Indiana falls to No. 6 in both polls

Indiana fell to No. 6 in both the Associated Press poll and the USA Today coaches’ poll on Monday after losing 88-86 to Butler on Saturday. The previously unranked Bulldogs also broke into both polls at No. 19 in the AP and No. 25 in the coaches’ poll.

Duke moved up to No. 1 in both polls and Michigan moved up to No. 2. Syracuse, Louisville and Arizona were the three other teams in the top five in both polls with Syracuse No. 3 in both. Arizona was No. 4 in the AP poll and Louisville was No. 5. The two teams switched spots for the coaches’ poll.



  1. I like Dustin’s commnet that it is only December. It is good for IU to see it has some weak areas.

    I really see IU having issues with Illinois this year, they have big fast guards. I would like to see Vic and Will guarding these 2 guards.

  2. Wow chicago hoosier, if you see iu having trouble with illini what on earth will they face vs osu and michigan?

  3. I don’t buy into the “It’s only December” too much because this team is not getting better as the season progresses.

    As most have said, we heard countless times where Zeller has an outside game. Well, where is it? If he can’t show it against Cupcake City, how is he going to show it against the Big Ten when it’s the toughest conference in the country?

    Same with his “playing like a man.” Hopefully the Butler game wakes him up on that front.

    And I’d sit Watford the rest of the year until/unless he pulls his head out of his rump.

    We’re not going to win with him playing that way anyway so we might as well let Hanner get the experience he badly needs and look to next year when we’ll have players that can actually rebound.

    If we lost every game from now on but actually TRIED to win, I’d be their biggest cheerleader.

    Even when we had Knight, I really didn’t give a crap about our win-loss record. It was all about, “Did we play to the best of our abilities?”

    In fact, I used to have a picture above my desk of Knight with the quote, “Your real competition is yourself”….or something like that.

  4. The way they played Saturday, I don’t think they deserve to be ranked in the top ten right now.

    Arizona is over-rated at #4. Their victory at home against Florida was a bit of a fluke.

    We need our bigs to step up in a major way and rebound like big boys.

  5. Laffy, another Knight quote,”Bench gives message to A$$,A$$ gives message to BRAIN…or something like that.

  6. A loss doesn’t break us, it can be a learning lesson. However, too many learning lessons can result in a 6 seed. Which results in a tough road. Which results in a crap feeling. So…..lets win, baby!

    The subbing nearly had me dizzy on Saturday. I know we are deep but John Wooden once said, “If you have 10 great players, you dont have one great player.” And thats why he played 7 kids. Because thats all you really need. But what did he know….Go IU

  7. What do you guys think of this article?

    I think it’s pretty much spot on.

    Butler drank our milkshake while we sat there and watched.

    And I’d much rather keep Olidipo next year over Cody but I think Victor is gone. If Zeller leaves, I won’t miss him one bit.

    And don’t tell me “one bad game” because hasn’t shown TOUGHNESS at ALL yet….nor that “great outside shooting ability” we heard 24/7 all summer long.

  8. How so?

    We’ve got the “best player/center in the country” and he barely touched the ball after 3 of their big guys foul out.

    That falls on Crean, the guards and Zeller. None of them fixed the situation.

    Zeller had 0 fouls and 5 rebounds.

    Defense wins championships. Victor is the MAN on D. Zeller? LOL!! Ummmmmmmm…….no.

    Heck, Crean didn’t even trust his D at the end of the game.

    How many team sit an All-American at the end of the game with it on the line?

    That spoke volumes……..

  9. Laffy, my point exactly on the Zeller outside game. He is way to predictable wheb he gets the ball 10-13 ft away from the basket, he is talking it to the basket, period. From my understanding he shot 3’s in high school, Butler defended him well on his dribble drives to the basket.

  10. I never understood the ranking to begin with. It’s not like we were a Final Four team last year.

    That being said, I’m glad we were. Having the number one ranking taken away from these guys might have more of an effect.

    The 1981 Championship team dropped a loss to Texas-Pan American heading into Big Ten play. I remember the sky falling on 3 or 4 different occasions around here last year. It all turned out pretty well.

    So will this. Number six sounds fine right now. I know I sure wouldn’t want to be the next team up. Their coach is hating life right now.

    I really don’t get all the alligator tears. We ALL knew things needed fixing. The team has a ton of flaws. Limitless potential, but a ton of flaws. But these are kids who were told by the sporting press that the were the best team out there. If they believed it, that’s on them. I believe we can win it all but that’s because March is 3 months off and they have a lot of time to improve. If we HAD to lose a game and I could pick a single team off the schedule that we would lose to, it would be Butler. I like the team. Cheered for them as if they were the Hoosiers in the title game. Twice. That’s just me, I know. But, like every other team for the past 26 years, we were gonna lose a game at some point.

    Couldn’t possibly have happened at a better time, IMHO.

  11. Just read that Crean is all over Twitter defending the players (I don’t use Twitter….saw it on Peegs…..but not the actual Tweets).

    Kinda torn on that one.

    Yes, you need to stick for your guys.

    But you also need to admit when they….and you…..sucked.

    How about saying, “The entire team, especially myself, had our worse game of the season and it was completely unacceptable” and leave it at that?

    I’d rather he be watching film and thinking of ways to make the team better instead of Tweeting, “My guys are great so get off their backs”….or whatever he’s saying…..over and over….

  12. preseason rankings: IU #1
    preseason awards: Zeller for Player of Year
    mock drafts: Zeller #1

    are, have been, and will always be worthless. People holding IU accountable or Zeller accountable need to remember that Zeller is not the one who signed up and declared “I am the greatest.” In fact nothing he’s ever said or done on the court has even hinted that he views himself that way. Not his attitude, his play or his game. It seems like everyone is frustrated because IU was ranked high(they didn’t rank themselves) and Zeller is dudding out(he didn’t rank himself). If you just watch games and see what and who this team is you would still be enjoying the ride of the underdog. Anytime you start Jordan Hulls you are an underdog program. And that is a compliment to Jordan Hulls. I love the underdog so I enjoy this team. Once they are loaded with future nba players it will be much less easy to enjoy. Remember this team says it after each game “we are preparing for the next opponent.” They don’t even think of themselves as high as the fans do. The fans who were hurt that we lost to Butler obviously are fans who prefer to root for the #1 team (out of status/convenience)as opposed to fans who actually know/understand and have played the game of basketball.

  13. Well, Zeller did brag about his outside shooting….so where is it?

    And I don’t give a crap about the rating except that it was nice to tell recruits that for awhile.

    This team plays better with something to prove and a chip on their shoulder. I think people piling on them will actually help them.

    I do think the #1 thing went to Will’s head and he was too concerned about “getting noticed” with his showboating garbage.

  14. Wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! One loss has really brought out the “arm chair quarterbacks” the one’e that lack all knowledge of college bb but can make so many so called factual statements after one loss. The one’s that now lay claim to “I told ya so’s”!!!!

  15. I nagreen with nthis statement by Andy Katz: “• Indiana’s loss to Butler could do for the Hoosiers what the IU loss last year did for Kentucky. Remember, this was an overtime, final-possession loss. Kentucky lost to IU on a last possession last season and then cruised the rest of the season. The difference here is that Indiana is playing in a much tougher conference. Still, this loss should do wonders for the Hoosiers going forward.”

  16. Bombay Sap the problem is the coach. The team is the best in the country but the coach … meh! … as a coach, let me put it this way … he’s pretty good in the Subway commercial.

    Imagine our team coached by Brad Stevens. Whoah!

  17. Laffy-
    Disagree about your beef with Will but I respect your view of his actions.
    Sometimes you lose, plain and simple.
    People comparing this team to Kentucky last year are hilarious. Kentucky was a bonafide #1 and won every game except the Wat-shot. Kentucky had legit future nba allstars on its roster. Let’s stop comparing this overachieving(last year) IU roster to Kentucky. Michigan is the closest team to Kentucky. Michigan is 8 points better than IU right now. “Loss should help them going forward.” Is dumbest comment of all time. The game and the way they were competed against, regardless of winning/losing is what helped them not the outcome, any coach will tell you that. IU never thought it would be easy. They lost. On to the next one, the B1G will be even tougher than Banker’s Life Butler.

  18. Santa- I agree that Crean isn’t the best coach. You think he is a bad coach? Like…you think they can’t win because of Crean? I don’t think its that bad. I would say there are at least 3-4 better in game(xs and os) coaches in the B1G than Crean, but I think he does enough with recruiting/motivating/confidence-building that he makes up for it.

  19. the problem with crean is this: he’s a smart man. he has a beautiful family. he has a good heart. he’s a good recruiter (very shrewd person in the best sense) and he has put together a pretty good coaching staff. i hate to see him overwhelmed by the opponent especially when he finally has the team he wanted. i think he’s maybe a bit hyperactive and a bit overcoaching. i hate it when his best moments appear to have happened by chance. i love what he did with will and vic and he has helped jordy a lot. with knight i didn’t like he just seemed to never want to call time out towards the end of the game, let the players figure it out he was saying. with crean it’s exactly the opposite. he sometimes chokes them by interfering with their play too much. so, yes, i think it gets in the way, i really think it does. but i hope i am wrong except it bothers me, you see?

  20. Oh Jesus.

    It isn’t “one loss” that has people upset. Except for the UNC game, we haven’t looked good at all.

    Don’t brag to me about beating up on cupcakes by 25 points….especially when it took us 10 minutes to “get going” most of the time.

    The people who “know nothing” were the ones screaming, “Why didn’t we get every #1 vote in the country? We’re FAR better than Duke!!!!”


    I agree comparing us to Kaintuck’s team last year is stupid as they had FAR more talent.

    Brad would make MANY teams better, not just ours….though I don’t think even Brad could get Watford to be tough.

    Speaking of Kaintuck, they are having problems this year and they say it’s because the players are “not listening” to Calipari.

    So, was Crean telling our players to dump it to Cody and they didn’t listen or did Crean screw the pooch and not call it?

    He did admit he should have pressed more.

    Just wish people would stop with the “one bad game” after every time we look like crap…..

  21. Santa- I have always been critical of that aspect of Crean’s coaching. I believe he is way to involved during a game, the clapping/yelling/pacing does no one any good. The players/recruits supposedly love it because of his positive energy. But I would prefer he coach during the week and then watch them play, this team is experienced, if they don’t know how to defend on their own, him pacing and clapping on the sideline won’t help. I’d love to see him sit calmly and watch them play for a 10-12 minute stretch ala Boeheim or a Phil Jackson. Or any coach that doesn’t constantly pace/cheer lead. He wants IU to have a leader, he needs to step back and allow a leader to grow, he’s cutting into that growth, he wants to be the face of the program. Its college so he can get away with that. But Jordy and next year Yogi, need to be allowed to be the face, just like Burke is the face of Michigan, not Beilein.

  22. SMP–

    I disagree that Crean “has the team he wants” and why I’ve said, many times, I think we’ll be better next year…..even if, or especially if, Zeller leaves….and especially with Watford gone.

    Crean learned from Izzo and his teams almost always lead the country in rebounding…..and how many Final Fours has he been to?

    We’ve got 3 studs coming next year that are rebounding machines.

    Cody is a poor rebounder. If he stays next year, he’ll have 3 or 4 studs rebounding (Hanner too) so he can take off for the basket and they can lob it to him all day long like they did with UNC.

  23. Laffy- I wish every win ‘looked good’ that simply isn’t sports. Did you watch the Colts beat the Bears in the superbowl? It was one of the boringest games in the Peyton Manning era. I’d rank it right about 110th on the lists of decent to watch Colts games. They didn’t really win, the bears were just worse that day. Not every game is perfect. I could show you about 5-10 games in season of the last 4 national champions and you would be disappointed in how they play. I don’t know how old you are but if you grow up in the espn, youtube era like I did you assume all plays are top ten because you sit and watch highlights. The fact is most games aren’t perfect. Show me 5 teams in the country right now that are consistently playing ‘beautiful’ basketball….You won’t find any that are. Even the Kentucky team of last year, which we seem to both have respect for, they had numerous games where they did not look well coached or ‘good’ for that matter, but they still won.

  24. the truth is that winning has an undeniable beauty of its own.

    i think crean is smart enough to understand all of this and/or his players will step up and i’m sure later this season at some point he’s going to let them go and they’ll deliver and make us all happy. conference play won’t be as disastrous as we might think, we might lose a couple here and there (and learn in the process, this team learns fast) but whoever comes to assembly hall will be obliterated like the tar heels.

  25. I completely agree every great team doesn’t “look good” every game.

    Heck, the Giants just got destroyed yesterday.

    But with the cupcake schedule we have, we should be looking better than we have….and yes, that sounds dumb to some considering how much we won by.

    And people hate the “I told you so” stuff, but we were told, “You don’t know what you’re talking about because we won by 25” after we expressed concerns after wins.

    But, we were right.

    And are not nearly as good as the “We should get every #1 vote in the country” zealots screamed.

    All we heard before the season was “Look out for Cody’s outside shooting”…..yet he’s not even trying them…..not even against the cupcakes.

  26. Yeah I dunno what to say about all that. I thought they deserved the #1 but I didn’t care about it nor did I think it’d equal them being flaw free. They do lead the nation in scoring. But yes they have a long way to go. I still look at this team as an underdog team. If they win the B1G that will be a much bigger accomplishment than being ranked #1. And in my opinion they are not favored to win the B1G. Even if they had gone 13-0 in nonconference it wouldn’t have changed my view. This team is always going to be an underdog, if they play that way and fans understand that they’ll enjoy this team a lot more. If you get caught up in the hype of what people want (preseason rankings/awards) it will frustrate you. IU is a really good bball team, so are about 20 other teams.

  27. Laffy, you are hilarious with your “we’ll be better off without Zeller” nonsense. Please keep it up. LOL.

  28. And in my opinion they are not favored to win the B1G.

    Yes, but for the first time we have a team that can win the Big Ten Tourney. And from that point on in eliminatory play they might just become invincible.

    Regarding Cody’s outside shooting maybe they’re keeping it as a secret weapon to be used in conference play and later. Crean is shrewd. Same goes with Watford maybe Crean is trying all sorts of outlandish schemes that Watford can’t relate to at the moment but will pan out later. Watford loves the big stakes. He’s like an airplane needs room and plenty of reason to take off.

    It’s good we start at Iowa on Dec 31. And as you said it’s better they came down a bit in rankings. It’s good for their “temples”. But they’re still the best to me.

  29. I agree with Laffy on just about everything Laffy has posted here so I won’t add to it except: I agree Laffy.

  30. They lead the country in scoring against one of the most cream-puff schedules in the country.


    You sound like Crean Tweeting stats to defend the team after getting punched in the mouth and going down like Chavez.

    If Zeller isn’t a poor rebounder, why did he only have 5 of them yesterday when Butler had 4 or 5 guys with that many (IIRC)?

    If Zeller can’t “play like a man” inside, which he isn’t, he better be able to take the outside shots he keeps BRAGGING about.

    Otherwise, a grade school coach can shut him down.

    Little hyperbole? Sure. But college coaches aren’t stupid. If Cody can’t/won’t bang, and refuses to shoot from 5 feet out, he’s pretty much one dimensional…..and those players are easy to beat.

    UNC showed teams if they run with us, they’re dead. If they slow it down, they’ve got a great chance.

    And Butler showed them exactly how to do it.

    You think any team is going to let us “play fast” from now on?

    I guess the most frustrating thing to me, along with Will’s hot-dogging and Watford being useless, is all the talk from Zeller with, “I practiced all summer long shooting from the outside because I know teams are going to jam me inside and this will open everything up for everyone” and then NEVER FREAKING DOING IT.

    That and them not pounding it inside after all those guys fouled out just AMAZES/FRUSTRATES me.

    And it is NOT hyperbole to say a YWCA 5th grade coach would have known to thrown it to Cody EVERY time after those players fouled out….and we didn’t.

    That just boggles my mind.

    Along with the brutal rebounding drills Crean bragged about, I hope he goes back to the scrimmages from last year where a basket didn’t count unless Cody at least touched the ball.

    That was inexcusable.

  31. “Ugly games?” Man, you guys have completely forgotten the Bobby Knight era or did you enjoy those 50-60 point jousting matches? Every night is the Bolshoi Ballet with these guys by comparison.

    How about that Syracuse team that won the title? Did those guys meet just before the games and draw straws for the starting lineups?

    UConn generally stumbles into the tournament as a bubble team. Then they either look awesome or look like they didn’t deserve an invite. They also usually have a 40 point loss to DeVry or ITT Tech during any given season. Jim Calhoun will go into the Hall of Fame the first year he’s eligible.

    The Lakers look pretty crappy these days, for that matter, and they’ve got more talent than they know what to do with (obviously).

    This time of year college basketball teams just aren’t going to look great every game. I have no idea if I’m correct or not but I don’t remember December being a terribly kind month to RMK.

    Personally, I don’t think we look that bad compared to everyone else. I’m in ACCland and I see Duke, NC State, and UNC all the time. NC State looks ROUGH. Maybe Duke looks a little better but I think we’d beat them in a physical game (believe it or not, they look really soft).
    That “cupcake schedule” stuff is BS, too. Our schedule looks about like most top 20 teams. Michigan State is about the only team that comes to mind that plays a really tough non-conference schedule every year.

    This is about what even good teams look like in December.

  32. Laffy- someone posted on here a few days ago that you merely get on here to ‘start a fight’ and its true. You might have something to say, or something to disagree with but none of that matters. Decide to watch the rest of the season or decide not to. Its called a season for a reason. You sound like someone who sees its 55 in the summer and starts crying that winter is coming. Its summer. Its not always going to be perfect. You are way to attached to what “Zeller said over the summer.” I think you take a lot of what kids are asked and the answers they give, way to personally.

  33. Well, unlike Debbie, I don’t think Crean is the “worst coach ever” and should be fired.

    I LOVED watching Knight’s teams play (after Cheney left, not so much) because of how they played together and their ferocious defense. It’s not about putting up 90 points a game to me.

    The Lakers suck because they have the wrong system in place for the talent. They should have kept Bickerstaff.

    Duke is “soft” yet beat 3 Top 5 teams?


    Ummmmmmmmmmmmm, ok.

    So, why do you think Cody isn’t even trying the outside shots he bragged about non-stop before the season?

  34. No, I do not get on here “just to start a fight.”

    Never expected “always perfect”…..ever.

    Way too personally?


    Cody bragged and bragged about his shot.

    I’d just like to know why he isn’t even trying it.

    And in case you missed it, several of the regulars have agreed with what I’ve said…..not all of it, but much of it.

  35. So your main beef at this point is that you are ticked that a 19 year old kid said he’s been working on his outside jump shot and now you want to see him shoot some outside jump shots. All this anger over something a 19 year old said sometime over the summer. Note to Laffy- use your skillz and put the clues together, think for a little bit and then answer this for yourself….why don’t you think Zeller is shooting outside jump shots? If you think long and hard I think you might come up with a decent answer.

  36. Does anyone else even remember Zeller repeatedly “bragging” about his outside shot? I sure don’t. Bragging isn’t exactly his style as noted by everyone except for Laffy, apparently. I remember some chatter about it being a possible weapon and that he could play outside more, but with Perea, Jurkin, and Elston all out, would that really have been such a swell idea so far? Rebounds are important too you know. Oh wait I forgot. Cody is a poor rebounder!

  37. Laffy, you’ve made some good points over the last couple of days, but your comments about IU being better without Zeller are way off the reservation. I mean, those comments are in the twilight zone. I’m not attacking you here, and I share your frustration about Saturday’s game, but comments like that destroy your credibility. No one will take you seriously if you keep making comments like that.

    If you asked 250 college BB coaches, NBA coaches, and college BB sportswriters, the so-called experts, “Would IU be better off without Cody Zeller?” Not one would say yes. Not one. It’s really stupid to say that, and you can try until the end of time, but there is no way you can successfully make that case.

    There is a reason why Zeller was the Pre-season MVP.

  38. If you don’t want the name-calling from me, you can stop the crap posts like that.

    Take your condescending sarcasm and shove it.

    Yogi can’t throw it in the ocean most of the time yet he keeps trying.

    So if Zeller isn’t as good as he said he was, maybe he needs to practice it in game situations…..especially when playing cupcakes…..and maybe he shouldn’t have bragged about it.

    Sure is odd Zeller could shoot from the outside in high school and even won our point shooting contest at Hoosier Hysteria but won’t even TRY shooting outside of 5 feet now when it would help open things up for everyone.

    I mean, if he expects to go in the Top 3 in the draft, you’d think he’d want to show he can do it during games since he can’t bang with anyone.

  39. The critiques of CTC always make me laugh. His peers (other coaches and athletic directors) think very highly of him but here we are, just a bunch of guys, a handful of whom have coached at any level, and some of us are completely dismissive of a guy that has rebuilt a team from the ashes up to a (temporary) #1 ranking.


    None of us would criticize a surgical procedure or question flight plan efficiency or evaluate methods of oceanographic research but when the subject is basketball (or football), it doesn’t matter that a guy has immersed every waking moment for the past 25 years and studied under some of the greatest minds in the game and is held in high esteem by these same minds, WE know better.

    One can only assume that his critics are bringing home $3 to $4 million a year or, otherwise, they would have brought their bounty of knowledge to the hardwood. That kind of knowledge does NOT get overlooked. Are these folks as dismissive of Peter Higgs and his fundamental particle research? I mean, why not? They DO have mass.

    Reality check, he knows more about basketball than any of us. Sorry, it’s true. If you knew more you’d be getting paid millions of dollars to share it.

    …and if you knew more about particle physics you’d be getting paid tons for that, too. That’s just the way it works.

    …or surgery. Same deal.

    I understand criticism. Especially when it involves something as near and dear as the Hoosiers. But this “he’s in way over his head” or “he’s the worst coach in the Big Ten” business just makes you look silly. The people who do this for a (very good) living think you are foolish.

    I mean, I understand questioning a substitution, or going with a certain defense in a specific situation, but this blanket “he’s a terrible coach” stuff just makes you look ignorant.

    Do you really want to be lumped in a group with someone like Debbie, who couldn’t find her way around a basketball court with both hands, her feet, and a flashlight?

  40. I mean better next year without Zeller……….not this year.

    We’d be SCREWED without him this year.

    Next year, I don’t think it will hurt us if he leaves. I think we’ll miss Victor more.

    And we’ll see how much the experts keep slobbering over Cody if he refuses to shoot from outside 5 feet and gets thrown around like a rag doll by college kids.

    There have been MANY kids who hurt their draft spot by staying a year too long and exposing their weaknesses. Hopefully Cody isn’t one of them.

  41. laffy reminds me of the legendary johhny tapia: with him, what you see is what you’ve got. no more, no less, nothing personal.

  42. Who the hell are you talking to?

    I guess I missed the “worst coach in the Big Ten” and “in over his head” talk.

    I sure haven’t said that.

    Is he the best coach in the country/Big Ten?


    Is he the worst?


    I do think a grade school coach would have got it into Cody after all those guys fouled out, though.

  43. First of all, nice strawman with the “25 feet” line.

    Second, you might want to ask Dallas if they think they would have won the Title if Dirk only played inside.

    Or ask Haston if he would have sniffed the first round if he couldn’t hit outside shots.

    And if you’re right, why did Zeller spend so much time practicing them instead of a hook shot?

    Now THAT would be a GREAT weapon.

  44. comparing crean with higgs or even a surgeon is ridiculous. crean never played basketball. how can you teach what you don’t know how to play is beyond understanding. kinda like a surgeon that never went to medical school or a peter higgs who never opened a physics book. crean is a good salesman. that i understand. meanwhile arm pitt begs to differ. chet the amount of intelligence that comes out of your posts when you choose to defend crean is equal to the hawking radiation due to quantum effects near the event horizon of a black hole: infinitely close to zero.

  45. OUT COACHED,OUT PLAYED,!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Only upside Dipo. Beaten at every fundimental part of the game. Unable to compete at a physical level.Only good thing it wasn’t a conference game.We have alot of work to do,I never thought we would go undefeated but this never should of happened! The big ten is loaded and there is no place for a soft performance you have to be ready every night. Once again Watford was MIA its starting to get old where he is concerned and he is a senior!Zellers worst overall game since he has been at I.U.The last shot is on CTC ,Where was Zeller? Got to get better to compete,can’t win without blockouts and defense.Jurkin,Perra,and Elston if he’s ready need to all play 20 min. per game against the the remainder of the cupcake schedule,we are going to need them.

  46. Brad Stevens doesn’t look like he played a lot of ball.

    Maybe I’m wrong.

    And as far as “All the experts slobber all over Cody”, well, “all of the experts” have been wrong before.

    And not just when it comes to basketball.

    How many first rounders…even “sure” things….have been a bust?

    And not to toot my own horn too much, when most of the country said the Iraq war was going to be a cakewalk, I said it was going to be a disaster.

    And I, of course, was right….even when the “experts” were telling everyone it would be “easy.”

    Same with the financial meltdown. NONE of the “experts” saw it coming. I called it long before it happened and was told, repeatedly, I was insane.

  47. show me a pic of crean like this

    let me see it. he played at depauw 1995-1999.

    the walk on who scored their last points, barlow, was a pretty good shortstop. he dropped baseball to come to play for stevens so he can too one day be a coach like him.

    play, then coach. that’s natural.

    what bothers me when in chet posts is that he asks people to never think for themselves. what an offensive attitude!

  48. Oh, and for the record, I’m not saying I’m always right and I never listen to the experts.

    I just don’t automatically take their word as gospel then stop looking at the situation.

    I was mostly wrong, but not entirely, IMHO, on that last play with Jordy after reading Geoff’s take and it’s why I like this place.

  49. Crean played 4 years in high school.

    He was also an assistant for Izzo and Heathcoate so I’m guessing he learned a few things from them………

  50. Duke SHOULD go into the Big Dance undefeated. They are the only high caliber team in the ACC this year and they played a tough non-conference schedule.

    We’ll see how they do.

  51. Saturday was a coaching loss, pure and simple. There’s practically no excuse for not going to Zeller every trip in overtime. But only mediocre people are always at their best.

    Crean has done great things here. My only worry about him is the same that I had when he first came. He wins a title with Dwayne Wade; the next year Marquette doesn’t even go to the tournament.

    He’s put together a great team to watch. But can he coach them during the game, or does he need players better than his coaching staff and him?

    All one can do is root for the lot of them. There’s nobody not to like.

  52. Thanks for the link. Great post Laffy, great comment, excellent analysis. (

    Somehow lost in the conversation; yes, we beat Kentucky, we got to the Sweet 16. We also lost to very weak Minnesota and Nebraska teams and got shave pretty close at Penn State and Northwestern(though a decent NW team).

    And, somehow we end up with #1 in the nation this year and got to talk about it all summer long, including questions like…’what do you think are the chances we go undefeated? That question can only come from one of the states where they have legalized pot.

    There is a big difference too. We could dispute the boards. We are missing Elston, we miss Pritchard and we miss Watford who evidently is missing his schedule appointments with the team shrink. Zeller, by himself, has never been a great factor on the boards nor was he supposed to be. He’s a great player on transition, great speed and touch but has never been a pounder.

    All we know about Perea is from high school hype, Zurkin should be able to distribute some pain and convince others to at least focus on keeping their medical insurance premiums paid up and then, the best addition to this team will be Mr. Elston who deserves we set the table for him for once.

    Then we can see whether we’ll be promisingly mediocre or just mediocre. And then, we should see if CTC can do anything against the likes of coaches like those at Ohio State, Michigan, Michigan State, Wisconsin and Northwestern. Then, maybe, CTC can work his way back and show Stephens just how much we got out of our first schooling by his team.

    Good article, very thoughtful.

  53. Romero, if you are here to troll and single out bloggers take it elsewhere. Otherwise, bury your cowardice and identify yourself or enclose your email so those you target and harass on the internet can deal with your cyber-bullying more directly. Is that clear, girl! (I know you’re not Hispanic, Hispanics have two of them).

    DD- I am again requesting you deal with the harassment. Not the legitimate content, but there was absolutely no content in the posts written by this fake Hispanic, Danny Romero (I’m embarrassed and insulted he carries a Hispanic name, even a fake one).

    DR- Got that, leche de mamacita?

  54. Before, I ripped Crean over the “road atmosphere thing” and he clarified that tonite. From Peegs: “When Crean mentioned postgame opposing fans made it feel like a road game, that was a reference to the Butler fans directly behind the IU bench, not the crowd overall”

    Ok, that’s cool.

    As far as Zeller, do I want him to leave? No. I just don’t think he’s the SUPER STAR every paints him as. And I don’t think we’ll MISS him next year like everyone is clutching their pearls.

    Hanner will be a rebounding machine. So will Vonleh, Williams and Robinson. And Yogi did great the other game.

    Good luck keeping up with those 5 guys on the floor next year. Holy cow. With Remy and Will (if he pulls his head out of his butt) off the bench first? Sweet.

    And speaking of Yogi, I don’t give him crap for his awful shooting percentage because the dude is trying and he’s young. As long as they are trying their best, I will always have their back.

    And, you could tell that bad turnover just KILLED him inside.

  55. No….Noo, noo, noo…you don’t get to get away with that one…You don’t get to pick and choose. If we rip CWat, if we rip Zeller…Yogi gets to meet his reality too. Both he and Hulls played poorly- not just the 10% shooting- but the ball was never moving Butler to where they did not want to go; and Yogi didn’t seem to have any idea where he was. Perhaps national TV did it to him, but he gets no freebies either. Other than the ‘three’, I can’t say I liked any of his distribution or choices.

    Right now, we’re a team that needs guard play. Remy would give us good defense and he gave us some good minutes on offense. Maybe, Hulls and Ferrell is not such a great idea…we can’t slow down a team with good guards right now. Michigan, MSU or Ohio State would waterboard our guards right now.

  56. This loss pointed out some very glaring weaknesses on IU. All season long I have been looking for Zeller to demonstrate an array of moves around the hoop. Cody has so much talent but he is exhibiting the same offensive repertoire as Tom Pritchard. COACHES…please point this out & let’s work on this OK? Uwe Blab had a couple of moves I’m sure Cody can duplicate. He has the talent, he needs to refine it. Watford needs to sit. Nothing motivates better than the pine. CWat has never finished well at the rim & this year it seems worse. I love his rebounding but the ball doesn’t know what to do…you have to have some touch around the rim. I would say that up to this point that IU has been getting by on talent alone but not improving that talent. IU has a few games left in Dec to really improve in that area. Let’s go IU.

  57. The Crinson Quarry(below) has a quick study showing CWat games to date is comparable with last season. When he is good, he is really good. When he is not, man, what a

    Laffy – Cody bragging.? I can’t see that. I think he may have said he was working on his outside shot and was getting better. TC was the one who stated (I don’t think bragging) that Cody had improved his outside shot.

    Last year the team componate was new to the opposing teams, this year the B1G will be ready.

    I think the next three games are going to be critical introducing the new guys. Don’t care if we win by 10 points or 20 or even lose, just getting the playing time.

    Looking at the season dump so far by UCLA and Ky. This will be an interesting season. Or frustrating.

    Bet we don’t see Cody sitting at the end of a close game ever again. Hanner & Jurkin should greatly improve options and play of Cody..

  58. Sure I can “pick and choose.”

    As I said, if a player is trying his best, I’m not going to be super tough on them.

    Am I thrilled with Yogi’s shooting? Of course not. But the kid is busting his butt so I’m not going to blast him like Cody or Wat. He’s also a freshman so I’ll forgive more there.

    My favorite player of all time is Calbert because he was the best LEADER I’ve ever seen.

    Where is the LEADER on this team?

    Someone should have stepped up and said, “If you don’t get the ball to Cody every time (after those guys fouled out), you’ll be answering to me in practice.”

    Cody said, flat out, he had been working on his shot because he knew he’d be double teamed and he needed it to open things up for everyone.

    He even won the freaking 3 point contest at Hoosier Hysteria so he obviously put a lot of time into it.

    Put up or shut up.

    And as far as my ripping him, I go back again to Bobby as I’m hardest on the best player…especially when they aren’t living up to their potential.

  59. It is December, it is damned early.

    I agree, the most worthless thing in the world is a 7′ BB player 25′ from the basket. I want CZ underneath or in close proximity. Also I want him back next year. We’ll need him even more.

    Will and Vic are indispensable with their energy, competitiveness and spontaneous emotion.

    I tend to agree with Dustin, I would have CZ in for that last defensive effort. I think Crean got that 1 wrong but I’ve also seen lots of other good coaches make mistakes that cost a game.

    Did I mention it is early and it is only December?

  60. “If it’s the most worthless thing” then he shouldn’t have spent the entire summer working on 3’s.

    And don’t tell me he didn’t because a) he said he did and b) he won the freaking 3 point contest when we have shooters like Jordy and Will.

    And it isn’t all about “3’s” anyway, Mr. Strawmen. How about a 10 to 15 foot shot? Where the hell are those?

    How about a freaking hook shot?

    Can you imagine Cody with a hook?

  61. Good recognition, now your catching on. There is no reason for a 7′ BB player to be shooting beyond 15′, let alone the 3.

  62. Stop with the “7 footers shooting 3’s is the dumbest thing in the history of basketball” because Dirk is an All-Star and won a Title because he can hit 3’s.

    If Zeller shot from there like he can, it would completely open up the floor and Yogi and Will and Jordy and Victor would have a FIELD DAY driving the basket.

    Should it be his main weapon? Of course not.

    But he can make it………..and spent the entire summer working on it.

  63. There have been a couple over-riding themes to this thread that I’ll throw my 2 cents in on:

    1) I think people are misunderstanding Laffy’s criticism of Zeller. He was piggy-backing off my statement that “Cody does not play like a MAN” and got much more in depth. While I don’t agree that Cody was ever “bragging” about his perimeter shot, it was certainly a talking point within the program over the summer. I definitely agree with Laffy that the time to see it in game action would be against the cupcakes so he could get comfortable with it and his teammates could adjust to when it may happen within the offense. I wouldn’t say that Cody is a “poor” rebounder (I’m not sure I’ve ever seen a poor rebounder grab 19 in a game), but he certainly isn’t a “good” rebounder for his size. Even though he is athletic he rarely gets rebounds out of his area. While he is the “best” center in the B1G and maybe the country, he is only The 70th best rebounder in D1… So that criticism is fair, even if it’s a little overstated. Finally, and Laffy beat me to the punch on this, he isn’t saying that IU would be better without Cody this year… Maybe it was clear to me because I understand Laffy better these days… He is saying that we’ll be better next year, with next year’s personnel, even if Cody isn’t on the roster. I have some reservations about next year, but they have more to do with losing Vic and Hulls. You have, in my opinion, the most disruptive force in college basketball in Dipo, and one of the top 5 shooters in Hulls, who also does other things well… If we lose all 3 of those guys I don’t think we’ll be better next year. If we keep one/both of Dipo or Zeller I think we will be better next year. (because Vonleh will be impactful)

    2) Crean is a GREAT head coach. There is very simple proof of that… He has taken a program from ruins and turned them into a national powerhouse worthy of a #1 ranking and top 5 recruiting classes.

    Now, that doesn’t mean he is great at each piece of the head coach equation. He is a GREAT recruiter. He is a GREAT leader of young men. He seems to be a very good communicator. He is very good at dealing with the media. He is very good at appeasing the alumni and administrators. My guess is he is good at delegating. He is VERY charismatic. He strikes me as having strong character. He obviously is very good at developing wing players. He seems to be a good at getting players to work as a team. I think he has done a good job of identifying quality assistants. He runs a very productive practice. He is GREAT at getting kids to buy into the education piece of college.

    There are probably other things that I’m not thinking of that he does well-to-GREAT, but the above list is good enough for now.

    What I’m not convinced of yet is that he is a good in-game adjustment guy, or a great individual game planner.

    I think he has all the things that have to do with personality and leadership covered, but is a work in progress with the X’s and O’s…

    To me that is a wholistic and fair view of the situation.


  64. Shockingly Cody is averaging exactly the same number of FG attempts right now as he did last season – 8.9/gm – and essentially making the same 5.4 to 5.6

    My assumption would be that he would average 2-3 more attempts per game this year… And that still may happen. I completely agree that a 7’ers place isn’t 25 feet from the basket, but if Cody shot 2 three-pointers per game I would not be upset… well, as long as they were wide open attempts. If he is as adept a perimeter shooter as he has shown outside of games I don’t see the downside. If he knocks a few down then you pull the opposite big man away from the basket, (as Laffy said) creating driving opportunity for guards/wings, it also allows guys like Dipo and Sheehey to attack the offensive boards before the opposing center can recover to the paint. It’s simply another weapon and allows more options.

    Should he spend much time out there? No, but when he pops out for a ball reversal he should be a threat though… and they could certainly run one set per half that got him on the perimeter with a shot/drive option to see how the defense responds.

  65. Great post, Geoff.

    However, I wouldn’t say Crean is “great” with the media when he snaps at Dustin for asking a legit question.

    Or going to Twitter to whine about criticism and offering ridiculous excuses like “toughest conference” when we haven’t played anyone in the conference.

    He’s been “great” when things are good. So far, when things are bad, and there are expectations unlike in the past, I’m not real thrilled with him.

    As far as Cody, yeah, if you’re the best center/player in college, you should be higher than # 70 on the rebound list……especially considering we play Cupcake City.

  66. As far as next year, I understand your concerns, especially losing Victor. He’s going to be a huge loss.

    While Jordy is great at 3’s, he seems pretty easy to shut down. Did he even take one during the Butler game? Let’s see if he can find a way to get free in Big Ten play when the talent is going to be far better.

  67. Laffy…

    I didn’t say he was GREAT with the media… I said he was “very good”. I didn’t want to heap too much praise in too many areas. I don’t consider Twitter “the media” either. I have yet to see the moment with Dustin.. Where can I view that?

    On Hulls… There is great benefit to having him on the floor. I think he is an excellent secondary ball-handler… Certainly the best back-up PG in the country. He is a pretty nifty passer. He rebounds well for his size. He is a GREAT transition defender (as I chronicled last season). He is a good team defender. His assist to TO ratio is out of this world (over 4:1).

    Those are all the ways he helps besides his shooting…

    Now clearly, he isn’t a great individual defender, but he is a trier. He doesn’t get to the FT line much, but when he does he makes them.

    Now, to address his 3-point shooting threat specifically… An opponent has to make a choice defensively. Do we focus on taking that away, or do we guard him in the flow of our normal defense. I think we all have confidence that he’ll knock down shots if they are there… But if they aren’t there its probably because he is being keyed on. The good news is that IU has enough offensive weapons that we should be able to adjust to that and attack 4-v-4. If Hulls is occupying a defender at all times that should open up the floor for Sheehey and Watford to shoot and Yogi and Dipo to drive. (or Abell, Creek, or Elston…)

    I think his presence on the floor is a big net gain whether he is knocking down shots or not. I just think that Saturday was the first time he has dealt with that kind of defense this year and neither he nor the team did a good job of adjusting.

  68. The strategy question, particularly in the form of critical examination a coach’s decision making following a tough “border war” loss to a team looking more Hoosieresque than Indiana Hoosiers, would have never been asked of Knight. Let’s try to be a little honest here.

    Knight would have had Dustin’s b-ball brain for dinner….along with some fava beans.

    The strategy(smaller lineup) was working just fine. It’s the only reason we were able to get back into the game.

    It’s so easy to second guess after a loss.

    Going Forward(Big 10 Season):

    As synergy develops, our talent will begin to reestablish its presence. Yogi is a freshman. Give him a chance to get acclimated to the college game…He’ll only get better as the year progresses(which will make everyone else on the floor all the more dangerous). He’s already picking apart defenses only 8 games into his college career.

    Next season? Who the hell cares? We have a team that can win the national championship THIS YEAR. We have a great mix of veteran experience combined with a dynamo freshman point guard flanked by one of the most dangerous shooting guards in the country. We’ll have a very talented and experienced senior forward coming back in Elston..Watford’s outside game is always an insurance policy for fast big points in Big 10 wars.

    Cody will get rolling. …The kid has far too much talent to keep down. No center in the country gets out on the break like Cody. I’m not the least worried about Mr. Zeller. He had 18 points against Butler in a crappy outing.

    There will be some bumps(as I said 2 months ago when I predicted 6 losses going into the Big Dance). Expectations won’t be exceedingly high going into the tournament because of those bumps…Perfect scenario to go deep.

    I believe this team is better built for the tournament than the regular Big 10 grind. Depth and speed and tough to match-up against…Three months from now we’ll be able to run any team in the country right out of the gym.

  69. Zeller does IU no good out in the land of the guards. If he ever becomes comfortable out there maybe the 1 attempt per half or game is valid. He is obviously not comfortable or he would be doing so. His effort is better spent becoming that big time rebounder we need. Making the most worthless statement valid.

  70. Completely agree, Clarion.

    Zeller did make a nice looking 10-footer against Butler…What about working the baselines a bit more?..How about showing a nice bunny hook going across the lane? There is a lot of moves around the post he needs to develop before allowing him to step out for a lazy Watford three.

    The only benefit to pulling him out may be better opportunities for opening up lanes for Oladipo, Yogi, and Remy…But I’m not sure if Cody shooting the deep ball will ever command enough respect to lure the opposing big far away from the paint.

    He started to show signs of getting his free throw stroke back late in the Butler game…Nice to seem him get comfortable at the line again. Not allowing points at the stripe to vanish in tight games is a far more valuable asset going forward.

  71. Holy Cow…the sky is falling, the sky is falling…..I know not all of you think that the loss is the end of the world, but what is your deal Laffy? It is a game and they lost. Does that mean it is time to jump off a bridge? For the life of me, I don’t see why this game or any game this year would cause such a tirade. It is no fun to watch your team lose, but it happens. If IU played Butler 10 more times, I would be shocked to see Butler win one of those. Butler outplayed IU, period. If anyone is to blame, it is the entire team! Where was the spark, or the good clean fundamentals. Sure, I am frustrated with the loss, but it is ONE game folks!!!
    If IU can learn from this experience as well as the fun to come in the B1G, they will be a very difficult out come Madness time.

  72. Harvard – the last possession in OT and the last 3 minutes of regulation were drastically different scenarios. They call for different approaches. Creating havoc with a full court trapping press when you’re behind and if you foul it’s an acceptable by-product is how they approached the last 3 minutes of regulation. The last possession was not a full court trapping press. It was a man-to-man token pressure in the backcourt back into straight man, with no option to foul, in the half court. To say that the small line-up worked for one so why not use it for the other is ignoring the reality of the situation. I was second-guessing as it happened, not after the loss.

    No one is questioning Cody’s offensive efficiency… We are pointing out that his physical toughness and rebounding are not great. I’m not sure how you could dispute that right now.

    Also, to be clear… I wasn’t frustrated by the loss. I was frustrated with the mental effort and coaching. The loss was exactly what the doctor ordered.

    As far as next year, you’re right… I’m more inclined to enjoy the present, but it doesn’t mean the future can’t be a topic of conversation.

    You’re 100% right that this team is better built for the tournament than the B1G. I don’t have any real worries about this team. It’s very good. I believe we are the second best team in the country (after Michigan)…

  73. Geoff,
    There’s an entry a few down with video from the press conference, you can check it out there.
    Harvard and others, it’s folly to presume that just because I asked him why he didn’t have Zeller out there and if he regretted it that I think he made the wrong call. I think it’s fair to say that if Zeller’s in the game, that play with Barlow doesn’t beat them because he doesn’t go to the middle with Zeller in the game, but it changes the dynamic and perhaps something else opens up and Butler finds a way to win anyway.
    I think a number of people wanted to know why Zeller wasn’t in the game, so I asked. And I think Crean’s explanation about being concerned about switching off of ball screens — once he got past dealing with me — was perfectly logical and valuable for fans. If I had to do it over again, I would have acknowledged before the question that he’d mentioned switching late in the game, and that I wanted to know if that was specific to the last play and therefore the reason Zeller was out. But one way or another, I think readers and fans got something out of that because he clearly laid out his rationale for his decision. You can choose to agree or disagree with whether it was the right call, but he had a rational idea. There’s this notion that asking a question implies a certain opinion. A lot of times it’s just asking a question.

  74. Chris in Denver – I don’t know how often you read the comments section, but I can assure you (and anyone else here) Laffy isn’t overly concerned about the loss. He doesn’t think it’s the end of the world. We are simply discussing things that came up in this game, as well as overriding issues that we’ve noticed over the course of the season and trends that continue from previous seasons.

    No one thinks the sky is falling…

  75. And I would say this, too. Yes, Harvard, Bob Knight could eat my basketball brain with some farva beans … etc. So could Tom Crean. I don’t nor would I ever suggest that my understanding of the game is in the realm of either one of theirs. I don’t know if I’d trust me to coach a pee-wee team. And that’s part of the reason you ask questions, because it allows people who are smarter than you to educate you.

  76. I love how you keep ducking my point about Dirk.

    You think he makes all those All Star teams without shooting the 3?

    Or they win a Title?

    It is not ” most worthless.”

    Crean said we settled for too many jump shots against Butler and didn’t take it to the rack enough.

    Gosh, you think if a big guy had to cover Zeller 10 to 20 feet from the basket that would have made it easier for them to drive, drive, drive?

    Chris, that’s about the 5th time I’ve heard “one bad game” this year so get a new line.

    Geoff, completely agree about not being frustrated by the “loss”……hell, I’ve been “happy” after some losses. “Losses” really don’t mean a lot to me….it’s the effort/coaching.

    And it sucked all around…..and it wasn’t just “one game.”

    And as far as Twitter “not being media”, a lot of schools ban the players for using Twitter because they say stupid stuff and get into fights with fans….which Crean did with his stupid excuse.

    Not sure where the video is of the exchange with Dustin.

  77. Thanks Geoff.

    And as I’ve said, the more I think about it, the more I think that is exactly what we needed.

    Not just a “loss” but getting punched in the mouth.

    I don’t think the team is going to fold.

    Someone said they feel sorry for the next team…..I agree….especially since it’s a cupcake.

    IU is going to pound them.

  78. I thought Dustin’s question was great.

    I’d also like to know that in addition to the rebounding drills, is Crean going to go back to the drills where a basket doesn’t count unless Cody at least touches the ball.

    That was far more disturbing to me than the last play.

    Their 3 guys foul out and Cody barely touched it?

    That needs to change.

  79. Dustin – just watched it… that was a pretty funny exchange. He came after you a bit. You must have asked him some tough questions in the past…. Either that or he is pissed at you because you let people steal his screen name (Debbie) here on the Scoop.

    His answer though actually backs up my premise that the defense he called wasn’t right for the situation. Again, that a philosophical difference of opinion… And obviously he has about 254 more Division 1 wins than me… But I am now even more convinced that my solution to the last possession is far better.

    Token man ball pressure in the backcourt transitioning into a 3-2 zone with about 10 econds to play forcing an entire team (including 3 non-starters) to mentally check out of the play called in the time out into a zone offense, and then into a set within that offense that will get them a quality look without the benefit of a time out to talk about it.

    Solves the issues of protecting the rim, because Cody is in the back line, and solves the issue of switching because you have 3 perimeter defenders doing that automatically in the zone.

  80. Their guards have extremely deep range…Probably would have shot right over the zone upon a tiny invasion of the spacing and subsequent kick-out.

    Hulls overplayed the move by Barlow….It wasn’t a case of being “abused” by a walk-on…More of a case the motor running faster than the moment dictated.

  81. Just watched Victor at the Q & A today and he talked about how it motivated him when people tell he can’t do something.

    Most great athletes have said the same thing.

    That’s why I laugh at everyone who cries, “Quit ripping the team” while they do nothing but blow sunshine up their butts.

    Questioning their manhood after getting punched in the mouth does not make me a “bad fan” as it helps motivate them.

  82. Emotions were high following the game. Might have been a bit more tactful to ask the question when things have calmed and it’s doesn’t feel like a “gotcha Establishment moment.”

  83. The DN example is a “strawman”. The NBA equates less to CBB than open wheel racing does to closed wheel. They got beat in the middle of December by a good team that had a well devised game plan. It’s early. This loss helps some and doesn’t hurt much. Very much like pUKe’s loss to us last year.

  84. I mean, he had to be asked after the game. Plus, he waited an hour after the game ended to come to the press room. Yes, a full hour. Could I have waited one or two questions? I suppose. But it’s not like I could have called him at his house on Sunday to discuss it. No. 1, it’s old news by then, No. 2, he wouldn’t take my call if I tried it. The next time he’ll be available to speak will be tomorrow night after the game, and it’s more than slightly insane to ask about what happened in Saturday’s game after the Wednesday night game.
    He was prickly after the game. So what? He’ll live. I’ll live. It’s part of the gig. I’ll ask questions he won’t like. He’ll snap at me some times. He’s not the first coach to do it and won’t be the last. I’m not the first reporter to ask him a question he doesn’t like and won’t be the last. You can nuance this thing for a certain distance, but at some point you just have to ask and rip the band-aid off.

  85. Oh, baloney.

    Coach K talks about “spacing” all the time and Zeller said he worked on shooting from outside so it would open things up.

    If it’s “the most worthless thing ever” then Crean should be fired on the spot for letting Cody work on it all summer instead of a hook shot.

    And, again, don’t tell me he didn’t put a ton of hours into it because he won the 3 point contest against Jordy, one of the best shooters in the entire country.

  86. I find it interesting that some people care as much, if not more, about how IU wins as they do about if IU wins. For me, I don’t care how they get a win, as long as they win (playing by the rules, of course). I don’t care if Crean wins because he’s a better recruiter or a better game manager, as long as he wins.

    Hey, let’s be honest here. Knight was probably the best game manager in history. But for many of his seasons at IU, Knight could not recruit enough talent necessary to take advantage of his genius. Many of his teams simply were out-talented, no matter what adjustments he made during the game or how well his players performed.

    If Crean wins three national championships because he was the best recruiter and motivator, do you care that he was not the best game manager? I don’t! IU basketball’s trajectory is pointed up. Crean get’s the credit for that. Until the program’s trajectory is pointed down, we should recognize that their is more than one way to skin a cat.

    And by the way, there have been a lot of successful coaches, in the NFL, the NBA and in college sports that never “played” the game at the level they coached at. Furthermore, there are a lot of former players that could not coach their way out of a wet paper bag. Playing experience may help, but it is not essential for being a good coach.

  87. 1) we don’t know the % of time Cody put into 3-point shooting versus diversifying his post game last summer, so let’s not make too grand of assumptions.

    2) Dirk is a tall perimeter player who has a defensive center in the game next to him most of the time, so the mechanics of spacing on offense are different there. But yes, having as many offensive arrows in your quiver as possible is always valuable. I see Cody as more of a Pau Gasol type than a Dirk or a true center. (of ourselves I doubt he’ll be as good at that level as Pau)

    3) if Butler wants to shoot a 25 foot 3 over the zone as the clock runs down I’ll take that, unless it’s Clarke (and that would be EMPHASIZED in the time out). Again it’s more about the fact that Butler hadn’t seen zone from IU all game, it’s a pressure situation with little time to make clear decisions, and Butler had 3 non-starters on the floor.

    4) par for the course I’m sure Dustin…

  88. I do not say it is wrong for CZ to practice shooting from out side. But he is undoubtedly still uncomfortable attempting it against game competition. So there is not much reason for him to be to far from the basket. Free throws, post game O and rebounding are 1st.

    …3 point shooting contests…simply a modified game of horse…

  89. No way do I pull Zeller to the perimeter. He’s too crafty around the hoop..Get your “and one” from the stripe. If he wants to chuck up a three when we’re coasting 20 points ahead late in the second half against a cupcake…? Fine.

    I loved the testiness of Crean in that “gotcha” moment. I’m not saying it’s wrong to dig into his thinking..But you can’t expect a coach to not be testy when his strategy is being questioned after a tough loss.

  90. 1) It’s a myth that Knight didn’t get talent. At one point, the only person who got more McDonald All-Americans was Dean Smith. People act like he won with a bunch of walk-ons.

    2) Zeller put in enough time to beat Jordy, Watford and the other 3 point shooters on the team so it wasn’t just some garbage minutes. Again….how about a hook shot? Remember Haston’s? If Zeller had practiced that instead of the 3, I think we’d all be happier.

    3) I’m not even really talking the 3 anyway….how about 10 to 15 feet out?

    4) He shot the 3 in high school so I don’t know why he’s “uncomfortable” doing it in college. And the best way to beat “uncomfortable” is to do it.

  91. Podunker – not sure how much of that, if any, was pointed at me… I don’t think I insinuated that Crean isn’t the right man for the job and that IU isn’t on the right trajectory. I have been, and will continue to be, one of Crean’s most ardent supporters. My guess is you understand that I was pointing out all the ways to skin the cat, and you weren’t addressing me…

    However, I do think we disagree about the “win” thing… The only time I REALLY care about wins (now that we’re relevant again) is in the B1G season and most importantly the NCAA tourney. (not even the B1G Tourney)

    Other than that I absolutely care more about HOW we play than if we win. The general rule is if you play the right way, and you’re as talented as IU is, you’ll win 95% of time.

    Most successful people win tell you that they have learned more in failure than in success. There are only about 100 famous quotes I’ve around that… The occasional loss isn’t a bad thing (especially when you don’t deserve to win), it is usually what ends up making you better.

  92. Tsao: Muchos empanadas de natillas en tu cara.

    If it’s “the most worthless thing ever” then Crean should be fired on the spot for letting Cody work on it all summer instead of a hook shot.

    Fired on the spot!? Crean!? Made my day. Never thought I’d see Laffy write that. Best thread ever.

    Vamos pantalones con la raya del caramelo!

  93. Laffy – on your point #4… Exactly. However, again we don’t know how much time he put in, they didn’t have a hook shot contest at HH, so it’s tough to tell… Maybe he would have won that too and we’d be wondering why he isn’t showing it to us in games…

    Clarion – of course all those other things should be first, but that isn’t mutually exclusive of the occasional perimeter threat. If Cody gets 30-40 touches in a game (not sure what the actual number is) I don’t see any reason why 2 of them can’t be designed at the 3-pt line.

    Harvard – on top of what I said to Clarion, no one is saying to pull Cody away from the hoop. He already, within the flow of IU’s normal offense, comes out of the paint on several occasions during a game. High ball-screens, wing pick-and-rolls, relieve pressure with a reversal up top… My point is that he isn’t a threat when he is out there right now. If he becomes a threat in those situations that already exist anyway how is that a bad thing? The time to gain his comfort is dwindling fast… Probably too late already.

  94. Geoff—

    Completely about the failure thing. I used to subscribe to a magazine called Success for years. And one of my favorite issues was the “Comeback” issue and person after person after person said “failure” was one of the best things to ever happen to them.


    I know you’re just trolling, but it’s called “context.” I don’t agree with these guys that the 3 by a 7 footer is the “worst thing ever” so, I don’t think Crean should be fired for having Cody practice it.

    He should be pushing Cody to take it.

  95. Completely agree about the failure thing.

    Hate the “no edit” thing here……..

    And I haven’t seen the hook shot in the games so I’m guessing he didn’t work on that at all.

  96. I love success magazine. Darren Hardy is one of my favorites. I only have about 50 of the Success CD’s in my car… Was listening to the Mötley Fools interview again today.

  97. Well, if he’s “uncomfortable” even trying a hook shot against Cupcakes, then he’s more soft than I ever thought possible………

  98. Harvard, didn’t expect him not to be testy. I didn’t take anything about that exchange personal, nor would I go so far as to say he handled it poorly. I’m not upset about it at all. Like I said. Part of the gig.

  99. I know you’re just trolling, but it’s called “context.” I don’t agree with these guys that the 3 by a 7 footer is the “worst thing ever” so, I don’t think Crean should be fired for having Cody practice it. He should be pushing Cody to take it.

    Guilty as charged, amigo, plus I agree with you one hundred per centavo. I was just saying it tongue in cheek because I know that he (Crean) does it and there will be a moment this season, mark my words, where the pantalones con las rayas del caramelo will win a very very important (mas importante) game with a last second three by Cody (El Gran Guapo).

  100. That’s funny because the tone of your reaction(when you said “just asking”)seemed as if it was laden with a tad of mockery his defensiveness aimed in return…You could have actually went with this standard professional response used by many journalists that were already prepared for Knight’s snippy reactions.

    I believe you were shooting for just what you got…a bit of theater more than anything else.

    Pretty much like Sheehey’s three fingers to the temple..It’s your call. I think you’ll make it to bigger stages, Dustin..From this fan’s perceptive(whether a journalist at a press conference or a Fabio hitting a 3-pointer against a cupcake)…? I say wait until you’re performing under the big top before making your own theater…There’s too much salary discrepancy to challenge these gods of the game.

  101. And I think it was addressed before, but defending the ball stuck in the hands a walk-on seems like a pretty good end-of-game scenario.

    The ball may never had stayed stuck with Barlow if Cody isn’t quick enough to clamp down defensively on a switch or initial assignment.

    Hulls overplayed a tad and the kid made a nice spin back. We had guys short-arming shots all day long(Remy had at least three or four that barely made it to the front of the iron). We were effected by more nerves throughout the game. Give credit to the victors and move on. I don’t believe it had anything to do with preparation or taking Butler too lightly.

  102. Laffy, regarding Dirk, you gotta admit that a 7 footer playing small forward/shooting guard is an anomaly. If Dirk were the Mavs center I doubt you’d see many threes out of him. If he were THE big man for the Mavs his game would look completely different. Danny Ferry rode his long range jumper right outta the NBA. Certainly not a washout but a whole lot more was expected out of a guy his size. He neutralized himself by staying out on the perimeter.
    I do agree that a short to mid range jumper would greatly improve Cody’s game, though. Especially since we’ve been told he has the skills already.

  103. Harvard, that’s a good point that hasn’t been mentioned that I remember. They guys were SO tight. Like you said Remy was barely touching iron. Honestly, I don’t remember them looking that tight in a couple seasons.

    Pressure of being #1 playing against Hickory High?

    Well, THAT burden is gone.

  104. Chet–


    I don’t expect Cody to be a “shooting guard.”

    All I’m saying is, he was a great outside shooter in high school and he talked about working on his outside shot a lot over the summer to help open things up for the team.

    And he obviously worked on it a lot because there is no way he beats all the 3 point shooters we have, especially Jordy, but just doing it a little bit.

    If it’s the “dumbest thing ever”, he shouldn’t have spent 5 minutes on it and worked on a hook shot instead.

    btw….while looking for Zeller’s quote about working on his shot, I found this:

    Of course, his favorite player is Dirk and he likes the European game. While I’m no expert on it, don’t the big guys shoot a lot from outside over there?

    Paul Gasol isn’t a banger, I know that.

    Zeller did say, “The film that people are looking at from last year is going to be completely different from what we can do this year because of how much we’ve improved over the summer and different aspects we’ve added to our game”

    Please tell me what “different aspect” Cody has added to his game.

    I haven’t seen anything different except bigger biceps….and he still got thrown around by a bunch of nobodies.

  105. Geoff, none of my post #96 was directed at you.

    But since you wrote, “Other than that I absolutely care more about HOW we play than if we win.” You’re not really serious with that, are you? So if IU played really hard, and did all the things they were supposed to do according to the basketball textbook, but lost all their games, you’d be O.K. with that? I don’t think so. The object of the game is to win. You don’t get extra points for style.

    You also wrote, “The general rule is if you play the right way, and you’re as talented as IU is, you’ll win 95% of time.” Well, who’s to say what the right way is? Are you referring to Bobby Knight’s way? If so, that’s ironic because when Bob Knight first arrived at IU, people were upset because it was the end of the “Hurrying Hoosiers.” Bob Knight’s teams did not run, they made four passes before taking a shot, they played solid defense. They were not fast teams, they were physical teams. To many of IU’s fans, Bob Knight’s way was not the “right way” to play basketball.

    UCLA won a bunch of NCAA BB titles for the simple reason that they had the best talent in the country. Yes, they were reasonably well coached, but before the UCLA boosters started buying that talent, Wooden was a loser. It’s easy to look like a great coach when you have the best talent on the floor. Dean Smith was not as good a game manager as Bob Knight, but he won championships because he recruited a lot of great talent and did a reasonable job of coaching that talent. Jud Heathcoat won a championship because he had Magic Johnson on the team and was smart enough to let him take over games. Indiana State made it to the finals simply because they had Larry Bird on the team.

    I’m old enough to remember the old guard NFL coaches dismissing the new offensive systems that emphasized a dynamic passing game over the traditional run-first philosophy. San Francisco, which employed the West Coast Offense, was mocked until they started winning Super Bowls. Then the coaches that had been mocking SF found themselves being replaced by a stream of SF 49 assistant coaches.

    Beyond making sure the program is clean, the players are getting an education, and they’re staying out of trouble, who’s to say what the right way to win is? Winning is winning, and the winners write the history. There’s more than one way to win basketball games, and I don’t care how Crean’s IU teams win, as long as they win.

  106. And this shot looked sweet/effortless so I don’t know he’d be “uncomfortable” trying it in a game.

    Heck, that’s THE one thing everyone GUSHES about Cody: NOTHING rattles him.

    So how could he be “uncomfortable” trying an outside shot he’s been doing forever and talked about because it would help us?

  107. I think Dean Smith is the most over-rated coach of all-time… any sport.

    He had more talent than God and only won 2 Titles…..and those were both flukes.

  108. Ok, here is one article that has a quote from him:

    “This year I’m going to have to shoot more outside because I’m going to be seeing a lot of double teams in the post. I kind of have to because I don’t want to be double- teamed the whole game. They’ll move me around a little bit because it will make it tough to double team.”

    And Elston said: “He’s added a jump shot to his game, a three-point shot to his game.

    “How he just plays with people double-teaming, maybe even triple teaming him is going to be fun to watch. Cody has raised his game unbelievably. I don’t even know how to explain it. It’s going to be fun to watch.”

    So, where is it? Heck, not even a 3 point shot, but a long two that opens the floor up.

    I haven’t seen every game, but I’ve seen him take just one outside shot…..and that was against Butler.

    How, exactly, has he “raised his game”?

    Not bashing him, asking a question.

    Have you seen anything from last year where you think, “Man, he’s doing that a lot better than last year” or “I never saw him do that before”?

    It sure isn’t the outside shooting both he and Elston talked about.

    He was double-teamed by Butler and folded like an empty chair. Certainly wasn’t “fun” to watch. And that was against nobodies and he didn’t even dominate after they all fouled out.

    I don’t dislike him like I dislike Watford and Sheehey. Just disappointed.

  109. Re: Crean’s coming of age moment. DD, you are absolutely right, the question has to be asked. That is your job and you are not doing it if you concede or delay it because the Coach is inconvenienced. More so, it IS his job to answer it, addressing himself to the question directly and without showing his preference for having reporters properly genuflect as they kiss his robe and the ring finger.

    When I first saw it, I was distracted by thinking about the game but immediately noticed his tone, his facial expression and a look of challenge. My first thought was “unprofessional”, he should watch that. You have nothing to apologize for….you get paid to ask questions and write the answers in their context, he gets paid to make decisions and answer questions about the decisions he makes.

    I completely disagree that there could have been a ‘better’ moment for asking the question. The suggestion is ridiculous. The importance of the question is clear in his response. It would have been an unacceptable concession from a sports journalist to a coach. He should have never responded as he did and owes you and the readers an apology for his short fuse.

  110. Ok, last one:

    Zeller said he worked on it a lot.

    What is a lot?

    Well, you don’t make 10 in 60 seconds, even un-guarded, if you didn’t work on it quite a bit.

    And you don’t hit from half court, twice, without working on that as well…..a lot.

    He even says, “I know I have to shoot it more outside this year.”

    Ok…..then do it already.

    What do you think Cream Puff City is for, anyway?

  111. Podunker- hard to believe you wrote #118. You don’t care ‘how’ we win (perform) as long as we win?? For some reason I recall you as an admirer of RMK who would have never, ever uttered such non-sense. The reality is, actually, the other way. If you play to seek ‘perfection’, you’ll never attain it but will always end up with a superior performance and more than your share of wins…even over better teams who do not play to perfect the game.

    If I got one lesson from my exposure to him, it was that one. And, if I believe there was a weakness in his coaching and teaching, it was his failure (or conscious unwillingness) to apply that same standard to all areas of his coaching responsibility.

    Just that, it surprises me.

  112. Laffy, while I don’t disagree at all about Cody utilizing his jumper, what cracks me up is the quoted “dumbest” this and “dumbest” that.

    As I didn’t recall making any such comment, nor did I recall anyone else, I went back and looked. You’re quoting yourself.

    YOU are the only person to make that comment. Yo just attributed it to some vague ‘someone else’.

    Relax man. I agree with you. Your comment was perfectly reasonable. What’s to argue with? Cody should shoot more jump shots. My only point was that I liked my seven footers to be in the same area code as the hoop.

    What’s with trying to make others sound wrong? Shoot, I’m wrong all the time, just ask my wife or kids. I’ll keep a list and send it to you if you want.

    Chill man. We’re all friends here.

  113. TTG, my friend, I just read post #123. I can’t help but reflect back on your, shall we simply say, ‘consistent’ defense of many, if not most, of the past notable behaviors of RMK. Yet, in an instance that, at its most extreme, MIGHT be called ‘awkward’ you stated,

    “My first thought was “unprofessional”, he should watch that.”


    I think of the many times on this forum that you defended, what many might say, indefensible behaviors on the part of RMK and yet, in this instance, you called CTC’s actions “unprofessional”.

    Dare I say that there is quite a dichotomy in your expectations.

    If that was “unprofessional” how would you describe (fill in a notorious RMK action here) had it been CTC performing the action instead of RMK?

    Just sayin’.

  114. ^ Chet is absolutely right. Crean has every right to answer any way he wants. Meanwhile Dustin has all the rights in the world to ask any question he wants. The analogy with Bob Knight is inevitable. Do you guys still remember this? Crean does not owe us or anyone any apologies. In fact I kinda like the fact that he’s the Undefeated Master of Deflections though I also miss Bobby a little…

  115. I highly doubt Dustin believes Crean owes him an apology…It’s theater..They both enjoyed the moment.

    Maybe Wilson owes JPat an apology for acting like a classless piece of garbage when JPat was addressing him at a function intended for interaction between a coach and Hoosier fans/families..? Suck it up and act like a human being. Crean got a little jumpy with a reporter asking a strategy question following a tough loss..That’s not nearly as disrespectful as being demeaning to a fan and his family at a function intended for the fans(when there is no camera rolling, no theater, and when egos need not be a pronounced as cheap stage actors).

    Crean wasn’t 1/1000 the jerk Knight would be to ALL reporters in press conferences. I don’t remember one reporter on the face of the planet that put him on the spot when it came to strategy after a win or a loss.

    Every question to Knight was served like a sugarcoated cookie from a naive Donny Fischer just happy to be allowed to sit in Santa’s fat lap. If you were even allowed to be in Santa Bobby’s “wish I can ask you a question” lap, you’d better be ‘good’ and act blessed to see his jolly smile and every tasteful godlike word falling off his slobbery tongue in your direction. Most reporters were elated to leave Santa Bobby’s little pressroom Gingerbread house feeling like Connie Chung forced into a game of pocket billiards at a Hell’s Angels bar somewhere in the deep backwoods of Kentucky.

    Cody’s release from the perimeter is too low and too slow to be any type of a consistent threat. A shooting contest is not live Big 10 ball. He brings the ball down to his knees and a good defender would strip it out 9 out of 10 times.

  116. That speed reading will get you every time. I believe, within the same thread, in the continuing post (#125); I specifically added, about RMK (seeking to temper #123).

    “And, if I believe there was a weakness in his coaching and teaching, it was his failure (or conscious unwillingness) to apply that same standard to all areas of his coaching responsibility.”

    I admired his genius, his studiousness, his reverence for history and historical figures (in and outside of basketball), his values, his earnest seeking of perfection in his trade, his product and disciplined teams, his loyalty. And, I was aware of his temperament.

    But, like with all friends. I take the pluses and add them. Then I take the minuses and add them. If the pluses outnumber the minuses, I throw away the minuses and consider myself lucky to enjoy the friendship. It’s how I handle my life…even with my self and my family. I leave the accounting to the bean counters.

    Otherwise, I’d be forever condemned to counting how many times people write ‘there’ when they meant ‘their’ or ‘they’re’ when they meant ‘there’. Since, at 71 I have Y years left, I’ve taken a conscious decision to not worry a whole lot about subtracting Y’ from them… that leaves me completely free to enjoy all the really enjoyable people in my life without obsessing over the fallacies each of them, including me and mine, have.

    But, good friend, rest assured that I have left strict instructions for when they bury me to be discreet about putting the picture of RMK they put in the coffin with me in a plain, brown, sealed manila envelope marked “Private- Do Not Open in Public”.(It will be right next to the brown envelope marked “Favorite Hoosier Scoop Blogs”.)

    I may be old, but I try to remain consistent to the very end.

    Hope you are recuperating really well and that you will be ‘at full go’ real soon, can’t see making it to March Madness without you having all your minutes.

  117. Yeah…contrast would have been a much better description.

    Harvard, I suggest you go back to JPat’s description. I don’t recall his describing the moment with KW the way you describe it. I don’t think KW was aggressive towards JPat. JPat simply did not like Wilson’s general aloofness at the pancake breakfast two season ago. But, I do not recall a personal incident to fit your description.

  118. True enough, my friend. But we should be as fair in our critiques as consistent in our defense. I, personally, do not feel that CTC buckled under pressure. Maybe it’s just me.

    I am as well as could be hoped for. These things simply take time. Rehab is rehab. Thanks.

    Ron, I haven’t had a dichotomy performed on me yet but it’s only a matter of time.

    How much does it suck that Jim Boeheim is going to pass, well, anyone, on the career win list.

    Here’s hoping CTC is around long enough to supplant him at #2.

    To think that Bay-whine will be #2 makes me ill.

  119. Yeah, I don’t remember an ‘active’ act of disrespect toward JPat. As I recall, it was more of an ‘impression’ than anything overt.

    In fact, I think that was the nature of the uproar on the Scoop.

    JPat is a great fan, among the best. I think he was expecting something more…or less…or different. I don’t know.

    Maybe we’d better leave that to JPat to remind us. I don’t want to attribute words, or actions, or anything else, inappropriately to him.

    Like most of us, I’m glad he’s back on the Scoop. I don’t want to mess with that by speaking out of turn.

  120. You said “otomy” and I was thinking “ectomy”. That would be after the Doc said “sorry – honest mistake”.

  121. He called Wilson a “jerk”….The best compliment in the world if you’re using it as a reference analogous to the many choice words describing Knight that came from the lips of professionals.

    Dustin is from Pennsylvania…What the hell does he know about hoops..? I would expect nothing other than complete condescension(in the style of our god, Bobby)when a strategy question is coming from a transplanted Amish farmer looking to build his name in a basketball mecca.

    Did we entrust the tradition our storied hoops to horses, buggies, and “gotcha questions,” or Tom Crean?

    If I’m going to ask strategy questions, I may pursue some that ask how two A-Hope projects(that may take more years to develop in b-ball skills than a Amish farmhand) and a redshirt Jonny Marlin help us more than Patterson and Roth at this very moment our drive for a championship banner.

  122. Instead of driving defenses crazy attempting to defend both Matt Roth and Jordy Hulls from receiving kick-outs from Yogi, let’s turn Cody into Butler’s Clarke before he drifts off to irrelevancy in the NBA…

    Yup, makes sense to me. Good strategy.

  123. My intention was based on his reaction to what was an honest question by a reporter. Having done that, I guess I may be more conscious of individuals who love the light on stage, but get testy when the questions get harder. Certainly RMK was at times one of those, and I’ve noticed a testiness in CTC when the question is not one he wanted asked. It’s a common quirk in coaches, who have a strong ‘control’ streak in them as their chosen profession shows.

    Just like most teachers seem to be forever in the third or fourth grade. If you listen, their speech reflects that and even their arguing always sounds like 3rd-4th graders arguing, even when it is between two 50-something principals.

    Do the rehab Chet. If it is available to you I strongly recommend ‘aquatic rehab’ as a complementary mode. It is great, very enjoyable and allows the range to come back much faster.

  124. Yes Chet, Boeheim could only accomplish that at Syracuse, the Carrier Dome and beingthe fact Cuse is in the Big E. The advantage of having the Carrier offers for home games is huge. Giving him something like 30+ 20 win seasons. How many fans would travel to Syracuse for an away game. It is close to nothing. I suspect a couple of bloggers on here could have done the same at Cuse.

  125. Again, the description misrepresents the incident involving (or really, not involving JPat directly- even JPat never claimed that or any specific incident). Just in the interest of accuracy.

    Now…I do believe that Saturday’s game would have been made to order for Roth. And, as you no doubt remember, along with you I was quite vocal that the treatment of Roth would some day bite us. The Patterson thing is different circumstances all together. He simply did not meet the most ‘minimum’, repeat- ‘minimum’- academic requirements after CTC had been able to get him ‘consideration’ for admission. There is no arguing that, it is fact.

    Not only would they have made a difference against Butler, but I would imagine Patterson would have radically altered how we approach (or don’t approach) defense. But, he would have also altered a view of academics in respect to Indiana University athletics that few, if any, of us want changed.

  126. Scholly crunch, Tsao. Roth could have tutored Patterson…Could have been a beautiful gesture of academic sportsmanship.

  127. Chet–

    I just checked myself. You didn’t say “dumbest”, you said “Most useless.” And HC agreed with you. And then people kept saying “stay under the basket” so I don’t know how you magically agree with me now.

    Glad you do.

    And I kinda choked myself when TT said Crean needs to “watch how he talks to the media.” LOL!!

  128. Po – I went Xmas shopping with the wife… Just now getting to post #118

    “playing the right way” in the context I’m using it doesn’t correspond to any “style” of play… By playing the right way I simply mean with maximum physical effort and mental composure. If you apply those 2 things to any style, and then throw in talent, that team will win most of its games… If you mix those 2 things with the Hoosiers’ talent, they’ll win 95% of their games.

    Against Butler I thought they played with very good effort, but very poor composure.

    If they win the lesson is lessened. With the loss it absolutely proves to them that they need to work on.

    Sorry I did not explain that better the first time, it honestly never occurred to me that someone might misconstrue it to mean style of play. I wonder how many of the things I write down in here are completely misconstrued… It’s going to be a contemplative evening…

  129. Harvard… You make up the best lines! Johnny Marlin instead of Buss and Roth. First, it’s not an either or situation. Marlin isn’t a scholarship player, so he took no ones spot. And he especially took no ones spot because he isn’t on the roster. He is sitting out a year.

  130. Yeah Laffy…what I said is correct. Old saying, “love is so short and forgetting takes so long”. Good journalists will not say a word, they’ll do what they are supposed to, bend their lips ion a smile, write down what you said (while they nod) with a poker face. And put a #sign* next to it in their notebooks.

    Three years later, they remember ‘the’ quote… just 24 hours before the athletic board is getting together to decide the status of your contract. Especially when it is close. Ask Bruce Webber at Illinois or Danny Hope at Purdue

  131. Harvard…you are an idealist. I still have the Roth fish bone caught in the throat. Buss??…don’t know. He seems to have been looking for a training camp until the lottery comes in.

    I don’t really disagree with your ‘give them a chance’ philosophy. But, sometimes, they are not giving themselves the chance and someone is getting left out who could also really use the chance.

    It’s my understanding this was the case with ‘Buss'(sorry, I am not close enough to call him ‘Buss’)…Patterson. Some people really tried to help him. He refused the helping hand. Integrity, as you often argue, has to win out sometime.

  132. Geoff-

    I didn’t say we gave up Patterson and Roth in exchange for Jonny Marlin.

    Here’s what I said:

    If I’m going to ask strategy questions, I may pursue some that ask how two A-Hope projects(that may take more years to develop in b-ball skills than a Amish farmhand) and a redshirt Jonny Marlin help us more than Patterson and Roth at this very moment our drive for a championship banner.

    I simply contend that Roth and Patterson would have balanced out our squad, given us a complimentary mix and extra shot in the arm in defensive tenacity and perimeter shooting, far more than two A-Hope projects(that have yet to see barely any action) and a transfer walk-on ineligible to play until next year.

  133. Right, but Marlin has nothing to do with anything… That sentence is blatantly insinuating he does.

    Also, it’s a huge leap to think that Perea is a bigger project than Buss.

    Also, we need front court depth more than back court depth. We have 5 capable guards, and only 1 center and rim protector… Perea and Peter balance out our squad much more than Roth and Buss would have. They would have fundamentally unbalanced our team.

    Also, if Roth really wanted it that bad, and really wanted a 2nd Masters Degree, he could have paid his way and played this year. You really need to let go of the Roth thing… He had a big farewell celebration on Senior Night last year.

  134. Geoff,

    I think #149 encapsulates it precisely. Marlin, a transfer, has a mandatory year to sit out.

    Butler through my observation just wanted it more. They attacked hard underneath and neutralized CZ and CW on the boards. Cody had 1 FG in the 2nd half and ended with no PF’s. CW for the game has 1 FG and attempted only 1 three(Houdini took center stage again). Together they combine for 8 boards. Who would envision the smallest player on the floor, Farrell, would tie them with 8 boards. The game plan strategy by the Bulldogs was better devised than the plan by IU.

  135. We’ll see, Geoff. I don’t think Perea and Jurkin will bring the impact you anticipate. Hope I’m wrong and pleasantly surprised by their future contribution.

    Don’t have much time right now..I’ll let you off the hook without further debate.

  136. I don’t expect much from them, and wouldn’t have expected much from Buss.

    We have a bigger need for an athletic PF than another wing.

  137. I think we had a more immediate need for a consistent perimeter threat to compliment Hulls(whether on the floor with Hulls or when Hulls is on the bench for defensive reasons, breather, etc) and a tenacious “in your gut” defender.

    Patterson looked very ‘tuned in’ on the court. And from the the high school highlights I was able to catch a glimpse, it appeared he had a nice looking jump shot that he could put up comfortably on the move to compliment his exceptional defensive abilities. Quickness and fundamentals(holding off and boxing out your assignment) can often result in just as many boards as a guy that’s merely tall and athletic. Hunger to defend..Hunger to be a team player. Tenacity often trumps pure athleticism(especially athleticism lacking in sound b-ball fundamentals).

  138. Harvard, your evaluation may be dead on about Patterson…absolutely dead on; but it is a moot issue. No one denied Patterson anything. They opened the door, laid out the table, cooked the meal and put the lighted cigar right by his grandfather chair….and he still refused to walk in. HE refused to walk in; short of kidnapping his butt (I think the NCAA has a rule against kidnapping) we could not place him within 50 miles of the practice floor.

    Roth…there you are right. Had anyone encouraged him, I think he would have figured out a way to finance the year and played to complete the cycle at IU. Karma being Karma, it seems to me we blew a kiss up in the air and it may rain back down on us.

  139. Geoff, we’re on the same page. I don’t believe a team can win without “with maximum physical effort and mental composure.” My statements referred to style of play. If you want to run and gun, and you can win doing that, great. If you want to slow the game down and play a half court game, and you can win doing that, great. I don’t care, as long as you’re playing with maximum effort.

    Tsao, I have no idea what puzzles you about my comments in #118. Maybe you should read my comments again, cause I think you missed something. What style of play do you insist IU use? Are you saying you care more about the style of IU’s play than you do the results? That’s just stupid. As long as they don’t cheat, they are performing in the classroom, they are not getting into trouble with the law, and they are playing together as a team, I could care less what style of basketball they play.

    In order to win, you must shoot, pass, rebound and play defense better than the other team. But the style you use to do those things matters not. What was that Ivy League team (about 20 years ago) that mastered the back cuts and screen and roll style of play? Almost all their points were scored on layups. I think they even beat Bob Knight’s IU team once. Was that not good basketball just because they did not have many fast break points? Were their victories diminished because they were not a great 3-point shooting team? Of course not. They won games with a very unique style of play. Their fans did not seem to mind.

    In fact, IU’s current team makes my point for me. Crean’s preferred style of play is much different than Bob Knight’s preferred style of play (at least for the majority of his career). Would you disagree with that? For example, Bob Knight insisted that his players make four passes before taking a shot. Tom Crean does not have such a rule. Bob Knight’s teams did not run nearly as much as Crean wants this IU team to run. Does it matter? I say, as long as they’re playing as a team, and what they’re doing works, and they’re winning, it does not matter to me what style of play they use, as long as they win. What about that is objectionable to you?

  140. Podunker, not sure exactly what you were trying to say. Perhaps the use of the word ‘style’ confuses me…but not worth the effort of translating. Of this I am sure, my mother had no ‘stupid’ kids.

  141. Tsao, I was not calling you stupid, I was saying that the idea of putting more emphasis on how something is done (“style’) over the results achieved is a stupid statement.

    Semantics may have caused some confusion. We were discussing “how” the team plays. How, as in style of play. Or at least I was referring to the team’s style of play. To be clear, I don’t care what style of play IU uses as long as they win. For someone to suggest that the style is more important than winning seems ridiculous to me. Do you care more about the style of play that a Crean-coached IU team uses or that they win?

    If IU basketball only averaged 20 points a game, but the team still won the national championship, I’d be just as thrilled as I was in 1976, 1981, and 1987.

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