitalism to effectively require the NBA to create a more expansive farm system to therby end the one-and-done phenomenon?

  82. Isaiah = 5′-9″ Washington Husky

    Isiah = 6′-1″ HOOSIER and….

    * 2× NBA Champion (1989–1990)
    * NBA Finals MVP (1990)
    * 12× NBA All-Star (1982–1993)
    * 2× NBA All-Star Game MVP (1984, 1986)
    * 3× All-NBA First Team (1984–1986)
    * 2× All-NBA Second Team (1983, 1987)
    * NBA All-Rookie First Team (1982)
    * NCAA Champion (1981)
    * NCAA Final Four Most Outstanding Player (1981)
    * Consensus NCAA All-American First Team (1981)
    * J. Walter Kennedy Citizenship Award (1987)
    * NBA’s 50th Anniversary All-Time Team
    * No. 11 Retired by the Detroit Pistons

  83. Freedom is the best policy. But freedom comes with responsibility. Allow legal adults to apply for the NBA draft. If they get drafted and choose to become professionals, they have made a choice to either delay or avoid getting a college education. That’s their right. If they don’t get drafted, they retain the option of signing an athletic scholarship, playing college ball, and pursuing a college education. All the NCAA needs to do in order to fix the problem is to change the rules so that when a college team loses a player early to the NBA or to flunking out, the school loses a scholarship.

    The solution to the problem is simple. The reason the NBA does not do this is because they are selfish and the courts have not forced them to do it. NBA team owners are not stupid. As someone else posted, they a) want another year to watch and determine if a young player has what it takes, thus reducing their financial risk, and b) they don’t want the hassle of dealing with the problems that come with immature young men that are suddenly flush with cash and have a lot of free time. So they schlep the responsibility for providing an extra year of maturity out to the colleges.

  84. Po – your post is pretty good although I’d say that they aren’t exactly “schlepping” those kids onto college campuses… That is precisely what college campuses bring in every year (immature 18 yr olds is 30+% of their demographic) and the schools that get them are thrilled.

    And obviously it is more complicated than you make it out to be, but your solution is a good starting point, and your perspective is needed.

  85. It’s all rather perverse if you ask me. I wonder why airheads even go to the games to watch players that really have nothing invested in their school. Who is Calipari trying to kid? The University of Kentucky didn’t win a damn thing. The players that go their could care less about the name on sign when you get to the campus grounds; it might as well have dollar signs etched into the stone as far as their concerned.

    The average student goes to cheer on these egomaniac athletes with their ticket already punched to all the materialistic desires ever imagined on a teenagers shopping list…What are they clapping for? Do they really believe they are playing for Kentucky? Does this student in the stands putting themselves in a lifetime of debt to attend college have anything in common with this circus setting up in their arena? Couldn’t it just as well be the traveling circus of stars headed up by the ‘Ringmaster of the One-and-Done?

    Come to think of it…Nobody lost to Kentucky. Kentucky didn’t win sh*t. Ten trapeze artists that play wherever the ringmaster books a new venue to erect his tent are only passing through.

    Kentucky means nothing to these high-flyers. Here’s an idea…Let’s just open a McDonald’s University. Let Calipari build a permanent tent and put up a couple baskets…Their basketball team could be called the Happy Meal Trotters. They tour around to traditional colleges where they only play in the exhibition games…they dominate, they perform funny shenanigans(e.g. go around pulling down shorts of every slow white guard with silly names like Jordy), etc, etc. You get a degree in one year. Every class you enroll is geared toward how to manage a bankroll. When you graduate, you earn a Ronald McDonald gold-plated clown nose and a board game called Monopoly.

    When you get to the NBA, then things get really serious and you start to care about the name on your jersey…sorta.

  86. Does this not look like a ‘Jordy’ that wouldn’t enjoy having his pants pulled down by some Happy Meal TrottersTrotters? If Calipari coached at Indiana would he be a Hoosier Clarion?

  87. I truly think Calipari is living the dream….Now we have motive to go along with the crimes(wearing shorts around your ankles).

  88. I tend to kick up my game on Fridays. A song dedication for Hoosier Clarion.

    I’m ready for some one-on-one, Geoff. Still think I can take ya.

    Late Breaking News: NCAA just announced investigation of Calipari for illegal gifts sent to recruits.

  89. I’ve always taken pleasure in the fact that Kaintuck can’t find a decent player within their state borders while Indiana stocks their recruiting classes with lots of homegrowns. I believe Remy was the first player from Kaintuck to play here in 40 years. The Mildcats ALWAYS depend on Hoosier players.

    That was one of the major knocks on Mike Davis. He cast a blind eye toward Indiana talent as head coach.

  90. Podunker,
    Here would be a counter argument though. You say freedom is the best policy. Well, doesn’t it infringe on the freedom of the player if his coach is motivated by his personal interest when advising the player on whether it’s a good idea to leave early? Haven’t you taken away one of his advisors by giving said advisor an ulterior motive to make him stay? That’s part of the process for every player considering an early jump to the NBA or NFL for that matter. They sit down with their coach and ask them whether they think that’s a good idea, and they do that on the assumption that their coach will be honest with them. In this case, though, the player will have to know that his coach is biased, so he’ll know regardless of the coach’s answer that he has to find another advisor.
    Based on your ideas, I would presume you’d be OK with the baseball model, in which you can go early, but then you become eligible again as a junior. I think that’s rational. But I think it’s dangerous to start assigning penalties to coaches whose crime is making their players desirable for professional employment before they complete their degrees.

  91. There really is no justification for denying an adult their freedom or legal right to seek employment in their chosen field. If you want paternalism, you must be willing to forfeit freedom. If you want freedom, you must be willing to take some risk.

    If the player is free to stay in school if he’s not drafted high enough or at all, then the coach’s motives and advice become less important. If the player can opt not to accept an NBA contract and never becomes a “pro,” it forces the NBA teams to do their homework more thoroughly before wasting a draft pick on a player that is not going to sign.

    It’s not the college coach getting penalized, it’s the schools. And if the NCAA passes the rule as I suggest, the NBA will eliminate the one-and-done rule, so that it will be less likely that colleges will lose a player early to the NBA and therefore a scholarship.

    We could spend hours designing the new rules, but the point is, it’s not a hard problem to solve. Either the NBA eliminates the rediculous one and done rule, or players are allowed the freedom to choose, depending on which opportunity they see as being better for them.

    Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. The current rules are not quite in sync with that sentiment. They need to be changed. Frankly, I’m surprised some lawyer has not challenged the NBA on behalf of some young man.

  92. Podunker,
    I see where you’re coming from and I definitively agree that who want to go pro straight out of high school should have that opportunity. But I can tell you with absolute 100 percent certainty that if you were to begin losing scholarships for players going pro early the coaches would absolutely lose their minds in protest and would very much consider that a penalty against them. I’m not kidding. There is not a coach I’ve ever covered even from a peripheral standpoint, clean, dirty or otherwise, who wouldn’t absolutely freak out over such a rule.
    The reason being, of course, is that coaches live in constant fear of losing their jobs. The only way you keep your job is by winning. The only way you win is if you recruit great talent, and the more scholarships you lose, the harder that is to do.

  93. Dustin, what you describe is called a “conflict of interests” and the basketball coaching ranks are one of the last places I’d go to find someone who can give due justice to their role as advisor/mentor to the ball player when those interest do conflict.

  94. Conflict of interest, Tsao, very true. I love how I couldn’t come up with that when I use that phrase basically every day. I guess your point is that there’s already a conflict of interest, so what’s the difference, but I would think this would make this so much worse.

  95. Maybe…I’m not disagreeing with you, as much as I am aware of how basketball has ballooned into one huge ‘racket’ and coaching taking a disproportionate place and undeserved value in our lives.

    There is a difference. And, hopefully a guy like you, (I remember when my granfather used to tell me stories that always ended with a ‘moral’) is just the one who makes it clear to everyone.

    These stories maybe point out it is (or should be) about teaching kids a game in a healthy environment, or about a teacher/coach who actually cares about doing it to open some new possibilities for someone. I was lucky, I owed a lot to one of these guys.

    Then, I watch the NBA and compare the relative value (actually lack thereof) against, say our service families; 5-6 deployments, 1500 days away from their families, meeting their kids one year after they are born … because they want to serve…and then I don’t think so much of the ‘entitled existence of some of the non-heroes and question whether what we are doing is creating illusions to feed the beast.

  96. Tsao – what the hell are you talking about? Was there value in baseball in the 1950’s? Weren’t Mantle and Williams and Mays and Aaron bigger heroes to Americans than any NBA player is today? I wasn’t alive, but from my histical perspective those guys were worshipped… This has been going on forever in some form or another.

    Comparing sport’s value to the sacrifices that military members make is unfair. None of our jobs have the same relative meaning, or value, or risk… What is your point? So are we all now spoiled, or worthless, or over-valued? What…?

    Many peoples’ jobs, and lives for that matter, are monotonous or plain ol crappy and sports, and other forms of entertainment, provide the great value of being a diversion.

    Some people just have grown up with sports, or a particular sport, in their blood and need it like they need oxygen.

    So they provide a mental-health value to a lot of people. But they also provide Billions upon Billions of dollars to the economy and thousands upon thousands of jobs to people, including veterans, so they can support their kids they just met. Whether its the guy parking your car at the arena, the administrative staff of the teams, the ad executive selling air time, or the owner of the restaurant just outside The Garden.

    Stop being so melodramatic. Sports are now, like they were 50 years ago, great entertainment for the masses. They have value now, just like they did 70 years ago during the War… Sports will never compare favorably to military service, but there are few professions that will. And lastly, just because there are a few athletes or coaches that don’t meet your ridiculous (and biased) standards doesn’t mean their isnt an overwhelming majority of college athletes that aren’t learning extremely valuable life lessons that they will carry on to help them become good family men/women and contributing members of society once they finish their college careers.

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