Noah Vonleh commits to Indiana

New Hampton coach Pete Hutchins confirmed a report from Evan Daniels of that Noah Vonleh has committed to Indiana. Vonleh, a 6-foot-9 power forward with perimeter skills, took an official visit to Indiana this weekend. He is the No. 7 player in the nation according to More to come.

UPDATE: More on Vonleh

Indiana has apparently closed out its 2013 class with a top 10 player.

Noah Vonleh, a 6-foot-9, 222-pound forward from Haverhill, Mass., and New Hampton Prep school in New Hampshire, verbally committed to Indiana on Saturday according to his coach Pete Hutchins. Evan Daniels of originally reported the commitment.

Vonleh is the No. 7 player in the Class of 2013 according to He had been a part of the Class of 2014 before reclassifying earlier this year. He had numerous other scholarship offers, including those from Arizona, Florida, Kansas, North Carolina, Ohio State, Syracuse and UCLA.

“They did a very good job of recruiting him throughout the process,” Hutchins said late Saturay night. “He felt very comfortable with them I think they demonstrated to him they do an excellent job of player development. I think the future is bright in terms of the direction of the program.”

Vonleh has power forward size and strength but can also handle the basketball and shoot from beyond the 3-point arc, as he displayed during the Adidas Invitational in Indianapolis this summer. That would allow him to seamlessly fit into the hole that will be left by senior forward Christian Watford, although Vonleh is certainly more coveted than Watford was at this stage.

“He’s going to have an opportunity to play multiple positions the way they’ve used Christian Watford as a 4 who spends a lot of time on the perimeter,” Hutchins said. “I think they’ve sold him on that from a position standpoint. He’s certainly a dominant inside player and very effective on the perimeter. That aspect of his game continues to improve.”

That, of course, is the reason he was so coveted. Hutchins said he averaged 16 points and nine rebounds for New Hampton Prep a year ago.

“His overall skill set is very diverse,” Hutchins said. “He can do everything, but hes a very elite rebounder and an elite inside presence. I would assume coach (Tom) Crean will kind of simplify for him what his role is. I would assume he’s going to be a perimeter wing, a 4/3 wing. He’s capable of playing multiple positions on the perimeter the way Indiana plays Christian Watford. I wouldn’t be surprised if I saw him coming off ball screens, but at the same time, I’m sure they’ll post him often. I wouldn’t be surprised to see him grab rebounds off the backboard and then take the ball down into the front court. “


  1. Dustin,

    should we be expecting another Scooptalk considering the class coming in now with Vonleh? Always look forward to them.

  2. What great news. Figured this was coming, and I am little surprised that the services thought he would last into the spring. Almost have to pinch yourself on a daily basis as a Hoosier fan these days. Welcome to the best program in college sports Noah!

    Now my only job Wednesday night is to make sure one of my buddies doesn’t blow out his knee.

  3. I think that on top of being preseason #1 again next year we will also be the most athletic team in the country…. Yogi, Sheehey, Vic(?), Troy(!), Vonleh, Perea, Hollowell, Stan, Davis(?), REMY…am I forgetting any? If by some act of God Zeller returns… But assuming he doesn’t I just named 9 or 10 superior athletes on the roster.

    This year is going to be great. But it’s also comforting to know that if some bad injuries happen or we get upset in the Elite 8, that we will come back with teams just as strong the next few years.

  4. O M G!! 1 of the worst days of the year as a Hoosier fan, just ended better than I would have EVER imagined!! Fan”F$%*&ing”tastic!! The 2013 class is now BETTER than this years, IMHO. We have truly arrived now!!!!!!!!!!!

  5. Call me crazy, but I’l almost looking forwars to next years team more than this one(not really, but…. Ofcourse a lot can happen between now & then, but if all goes as planned or even close to it, we will be absolutely loaded with athleticly gifted, long, lean players. Perea, Vonleh, Oladipo, Sheehey, Williams, Ferrel, Robinson,Abel,Fischer, Jurkin. The days of worrying about front line depth & strength will be looooong gone. Luke Fischer, I’m told, is a diamond in the rough waiting to bloom. Its unlikely all 6 committs for next year will actually be here, but I’m hoping Fischer still comes here. It feels soooo good to be back in the conversation again. Every conversation that matters, & to look forward to seasonS-plural. The program is back now.

  6. Whoops-I forgot Jeremy Hollowell, who while he looked very green the other night, also showed the talent,length, agility & versatilty that makes a difference at this level. I was encouraged!

  7. chris k-

    I agree, but I don’t think Hollowell looked all that “green.” I was very impressed with Hollowell. He shows many the traits a Remy Abell..Multi-skilled with a solid looking frame. A more natural shooting stroke than Remy(release reminded me a bit of Jamarcus Ellis)..A very cool customer that appears to have some court savvy beyond his years. It will be interesting to watch him develop and gain confidence as the season progresses.

  8. Great news to help erase the CKW debacle today.

    Remember you heard it here first: I think Yogi might be a one and done who will head to the League in the spring.

  9. Harvard/Chris – on Hollowell… I guess it depends on your definition of green. I thought that he certainly looked like he could contribute at this level right away, in that sense he didn’t look green. But it definitely took him a half to catch up to the speed of the game and work out his nerves, so in that sense he was green. Even if it only lasted for 1 half of 1 game. My guess is that it will happen again against Georgia, and then again against UNC, and then again in his first home B1G game, and in his first road B1G game, etc etc…. In other words each time there is a step up in talent or intensity he will struggle for just a bit to get acclimated.

    He seems to me to be a fairly cerebral player, which can be good and bad. He didn’t struggle to be in the right place the other night, but when he got the ball in his hands you could see the wheels start turning. He was very good around the basket in traffic when instincts just kick in, but on an island on the perimeter it wasn’t smooth. His 2 jump shots were… Wow… Brutal. If we didn’t already know better we’d think he should never shoot again. But certainly, as he gets more comfortable that flow will come and he’s so gifted that he’ll become a big and consistent contributor.

  10. So now that we’re talking again about future teams, I’ll throw this out there too. Next year I could see us being thin in the backcourt, even if Yogi stays, and the following year I could see us being thin in both the backcourt and bigs, unless Yogi stays his term.

    2013 – Vic and Zeller could both declare and Hulls graduates.. This leaves us with a backcourt of Yogi, Robinson, and Abell. That’s it, unless you want to throw in Marlin. There is also a chance that Creek plays another year, and in this scenario it’s basically necessary and therefore more likely. As Aruss said, there is a chance Yogi is gone, even tho I think it’s unlikely, that would almost put us in desperation mode in the backcourt. I guess you could be worse than Creek, Abell, and Stan as your only 3 rotation guards, but it certainly will be THE weakness of the team, and I don’t know that Remy can be a pure PG.

    2014 – here’s where I see it more likely that Yogi leaves, and barring a medical redshirt Vic is definitely gone, as is Creek. So now we have Abell, Stan, and Blackmon… again you could do worse, but this scenario makes me feel like we need Lyle or Russell, or some rising PG recruit that isn’t on our board right now. In the front court we could have similar issues with our bigs… With Zeller almost certainly gone, and it being fairly likely that Vonleh could be too, we now have Fisher and maybe Jurkin. Sure there are teams in worse shape than that, but this group is begging for the addition of Cliff Alexander or another immediate-impact big.

    Obviously we are set for the future with wings and tweeners – Hollowell, Williams, Davis, Hartman/Etherington (doubt both), Sheehey, and guys like Perea and Vonleh that can play bigger than they are. I guess what I’m looking at here are teams built similarly to Crean’s at Marquette.

    Not that it’s bad to ave a bunch of 6’6″ to 6’8″ athletes out on the court, I am just of the opinion that its always best to have your strengths at PG and C – those are the 2 most efficient positions in basketball. They either get you good shots or take high % shots themselves. They are the 2 positions most necessary to getting out and running so your athletes can get transition buckets. Rebound -> outlet -> decision -> bucket…. The athlete doesn’t touch it until the end.

    So yeah, I think as long as Yogi, Zeller, and Vonleh stay we are in GREAT shape, but if all of them are cleared out by the start of the 2014 season we better have picked up a couple more blue-chippers in that class, at those specific positions, or we’ll be vulnerable.

    Ok, back to enjoying the ass-whoopings we’ll be handing out this year.

  11. Probably – and I don’t really have any concerns, given recent history, that he be able to sign top notch guys. I just wonder if his underlying philosophy is to gather interchangeable wing-sized athletes, or if having Cody has made him covet that iconic centerpiece… I don’t doubt we’ll have as much talent as anyone in the country, I just hope it will always be as evenly distributed through the positions as it is now.

  12. I wonder what Trey is thinking these days…

    “Damn, I blew it.”
    “I wonder if they’ll take me back?”
    “That blue T-shirt was so freaking itchy!”
    “At least I probably won’t have to play IU until the tournament…”

  13. You really think Oladipo & or Ferrell could leave after this year?? Wow, if so, I’m sure gonna’ love this season, cuz’ they’ll have to have an amazing year to drive their draft stock high enough to consider coming out. That won’t happen, but I too wondered if we’ll be too thin in the backcourt next yuear, but of all those swingmen, a couplke will have good enough handles to carruy us. I hope Either way, I’d rather be thin there than the frontcourt. Blackmon will be here as well, remember.

  14. well, in 2014. Guess that won;t help us, but again, this i so far in th future, who knows what will happen.

  15. I have faith that Crean has ahold of the scholarship situation, but I’ll be disappointed if he has to force someone out to make room.

    As I understand it: We can oversign by one, so we need to have room for five LOIs from loss of existing scholarships. Jordy, CW and Elston are gone. So we need room for two LOIs from loss of existing, non-senior scholarship players. I suspect that Zeller is EITHER gone to NBA OR will pay his own way if he stays (no inside info, just my expectation/tea leaf reading).

    So, Coach Crean needs to expect the loss of one other existing, non-senior scholarship.
    Possibilities include:
    Sheehey, Oladipo, or Yogi going pro (would dearly miss each of them, but I would have no problem with it). Based on VERY little in season data, seems like Yogi would be a first round pick. Oladipo does not seem there yet nor does SHeehey.
    Etherington–either by transfer (do not like it) or by paying his own in-state tuition (no problem if he and his family can do it.
    Hartman–decides to play elsewhere or be a non-scholarship player. Don;t like either of these options.

  16. Creek along with the 3 seniors will be gone. Creek’s scholarship won’t be renewed. Time to move on. We’ll have better talent than him. Still don’t see Zeller going pro after 2. One of the next year’s recruits won’t set foot on campus. One will go to prep school. That leaves one oversign. Oladipo is and won’t be ready for NBA, but may make a move. I could see Yogi going pro, but my gut tells me he likes the college scene and wants an education. So someone will transfer to free up the last scholarship. All is just my humble opinion.

  17. I will begin by saying I am ecstatic. I will also apologize to those who think we should only celebrate this and not speculate as to what may happen in 2013-14 regarding scholarships.

    By my calculations we will lose Hulls, Watford, and Elston. That puts IU at 10 scholarships. With 6 verbal commits for 2013 (Vonleh, Williams, Robinson, Fisher, Davis, and Hartman) that means that some combination of 3 players will not be on scholarship or a part of the program next season. Here is a list of those players and the year they will be in next year with a little commentary as to what I think could happen with each.

    1.) C Cody Zeller (Junior)– of all the 16 possible remaining players he is the one I am sure we all would most prefer to be back, but also the one most likely to leave. My guess is that there is a 85% or more chance he makes the leap to the NBA. If Cody wants to come back there is no question he will have a scholarship. Some have speculated he would pay his own way, but I doubt it. You just never see that with top level players. Nor should they in my opinion. That means his is most likely the 4th scholarship to open up.

    2.) G/F Victor Oladipo (Senior) — there is some chance VO could turn pro but I think there is probably less than 50% chance of that happening. I would actually put the chances at 33% chance of him going pro or less. If he decides to come back there is no chance he won’t have a scholarship.

    3.) G Yogi Ferrell (Soph.) — it is awful early to make any guesses on Ferrell based on 1 regular season game, but I do think some NBA team would be happy to take him if he declared for the pros after this season. I also think it would be at best a late 1st or early to mid 2nd rounder that would be his top end selection. Coming back for a second year could only improve his draft stock. Still there is some chance he would go pro. I will put this estimate of going pro at 20% or less. Again, just like with Cody and VO, if he comes back he will be one of the 13 scholarship players.

    4.) Will Sheehey G/F (Senior) — there has been some speculation that if he had a great year this year he might consider going pro; however remote that may be. Let us put this at 5% or less. If Will comes back he too will be one of the scholarship players.

    5.) Hanner Perea F (Soph.) — prior to the suspension and foot injury there was probably some chance Hanner could have thought about going pro. There is no question he has a pro body and would get drafted if he went into the draft. Probably only as a mid to late 2nd round flyer by a team, but still he would likely get drafted on potential alone. However, the injury and suspension have probably reduced the already small chance for his raw talent develops enough to try for the pros. Thus, I would put his chances at going pro as being less than 5% just like with Sheehey. Yet another player using up one of IU’s 13 scholarships for next year.

    6.) Jeremy Hollowell F (Soph.) — I can’t see him going pro and I cannot see him transferring either. I would have to think the chances of him being an IU scholarship player in 2013 as being 95%+ chance. My only concern might be does he take a look at the numbers and see a situation where Perea, Vonleh, William, Sheehey, and VO are all ahead of him at forward and he wants to go elsewhere to seek more playing time. If so, then maybe he should be in the 80% range.

    7.) Peter Jurkin C (Soph.) — (see Hollowell explanation)

    8.) Noah Vonleh F (Freshman) — assuming he signs, he will have one of the 13 scholarships. Chances of him being on scholarship at IU next year 90%+.

    9.) Troy Williams F (Freshman) — (see Vonleh explanation)

    10.) Luke Fischer F/C (Freshman) — (see Vonleh and Williams explanation adding I think he is even more likely to sign and is at 95%+)

    11.) Stanford Robinson G (Freshman) — (see above explanation with Vonleh, Williams, and Fischer — he is also in the Fischer boat of 95%+ chance of coming)

    ***From here we shift from the question of “will this player consider going pro” to the question of “will this player choose to transfer or revoke his verbal commitment”:

    12.) Devin Davis F (Freshman) — I really cannot see Davis de-commiting. I suppose he could choose to go to prep school and wait for Vonleh to be one and done and for Hanner to go pro after his sophomore season then Davis could come to IU to fill the spot. Still I think he could contribute at the 10th to 13th man next year and he has to talent to be that “spark/glue guy” off the bench and the mentality to be willing to accept that role. I would put his chances as being one of IU’s 2013 scholarship player at 85%+

    13.) Remy Abell G (Junior) — he could transfer, but I’m not sure why. The backcourt depth is that deep even if Yogi and VO are back. Even if Robinson passes him on the depth chart he is still the #4 guard and will get time in that role. He seems to embrace his role as a backup and plays with tons of energy off the bench and has improved a lot over his first season and into his second season. I expect that to continue and I expect to see him at IU again in 2013. Chances of him being a scholarship player is probably 95%+.

    14.) Mo Creek G (Senior) — Mo will possibly have graduated and will be a candidate to have the same thing happen to him that happened to Roth this year. Nobody wants this to happen after seeing how hard he has fought to come back. But if he graduated maybe he would see his pro career is not likely to materialize and that he would want to get a graduate degree. Would his area of study be best completed at another school? If so it may behoove him to transfer and I think he could do so without sitting out. Still, I think Mo has progressed enough this year that he would be an excellent backcourt contributor next year. Thus, his chances of returning has to be roughly 70% or so.

    ***Now we get into rank speculation as to who will be rounding out the rest of the roster. Marlin, R. Smith, Wayer, and Howard who are all underclassmen walk-ons would probably be back in the same role next season.

    15.) Austin Etherington G/F (Junior) — it is simply hard to see Etherington getting much playing time unless Yogi and VO go pro and Creek decides to transfer to pursue his grad degree. I suspect Etherington will be faced with the choice of transferring or opting to become a walk on. It just seems like he needs to get a lot of things to happen in order for him to even be the #13 scholarship guy. At best I see Etherington and his situation as a toss up to being on scholarship. I would put it at about 40% if I had to be more specific.

    16.) Colin Hartman G/F (Freshman) — Hartman is in a similar spot to Etherington. I’m not sure which one of the two would make the better college player. I bet Purdue wished they had both of these last two guys. Could Hartman go the prep school route and maybe he just looks at the numbers and says, “Wow! I don’t see myself playing much at IU for a couple of years.” I would probably put Hartman being at IU at a pure 50/50 coin toss.

    I know this is approaching the longest post in Hoosier Scoop history but let’s try to summarize what I just posted:

    I think Zeller will go pro. That means IU needs a few additional items to happen before they can get all 6 verbal commits to sign and become scholarship players. I think the players most in question will be Creek, Hartman, and Etherington. I believe this makes the 13 scholarships next year look like this:

    1.) Victor Oladipo G/F Sr.
    2.) Will Sheehey G/F Sr.
    3.) Remy Abell G Jr.
    4.) Yogi Ferrell G So.
    5.) Hanner Perea F So.
    6.) Peter Jurkin C So.
    7.) Jeremy Holloway F So.
    8.) Noah Vonleh F Fr.
    9.) Troy Williams F Fr.
    10.) Luke Fischer C Fr.
    11.) Stanford Robinson G Fr.
    12.) Devin Davis F Fr.

    13.) left to be taken by Creek (SR.), Etherington (JR.), or Hartman (FR.)

    How does everyone else see the scholarship situation shaking out?

  18. I laugh loudly any time I see Oladipo mentioned as leaving early. Hoosier fans are supposedly extremely knowledgeable about basketball but they must lose sight of Vic’s weaknesses because of his amazing athleticism. The NBA is full of athleticism and that alone can’t get you drafted. You have to be extremely skilled offensively and defensively. Vic simply does not have an NBA game at all at this point. He is a poor man’s Shannon Brown and Brown worked very hard to carve out a niche in the league. Vic is a great college player and I root for him like crazy, but a future pro he is not.

  19. Nice organiztion & presentation.

    I just don’t see Cody leaving yet. Think he’s having too much fun and stick it out another yr.

    Otherwide I will echo Aruss – Wow

  20. Sorry, one more comment. With so much potential of so many players on this years team I would think it would be harder for an individual to get the points/attention required to advance to the next level..? Can see games where 8 players get 10-12 points each…?.

  21. In reply to the league, I agree that the chances of VO going pro early and being successful in that jump are seemingly small. I think an extra year of development will help him and his draft stock a lot. His main area of improvement will have to be in ball handling and developing a jump shot of 18+ feet that goes in with consistency. That being said, lots of players get bad advice and make the leap to the NBA a year early. All it takes is one scout and then an agent that assure VO he is going to make it and boom the mistake is made and he is gone.

    So, I wasn’t suggesting it was a good idea for VO to turn pro just that it was within the realm of possibility. I think assessing a chance of 20 to 33% chance is probably about right. If you look at previous borderline draft candidates and when they chose to go pro early I would guess that 1 in 5 make the decision to go pro a year to early pretty routinely.

  22. Ron I think you make a good point about the playing time and the resulting decrease in minutes for players since the rotation is possibly 10-12 deep in upcoming seasons. That does have to reduce the chances of a player making the leap to the NBA. I am sure we don’t like to ever look to UNC or other schools as an example, but the Tar Heels have had numerous seasons under Smith/Williams,etc. where they had that deep of a rotation and probably resulted in a few players not leaving early that otherwise would have.

  23. Beard- yes thanks, I wasn’t responding to your post, I was just making a statement based upon a lot of posts I’ve seen recently where IU fans just keep assuming Vic will go pro this year. And yes his ball handling and long range shooting is what he has to work on and my guess is people have been saying that about him since the 5th grade, sometimes you are who you are as a player and no matter how much he works he isn’t going to become a Jordan Hulls fundamentally. Players improve all the time and I think Vic can continue to improve but things like ball handling and shooting at a certain point are more about what you simply can’t do than the other way around. It’s like golf, if you have to think about it you probably can’t do it consistently.

  24. Beard…that is the most intelligent speculative statement (#23) reasoning through the possibilities and filtering them to logical probabilities I’ve ever read on Hoosier Scoop or anywhere else. Wow, clarity and facts. It also presents the non-intended outcomes none of us really wants to think about which would (could?) take something away from all these good news. Congratulations!

    I really think every ‘comment’ has a signature ‘give’ and this one (I speculate) is no exception. I could be wrong, but, if not, your clarity does not surprise me. If you’re not, it just proves another point…sometimes I don’t know what the hell I’m talking about.

    Either way Beard. I hope you keep looking in here from time to time. We can use reason hand in hand with IU passion, without a watershed of ego and fanaticism.

  25. Totally agree league. I think you are right at some point you become what your play says you are. I would guess that 95% or more of the pro players are at their level of shooting by the time they are in college with only slight improvement coming in their first year or two in the NBA. I’m not sure who I can think of that really improved their outside games that needed to do so. Jordan obviously comes to mind. Rondo needs to and has not done it yet. Wilt, Shaq, and Howard all cannot shoot a free throw even though it would have dramatically improved their careers and scoring averages. I would say learning to shoot has to be the hardest skill to improve in basketball. Will VO be one of those very few that mange to do so? Who knows but I hope he proves to be in that category.

  26. Hartman will not go to IU. Etherington will be Capobianco’d aka asked to transfer. Davis will not go to IU. Zeller will not go pro, Oladipo will not go pro. I will argue that given the minutes Yogi will be the catalyst for this IU squad more so even than Zeller and I agree that Yogi could be a 1 and done. His family has been working him towards the NBA since he was 6. If he is a top 15 pick, he’ll go. He definitely has a chance to be a top 15 pick no doubt. Any time a future nba pg is the starter for the #1 ranked team in the country the opportunity for greatness is at their finger tips, Yogi won’t miss his chance.

  27. Beard I don’t know how much of a B1G fan you are but Shannon Brown from MSU (now in the NBA) is who I have always compared Vic to. Brown was a freak athlete for Izzo and Izzo improved Brown’s shooting a lot in his 3 years there, once Brown became a decent shooter the league took notice. Once in the nba Brown struggled and yet was able to become a decent 3 pt shooter, however his strength is still unbelievable athleticism and defense. We could probably say this about every IU player in the rotation now but it is definitely true for Vic- if he was on the IU teams of 2-3 years ago and was able to get 35 mins a night and 15-20 shots he’d have a lot of opportunity for individual success. With this current deep team he’ll never be asked to shoot it more than 7-8 times a game and won’t really be allowed to play through his mistakes, when you can sub in guys like Hollo, Shee, etc.

  28. Wow!! Wow!! From post #23 through #30 that is the most intelligent, enjoyable exchange of knowledgeable posters I have ever read on the Scoop.

    That’s all…sometime it is just good to shut up, read, enjoy and listen.

    I completely agree that Oladipo need to learn some very basic fundamentals as mentioned and ‘breath-in playing within himself’. Athletically he is an original with tremendous charisma, but needs to bring in his game at the next level.

    Allow me to bring in one other point. I think that Hanner Mosquera-Perea will prove to be something like Victor, but in a big man. An incredible physical player with a beyond-belief reach and strength…but, he has to be really taken in and made a basketball player. In a sense this is what IU and the staff ‘owe’ these players…lots of patient, thorough teaching and drilling so they don’t have to think about it. Sort of a graduate education in playing basketball, just like the School of Music does through its Opera department.

    The least we can do is open up that next possibility to be more and achieve more for them.

  29. TsuG- I agree, Hanner will be similar to Mbakwe (at Minny) in college or at his best could eventually be like Serge Ibaka in the NBA.

  30. the league- I see a problem with your #33 (not with the post itself, with the outcomes you see). I do think one of those may be true, is some form a couple. But if Etherington Is Capobianco’d, Davis pushed off and one other ‘displaced’ it would do tremendous damage to the program within its own Heartland, the state of Indiana.

    Where we are is a great place to be. We (IU) need to be very, very strategic as to our next steps.

  31. It all depends on who you are tusg, Hartman hasn’t gotten better, wont play at iu. U want him to ride pine for 4 yrs? Why. Davis has too much to give and the last 3-4 moves have pushed his spot back further each time, unless he wants to wait 2 years for court time he’ll go somewhere else. I’m on record for 3 years now saying Etherington will never play at iu, he doesn’t fit there going forward either. Iu fans root for indiana-esque players regardless of where they are technically from. Vic and Will are loved, neither grew up even on the Midwest. As long as there are 2-3 players in the rotation from IN fans are fine, can’t waste scholarships on guys who won’t play

  32. This has been a very difficult weekend for FireCrean2013. First, Crean gets his contract extended by two years along with a big increase in compensation. Then Crean gets the news that the #7 ranked player in the class of 2013 is going to play for IU. I mean how wrong can someone posting on this site be? The torch of inanity has now been passed from 4guards to FC2013. Hey, is it possible that they could be the same person? No, probably not. But maybe they’re cousins.

  33. Tsao your assessment in #37 regarding how IU must tread lightly in how they handle this situation. Everyone uses the adage that “these things work themselves out.” Here we have noted the math indicates that 3 of “these things” have to work themselves out in some way. If Cody or Yogi go pro that would be one way that some of the issues work out without anyone getting their feelings hurt. I really like Davis and think he can be a good glue guy and a guy that can live with being at the end of the rotation his first couple of years.

    Now with Hartman you have a different situation in that he is playing a spot with a lot more depth (G/SF) than Davis does at PF. Maybe Hartman looks at the numbers and chooses another path. I don’t imagine he needs prep school for academics. So, he will have to ask himself is he happy getting almost no playing time for at least two years. Etherington is in a worse position. He is staring the idea of not ever being a rotation player right in the face. We can see he won’t be playing much this year and it is hard to envision him being in the rotation next year either. For him, the question probably becomes do I want an IU education and to stay and finish without a scholarship? Or would he prefer to transfer to a lesser basketball school and play some for a couple of years and get a degree from a different institution. I don’t know what his area of study is. If it is business then maybe staying is best. If it is another area where a school can provide a similar or better degree to what IU can offer then a transfer may be in order.

    I wish there was a Chad Ford or some other NBA type that could say what chances they think that Cody, Yogi, VO, etc each have of getting drafted at a level that is good for their future careers. With Cody it isn’t that he could go higher in the future (as he will probably always be a top 3 pick in each of the next three years simply depending upon the other talent available). For Cody, it is a question of how much he is enjoying the experience. Heck, I could probably think up a scenario where he stays four years. I sure hope so, but if I was a gambling man I would lay my money that he leaves after this season.

  34. * I should have said I agree with Tsao’s assessment in post #37 regarding how IU and CTC must be careful how they handle next year’s scholarship situation.

  35. The League- (G) You could be right…I’m basically talking about recruiting in-state issues and the pride Hoosiers take in teams based on Hoosier kids. The other factor; HS coaches, see themselves as the Priests of the Temple can be pretty unforgiving. To quote Pablo Neruda, “Love is so short and forgetting takes so long”.

    I’m not saying you are wrong League and I agree with you and Beard that these kids have to take ownership of who they are and become. Just introducing an element to be thought about when looking at the program strategically.

    I don’t know the answer (that’s why they made Crean a part of the 1% last week- to worry about it); just that Indiana HS basketball kids are pretty much The Ark inside the Temple where Hoosiers concerned.

  36. Beard…again, fully spot on with your assessment for each of these kids (even with sarcasm I couldn’t work myself into the ‘these things work out’ scenario.

    Ironically, I was thinking if I were Cody Zeller and had a 40-50-100 million dollar check paid to me what would I do with it? One thing probably in his mind is “use it to be in a place with a college basketball team with a bunch of close friends who also happen to be good people, enjoy getting up every morning, hanging out in an atmosphere that’s like a movie like a college campus where everyone recognizes me and smiles and says hi and really, really means it”.

    And, “…where when I want to I can go home and just hang out with dad and lay back in the kitchen while mom cooks. How much is that worth to me, especially since I can dictate when I have to get serious about things and having a job and doing a bunch of things that must get old real, real quick so I can pay a million or so just to do what I used to do for nothing (or very little )”.

    (If I’m so important why do they make me make choices?)

    You may be right Beard (Chet)…I don’t consider the probability of CZ leaving any better than a 50-50 shot at this point.

  37. Beard – I concur… Great post. I don’t think there is a single sentence among the 45 paragraphs that I don’t agree with 100%.

    A couple things I’ll throw in that deal more with the next set of comments.

    1) Vonleh is talking as if it’s a forgone conclusion that Zeller is gone. I’m not sure thats just an idea he has come up with on his own. Sounds like it was part of the recruiting pitch. I wouldn’t be shocked if Zeller stayed, but I’d be surprised.

    2) I guess Shannon Brown isn’t a baaaad comparison for Dipo, but I’m still sticking to Tony Allen. There physique, athleticism, and skill set are identical. Same height, weight, stats… The only difference is that Tony scored a little more because it was necessary on his team. He was picked in the 1st round after his Jr year… And while I think the depth of this team hurts Dipo’s visibility, it doesn’t necessarily hurt his stock. He will be drafted if teams think he is a defensive stopper at the next level… It’s the same reason Tony Allen is the starting 2-guard for a playoff team even though he rarely knocks down a jump shot.

    3) a comment on NBA draft stock in general… How well a team performs doesn’t generally have much impact on a players draftability. If you have the requisite size, athleticism, age, and skill-set matters waaaaay more. Specifically to Yogi, I’m not sure that scouts give a damn that IU is the #1 team in the country. I think they care that he is 5’11”. They care that he is super-quick. They care that he can get in the lane. They care that he can be disruptive. They care a little bit if he can stroke it. The good news for Yogi is that with the new hands-off rule in the NBA quickness is king. Guys like Collison, Kyle Lowry, and Ty Lawson have all had recent success at Yogi’s size. Yogi could be a 1st round pick this year… Or next year… Or the next… But his ceiling is probably always going to be outside the lottery, so it’s more a matter of what his goals are. I think his draft stock starts to decline coming into his junior year because the “upside” factor is gone and he’s now just putting additional miles on that an NBA team would want to be used with them.

  38. Also, I’m still waiting for an explanation as to why a 4 or 5-star recruit from Indiana cares what happens to 2 or 3-star players at IU. If they are being recruited by a top-5 team and they are a big-time recruit what happens to guys like Davis, Hartman, Etherington, etc has no bearing on your recruitment.

    You’re going to IU because:

    1) they are a top program
    2) they do a great job of player development
    3) it’s your dream school
    4) to play with guys like Vonleh or Yogi or Zeller (not guys like Etherington or Hartman or Capo)
    5) you’re uber-religious (that was for you Harv)

    Please Tsao (or anyone), provide a logical argument as to why Crean needs to tread carefully here…

  39. Not me but I consider the comparison a compliment. We share many of the same views (apparently, that’s obvious).

    Some of the best reading I’ve ever come across on the Scoop. Good stuff, guys.

    I’ve long said I think Cody will stick around for 3, if not 4, years. He’s having fun and I’m sure he has a 100 million dollar policy on his body.

    I just don’t know about Yogi. He could go the Conley route. We’ll see.

    I think there is a certain intangible about IU and Bloomington that the so called experts cannot plug into their equations. I live in paradise but how many of us wouldn’t move back to Bloomington in a heartbeat if we could?

    I think Vic will go pro but not until he has played 4 years and it may be in Italy. If he wants to continue his basketball career he can. BTW, another example of a guy that improved his shooting is some guy they called Magic.

    Same goes for Will. Man, those 2 guys are nothing alike but everything that’s said about one always seems to apply to the other. Will has developed a pretty shot, though. It looks a Jordy “if I’m open it’s going in” kinda shot.

    I agree that there’s no way Hanner can come up with an NBA resume that quickly. I’ve never been convinced he is ‘shovel ready’.

    I don’t see anything morally wrong with a guy transferring because the guys ahead of him are so good he doesn’t foresee playing time. Nobody is owed playing time. If I was as good as #12 or #13 are gonna end up being I’d damn sure transfer. I’d want to be on the court. I’ve never had to make the choice but I think I’d rather be the starting 2 guard on a tourney caliber team than the last guy off the bench on the #1 team in the country. Just my personality.

    That being said, I’d feel bad for Mo if he is nudged out. That’s just a different situation. I don’t see CTC doing that. I could be wrong.

    I can’t even comment on the future recruits as I’m just not that much of a junkie.

    Before I left there were lots of BS posts on the Scoop to the point it was getting tedious. When I come back there are some of the smartest posts I’ve seen.

    So, maybe I’m dragging the Scoop down.

  40. Chet, we agree…and yes…for the most part the posts (‘Beard’,’the league’ today were intelligent, thought out, provocative and it was fun both posting and benefiting from poster who made it enjoyable and challenging), And no, you don’t drag the blog down (even when we differ it provokes thought)…in fact, I was hoping you’d take note of an evening that shows where the blog can go when people just want to have a good conversation about IU sports.

    No, you do not think you drag the blog down. At least that’s always been my sense.

    Funny, in spite of getting ‘WISC’ tattooed on our foreheads, this was a good day.

  41. I would like to think there should be a sign around Mo Creek’s neck for 2013 saying “hands off”. That would be the pragmatic approach but probably not the result best served. As Chet says CZ stays 3, Vic and Will stay 4 and Yogi 2. Because programs are always building(as we have been)even when they are top there has to be some less viable move on and also some who will never arrive. It is a continual state of flux and I would not want it any other way. I do not want to suffer the MD years again. I hope in 3 years Coach Crean gets another new extension from AD Glass.

  42. Geoff- I agree that your Tony Allen comparison is ok for VO. However to Allen’s credit, and you did mention it briefly, he was a bonafide college stud who helped carry a team to 31 wins and the Final4, he was also big12 player of the year his senior year at OKSt. Oladipo simply is not that type of player. He is still aiming his shot, which shooters do not do. Allen found a niche in the league by adapting, Vic might do that. I don’t see Vic going pro this year. If he does and actually plays in the NBA I’ll gladly eat my words. Same with Watford, I do not think he’ll ever actually play in the NBA either. Again if he does, I’ll gladly say I was wrong.

    As far as scouts watching Yogi I simply meant that this team has guys who will help showcase Yogi’s abilities- he’s quick, pass first, and pushes the ball. Running with guys like Zeller, Vic, Shee, Hanner will help him showcase all those abilities he’ll be able to display all the things that will make him a top 15 pick at some point.

  43. Geoff-

    Could it be that the long term risk of losing the trust built into the AAU relationships that brought Cody and “The Movement”(and even A-Hope)is where the careful “treading” is implicated?

    Though we have two true vital pieces in a championship run(one of the best freshman point guards in the country teaming with a preseason All-American center), there was still a considerable amount of very talented in-state players that went to other programs from the last few years(Thomas @ OSU, Dawson and Harris @ MSU, McGary and Robinson @ Michigan…just to name the guys I can quickly recite)..Obviously, I’m not even including Patterson going to Syracuse or the undecided Lyles. The majority of these top local recruits left Indiana to join teams we are in constant battle with in our conference. They are given added limelight by the televising of nearly every game on the Big 10 Network..

    Can our recent success afford Tom Crean enough comfort level recruiting on the national stage to risk losing ground with top Indiana kids? Without the instantaneous recruiting momentum shift in the signing of Cody two years ago, we’re not talking about these top players from the East. How much consistent tournament success does it take for most these prima donna recruits to look at Indiana like a Duke, UNC, Kansas, Kentucky program? How many will possibly back out of verbals(possibly being lured by scum like Calipari)while we, at the same time, have gradually abandoned our relationships with local HS coaches, AAU programs, and local Indiana talent so many passionate fans of HS ball in this state feel a loyal attachment to?

    I fully understand we can’t land all the in-state top talent, but with all the talk of “The Movement” over the last two years, we also lost on some pretty damn good players from Indiana.

    There’s also some damn good basketball schools in our state(a tiny school in Indy that went to two back-to-back Final Fours with primarily local talent) that our waiting like hungry wolves for the first sign we lose primary focus on the breeding ground of hoops talent in our backyard.

    Not to negate the contributions of Oladipo, Sheehey, Remy, Watford, Pritch, etc., but without Cody and Yogi, we don’t have a prayer going deep in March. This impetus, basketball fraternity of sorts of local ballers that provided the major movement/pendulum shift that hinged all the recruiting momentum back into Crean’s court(who can forget 4guards never stopping with the “everything hinges on Cody” posts?) and a program back into national prominence was a collective effort of homegrown kids that played together on AAU teams like blood-brothers …They had tremendous pride in the long basketball traditions of this state and were motivated toward Indiana by a coach that was repeatedly beating the same drum that Indiana University should once again reclaim its standing as THE SCHOOL a top player from our borders puts on the top of the list. That beating drum became their religion as much as the cross.

    Indiana would be back because of these local FINE young and TALENTED men would sacrifice if need be because they BELIEVED in Indiana again!

    Now, because of some short term national headlines and some limelight from Seth and the Establishment, we bow to the one-and-done prima donna from the East as if he were our new basketball god? They may be more than risky..Some that bought into the sermons may consider it to be sacrilegious.

  44. oops.

    [This] may be more than risky..Some that bought into the sermons may consider it to be sacrilegious.

    I could elaborate more with plenty of Goeff’s “corn” references to support some further arguments to the danger of these over-signing methods in landing the one-and-done prima donnas from the East, but I hold off for now.

    We do like our corn in Indiana..We like to watch it grow from seedling, develop it in our fields(gyms) that hold our great basketball traditions, butter it with same praises and memories our most revered sports heroes, put it on the plates our in-state universities, taste its success on the courts our alma maters, and keep the Indiana pride in our bellies long after we’ve harvested the banner crops.

  45. I respect your comments, but… If he is a top 15 pick he will be the first guy his size in 5 yrs – DJ Augustine in 2008, and he isn’t exactly the poster child of NBA success. Currently Yogi isn’t in the top 100 NBA prospects on Ford’s list, which doesn’t mean a whole lot at this point… But of the top PG’s he lists, 2 of them are Yogi’s size and they aren’t regarded as 1st rounders. I think Yogi is a good prospect at the next level, but I’ll guess he’s never considered lottery material, and hope (foolishly) that he stays for 4 years.

  46. Harvard…if that’s what you meant by ‘elementary school’, I agree. Yours is a great explanation of the point I was trying to make with #43, #44, based on traits and characteristics that are unique to Indiana.’

    And, Indiana University basketball should never lose that focus. It is great that kids like Vonleh, Williams, Robinson are recruited and find here the meaning of It’s Indiana. But It’s Indiana only if its base really is Indiana. If Ohio State, Michigan, Michigan State have figured that out, so should we.

    The issue is central to the Indiana culture. You pointed that out not too long ago (ironically, I think in a discussion about football). And, it is a very critical point when discussing the existential relationship between high school basketball, driveway hoops and college basketball. And, it has few if any real bonding relationships with the NBA…that’s a separate matter that has little if any real meaning to me and, I would guess, linkage to most real Hoosiers.

  47. I was writing #57, probably as you were posting #55. My memories include my first ‘happy days’ in the US at the ‘bird’s nest’ at Hinkle (then still Butler, watching Attucks, Tech, Manual, Kokomo, Shortridge, Broad Ripple Anderson, Gary Roosevelt, Richmond, Muncie Central, E.C. Washington and the parades of entire ‘towns’ that would drive to 46th. street.

    It wasn’t the NBA. It was (is?) much, much better. It had exactly what you recall.

    Yogi (and Remy, and Cody…) will thrill them and they’ll love and remember them forever. And, they won’t need the NBA to validate them. They’re bigger than the NBA.

  48. Whoa Harvard – you just took that in a completely different direction. You spent 8 paragraphs going completely off topic.

    The question is why a 4 or 5-star recruit from Indiana would care whether we shun a 2 or 3-star bench player?

    We aren’t talking about shunning top Indiana-bred prospects for talent in other places. 2013 was not a great year for top talent in Indiana HS… 2014 has quite a bit, and we recruited it hard and have offered every top player. We got our fair share of 2012. We’re heavy on the trail of Coleman and Edwards in 2015, and Gordon and Blackmon in 2016.

    So my question remains… Why do those kids care about Hartman and Capo and Etherington?

  49. Oh and by the Harvard, you make way more corn references than I do… You just place them under the guise of Establishment. You know very well that I was simply re-stating what I know from experience living all over the country is a common stereo-type.

  50. They shouldn’t care. It’s the offering without the forethought given to the disruption to the brotherly relationships you’ve built on your team that may prove to be dangerous.

    Our coach should care because his constant beating of the drum in all his “decimation” talk was aimed at those young men(Etherington was part of that ‘movement’)that played together like blood-brothers since childhood were going to be responsible for bringing us back from the ashes..Now, just when we begin to show more than a smolder, you hose some of them off and toss them out like the morning trash? I realize it’s a dog-eat-dog world, but Indiana is different when it comes to honor and the personal bonds its fans to its decent young men(corny as it sounds). We like to believe in kids. We like to honor their four years and their every knee burn in bringing our program back. We should invest a little more our time and hearts than the average one-and-done will ever provide in return the appreciation for our colors. We should honor their belief in Indiana by believing they can make our team better in ways a Rivals list can never measure…Heart and guts and loyalty..and having your back.

  51. …’It’s Indiana!’ Non-Hoosiers like Oladipo, Sheehey, Remy, Vonleh feel it and come here because of it. When they leave, it is deep in their lungs, their veins,… the DNA.

    Those who don’t try to imitate being a Hoosier by following the NBA. It’s hardly the same thing.

  52. And maybe that form of equation doesn’t work in the world of college basketball anymore..If hanging banners means not honoring those that came to Indiana when we looked like chopped liver to the prima donna one-and-done, then banners don’t mean a hill of beans to this fan.

    I’m kinda with Tsao on this one. If the prize at the end begins to erode the pride I feel in sticking with some of these kids, it all leaves a rather sad taste in the mouth.

    We should have kept Roth. I have suspicions we didn’t do all we could for Patterson. If Creek can only get on the court in crutches we should honor his tremendous work ethic by not selling his scholarship to a future millionaire..We should keep Etherington for four years..Don’t destroy that good kid’s heart..He put his entire faith in cream and crimson. How can you not honor that? There’s more to life than speeches and trophies..You go down to the ground for your final rest with only your quiet deeds and goodness your word.

  53. Post #62…beautiful…

    “was aimed at those young men(Etherington was part of that ‘movement’)that played together like blood-brothers since childhood were going to be responsible for bringing us back from the ashes..Now, just when we begin to show more than a smolder, you hose some of them off and toss them…”

    He IS the Movement…when he finally went in against Bryant I was embarrassed it had taken so long. Etherington is every kid sitting in the stands going bonkers and flooding the floor. And you are right Harvard…what brought Indiana back last year was that heart.

    I’m hoping Coach Crean understands that. I know those of us who really loved that 2011-2012 Hoosier team do.

    The NBA can’t draft it.

  54. Btw Tsao – I’m sure you are way too enlightened to care about the national Championships that define IU’s greatness… The 5 titles that Hoosier fans use to argue our greatness and proper place in history… I’m sure you are just in it to appreciate what the Indiana-bred players can accomplish for the team, while you tolerate that outsiders are a part of that chemistry… Here is a little history lesson for you:

    1987 – only 3 players on roster from Indiana
    1981 – 60% of roster from IN, but not Isiah
    1976 – only 4 players on the roster from Indiana

    Now obviously the teams from the 40’s and 50’s were homegrown for the most part… But transportation was slightly different back then, and most IU fans cannot remember those teams anyway to have a fondness for the players.

    So the truth is IU basketball has been ebbing and flowing with in-state talent for 40 years, and it’s most successful teams don’t necessarily meet your criteria of “it’s Indiana only if it’s base really is Indiana”

  55. “So everyone stood up and Coach Knight said, ‘you’re not standing Landon,…”

    and Landon Turner answered, “In my heart I’m standing Coach”.

  56. Harvard – everything you’re posting is cute little rainbows and flowers and stuff… But alf of it is revisionist history, and the other half is a fading idealism. You say, “We like to believe in kids. We like to honor their four years…”. Well I hate to tell you, but not everyone agrees with your statement, in fact your ideal is generational in nature. The current population that voices its opinion all over the Internet is thrilled with the current “predicament.”
    And Tsao says, “I know those of us that really loved that 2011-12 Hoosier team do.” insinuating that only fans that see things his way can appreciate the Hoosiers… Which of course is ridiculous. My father is in his 60’s and has a similar idealism to you and Tsao about his Hoosiers. He went to IU in the late 60’s and lived in Bloomington through 1982. He loved last year. He was the one that taught me my love of the Hoosiers from the time I was a tot, and we watched several games together last year. He would never think to disparage, or even compare to his, my love of the IU basketball team.

    But the revisionist history part is the best… Like Knight never pushed guys out the door. Honoring 4 years is not some sacred IU tradition that Crean is suddenly and unceremoniously breaking

  57. Tsao – I actually was just watching that on DVR not 10 minutes ago! B1G Elite: the story of 1981 IU basketball.

  58. I never said Knight didn’t push kids out the door. And I don’t believe in recruiting only Indiana kids..That’s nuts. I would like to steal a few from Michigan and Ohio like in the same fashion they continually find top talent in Indiana. And why are so many insistent on not having integrity today because they’re is always an example they can find from the past where integrity was abandoned? Shouldn’t we strive to do better? We all know Knight could be a scoundrel.

    None of that history changes my opinion in simply believing we should honor our word to kids that invested their hearts when we were recently at the bottom(Crean beat the drum repeatedly to those initial “new generation” young men and the consequential “Movement” thereafter). I see Mo Creek, Sheehey, Remy, and Oladipo as much a part of a movement back to pride in our program as any of those Indiana kids that followed Cody. They all deserve to taste the rewards of our gained successes. I don’t think honor is a question of where they are from. Would Crean have set VJ III out with the morning trash? Then why in the hell should we do that to Etherington?

    We begged these kids(some that never flirted with a Rivals 100) to wear the cream and crimson when we were down and “decimated”..We begged them to believe in us again. I can’t now feel right in the gut by making them the morning trash for a 5-star one night stand. I can’t feel right in destroying a good kid’s heart.

    And just a note about those banners…There was a road to the banners..That road was not just paved by players from ’76 and beyond.

    Without Steve Downing(Indianapolis Washington), Knight is never worshiped. Downing lead the Hoosiers on a storybook tournament run and outshined the most revered center in the country at a ’73 Final Four. That trip to the big stage when college basketball was just catching fire on living room television sets gave Knight a huge serge of recruiting momentum that carried over into landing those key future players just outside our borders(May, Isiah).

    Now I must go to bed.

  59. Geoff, regarding #46, I basically agree. I doubt that an 18 year old 5 star recruit is going to have any awareness of an older, lesser known recruit, buried deep on the bench, transferring. I think any player who has grown accustomed to being ‘the man’ would think, “Can’t blame the guy. I couldn’t sit on the bench, either.”

    Everybody that signs with any school comes in with aspirations of being a star. Some learn to adjust to life on the bench and some move on.

    How many of you remember the late Mark Haymore? He was part of the freshman class that included Larry Bird. He played in the NCAA title game and scored 2 points.

    He couldn’t handle life at the end of the bench, though. He transferred to UMass and became a star, averaging a double double. He was eventually drafted into the NBA by Cleveland, though he spent most of his pro career overseas.

    Bob Bender was on the same team. Transferred to Duke and won the title.

    Would those guys have been better off on the end of Indiana’s bench?

  60. College Recruiting in the new millennium:
    4 and 5 *’s should not care about who holds offers. Successful programs should always recruit and offer talent above their current roster + over sign where allowed and every player should understand he may be the topic of and participant in the talk with the coach(s) describing how he will not fit in or see much/any playing time in the future. And with that revelation in mind, make a decision. How else can a program evolve and improve. His transferring most likely will upgrade the program he chooses to move to. Chet’s examples support that beyond a doubt. Treading nor anything else needs to be handled lightly. Making those tough but very correct decisions is why we are pleased with Coach Crean’s new contract. He earns it.

  61. A year or so ago, I read where a high school coach, or maybe it was an AAU one, who told one of his players, “It’s the job of the college coach to recruit over you.”

    Keeps the players hungry.

  62. So much speculation,worry.The time to fret has passed.We have the number one ranked team,a top 4 recruiting class coming in,and everyone talking about how we have room,who gets snubbed,most of it noise.We can’t resolve the scholly situation ,it evolves over time.Having a successful program with guys going to the NBA just works to attract talent.Our level of talent is being upgraded right before our eyes.Yes,that means guys get left out.We’re about to find out if Crean can coach one of the most talented teams in the country.If so,the sky is the limit for this program.Crean has shown he can reruit with the best of them.Enjoy,go along for the ride,let the coach do the worrying….

  63. My response to Geoff’s post #46 — the question being:

    “Also, I’m still waiting for an explanation as to why a 4 or 5-star recruit from Indiana cares what happens to 2 or 3-star players at IU. If they are being recruited by a top-5 team and they are a big-time recruit what happens to guys like Davis, Hartman, Etherington, etc has no bearing on your recruitment.”

    An excellent question indeed as it is very pertinent to the 2013 scholarship situation and how it will be solved. First, I would begin with the general life lesson of “Don’t burn bridges.” I am sure we are all familiar with that one. How does it apply to guys like Etherington, Hartman, Davis, Creek, etc.? If those guys leave or don’t come to IU they will not directly hurt IU in all likelihood. At worst, they might be responsible for beating IU in a game down the line but that is still a very remote chance. The thing I see where their being pushed out the door departure could hurt IU is with their high school and AAU coaches and friends/teammates on those respective teams.

    Let us look at Hartman for an example at this time. If he looks at the numbers and wants to go to Butler instead of IU to play, I think we could all respect that decision. And I think he would probably express his reasoning why in a manner that all his friends/teammates and coaches would understand. In this scenario, IU would certainly not look like the “bad guy” to anyone. Honestly, this is the way I hope it does play out with Hartman. I think it is best for IU and may well work out best for him as well. Now, let us say that Hartman still wants to attend IU but he gets a phone call from the IU staff that politely says, “Looks like the scholarship numbers are such that we cannot take you to play ball at IU.” Now, let us also say that this breaks Hartman’s heart in a way that we cannot imagine. Perhaps similar to the breakup with your first real girlfriend. Even if she handles it in a polite way, most likely, there is a period of time where you have a great dislike for her in your heart. You tell your close friends and parents about how badly you feel like you were treated. In this story, I could see Hartman telling his high school coaches and teammates that IU was “mean and rude” and they just threw me to the curb after making me promises. “They are liars!” Social media has made the world much smaller than it was even a decade ago. AAU teammates come from not only within your own state’s borders, but also from outside your region entirely sometimes (see Jurkin from North Carolina via Africa on an Indiana AAU team for example).

    Will this situation cost IU with another of Hartman’s Cathedral teammates that is now a freshman or sophomore or junior that they want to recruit? It certainly cannot help matters. How much of an issue is it? I don’t know. But enough of one that I think CTC should try to handle it in a “delicate” way. He needs to go out of his way to make sure that Hartman doesn’t have his feelings hurt if possible. Am I saying the CTC cannot lay out the truth of the situation regarding Hartman’s likely future minutes? Not at all. Am I saying he cannot suggest to Hartman that there might be greener pastures out there for him? Not at all. In fact, I think we want CTC to do that if there is any chance that Hartman will use that information to make the decision for himself without having to be told, “Hey son, I’m sorry but your spot is no longer available at IU.”

    Will future 4 and 5 star recruits look at this situation and a de-commitment or the transfer of Capubanco and say “Oh I don’t want to go to IU.” Probably not, unless they personally know the player. I think Cody Zeller is a very thoughtful person and he certainly didn’t look at the Capubanco situation and say, “Heck with this CTC is mean and pushes guys out the door. I’m not going there to IU.” But did IU possibly burn its bridge with the city or county where Capubano grew up and played in Ohio? Possibly. I don’t know.

    There is a certain balance that has to be struck with “It is basically just a business.” and with the human element of the whole thing. As I stated in my opening paragraph we all know and understand the general idea of “Don’t burn bridges.” It would be impossible to go through life and not step on someone’s toes somewhere, but that does not mean we should not try to minimize the situation.

    I do not in any way fault CTC for continuing to recruit and add top end talent to his roster. But, I also do not dispute that this will put him in some “awkward positions” in terms of having to give out very strong “hints” to people that their future with IU is limited at best. Will this burn a bridge somewhere in the future? Will that matter as there are so many bridges in this state and country that produce talent basketball players? This is the balance CTC has to keep in mind and I am certain he has a handle on it.

    So, that was the long answer to your question. To shorten the answer, I would say that if somebody wrongs your friend you will probably take that into account with future dealings with the person. If CTC upsets Hartman before next year could that have affect the outcome of 2015 recruit Jalen Coleman (a Cathedral teammate of Hartman). I would say it is certainly possible. But also, not guaranteed to either.

  64. But…with what we have seen and heard about how CTC manages personal interactions don’t you concede that it is highly unlikely that a player would feel as though they have been kicked to the curb? CTC ‘knows’ people. It’s why he is a great recruiter. I’m guessing it would come across more as, “Coach has looked at my situation and we both think I’d be a better fit at Butler.”

    This isn’t his first rodeo. Is there any past history that would indicate that this has ever been a problem?

  65. Chet, HC, etal – thanks for taking the time.

    Beard – thanks as well. From what I remember of HS, both being that age and teaching/coaching that age, is that if you are the popular kid and the girl breaks up with you, it doesn’t change your status… There are 50 girls behind that one just waiting for the opportunity. The best friend will listen to the sob story and give you a hug and call that boy an a-hole and then the very next day start flirting with him behind her friend’s back. If the star QB breaks up with the cheerleader because she isn’t hot enough, he will never want for gals who can’t wait to prove that they are. Right now IU has cemented itself as the star QB in this state.

    Now as far as Crean’s handling of the individual recruits, of course he can’t just go and be a jerk… He has to use tact and diplomacy in all situations.

    I think my overall point is that human nature, except in some rare circumstances where family is involved, is for the individual to look out for their own best interest. I honestly believe that Tsao thinks we should tread lightly because he clings to an idealism that barely exists anymore, and that isn’t a bad thing, it just doesn’t mesh with current reality.

    Is there the potential for us to lose a Coleman or some other recruit down the line? Sure, but I believe the chances are slim, and those situations few and far between.

  66. Chet not that I know of. I agree with your statement that CTC has handled the previous situations very deftly. There have not, to my knowledge, been any rumblings of hurt feelings. I doubt that RMK could say that (or that he would care either). My point was mainly a theoretical one in answer to Geoff’s post #46. My faith in CTC has increased each and every year; in fact, it probably increases daily. We must also still recognize the upcoming scholarship situation does in fact involve a greater number of over slot commitments than previously faced. That will naturally make it harder to handle, but I have the utmost confidence that CTC will do so without burning any bridges.

  67. I love recruiting decisions made into girlfriend analogies.

    We’ve gotten so used to parading around the next best “hottie”(slam-bam, one-and-done, thank you, mam) that only loves us for a quick shot of fame, I think we’ve forgotten the meaning of treating a decent girl(recruit) with some honor and respect. I know it makes us salivate to see the beauties with all the right Rivals measurements to want us for a quick roll in the hey, but there is still something to be said for fostering true love. Indiana basketball is our home. Do we want our girlfriend to feel like we’re bringing her home to mom and dad, or do we prefer to make her feel like we’re taking her to an Assembly Rivals Playboy mansion? You turn your house into a reservation desk with rooms(rooms that used to be held with true commitment to student-athlete scholarships), only truly guaranteed with each passing sexier set of bigger hips that walks through the door, trust we’ll quickly erode and the classy girls won’t even want a single date. Oh, I’m sure they’ll be some that look pretty decent carrying around a few bad habits(the sort you don’t want to introduce to ‘big daddy Kent’ and ‘momma pride Damon’)that won’t hang up the 3-way call for a chance to party in our upper level suites for a couple years.

    But what will happen to the classy Indiana girls? They’ll look to marry and have kids where the sheets don’t get changed for one night stands in front of their daughters. There are certain memories that don’t come out with the wash. Do any of you have daughters? Would you like an older man to lure her in with symbols of holiness and faith, send her love letters where he tells her “he’s been thinking of her a lot..a whole lot,” screw her to get to her best friend(the real prized recruit..e.g. Cody), and then set her out with the morning trash?

    If we set Etherington, a kid that was integral to “the Movement” out with the morning trash it turns our coach into a pimp in a priest outfit and our house into a Big Red-light district hotel with a flashing cross on it. Each new recruit will be greeted by Calipari at the reservation desk asking which holy ‘one-and-done’ room is best suited for the price level your daughter. Is that what you want for our only house on the street? Is that what you want for Indiana hoops?

  68. Beard sounds a lot like Podunker with his “utmost confidence” slogans parsed into pollyannaism that is lightly caressed with the tender suggestions of doubt.

    Much like …“I have the utmost confidence in Coach Wilson…Now be prepared for the big, bad, heavier Badgers to embarrass our Hoosier munchkin front line and annihilate our hopes…Go Hoosiers!”

    It’s all so nauseatingly careful and politically correct.

  69. Pollyannaism? Not sure what that is I must admit. Reminds me of the Ali-Cosell exchange where Cosell called Ali “Truckulant” and Ali replied, “Well, if that’s good, then I’m that.”

    Harvard: “Beard you display a tendency to exhibit the Pollyanna principle.”

    Beard: “Whatever that is, if its good then I’m that.”

    I guess I’m unconsciously positive that CTC won’t offend anyone, but I must focus a bit too much on the remote possibilities that bad things could occur.

  70. It’s all good, Beard. It’s really no different than the days Knight was pushing guys like Jason Collier and Luke Recker out the door. We were all unconsciously positive that Knight was offending EVERYONE(players he kicked and choked, peers, journalists, Connie Chung)…And we enjoyed every damn minute of it!…The foul language..The ‘f’ word..the dicing up reporters with their foolish questions at press conferences. We loved it all like our first true love…/until the deep trips in tournaments began to fade/. When you’re winning the world is in your corner. Why on earth do we care of integrity when we’re winning? History be our lesson.

    The crucifixions come later.

  71. I agree with every word written in #79 as it is pertinent at this point; perhaps, even going further and continuing to believe that once a coach (any coach) ‘commits’ to a kid (oh yeah…that word, ‘commitment’), and the prospect reciprocates by publicly announcing his own ‘commitment’, I fail to see much room for hedging. I believe that was a point we discussed intensely about six months ago and, if nothing else, I prefer to remain consistent with the view I expressed then.

    Beard, you raise an interesting point. CTC’s job is to keep recruiting until he has filled his needs. I believe that is a correct interpretation of his responsibility and, I assume those needs are, to one extent or another, met by the players he makes offers to. CTC can and should decide to whom he might give preference and to what extent he’ll handle commitments on a ‘first come, first serve’ basis and, to whom he may give preference.

    The Anye case is a really good example. From the beginning Anye was considered a ‘prime choice’. Vonleh did not initially seem to be IU’s ‘must get’, perhaps because we may have thought he was ‘not as interested’. That all changed when Vonleh seemed to indicate we, in fact, had become his first choice after a visit with CTCT who immediately accepted his commitment.

    He was right to do so, particularly since Anye seemed to somewhat kick the can down the road and his interest, while continuing did not result in a commitment. Gaced with that, CTC acted; it is hard to fault him for his action given IU’s needs. The recruitment was conducted in a very ethical manner, and a decision was made.

    If anything, the way in which Anye was notified- a text message saying IU “was no longer interested in recruiting him” seems a bit too ‘business-like’ but certainly Anye should have expected that CTC had to consider his own responsibilities to IU. If anything, I just wished that CTC had called Anye personally and ‘manned up’ about his decision. A text message seems a bit distant in these circumstances. (I did note in reports it seemed to me there was a tone of ‘hurt’ in Anye’s Twitter acknowledgement’s ‘tone’).

    ‘Commitments’ have to go both ways. The reference both ways between coach and prospect is a bond, a promise, a ‘pledge of honor’. These are values that I see as part of Indiana University, my alma matter. If someone would think this is trivial or secondary simply tells me the interpretation reveals how little they understand how we Hoosiers feel about our University. Is it ‘pollyanish’?…probably, but it is my view of the Hoosiers and I take ownership of it.

    In any case, I do believe it is a view that permeates the culture of basketball that is so unique in our state. CTC will always need to tread very carefully in how he approaches or treats the relationships with Indiana prospects, parents and their coaches. Hoosiers in general believe in the firm handshake and eye contact as the basis of the bond that is the state’s social compact and holds us together in one solid, coherent piece.

    CTC himself has to be conscious of this. As he’ll have to assume he is public and very clear that he personally has and stands behind a system of beliefs that also depends on a deep belief in an absolute truth and a code that emphasizes treating others as he himself would hope to be treated. How he reflects those beliefs and how they reflect the culture of Indiana will some day define Tom Crean as well.

    Indeed, it is much more than four stars and five stars and how they view pine time for two stars and three stars that take the floor when they wear the shirt that says “Indiana”. Even if it has all the innocence of being Hickory, Indiana.

  72. This is why you have zero credibility, TT, by saying stuff like this: “a code that emphasizes treating others as he himself would hope to be treated”

    Your hero Knight treated people like dog crap. Yes, he was nice to some people, but he was mostly a complete jackass to the majority of people.

  73. Tsao – as I said before, you do not speak for the majority of Hoosier fans. I admire your idealism, but it isn’t shared by the current or recent student body. I see the comments posted around this topic and most don’t have an issue with Roth not being back, or Hartman being pushed aside, or Etherington being pushed out… So stop saying “how we Hoosiers feel about our university.”. There are many different feelings.

    Commitments are to scholarships, and scholarships are 1 year contracts. Not 4. The NCAA hasn’t awarded a 4 year scholarship in 40 years.

    On top of that your analysis of the Anya (not Anye) recruitment was strange. Not sure why you think he seemed to “kick the can down the road”(?)… He put IU in his top 2, he said extremely complimentary things about the school and program. Meanwhile Vonleh still had a list of 6 schools he was looking at. I agree that it was an ethical recruitment, and it was certainly the best scenario for IU, but your comments were just weird.

  74. Laffy, I wrote it in English about Tom Crean (CTC)…what’s it to you who I like and don’t like? …ohhh,… and would you mind taking the little puppy (Goofy) with you…they won’t let him on campus and he keeps coming back.

  75. Pinot that it hurts my feelings Tsao, but it seems a little hypocritical that you would ask Laffy to stop calling Harvard names and then a couple post later shun your own advice.

    Maybe it bothers you that I actually do stick to the issue. I’m sure it bothers you that I see good in you and you can’t reciprocate. You need your moral high ground so badly, but then fail to act with much dignity.

  76. “kicking the can down the road”…If you kick the can down the road, you delay a decision in hopes that the problem or issue will go away or somebody else will make the decision later.”

    “to procrastinate.”

    “Kicking the can down the road” has been a favorite metaphor politicians have used to describe someone who is postponing a decision or avoiding an issue.”

    “After these issues can no longer be ignored or remain hidden, put off for tomorrow the hard choices that we know should be made today to solve these issues.”


  77. Etherington is a big reason Cody is in candy-stripes. He was the embodiment of the spirit behind “The Movement.” You push that kid off the team and the darkest karma shall be unleashed upon your false tongue and false hopes delivered to that young man.

    Pinot grigio!

  78. Right… And that phrase doesn’t make sense in the context of what happened. Anya took his visit and immediately trimmed his list to 2 schools – IU and NCST. He was seemingly much closer to a decision at the time we told him we were no longer interested than Vonleh, who still had 6 schools on his list, and 6 official visits scheduled, and was on the record as saying he was going to take until spring to make his decision.

    Anya was not procrastinating… He was going through the process just like a bunch of other top recruits are doing right now.

    We decided that Vonleh was our guy, and we went all in. I’m fine with that… Well, more than fine because I think Vonleh is 3 times more valuable.

    But if Vonleh had decided to finish out his schedule of official visits do you think Crean would have moved on? No, and no one (besides you maybe) would be accusing him of kicking the can down the road.

  79. Yeah Harvard, none of us know what was promised to Etherington. I also am sure that IF he transfers out you will be convinced that it is Crean’s doing and not Etherington’s decision… No matter what Austin says.

  80. The hartman situation is tougth but what do you do. Crean would not have taken williams and noah and make them wait until spring to sign. Somebody will have to wait or move on. A few years ago taking a early verbal seemed ok but now we are back with the big boys.Hopefully we dont do it again unless it is a yogi like sure thing. Hartman and maybe davis will get shoved out but being nice wont keep you #1 in the country.

  81. I’m just not comfortable with (as Harvard points out) the ‘karma’ that comes out of this. From my stand point, we are not Kentucky nor am I comfortable with IU as a one and done pass through stable for future NBA meat we marinade for 1 year.

    Just not IU…our essence is entirely different and vastly superior to a horse farm.

  82. The Vonleh and Anya situation combined with the Williams commit are very interesting to look at on a time line. It would be fascinating to be a fly on the wall in meetings with CTC in which he and the staff were figuring out how things might potentially play out and what future dominoes would fall because of it. While he (CTC) will never comment on it I am sure, it may well be that we look back at those two weeks as being among the most important in the tenure of CTC.

  83. Here we go again… The UK way is the only alternative.

    Btw, I heard from an extremely unreliable source last night that his son (a college basketball player in Mass) saw a picture of Nerlens Noel with a brief case containing $100,000 in it from UK while at Prep last year. The story is that he is driving a Lexus now and everyone is aware of the situation where he’s from. Of course the guy that told me never shuts up, and you never know if what he’s saying has an ounce of truth, but I’ve never been able to prove one of his stories false. It kinda like when your in 7th grade and you brag about how you DID IT with a girl, but she was from another school and you wouldn’t know her…

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