1. Really shaky officiating. I seen a bunch of sequences that have been ‘bad call’ followed immediately by ‘make up call’.

    I just hope the bad officiating doesn’t result in any more injuries.

  2. Plus, why is CZ defending at the 3-point line? Way to many easy drives to the basket.

    40 points for Hunter? Kind of reminds me of some games last year.

    Hate to see the injury to Austin or any player in this type of game.

    Outstanding effort by Vic as usual.

    Second half was just a messy game & glad it’s over.

  3. No, it didn’t look good for Austin. I hope he’s OK but it didn’t look good.

    You know, I’m not concerned at all about that 40 point outburst. Just a statistical aberration. We emptied the bench and won by 30. If one guy had all their points, so what? I’d be way more concerned by balanced scoring and a close game.

    It’s all good, except for Austin. He had just been earning some confidence from CTC (judging from his PT).

    Here’s my hope. One of my kids had a nasty injury (bilateral mandibular [jaw] fractures). Five hours of surgery, blah, blah, blah.

    He went from being fair in one sport and pretty good in another to being All State in one and HS AA in the other. Hunger, desire, who knows? It just turned a switch in the guy.

    I hope he’s got nothing more than a bruise but I also hope this is the moment that flips a switch for Austin. I gotta hope something positive comes out of this.

  4. Just before someone placed a Gatorade towel over his injured knee, AE’s knee looked to be swelling up like a balloon. I watched the replay several times and it was hard to see exactly what happened, but given the pain he seemed to be in, it’s appears to be a serious injury. My guess is that AE will require surgery and is done for the year.

    As for the team, we get two bigs back for the next game, and it should be interesting to see what they can do. While I’m sure they’ve been working hard in practice, playing their first college game against a good team like Butler will be challenging for these two freshman. IU’s already deep team is getting even deeper, bigger and more athletic, and that must be frightening for opposing coaches. I’m glad these two freshman will have four non-conference games before the Big Ten season begins. We’re going to need them to be in stride when we start playing the big boys.

    CWat played very well today. He scored well, rebounded well and played solid defense. Anyone that thinks he’s not going to be a key to winning the Big Ten Championship is just ignorant, and they have forgotten how good a free-throw shooter he is (92% from the line). that’s going to come in handy is some of those close conference road games.

  5. Po, excellent point about watford. It made me cringe reading all of the bloggers chastising him for having an off game last week. While he has been known to be inconsistent at times, he remains an integral part of our team. Free throw shooting will be a huge key for us in a lot of those close B1G games and there is nobody I would rather have on the line than watford. He’s automatic from the stripe.

  6. Anyone that thinks he’s(Watford) not going to be a key to winning the Big Ten Championship is just ignorant, and they have forgotten how good a free-throw shooter he is (92% from the line). that’s going to come in handy is some of those close conference road games.

    Couldn’t agree more, Podunker. No surprise it’s those that questioned Watford’s heart and effort that now do their regular “disappearing” act.

    But don’t fret, soon as Watford has an off shooting night(an inevitability for anyone on the roster), the bus drivers shall return.

    If Hulls isn’t currently on any of the first two rounds a 2013 NBA draft watch list/mock draft, they’re grossly inattentive his full array of skills beginning to come together into the complete package. How amazingly different a guy can look when he gets a quality guard joining up with him in the backcourt…Though the more astute observer always knew that a simmering Hulls was always ready to go full boil.

  7. ^There needs to a be a newer, stronger metaphor for “beating a dead horse,” because in its current form it simply doesn’t do justice to Harvard’s daily posts.

  8. What I’m heard last night is that Austin’s kneecap is broke, kind of like Creek’s and he will be having surgery done this morning and will be out for the season.

  9. I myself strongly defended C-Wat last week. Very rarely do we hear about broken kneecaps, ummmm, this is now Creek 2, AE 1. Another long wait now for our next game.

  10. Watford definitely played much more in the flow last night on offense. I have to go back and watch, but I remember only one forced shot. His offense came from getting to the front of the rim on his teammates dribble-drives for easy catches and dunks/lay-ins and then WIDE open 3’s… Exactly what he needs to be doing. The one post up I remember, I think he forced a jump hook on the right baseline and air-balled it.

    Offensively, I hope we see a lot more of this Watford, where 80+ % of his shots are high quality.

    First half, when the team was trying to build up the lead and Dipo was in absolute beast-mode, this was as entertaining a performance as any outside of UNC. Other than that, sorta a blah game to watch after the Etherington injury.

    Seriously though, I want to hear from fans like Tsao and Clarion and others that have been watching this team for 50 years or more… Have you ever seen a Hoosier play defense like Dipo? Challenging people all over the court, creating havoc off the ball, seemingly getting 5+ steals/blocks every game, breaking “deflection” records, and taking charges too…

    I’m just not sure I’ve ever seen a perimeter defender be so disruptive in so many ways.

  11. Well, I didn’t “disappear”, I just don’t live on here like you do because I actually have a life.

    Wat beat up on a nobody school.


    Let’s put him in the Hall of Fame and retire his jersey.

  12. Glad to see CW play to his strengths last night. I hope he does not return to his Houdini act. He is money from the FT line.
    Myself along with 3 close friends watched the game from Nick’s Hoosier Room. We did our best to help advance the Bloomington economy. As always that place is pure energy. Sink the Biz.

    Geoff, 1 other player for IU who stood out on D every bit as much as VO was Bobby Wilkerson(74-75-76). He was a different style player on D. He was not as fast and flashy as Vic nor as disruptive playing in Knight’s help side man to man. He consistently caused his kind of havoc. He stood 6’7″ w/ long arms and incredible jumping ability. He always drew the D assignment for the opponents offensive star. He jumped center instead of Benson and I have not looked up the stats but am quite sure he led that 32-0 team in rebounds. Knight early on convinced him he would play a strong roll on the team and he would be a 1st round pick. He was by the SuperSonics. I am biased, as he is my all time favorite IU BB player.

    Do you have more on the Brewster/New Hampton game from the other night?

  13. I think both the C. Connecticut coach and Roy Williams said basically the same thing about Vic…”where did you get that guy”

  14. Geoff, IU has had some great defenders over the years, but I don’t recall any that were more capable or more determined than Dipo. What’s most impressive to me is that he plays great defense and is still capable of taking over the game on offense. IT was similar in that regard. He was a great defender and could take over the game on offense. His steels, that led to layups could really demoralize the opposing team.

    My daughter broke her kneecap playing soccer. Same type of thing, knee-to-kee collision. She had her share of injuries in a career through college soccer, but she said that breaking her kneecap was the most painful injury of all. The good news is that it should be a fairly straight-forward recovery if the connective tissue was not damaged.

    Wow, what did CWat do to offend certain people? He was a bum against a nobody team because he only hit 1 of 9 shots. But yesterday, in leading the team in scoring and having done a great job rebounding, his performance is of no significance because IU played another nobody team. I just don’t get it. There have been some highly irrational criticisms posted about CWat on this blog. I’m beginning to suspect that some of these criticisms have nothing to do with the quality of CWat’s performance on the basketball court. We should not try to assign motivations to people’s comments, but when the criticisms continue to be totally unwarranted (“a cancer to the team”), to the point of being irrational, one can not help but wonder if something more sinister is involved.

  15. Hey, I said we should retire his jersey because he kicked some nobody’s team butt.

    What more do you want?

    The only “highly irrational” people are the fanANTICs who say, “If you don’t think all of our players are All Americans every time they step on the court, it means you hate IU and aren’t a REAL fan.”


  16. Laffy, the third part of #17 was not directed at you, in particular.

    If any player has a bad game, its fair to criticize him for that game. But calling any player on this IU team “selfish” or “a cancer” or “lazy” suggests something else is at play. If nothing else, you’d think a senior, who has played through all the adversity this team has experienced, who had gone to class and stayed out of trouble would get the benefit of the doubt regardless of one bad game. And I for one will have a hard time criticizing the man who made the shot of the decade and provided the Hoosier Nation with the most exciting moment in decades. If for no other reason, CWat deserves the benefit of the doubt and our respect. But he has and continues to do a lot for IU basketball and I’m confident he will be essential during the upcoming big ten season.

  17. I don’t thinks it’s the regulars that pull that stuff. It’s the ‘Debbie’s’ of the world that show up out of nowhere, called a respected player a ‘cancer’, and then crawl back under their rock.

    Just ignore them and they slime away.

  18. HC – I think you asked for some notes on the Brewster/New Hampton game…

    – there was a LOT of talent on the floor. New Hampton, besides Vonleh, has at least 3 other high major kids. The Baylor coach I was talking to was there looking at PG Travis Jorgenson and PF Tory Miller. Another kid, SF Jeremy Miller, is an athletic 6’9″ soph whose greatest strength right now is as a spot up shooter, and will eventually go to a big name program. Brewster has 2 Syracuse signees, a NC State kid, a West Virginia big man who played very well, and a couple other top 100 juniors.

    – Jorgensen stole the show. He dominated top junior prospect Kevin Zabo so thoroughly in the first 10 minutes that they basically sat him the rest of the game in favor of a kid who is getting some mid-major looks. They tried switching Buss on him defensively, but that didn’t seem to bother him much either. Jorgenson was good in the first half when New Hampton was building a 17 point lead, but he was just dominant in the last 15 minutes as Brewster pressed and pressured all over the court in an attempt to get back in the game. He was about 80% of the offense, while Noah was the other 20%.

    – Neither Patterson nor Vonleh did anything in particular to stand out. Though that’s not to say they didn’t play well. Vonleh attacked the rim a lot, and I felt he should have gone to the line about 4 or 5 more times than he did. The reffing was brutal on both ends. Basically once New Hampton ran out to a big lead the refs stopped giving them any calls. Vonleh played some point when Jorgenson was out. He knocked down a dagger 3 with about 5 minutes to go that stopped a run. He rebounded on both ends, but had some issues finishing through contact. There were a lot of big boys on the court though, and as I said the reffing was inconsistent at best. Patterson is clearly a better defender than offensive player at this level. He is competent on offense, but you can tell he knows his job is to make people uncomfortable. He did a very good job on everyone except Jorgenson, and he had his moments there too. He knocked down a couple 3’s, initiated the offense at times, and played almost the entire game.

    – the Baylor coach had plenty of praise for Vonleh… He said that he will be unguardable at the next level, and that every program dreams of having a player like him because he is such a good kid as well. He agreed that Noah is the only recruit in HS right now that can legitimately play all 5 positions well.

    – Kenny Johnson could play offensive line for the Colts. That is a large man up close. When he wears his all-crimson warm-up suit you simply cannot miss him, no matter how many people are in the gym.

    – New Hampton broke Brewster’s 44 game home winning streak.

  19. Chet, good advice. You’re right, when the “Debbie’s” on this site are confronted, they tend to slither away.

  20. Yes Sir, much obliged. I can see that would have been a blast setting there watching all that hi-end talent. I understood Jorgenson had made significant offensive improvement from a season ago. How well does he defend? Even though he has not committed I have been under the impression home-state Mizzou is far in the lead for his services. Also read Villanova was sniffing but have not offered to date. If true though Wright runs a great offensive for small guards.

  21. He defended pretty well. He’s pretty quick and strong for his size, and plays with effort all the time. Also has long arms.

    He de-committed from Mizzou last month, so I’d say they are a long shot at this point.

  22. Let’s just pack up the program and move it to Jersey. “Snooki” can replace Tom Crean. Geoff can be “The Situation.”

    Turning away from steadily recruiting a majority our top talent from Indiana would be a grievous mistake. “The Movement” brought us back and now a bit of success on the heals of Cody & Co. has us going into full Establishment Snooki goes Hoosier hillbilly corn?

    A-Hope, Snookidipo, and a plastic Jesus didn’t bring back the Hoosiers.

    None of these prima donna recruits from the Establishment farms would have one iota interest in IU without the kids that cared about IU when it was burning to the ground(Elston, Roth, Hulls, Watford, Pritch, Danny Moore) and the final push from “The Movement” (Zeller & Yogi & Etherington & Hollowell & Co) putting us back on the map.

    Please don’t turn Bloomington into another Calipari rest area.

  23. Wowww!! Podunker!!! #17,#19 absolutely great posts!!!Way to speak your mind! And, I believe you are completely right, the criticism was way over the top, and seemed way tilted into something more than just criticism and seemed personal or motivated by far more evil issues than a player being criticized for ‘a bad game’.

    I applaud your willingness to come forth and state what needed to be stated.

  24. I totally agree, Tsao.

    A far greater percentage of the over-the-top comments aimed at Watford a few days ago were from “regulars” that partake regularly in their off-and-on bashing of ‘Our Favorite Hoosier of the Week to Hate’ than anyone named Debbie.

    This stuff happens every year. It’s called Establishment brainwashing..Last season it was Hulls and his “worst in the universe” defense(or was it just all of college basketball?).

    Watford taped their mouths shut when he hit THE shot in THE game we weren’t supposed to have a chance. He put a couple extra pieces of tape over their lips when he saved our butts from elimination against NMS and VCU in the tournament.

    But this was just one game…(wink..wink). There must have been a full moon that made Watford hungry for some game. Haven’t you noticed the extra facial and arm hair when his shots are dropping? You’ll again hear the “regular” Watford Doubters Club with their regular call to light the torches and hunt him down because he’s merely a mortal man of human flesh..And running through the streets of Bloomington they’ll chant that his loafing be tattooed to his name and once again from favor fall!

    And can’t you just wait ’til they have more ammunition when some genius by the name of Seth Disus finds a prostitute disguised as a OSU assistant coach to call Watford ‘the most inconsistent D1 player in ALL of college basketball’ will once again from favor soon fall.

  25. correction:

    And can’t you just wait ’til they have more ammunition when some genius by the name of Seth Disus finds a prostitute disguised as a OSU assistant coach to call Watford “the most inconsistent D1 player in ALL of college basketball?”

  26. Harvard… What are you talking about? Did you step into an alternate world where Crean isn’t recruiting Indiana kids?

    2014 – Lyle, Lyles, Blueitt, Blackmon
    2015 – Edwards, Coleman
    2016 – Gordon, Blackmon

    Is that not good enough… Do they have to offer to the middle-of-the-road Indiana kids too? If we get more Capobiancos and Pritchards and Moores to replace the Vonlehs and Williams and Fischers will you be happier?

  27. Hey guys and gals its a UK fan here and am sorry to hear about Erthington, hope you get him back soon. Im not like a lot of Cat fans I dont go to other schools sites and rag on their team. Just wanted to say congrtas on being #1 although there is legit evidence that Duke could be rated at #1 but anyway you should be proud of the team you guys have this year Watford and Zeller are very good players and should get IU deep into the NCAA tourney this year. Im afraid my Cats are still learning how to play as a team but with the semester break Cal should get amazing things done during the semester break considering they dont have time constraints on practice time. We will be back and clawing our way back to the top and we will see you guys in the tourney. So have fun and enjoy being #1.

  28. The Situation-

    Not so keen on Crean just using his Jersey pipeline to build the program. Too much Snooki and some of the Indiana recruits may start loosing interest and reconsidering their verbals. Don’t want to play too much yo-yo with that corny state pride thing…And a lot of these academy ballers think they’re already the bee’s knees just because somebody has already recruited them away from their hometown high school.

    Any good prospects coming out of Alabama? I sure like the work ethic of two recent Hoosiers that came from that state(Watford, DJ White).

    Pritchard was a lot better player than ever given due credit.

    A bit off-topic(like all my posts)…Just for the record(I guess it’s more for Podunker), I want ND to get their a$$es kicked in the BCS championship game.

    I was pulling into a restaurant parking lot tonight and this old fart and his wife both gave me a real “Bah! Humbug!” look..They had just exited their car and didn’t think I had spotted them as they crossed through the aisles of the lot in front of my car and the spot I had picked out to park. They gave me the mental finger and waved me by with a disgusted look in their eye as if I was in some hurry. Grumpiest damn looks coming off both their faces..Turns out the guy was in full ND attire(ND cap, ND jacket, cheap khaki pants dragging on the ground). Rude stinkers with no Christmas spirit or kindness for a gentle stranger, a hospitable Hoosier, that meant them no harm and certainly didn’t intend to run them over. Though they looked so miserable that running them over may have been a favor.

  29. Believe me, I never really thought Knight won three titles anymore than the great Hoosiers that cut down the nets.

    Steve Downing(Indianapolis Washington..a public high school) put Knight on the map by putting the Hoosiers on his shoulders and taking us all the way to an unexpected run to a Final Four. He then proceeded to totally outplay what the Establishment had deemed the “best center in all of college basketball”…only to be screwed over(Geoff could relate) to the worst whistle ever to be blown by a UCLA hooker in a referee uniform.

    Downing a some good Indiana scrub carried Knight to his first real limelight..much the same Cody Zeller& Co. will carry Crean if fortunes find the same destiny.

  30. And if next year Crean cuts Etherington(the kid wholly responsible for keeping Cody and the entire “Movement” headed to Indiana) after a devastating knee injury..?

    If that happens to make room for a prima donna from the ‘Doc’ Rivers Jersey pipeline(you know…the same connections pipeline that never brings us the 5-star that would rather play for Duke), I wouldn’t care if old footage of Crean leaving the Bloomington Travelodge with Drew Adams surfaced.

  31. My Christmas wish is double my Christmas wish of last year. CW loses his Houdini act like I wished for last season and the other half is Coach Crean keeps running the program as he has been doing for the past 4 years. IU enjoys great success when both make that happen.

  32. Harvard! I found your true talent. It’s coming up with names for things that don’t exist to create dialogue. You are responsible for many of the phrases that are satirically used in screen names and dropped into Dustin’s articles. The next one will be “Jersey Pipeline”. You will repeat it so often that we’ll have no choice.

    But the ironic thing, once again, will be that it doesn’t exist… There is no Jersey Pipeline. no recruits that come from NJ, or even NY for that matter. His recruiting connections aren’t in NJ. There is no actual connection to New Jersey, but yet in some weird twist of fate Jersey Pipeline will become part of the dialogue here on the Scoop that we’ll look back on in 5 years and say, “where did that COME from?”

  33. Geoff, great game write up. I often think that the guys I want are not necessarily the guys lighting up the scoreboard but the guys that facilitate them.

    I really should check out some of the regional schools more. Christ School is just 5 minutes away. Veritas Academy is a mile from Christ School and they always have a couple D1 guys. Not to mention Oak Hill comes to town at least once a year (and their campus is just a nice drive away).

    The only problem I have is that there never seems to be anyone in the stands that gives a rat’s rear end about the game. The games I gone to look like an extended practice scrimmage.

    Even with all that talent I’d like to experience a little excitement.

    UKSINCEBIRTH, thanks. You are far more gracious than the UK fans in my family. Duke has a couple nice wins but that’s about it. Perhaps they’ll make it far enough to play us in March.

  34. Geoff(a.k.a. “The Situation”…as in the ‘Jersey Pipeline’ recruiting situation)-

    I have no true talent..But your words still hit a real sweet spot in my heart.

    One stop was in New Jersey, where Crean extended a scholarship offer to one of the country’s top sophomore prospects. Malachi Richardson is a 6-6 shooting guard from Roselle Catholic High School with interest from several of the country’s top programs.(courtesy: Indy Star

    Jersey Pipeline.

    I’m sure there are more Jersey connections. I thought everyone from the East at one point bubbled up out of Jersey….Just like all corn is grown in Indiana.

  35. All I know is that every time I wash my jersey, it feel like I’m wearin’ a New Jersey…


  36. Harvard, using your own logic (and words), the Jersey Pipeline is exactly half the diameter of the Alabama Pipeline (and even that is assuming Richardson signs with IU).

    You should be worrying about the Grits Establishment.

    I’m all for CTC only signing Indiana players but, unless you can somehow intervene and get Indiana high school talent to quit be such shameless traitors to their state by signing with out-of-state powerhouse programs, we’re gonna have to get players from somewhere. These really talented ones that seem to be good students and good citizens as well will simply have to do.

  37. Chet-

    I hope you’re pain has subsided and you’re feeling better.

    Here comes Laffy with the name-calling again. Modus operandi.

    Gary Harris has sure looked like a possible Freshman of the Year candidate…Brandon Dawson ain’t too shabby…Deshaun Thomas really sucks.

    Indiana talent abounds in states touching our borders. I would prefer we begin to rob Michigan and Ohio of some of their top in-state recruits…

    And why in the hell does Crean not do more recruiting in Chicago? He has more connections to the Jersey Pipeline than the a major metropolitan area that was only two hours from where he spent his last coaching gig. Doesn’t make sense to me. Is he afraid Kent Benson is going to think everyone out of Chicago is going to be a druggie-thuggie like Jamarcus Ellis? Gotta be a ton of top ballers in the Windy City.

    I’m not for all Indiana kids…I wouldn’t mind some Jersey walk-on’s to replace Thumpers like Jonny Marlin.

    And many of my favorite Hoosier players came out of Ohio(Middleton), Illinois(Chicago), Kentucky(Louisville), and Alabama(Birmingham).

  38. Current offers…

    Chicagoland – Alexander, Edwards

    New Jersey – Richardson

    So even with the hurdles of the Chicago-area school standards IU is still recruiting more Chicago-area kids than Jersey kids.

  39. Harvard, I have NO inside knowledge of the Chicago basketball landscape other than what I read. While I’m sure the talent pool is there, right now there seems to be a shadiness associated with ‘handlers’ and ‘representatives’ of the players, etc.

    Considering the scrutiny that CTC come under when a recruit is late returning a book to the library, I can certainly understand his apparent decision to keep those folks at arms length, especially since he doesn’t ‘have to’ get down in the muck.

    From what I’ve read he recently pulled back from recruiting a player as the player’s ‘representatives’ got a little too involved.

    While that’s too bad for the player, I, personally, don’t want to see the program dragged back into a ditch because a talented 17 year old made some bad decisions as to who will represent him. There are plenty of schools that will still be hot for his services so it’s not as if IU is, in any way, limiting his future. CTC is just, rightfully, covering our butts.

    Thanks for your concern. Pain wise, I’m spiraling the drain as it’s gonna get worse until it’s fixed (Friday) but they are keeping me adequately medicated. No big deal, been down this road before.

  40. It’s cute how HH cries his eyes about about “name-calling” after all the personal attacks against Crean and me.

    Like I’ve said before, he’s the typical bully: He can dish it out but not take it.

    Chicago is known as the dirtiest recruiting in all of high school basketball. Either you’re retarded not to know that or you want Crean to cheat.

  41. Harvard….I think there was a story while back, maybe the Indy Star(?). Something along the lines that recruitment in the Chicago area was tenuous due to shaky AAU relationships / high school coach / and advisors to the kid(s). Kind of a approach at your own risk.

    Yahoo sports had an article this weekend of A-Hope, Illinois high school and 4 kids from Africa.

  42. Your program is only as “shady” as the man in charge. Good kids can be found everywhere. I’m sure Penn State football built their entire program on finding young men from solid “good Christian families”…Yet, the seediest and most despicable scum of the earth was running the show behind the veil. How many players and other coaches in that locker room from those good Christian families were of enough character to step up to the plate, stop the abuse of children, at the expense of risking their scholarships or coaching future?

    Don’t sell me that garbage about bad handlers and tell me about seedy kids living in the backseats of cars in Chicago…Seediness comes in all forms and often finds the symbols of an untouchable faith and long traditions a figurehead(e.g. Paterno worshiping, Knight-worshiping, and crosses) to hide behind.

    Much simpler to strip to the core an ugliness only protected by illegal 3-way recruiting calls than corruption hiding behind crosses, boardroom profit protection(e.g. Calipari’s NBA circus show and ratings for ESPN), and “Generals.”


    Hope all goes well with the surgery and you’re soon back on your Triumph.

  43. There is only so much time during the day. Why waste it weeding thru all the shady coaches/players when you have great connections elsewhere in the country you know are clean?

    Besides, as Geoff showed, we already are after a couple players from that area, crybaby.

  44. Knight had no problem finding Isiah Thomas in the weeds…I doubt it’s much different out East. Good coaches and good staffs can identify decent kids with solid values in a hurry. They can be found in all corners the country..They don’t have to attend a private Oak Hill Academy..or a Brewster…They can come from “grit” towns in Alabama or a struggling public school in Gary, Indiana.

    Or, are we now concentrating on private academies(as opposed to public schools)to fill out the balance of our rosters because of certain religious doctrines in congruence our new Lipscomb of Bloomington?

  45. How many players did Knight get from the Chicago area? Not a lot from what I remember.

    How many does Crean need to go after before you stop whining it “isn’t enough”?

    Why bring on an assistant with GREAT ties back East and then ignore them all to chase some kids from Chicago?

    Just admit that no matter WHAT Crean does, you’re going to CRY it’s “wrong.”

    The kids he’s bringing in are not only great players, but great kids.

    That’s ALL the REAL fans care about.

  46. Isiah Thomas was recruited 30 years ago. I’m gonna go out on a limb and guess he never played an organized game of basketball other than those on his high school’s schedule. The only ‘handlers’ I remember from the press at the time (landing Isiah was a BIG deal) were his high school coach and his Mom.

    There is no comparison between then and now as far as recruiting high school basketball players.

  47. RMK got his share of Chicagoland players. DePaul was a big time program back then and probably as big a competitor for recruits as other Big Ten teams.

  48. I agree…while following the thread, it seems that Laffy gets on for the sole and express purpose of ranting on HH. HH can be right, wrong, interesting, boring, focused on Indiana, focused on the Establishment’…whatever, Laffy comes on to rag on HH. His posts will address HH purely and consistently, they will progressively become more aggressive and grow more obscene. They are really strange…HH doesn’t have to address one word, Laffy’s purpose remains the same, to provoke HH. In this thread, begin with #32, then #44 and to #49. Not athletics, not IU…just HH.

    Is there an obsession here? Sort of a Debbie on Watford loss of orgasmic self-control? It had never occurred to me before so I went back and looked at a couple of other threads and found the same exact dynamic… Laffy making little if any contribution to IU athletics, soccer, basketball, football…but joining for what appears to be the the sole and exclusive ranting about HH. The obsession of an unrequited love? a fatal ____l attraction? a spurned lover? an ignored groupie? a religious fanaticism that overwhelms the spirit? a mystical and complete devotion rejected?

    It mus weight heavy on Harvard’s soul to carry the burden of a love so deep that it disturbs the mind and rejects the soul of this cascade of love disguised lest it cut even deeper in its persecution of HH.

    Who can not feel the deepest kind of sympathy for Laffy’s deep passion and hurt and HH’s unmoved emotions…pathos! …who can feel but pathos for the loneliness of that desert that must be to see his name daily without being able to move him. I feel for your emptiness.

    (Though, I must admit, I would much prefer to read more about IU intercollegiate athletics than the suffering and pining caused to you by HH’s mere existence and presence).

  49. Knight got plenty of kids from New Hampton School including his own son.

    Kids from those prep schools come from the grit towns you speak of. Most do not come from wealthy backgrounds. They come from Broad Ripple and East St. Louis and Little Rock…

    Maybe Tom Coverdale isn’t a gritty Hoosier anymore because he went to New Hampton.

  50. Well, TT, all HH does is rag on Crean.

    “Shoves his fairy tale down our throats.”

    “Doesn’t recruit Chicago enough.”

    Blah, blah, blah.

    Sure is odd if I rip a player, it’s ok for him to chase me all over this place BLASTING me and you NEVER rip him for it but if he whines non-stop about Crean….and I call him out for it…..suddenly “I’m” the bad guy.


    Nice rules you have there: If I rip a player, I’m provoking HH to rip me 24/7 over it.

    And if HH rips Crean and I respond, I’m still the one “provoking him.”


    So, the next time I call out Watford and your BFF rips me 50 different times for it, are you going to rip him for “being obsessed with me”?

    Sure is odd how he gets a FREE PASS from you for that.


  51. I forgot my favorites:

    “Crean has zero morals and is a scum bag because he over-recruits and runs off players”


    “Crean deserves zero credit for our recruiting because it was all Etherington. Zeller never would have come here without that kid and Crean will probably cut him now that he’s injured to make room for his Thumper recruits from other states because Crean has no class.”

    Blah, blah, blah ad nauseum (sp).

    And he gets a free pass from you for it.

    Yet if I say, “Watofrd was lazy”….just once….holy crap.

    Your buddy will chase me EVERYWHERE and won’t stop WHINING about it.

    EVERY thread he’ll CRY how I called Watford lazy.


    Usually with his patented “festering pus” baloney.

    No “Why are you so obsessed with him”? from you to him over it…..or his “vulgar” language.

    So, get bent.

    If HH is going to blast Crean 24/7/365 with nothing but made up nonsense, I’m going to call him out for it.

    Or is it ok to rip the coach 24/7/365 now that your Messiah Bobby isn’t here anymore?

    Back then, I was told, “If you don’t support the coach 100%, you hate our team.”

    Guess that rule changed and now, blasting the coach non-stop is perfectly fine….even if he pulls it all out of his butt.


  52. Chicago’s public school athletic programs are soaked in corruption of the worse type. Kids are literally and actively traded from junior high school on. And, neither the Board of Education, City authorities nor the Illinois High School Athletic Assn. have made much of an effort to intervene in the politics, relationships and professional (as in ‘professional’ basketball coaching that is the principal source of that corrupt world).

    Coaches are not necessarily teachers. Several of the better known are ‘janitors, security guards, or any other staff assignment that ‘links’ them to the schools so they can be hired to the job of coaching. And, the coaches become the main link to the players as their ‘advisers’ or ‘representatives’ and (they hope) eventual ‘brokers’ to the ‘agents’ that ply Chicago streets.

    The internecine recruiting wars for talent are brutal. Any Saturday morning junior high and ‘church’ league game fill the hundreds of gyms through the city as coaches openly ‘scout’ and recruit each other’s players, kids transfer from one school to another and the players (and their entire entourages) literally switch sides during half times or between games as adults negotiate their ‘wares’. The Catholic Leagues are not exonerated from the process either. Coaches intensely scout the church leagues and nearly open recruitment of public and grade school players is evident at all levels.

    Everyone ‘represents’, that is a given in Chicago. Gang colors and dress is clearly distinguishable in the stands. And, they taunt each other. Recently, one school (Simeon) suspended nine of its players because they offered an open ‘challenge’ to their ‘rivals’ by leaving their shoes paired up in the center circle after winning a tournament (a gesture stolen from wrestling, where at the end of a career a wrestler leaves his shoes in the middle of the mat as his symbol).

    The top division, the Red’ is formed and led by this group of coaches who have ruled it for decades and base their power, life styles and influence on it. Even Chicago Public School administrator, AD Calvin Davis either refuses or is not able to intervene. And, for all general purposes, neither does the IHSA.

    How far does this power extend? Several times the ‘city coaches’ have attempted to openly influence the selection of the U. of Illinois basketball appointments, the UIC job; and on DePaul’s programs. It has long been said that an Illinois coach can not succeed without the ‘City coaches’ blessing since they will refuse to cooperate with the recruitment. While this is particularly true of the ‘public schools’, some of the the parochial high schools have now become very adept at the game themselves.

    (In the case of Isiah Thomas, his mother Mary refused to ‘negotiate’ and sent her son to Westchester St. Joe, a suburban school with strong coaching from Gene Pingatore, a legendary coach; and high academic standards. Mary Thomas was the ‘power’ in her household and she made the decision after meeting RMK that his influence would benefit her son).

  53. And the bleeding of love and passion over HH goes on and on and on…. just stop and let us enjoy the blog.

    And, of course…you’ve got to do it…HH is ‘your’ virus and sickness. You’re helpless, you can not stop yourself.

    For you, HH…show how evident it is how much stronger the man you are…not one comment, no response, not acceptance of ANY provocation.

  54. OMG you can’t talk bad about a coach who turns a program around from bottom of the B1G to #1 in the nation in 4 years! CTC is an amazing coach!

  55. Laffy, no one is saying you can’t criticize a player or a coach for a bad game. I think we’ve all done that from time to time. Just be ready to explain or justify your criticism. But let’s limit the criticism to the performance (or lack there of) on the court/field for that game. Let’s not draw conclusions about the player’s (or coach’s) character (“selfish,” “cancer” “lazy”) that go beyond the individual performance. It’s wrong, unfair and grossly inappropriate to conclude that because CWat had a bad game against Coppin State, making only 1 of 9 shots from the field, that he is “selfish” or a “cancer.” In fact, such statements are simply idiotic. Anybody with any sense, that has been watching CWat play for four years, knows that he is not selfish, lazy or a cancer on the team. So when a poster like Debbie comes on and makes those outrageous comments, she deserves to get pounded into pulp.

    As for you and HforH, I think you ripping each other has become a mutual obsession. Frankly, its really boring. And it detracts from the occasional points each of you make about the topic we’re here to read and comment about, which is IU sports.. It’s really juvenile in the extreme. I suggest that you take the high road and just ignore any comments HforH directs at you. Focus your comments on IU sports, ignore everything else. Neither of you are winning the battle (it’s a battle that is impossible to win). You’re both losing, and by that I mean you’re both demeaning yourselves to everyone else that participates on the Hoosier Scoop. The other day, when Dustin posted a comment directed at the two of you, I was actually embarrassed for both of you. It’s real simple: just ignore each other.

  56. “The Catholic Leagues are not exonerated from the process either.”

    I had a good snort when I read that. Where I grew up, a river town just across from Louisville, the Catholic schools recruited and gave players, umm, incentives for their services long before anyone ever heard of AAU teams and traveling basketball.

    That was a recruiting tool for them to increase enrollment. Despite their best efforts, though, Jeffersonville and New Albany would still serve them their butts on a platter once the ball got tipped off.

  57. Laffy,
    I think everyone’s point is, if your comments focused on IU athletics first and Harvard just in passing, they might be better received.

    It sometimes seems as though you’re on the Scoop to go after Harvard and, in passing, might mention IU athletics.

    I’m not saying that’s your intent, I’m just talking about appearances.

    Suit yourself.

  58. Chet-

    Couldn’t agree more with your post #67. I don’t adhere to a belief that only recruiting Indiana kids is going to be the model for success. Nor do I believe corruption only exists on the mean streets of Chicago.

    But there’s something about the suggestive selling in many these academies that often serve as direct pipelines to certain “elite” basketball programs as rather narrow and destructive to the idea of amateur athletics as being part of a wider purpose in motivations; an idea that someone doesn’t always have to look at the world as “what’s in it for me”…There are also great lessons that can come from molding the game to pride in community, pride in your state, local school traditions, preservation of old crosstown rivalries that have pack the gyms for decades, restoration of hope in depressed times, staying true to friends and teammates you’ve played with for years, believing in your town/city/neighborhood though it may not bring you the most immediate fame to stay there.

    I recently posted a story/clip about the Clairton, PA undefeated varsity football team..For those interested, here is the link:


    I believe the young man primarily interviewed in that CBS story eloquently articulated much of my same views that relate to my feelings about staying true to teammates and community vs. programs that are in the business of recruiting kids away from their home towns.

    I perfectly understand Geoff’s arguments as well. I’m not saying the kids at private schools are necessarily wealthy or soft…(though I do believe, in this new world of rankings lists getting so much excessive attention, that too much focus on individual limelight motivates and can creep more into the process as an overriding reason to attend some of these private schools).

  59. Harvard… I’d like to respectfully address a couple points from this last post…

    1) I’m not sure that a single New England prep School could be considered a pipeline to any particular college program. They push kids to all levels DI, DII, and DIII in all corners of the US.

    2) If I were an uncommitted recruit I would have to be either really confident in my abilities, already have quality offers, or need academic post-grad assistance if I were to choose to go to one of these Preps. There is so much talent around you that you could easily get lost in the fold. The benefits of going are generally that you get used to being away from home, and you physically prepare for the college gam because of the level of competition both in practice and games.

  60. We’ve beaten this one to death but I think we all miss the days of high school players actually being recruited form high school.

    True story (and I’ve always despised the lead character). My freshman year in high school I actually watched Adolph Rupp walk into the Old Fieldhouse in Jeffersonville on a (unfortunately successful) recruiting trip to land Mike Flynn. As I recall, at the time he hadn’t traveled to visit a recruit in a decade.

    I always liked Mike. I remember being shocked when he yelled my name in a pickup game. I couldn’t believe that he (as a junior) had any idea who I was (as an eighth grader). He was always a good guy. Too bad he went to the Dark Side (Kaintuck) and ended up on the cover of SI after engineering THE upset.

    It’s not just basketball. Wrestling is the same way. The coaches are at Fargo and Virginia Beach.

  61. Noooooooo! Chet!!! You are not going to tell me ST. X and Trinity recruit!!!!!???? You know they select them for their goodness and purity….How can you say that???….I sure as anything wouldn’t drink the wine from the cup at church this Sunday if I were you….

  62. You seem to have some real connections to them. I’ll gladly defer to your opinion of their ultimate wholesome purpose in the scheme of the feeding frenzy and influence of rankings lists for top prospects headed to “elite” programs.

    I simply believe their are also great benefits to the character of a young person that believes in state pride, community, traditions, and steadfast commitment to teammates and a heart in one home.

    Call me corny and old-fashioned hick…I like to see Indiana kids in Hoosier uniforms. As I said, I have nothing against rewarding those outside of our borders that would sell their last pair of shoes to come to Indiana. I think Remy would have sold his last pair of shoes. I want the hungry and humble and not Calipari prima donnas only here for their own spotlight. Nothing against wanting the stardom(anyone that has stepped onto a basketball court knows how infectious the cheers can be), but I want kids driven(not just for coach, dollars, draft lists, and religious doctrines), but for pride in the candy-stripes and what the uniform still strives to represent in a game being taken over by “handlers,” agents, and the dollar signs filling the never satisfied appetites of boardroom suits at ESPN and NBA offices that objectify the game and steal it’s innocence and endearing quality dying from its roots.

  63. And to address a couple things there…

    1) I am not extolling the virtues of one over the other. I definitely like the “sappiness” of a kid staying in his hometown and having that community connection.

    2) I think there are an equally proportionate amount of prima donnas in local high schools as preps.

    3) I feel like a week between games is just painful.

    4) just for you.. I am bringing back my “5 Things” as promised for the Butler game!

    5) whose offense is better – the #1 Hoosiers or the #1 Pats?

  64. Laffy… You know I don’t have any issues with you… You also know that I couldn’t possibly call Harvard out for making things up any more than I do (I mean look at post #38 and those that follow).

    I think the issue is the tone and language. It only serves to continue the cycle. And to Po’s point, it’s a no-win situation.

    I know that Harvard hasn’t called me “oozing pus”, but he has called me other things, and certainly he takes aim at me in many of his posts… You just have to have a bit of a sense of humor about it all man. It’s really not that big a deal.

  65. Harvard….

    1) no one made a blanket statement about Chicago-area kids. We have made statements about the environment there. We have said that it makes sense to avoid issues when there are plenty of viable alternatives. Right now IU can recruit the entire country, so why unnecessarily muddy their feet? Obviously they have identified a couple kids from that area that are either, A) good kids; B) worth trudging through some mud to get to; C) both.

    2) No one put prep players on a pedestal. Lots of prep kids have issues. Especially the post-grad kids.

    3) quit acting like Crean isn’t recruiting Indiana kids now that they’ve “arrived”… He has basically offered EVERY SINGLE top recruit through 2016 inside the Indiana borders a scholarship.

    4) Indiana doesn’t have enough talent every year to sustain a championship calibre team. They cannot get every top player in the state every single year. As I’ve proven before by citing the rosters of Knights championship teams, IU has recruited and won with a non-native player base for the last 40 years, and oddly enough, fan interest hasn’t waned.

    5) I’m pretty sure that Noah Vonleh will have something to do with the outcome of games against MSU, UM, PU, and OSU…

    6) quit reading Crean’s tweets.

  66. You don’t snort crack…

    And Crean is offering basically every top player in Indiana… there are currently 8 offers to Indiana kids out over the next 3 classes, and im sure as the 2015 class matures there will be more.

    Notre Dame is a Jesuit school… Is that not Christian enough for you? Crean should have been all over Jackson, right? Unless he isn’t a good fit for the program… Because Crean already has a PG for at least a couple years. He is recruiting based on talent and fit, not Christian values.

    I’m having a hard time finding anything you say in this argument that holds any water.

  67. …and if that is some of the criteria he uses to recruit to IU then I support it 1000%…because it is working… successfully…and I agree with it much more than what would be considered the opposite…

  68. I don’t see the problem with the offers that TC has made within the state. If you divide the eight into three years you are averaging three recruits from Indiana each year, which is a good number. There will be 2-4 more who will surface during that time and a couple who will go elsewhere or to an institution willing to support his ‘one and done status’.

    One thing is absolutely true. No problem going for out-of-state kids who are talented and the proper fit for Indiana. However, Hoosiers is an Indiana thing and IU can not survive without a basis that grows out of the Hickories, the Indianapois’, Kokomos and Garys that fill the gyms and close down the towns every evening from the Great Lakes to the Ohio River.

    No one identifies with the passion and birth right of being a Hoosier better than other Hoosiers. The Tom Abernathys, Steve Downings and, yes, Steve Alfords are part of that cradle that no other state or locality can duplicate as a Hoosier birthright.

    Just as we see the passion and blood of an Oladipo or a Sheehey turn a deeper crimson and their very personality sinking Hoosier roots each and every time they bleed Hoosier Crimson.

    Bleed Hoosier! (trademark claimed 12/11/2012)

  69. One thing is absolutely true. No problem going for out-of-state kids who are talented and the proper fit for Indiana. However, Hoosiers is an Indiana thing and IU can not survive without a basis that grows out of the Hickories, the Indianapois’, Kokomos and Garys that fill the gyms and close down the towns every evening from the Great Lakes to the Ohio River.

    No one identifies with the passion and birth right of being a Hoosier better than other Hoosiers. The Tom Abernathys, Steve Downings and, yes, Steve Alfords are part of that cradle that no other state or locality can duplicate as a Hoosier birthright.

    Basically, all I was attempting to communicate..You just said it far more eloquently, Tsao.


    The religion thing.

    I don’t think selling Christianity should be part of a basketball program at a public institution. Going one step further, I don’t believe it lives with any less bigotry within functioning as part of a marketing campaign at a private university affiliated with a particular faith…

    Listen to Majerus when he was announced as the head coach at St. Louis…Listen to the president of the university as he speaks of the qualities he admires in Majerus..It has zero to do with the selling of Christianity.

    Stand on your own character without dragging the cross to shadow your human greatness..I don’t care if it’s on Twitter or in public declarations and speeches from podiums of how a team collective prays before every game. We know what is inferred. They all pray to ONE God of ONE faith.

    I could care less what god a player chooses to have as a main source of personal faith. When they put on the uniform, they are only Hoosiers..I cheer for Hoosiers. I cheered for Hoosiers that played under Sampson and I would cheer for them this weekend with knowing all I know. They all have the right in the world to believe what they want to believe…Those kids that believed in Sampson were just as impressionable and tied their hearts to Indiana and their coach with no less degree those that believe in Tom Crean.

    But when you start narrowing how the outside world begins to see our public institution(an institution that should value all beliefs and respect any right to not believe)selling itself(whether it be the reality or not) as only adhering to one doctrine of faith, I believe it is wrong. College athletics is often used by the media to make generalizations of an institution as a whole. It is no surprise that those in charge of an athletic program can manipulate the process in a reverse direction; use the media to sell generalizations to the public.

    Many believed that simply because Knight was a tyrant, that his actions, and our tolerance of his actions, created the outside perception of an Indiana University that put basketball ahead of everything else. Sports is at the forefront a school’s image.

    There’s an enormous distinction between a player’s personal faith, respecting that faith, and a coach using faith(any faith) to attach an image or perception on our university as a whole. A coach constantly selling himself and our school’s basketball program as holier-than-thou because he can quote TV evangelists 24/7 just doesn’t do it for me. Using our basketball program to extend a figurehead’s personal religious beliefs and thus using a highly visible public aspect of our university as your personal pulpit to attach the image he prefers to an entire institution, market the faith, cheapen the faith, as if you were selling it as being molded into all symbols our school founded in all-encompassing liberal ideals that all investigations into learning and beliefs(science, art, faith) have a place of equal acceptance and value, makes our institution appear as narrow as the deliverer of his one narrow doctrine.

    If I am a bigot for believing the selling of Christianity(which has nothing to do with respecting someone’s right to be internally believe they are from a “good Christian family”) has no place to be used as a marketing tool in a public university’s basketball program, then I shall contentedly and happily remain a bigot.

    Market the values of education being married to the term student-athlete. Market the work ethic and the belief in the traditions a quality basketball program that believes a team can still play beyond a level any its individual parts. Religion? I don’t believe it has any relevancy in the marketing of a basketball program.

    Thick walls were once built around priests for the untouchable perceptions a cross out front the building. Unfortunately, we have heard the ugly stories of boys raped behind those “untouchable” symbols protecting some of the most despicable creatures to ever put on a gown and white collar.. Simply because a basketball coach doesn’t wears a Hugo Boss suit and tie instead of the gown and collar does not preclude him from using the same symbols to model himself and his methods as untouchable.

  70. You’re a liar for saying Crean is running players off the team for not being Christian.

    You’re calling HIM a bigot.

    You’re also painting all the players as bigots for going along with it.

    The VILE one is YOU.

    Sure is odd how it’s OVER THE LINE to call a player lazy but it’s perfectly ok for you to keep telling the same lie over and over and over and over while calling the entire team a bunch of bigots.

  71. I don’t disagree with you Harvard. I first watched the movie Hoosiers in a movie house in Buenos Aires, Argentina and, when I came out I could here the ‘locals’ talk about Indiana high school basketball and the barn and driveway hoops as a ‘cradle’ (cuna) equal in emotion to the ‘barrios’ walls (they paint a soccer goal on the wall of the empty lots) and potreros that raised a Leo Messi, a Maradona and a Pasarella.

    There will be other ‘good’ children come out of the womb of other women, but none as unique, original and true as the children that came out of my mother’s womb. The same is true of Indiana basketball, there will be other basketball that is very good but never, not ever the original and Hoosier basketball that came out of this Mother Earth. It took me 70+ years and five continents to see that basketball was never as pure as what I saw in the Crows Nest at Butler Fieldhouse during sectional, regional and semi-state time.

    So strong is that feeling that when an Isaiah Thomas, a Victor Oladipo, a Maurice Creeks a Christian Watford walk onto our court, we adopt them as our carnal brothers….forever.

    Arguing about it in terms of East, West, North or South, of city of origin or ‘recruiting’ area, of NBA or even international basketball is pointless. Indiana just is the ‘only birthplace’ playpen basketball ever knew or will ever know and no more need be said. Does the water that comes out of the fountain question the earth that gives it birth? That is basketball and Indiana. All others simply mimic us and hope they were us.

  72. correction:

    Simply because a basketball coach wears a Hugo Boss suit and tie instead of the gown and collar does not preclude him from using the same symbols to model himself and his methods as untouchable.

    And I also believe journalists begin to hold back the hard-hitting questions, the investigations into methods of recruiting, game-planning, etc., because they fear the public backlash due to the protection the untouchable symbols of faith can afford the person they are attempting to debate/question on equal ground. Just a a priest becomes untouchable…the basketball coach on his Jesus cloud becomes untouchable. Never to be publicly scrutinized. Always standing on higher ground than the rest of us.

  73. And I think this is a load of crap:

    “No one identifies with the passion and birth right of being a Hoosier better than other Hoosiers. The Tom Abernathys, Steve Downings and, yes, Steve Alfords are part of that cradle that no other state or locality can duplicate as a Hoosier birthright.

    Basically, all I was attempting to communicate..You just said it far more eloquently, Tsao.”

    So, Isiah Thomas, AJ Moye, Dane Fife weren’t REAL Hoosiers because they weren’t born in the state?

    What a load of garbage.

    That’s like saying, “Any person that comes over here isn’t a REAL American even if they fight for the country or start a business and raise a family here. They just don’t GET it like WE do because we were born here.”

  74. Oh Jesus.

    And here I thought Kentucky fans were the most obnoxious a-holes on earth.

    TT has then beat by a mile.

  75. Thank you again, Tsao. Thank you expounding upon the admitted prejudices I have for wanting to keep close to heart those Hoosier traditions you speak.

    And yes, when I see Indiana kids from many those high schools gripping fervently and everlastingly to those traditions, I feel the heart melt into the candy-stripes the same. I don’t want to see the cream of the crop our state ever believe a Boilermaker or a Bulldog is more Hoosier than the Hoosier that walks onto McCracken.

    It’s painful enough to watch them drift away to OSU, MSU, Michigan, Duke, Xavier, UNC.

  76. Uhhh Harvard. You do realize that Wadford’s first name is “Christian”, right..? Kinda puts you between a rock and a hard place?

    Was he recruited by Crean? If so, we know the reason.

  77. So strong is that feeling that when an Isaiah Thomas, a Victor Oladipo, a Maurice Creeks a Christian Watford walk onto our court, we adopt them as our carnal brothers….forever.

    That sure doesn’t sound like there any less Hoosier in our hearts.

    In my heart, Remy is as Hoosier as they come. Unselfish and all about team. Then again, he was found barely over the border.

    Isiah…barely a 45 minute drive from Indiana. Scott May from Ohio. It’s only recently that we’ve felt a need to look as far through a John Calipari telescope to find a bright star in a Rivals galaxy in much the same manner to sell a Terrence Jones away from Seattle.

    And when it comes to finding those diamonds in the sky that don’t want to stay close to home, I’m all for looking to the West and Northwest with the same passionate sales job for the greatest basketball school in the land. Why in the hell just look East? Bring in some Establishment from California and Washington state. Maybe look to Texas and the Southwest. Why must we keep looking for the guy that wants to pack lots of suitcases in the backyards where Duke and UNC recruiters spend most their efforts?

    If a coach is the one of the best in the land, then he should be able to find ballers from any corner this nation. I fully understand the best come from Indiana, but I’m open to the entire country to look for the rest.

  78. It’s cute how HH will CRUCIFY Crean for “only wanting Thumpers on the team” but doesn’t blast the players for it too.

    I mean, if Crean said, “No black players allowed” and all the white players said, “Fine by us” would he rip the players for going along with it or stay silent?

    I guess I can’t blame him and his BFF TT for ducking the question why it’s “vile and over the line” to say a player is lazy but perfectly ok to call the entire team a bunch of bigots.

  79. Harvard, just to clarify…When I said “I don’t disagree with you Harvard”, I had not yet seen your post #85. Of course, I disagree with most of the sentiment you share in #85, but I see no need nor reason to elaborate. It’s ok, you need to believe what you believe and I will continue very happy with my Beliefs. I know that mine are part of the reason I pursue what I sense to be good and worthwhile friends such as you, so there’s no basis for the argument nor do I feel I need to explain my beliefs.

    Besides…if there were no God, would there be a basketball? Think that one over Harvard. (PS…keep yourself focused on me, forget your groupie…I’m stronger, more intelligent, write in a far more elegant language and am better looking than any critter that could be found in the condom dispenser of the slot machine game room of a dirty bathroom in a former Greyhound bus gas station in the middle of the Nevada desert). So focus on the good side HH, basketball and Indiana.

  80. We agree about Remy…they just simply missed where the true shore of the Indiana side of the Ohio River should have been drawn (possibly they were UK graduates and thought maybe, if we can claim Remy, God will be distracted and forgive us and teach us basketball.)

  81. A name is a personal statement. A faith is a personal belief. It has nothing to do with marketing a basketball program as if it only believes in one doctrine of faith. It has nothing to do with building a holier-than-thou image to save yourself the close examinations from journalists, recruiting questions, and the same internal and external scrutiny any other coach must face that refuses to use “untouchable” symbols to protect himself/herself from perceptions and equal scrutiny from equal ground.

    It has nothing to do with using a basketball program to paint an image on an entire institution.

  82. Laffy,
    I deleted all of Harvard’s comments too, you may have noticed.
    I have reached the father with two screaming kids in the back seat level of patience with this. I don’t care who started it. I don’t care whose fault it is. I just want it to end. This conversation is patently ridiculous in every way shape and form and I’m strongly considering banning you both.

  83. Dustin–

    I just want to know why this place has a meltdown over someone saying a player is lazy but its ok for him to lie constantly about Crean while calling him and the entire team bigots.

    I don’t see you threatening to go after people for blasting Debbie for saying “Watford is a cancer.”

    HH wouldn’t last 5 minutes on Peegs as there would be 50 people, at LEAST, saying the EXACT same thing I do to him on here for his character assassination.

    I’ve actually been kind to him considering what the people on Peegs would say to him.

    And Peegs wouldn’t threaten to kick those people off for doing it either.

    He’d even apologize to them for letting it go on for so long…….I’ve actually seen him do it when a troll takes over the board while he’s gone.

    You’ve let HH lie about Crean for MONTHS and attack his character and the players’.

    So don’t point the finger at me for being sick of it when that garbage wouldn’t last 5 minutes on any other board.

  84. “It has nothing to do with building a holier-than-thou image” says the kkklown who just got down slobbering “Only people from Indiana really get basketball and are more pure than anyone else………..”………

    Hey, lighten up, it’s a joke……

    Oh, wait.

    You guys only give that advice instead of following it.


  85. Good for you Dustin!!! I’ll happily accept your intervention to maximize civility and keep sanity and decent language a standard on this blog. Even if the intervention is aimed at my posts.

  86. Tsao-

    I have never said I don’t believe in God. I simply don’t believe putting God on a billboard makes us better human beings.

    There is so much division in the world over various religions and faiths..What is the point in only attaching one doctrine to a basketball program?

    I respect your strong Christian beliefs. I admire you for your adherence them. I don’t think you would use it as a marketing tool to build your business relationships and friendships. I don’t think you would want to work for a company that said you must be from a “good Christian” to fill out a job application.

    Have you heard of the book “The Leftovers” by Tom Perrotta?

  87. TT,

    Your BFF does NOTHING but launch personal attack after personal attack after personal attack at Crean and you do nothing but slobber all over him.

    If you check out the rules on Rivals, it says, “No personal attacks against the players or coaches” and “No unsubstantiated rumors.”

    HH has been saying for MONTHS, if not years, that Crean “Drives away players that aren’t Christian.”

    Do you rip him?


    Just the opposite.

    He’s also painting the players as bigots too for going along with it.

    I just LOVE how you idiots paint ME as the bad guy in all of this.

    Take my challenge.

    Go to Peegs and start posting the crap HH does about Crean and see the reaction.

    You’ll get BOMBARDED with attacks and DEMANDS you be booted.

    And that’s if you do it just ONCE.

    Peegs would have a complete MELTDOWN if he let it go on like Dustin lets him do on here.

    And Dustin…..he’s STILL pushing that crap.

    If you tell me to “ignore him” then you should follow your own advice and ignore me when I respond.

  88. HH, does the God you believe in hate lying?

    If so, why do you continue to keep crying, “Crean only lets Thumpers on the team” when you have zero proof of it?

  89. I rarely ‘discuss’ religion other than to assume my Belief and to use expressions that come from them, like ‘God Bless’, ‘my prayers are with you’, etc. One thing I am sure of; wherever God is, He did not mean for us to choose up sides, put shoulder pads and uniform on ourselves to exclude all but the ‘visiting team’.

    To go further would be to discuss my Beliefs. They simply are and I don’t think I impose them on anyone (actually, many who are against those beliefs do try to impose their religious non-beliefs on me, but I simply try to ignore it).

    As for Tom Crean, he can do as he wants to do. I rarely read them, even though we may agree on many things (I don’t Twitter but even if I did, I wouldn’t follow the posts). I actually think it is very funny that failing everything else to get attention on this blog, the issue of Belief and God and Religion is religiously brought up by those who do not see it as proper (or claim it is not proper)to raise here. Sounds like one out of the cookoos nest, doesn’t it.

  90. Dustin, if they don’t stop their obsession with “ripping” each other, ban them both. They’re childish attacks on each other are boring and serve only to pollute The Hoosier Scoop for your other subscribers.

  91. It’s sounds like you’ve tried my “crap” at Peegs.

    I’ll let God be the judge of my lying. I don’t think I’m currently being recruited to Cloud 654. I’m hoping God might take me as a walk-on.

    Good for Dustin for refusing to turn Scoop into pay site for Pollyannas…

    I wouldn’t want to post on Peegs or ITH…If Scoop decides to turn there site into Sesame Street with Big Bird Laffy, then you’ll kill this beast from forever posting.

    I’ll never pretend to be something different than what’s in my heart to simply be a bandwagon fan of anything.

    I’ll always love the Indiana Hoosiers…Coaches come and go..Some of them eventually die…just like all of us.

  92. No, HH, I have not “tried your crap” on Peegs….but I’ve seen others do it.

    And they were met with the FURY of the ENTIRE board.

    Of course you don’t “want” to post on Peegs because they don’t allow the lying attacks you do on here 24/7/365.

    Please tell us why you think saying “Watford is lazy” is OVER THE LINE but what you do is ok?

    I’ve asked that about 20 times and never get an answer.

    Hell, I said Jordy was bad at defense and you went CRAZY. You’d think Mr. I Hate Pollyanna wouldn’t have gone BERSERK like you did.

    Podunker……screw off. When someone spreads vicious lies about my coach non-stop, I’m going to say something. You guys went crazy over Debbie’s comments.

  93. I suggest we all agree to withhold any and all comments pertaining to religion and politics while posting comments on the Hoosier Scoop. This is a site dedicated to discussing/debating IU sports. And here’s a news flash for you; nobody cares what another poster’s religious or political beliefs are! If they say they care, they’re not being sincere. No one (on this site) cares what my religious or political beliefs are, so why would I waste my time sharing them on a site dedicated to IU sports? I’m not going to change anyone’s opinions or beliefs about such matters, so it’s really a waste of time and space while logged on to this site. If you want to have those discussions, why don’t you find sites established to discuss/debate religion and politics and post the addresses so that when you get the urge, you can immerse yourself until your heart’s content.

  94. Laffy-

    I’ve been wrong. I’ve gone too far. I ain’t perfect. You have your right to your opinions about Jordy and Watford.
    It’s just the fact I’ve not lived a very “seasoned” life that has turned me into this Drama Queen. I mean you no real harm.

    Thanks to all of you for putting up with me.

  95. …to clear up any confusion for the unknowing, uninformed or incognizant, I just checked…and can now verify with absolute resolution…this is not the Peegs site blog…what works there may not be in practice here…

  96. Podunker—

    Are you really that ignorant? I go after HH because he accuses all the players and coaches of being intolerant bigots.

    If Debbie and FC13 can be blasted for ripping our players for being “lazy” or “a cancer”, then HH can be blasted for calling our team bigots.

    We aren’t “discussing religion”….we’re talking about his lies and character assassination.

    If he was calling Crean a drunk and a thief, with no proof, I’d be going after him just as hard.

    It’s going after their character.


    Go to hell. You’ve offered this fake apology 20 times before and you’re right back at it a week later.

    The “harm” isn’t to me……..it’s to Crean and the players.

    They have done NOTHING to deserve your unwarranted attacks on their character.

    Crean has brought this program from the depths of hell and you do NOTHING but spread BS lies about him and the players……so take your “I love our Hoosiers” and ram it.

    I’ll believe your “I’m sorry” when you stop trying to destroy their reputations.

    You wanna rip his coaching? Fine. But stop the “He kicks off non-Thumpers” crap.

  97. Two rules I’d accept. 1. Civil behavior towards all 2. Decent, civil appropriate for younger bloggers language.

    Everything else, I believe it was Dustin’s intention to allow the Hoosier Scoop to flow freely. I’ve had some great conversations with Hoosier Scoop bloggers that touch on politics while maintaining coherence and respect; I’ve enjoyed great discussions on food and recipes, I enjoy knowing about fellow Hoosier addicts life styles, their travels, some histories and events.

    While I’d love to see us banish obscene language and aggressions, I would not want the Hoosier Scoop to become a single issue blog. Peegs and others are more appropriate for that purpose.

    Having said that…I’m impressed by the recruitment being done by the Hoosiers. Besides Coach Wilson, coach Ekelar seems to have been very busy and successfully finding ‘his’ type of players to resolve the defensive problems and contribute from that side to turning the program around. Worth a celebration here.

    Congratulations to the entire football staff. Good work.

  98. HC–

    Well if that’s the case, then you should all stop your WHINING when Debbie says Watford is a cancer because ANYTHING GOES.

    Don’t say, “That doesn’t belong here” to her and blast her left and right and then turn around and say, “Anything goes” when HH calls the whole team flaming bigots for a year straight.

  99. TT–

    I’ve got a question for you: Does “civil behavior towards all” include calling our entire team a bunch of intolerant bigots?

    Because that is what HH has done non-stop for at least a year.

    That isn’t “civil” to me.

    Like I said, when Debbie ripped Watford, she was BLASTED for it and told, “That doesn’t belong here.”

    Why isn’t she allowed to say that?

    And I’ll agree with you on congratulating the football team.

  100. Laffy, may I suggest you read my comment directed at Debbie, in response to her attack on CWat, and compare it to your typical comment directed at HforH in response to his criticisms/attacks of Crean. You might notice a difference in the degree of civility applied in each case.

    Also, you don’t seem to understand that when you respond to someone by screaming “F*** You” at them, you forfeit the debate because you are no longer viewed as rational. Have you ever tried debating with an irrational person (perhaps a wife that is really emotional and angry or someone that is really intoxicated)? It’s an exercise in futility and a waste of time. When you lose your temper, you’ve lost the debate. My guess is that HforH understands that and has been “poking” you just for the sport of it.

  101. Oh, and Laffy, I don’t respond to HforH when he criticizes Crean for his references to his Christian faith because I find HforH’s comments on that subject to be irrational.

  102. My guess is if Debbie said, “Watford is a cancer” 5,093 times like HH has called our entire team bigots, I doubt you’d be so “civil” to her.

    And you just confused me.

    You said you find me irrational because of my responses to him yet you respond to me constantly yet say you don’t reply to him because he’s irrational.

    Ummmmmmmmmm, what?

    As far as him baiting me, you think that works both ways? It’s EASY to get him off on a 10 post tirade.

  103. Laffy, a few points in response.

    1. After one response to Debbie, she went away and I have not seen her post any more garbage. Coincidence? Maybe, but I would not have wasted any more of my time after my first response, regardless of what other comments she made about CWat. After that attack on CWat, she was labeled a troll and is now irrelevant.

    2. I did not say that I find you irrational, but that when you go off screaming insults at people, you tend to be viewed as irrational and are deemed to have lost the debate. I was trying to point out that there is a better way to engage people, like HforH, that you disagree with.

    3. Yes, I’m relatively ignorant of why you “go after” HforH. I’m ignorant of a lot of inane things I have no interest in. Laffy, nobody cares why you “go after” HforH. You’re beating a dead horse. And nobody cares what HforH thinks of Tom Crean any more. Some of us dealt with him on that topic a long time ago and we’ve moved on. You should do the same.

    4. The two of you baiting each other is boring. But maybe you should continue attacking each other with increasing vitriol and bad language. That way Dustin can ban you both from this site and then the rest of us won’t have to tolerate the juvenile insults you both sling at each other.

  104. I agree with Podunker. Perhaps we just need to let you and HfH go ahead and get banned. We really do waste a lot of energy and time. Both of you came on this blog. Both of you can either respect the other bloggers or simply go away. One way or another, it will happen.

  105. As loathe as I am to even address this bull$hit:

    Laffy, calling out people and referring to Harvard as anyone’s BFF is asinine. No one on the Scoop has been called out on the carpet more than Harvard. You’re not even close.

    Alluding to posters on the Scoop as somehow collectively responding, criticizing, berating, ganging up, or whatever, in response to you is quite narcissistic. I know I personally have made every attempt to be even handed with you and, back when you used to post about IU athletics, I even found your posts, though frequently heated, to be reasonable and, even though I didn’t always agree, I thought they had merit. As far as I could tell in my cursory reading of other responses, that was the general consensus.

    While you and Harvard seem to be intent on taking turns in your game of tit for tat, and I’ve never made any attempt to keep score (and I never will), as far as I can tell, you’ve ceased to post anything other than to snipe at Harvard. He certainly goes after you just as much as you go after him but he does occasionally post about IU athletics as well. At least in a fashion. He doesn’t direct EVERY post (though, still, way too many) in your direction.

    The nature of your guys childish little feud is such that I cannot even determine if there is actually any legitimate complaint regarding how you’re being dealt with as an IU fan whose comments are being unfairly disregarded or if you are fighting for the sake of fighting.

    It’s tiresome. We don’t care. Start your own site and get pissy with each other somewhere else.

    While my earlier comment about the two of you being the same person in a Norman Bates disillusion was purely tongue in cheek, it was perhaps healthier than the reality.

    Dude, this is a sports board for a program that is going through a delightful period of great expectations. You and Harvard are making every effort to have the rest of us just want you to go away…and there is no reason for it. When you post about IU athletics, we like it. We find it entertaining. You’re not stupid, though you put on a good act. We want to correspond with you about your opinions on IU sports, nothing else.

    When you start ragging on each other we just want you to go away.

    It’s completely up to you.

    BTW. Feel free to go after me but, if you choose to, let me give you my email so you can spare everyone else.

  106. Chet,

    Hell you do even better when your medicated. How ya doing, counting the days? It’ll be Friday soon. When this is over don’t forget to buy Ruthie 6 hours at the massage, spa, nails, hair and be pampered store before supper at that favorite eatery.


  107. Thought about you and worried you had not posted earlier today.. How you doing? Tell Ruthie she seems to be a heck of a lot better for your disposition than the rubber hot water bottle my ex used to throw me from the other side of the room when I’d complain about cold on my back.

    Hope it goes well. We’re counting on you at power forward for the Hoosier Scoop All Star barn storming tour in March. Hear we have dates in Oolitic, Eminence, Freedom and Worthington. Ruthie gets to put the cheer leading squad together.

    We’re trying to get Harvard eligible, but its tough….

  108. p.s. Agree with Clarion, but then we knew his potential when we recruited him. Anybody hear from Mass Hoosier…we may need his kid.

  109. Brad Stevens “all ears” about Butler / IU home-home series.
    That would be nice but would not want to mess with the IU/Butler/ND/other school Classic.

  110. “Bloomington South girls 107 – 2”

    That sucks for BHSS. They’ll get all sorts of heat and their crime was that the other team sucked. So, they scored 3.5 points per minute, more or less. Against an incompetent team that’s not all that much.

    Blast the Arlington coach for not figuring out… anything.

    One of my kids was playing against a private Catholic school in a youth league game that couldn’t put up a fight. At half time the coach told the guys to run the offense but don’t shoot. The ball movement looked great but when the layup was there they’d dribble on through to the baseline.

    As it wasn’t a high school game no one had any problems letting the clock run continuously.

    People are a little to quick to blast the winners in those kind of games. It’s not like they pressed the whole game and left the starters in.

  111. Chet–

    I think you’re wrong that TT is not HH’s BFF as he’s been doing nothing but blowing him kisses lately while ripping me.

    Hope your back is doing well.

  112. That score is unbelievable. There are many things the coach can do about it to control it without telling his players not to score. Way back when (in my 30’s or early 40’s, while coaching) we were playing a not very good basketball team from the Chicago Catholic League (St. Bens) and things got out of control, in our favor, quickly. The score was 31-2 at halftime.

    We changed from a man to man defense to a zone. I told the players that they could not put the ball down on the floor, period- even on our half of the floor (penalty-get pulled off), no shot that was not preceded by 15 passes minimum without St. Bens touching the ball (what Crean calls ‘deflections’- a good measure of defensive activity), nor could they put the ball down on a dribble-drive. My team was very ready for these limitations, we used to practice a minimum of 20-30 minutes per day with a flat basketball (no air). Did wonders for our individual movement, rotation, spacing, picks and screens and movement of the ball to the opposite side and around the perimeter (inside players coming out to help the man with the ball, offering from help side, etc). (By the way, since the ball in practice was frequently flat, the positioning for rebounds under the basket was pure carnage).

    At the beginning of the second half, I went to the mid court line, waved the other coach over and (quietly)told him we would sit (‘we’re going to work on…’) in the zone the entire half. I believe we won 56-11, something like that.

    I don’t care what the issue is. At some point the good coach has to think of the game of basketball, the humiliation of the opponent, the fact that you are looking at 10 girls who will remember and hate the sport for the rest of their lives…, and that your own team gains absolutely nothing from remembering the experience. But, the opposing (the losing) coach…had I been a school administrator, would have been quickly relieved as head coach. It is his/her responsibility to prepare the team to put up some opposition and to prepare the players to compete in life.

    There’s nothing to boast about here. Neither for Arlington nor for Bloomington South.

  113. TTG, let me know when you and Chet/Ruthie are finished blowing your own horns. How many of you experts ever wore an IU jersey? But you are experts. Do you know what an expert is, “It’s a drip under pressure.” By the way, I have my Rose Bowl Medallion, because I was a member of the 1967 Rose Bowl Team. Do either of you have a Rose Bowl Medallion.

  114. Hey I was there to. Don’t remember seeing you. But there was one guy on defence who missed his assignment 3 times in a row. I remember thinking that guy should have a “?” on his jersey instead of a number. Was that you.?

  115. ??? we have so much in common. I guess you got on a plane after the Rose Bowl, with your Medallion and flew back to Bloomington, right. I got on a plane a few days later and flew to SE Asia. There I was a M-16 and told to kill people. A lot of people. I was finally sent home, with paperwork for a medal, I mean a medallion. Unfortunately after I landed, I met a very unfriendly hippie-type person who for some reason called me a name and spit on me. After I broke nearly every bone in his body the paperwork for my medal, I mean medallion was apparently lost. Sure glad you got to keep your medallion. And true, I’m still working on anger management.

  116. I did, indeed, wear the Crimson but I was just a lowly wrestler. Not even a particularly notable one, at that. After I graduated my career path was similar to Ron’s. Different part of the world, different tools, same job description.
    I don’t remember encountering anyone with a medallion, either.

    That must be really be something.

  117. Interesting…you played for Herb Fairfield, Jay Fry, Nick Moroutzis, Jake Van Schoyck, Bob Baker, Gooner Brown, certainly not Pont himself…nahhh…none of those guys would ever sign anything ??????

    Nor would they call it a ‘medallion’. You weren’t there.

  118. Ron, my respect and gratitude for your non-medallion…that was more than well earned and you certainly are still owed. My son received three of the Bronze ones over the last 20+ years and we’re certainly proud of him, you and Chet in this house. My deepest respect.

  119. TTG, you are correct, I played for those coaches and others. I guess even with all of your inside knowledge of the IU football program that you never received your medallion. Check with all of your buddies at IU athletics, I am positive that they will tell that a medallion exists and who they were given to.

    By the way I seriously doubt that Don Silas attended IU football games and read books while sitting in the stands.

    I was there, your are the person that wasn’t there ever.

  120. ???,

    How fast did OJ make the wind blow when he ran by you? Just curious since you were there and I was not.

  121. OJ really did not beat us that day. We were a very good defensive team. All of the talk of Gonso, Isenbarger and Butcher aside, our defense was outstanding.

    I did not post to make myself an issue. I get tired of TTG and Chet and their monopoly of “knowing” everything. Neither of them knows much, from what I can tell.

    Don Silas could not run offensive plays against tackling dummies without falling down. TTG says that Don read books while watching games. I knew Don, I doubt that TTG did.

  122. Junior I am not sure you were there. I watched that game, intently, and your thoughts do not jive with mine. The IU D thought OJ brought the end zone with him. He gained almost 130 yards and scored 2 TD’s. It was the D for USC that was damn good by holding the Hoosiers to a FG in the 1st half and zip in the 2nd. Here is something else rather surprising, OJ was named MVP of that Rose Bowl. And OJ did not beat you that day??? That medallion has tarnished your memory.

  123. ???, giving you the benefit of the doubt, what does you having played 44 years ago have anything to do with anyone’s comments on this blog? Just because you did something 44 years ago does not invalidate another person’s opinion. And furthermore, I don’t recall Tsao, Chet or anyone else ever describing themselves as experts about anything. This site is for offering our opinions about various IU sports. We share comments and debate each other’s opinions. Based on your experience, you should have lots of opinions about IU sports. Try offering them some time and the participants on the Hoosier Scoop can judge how worthy they are. Otherwise, please be aware that any idiot can come on a site like this and criticize others. That requires no talent or expertise at all.

  124. Well, it doesn’t bother me in the least. I may (or may not) be the only aviator that regularly posts here but, the thing is, I haven’t occupied a left seat in close to 30 years. Anyone with a subscription to a military aviation magazine would know more about the specs and NATOPS of current tactical aircraft than I would.

    I’m pretty sure the same goes for playing football 44 years ago.

    Keep that thing polished and close at hand. As for me, I haven’t laid eyes on my wings in 20 years. I’m not even sure where they are.

  125. Damn good thing you have that medallion to remind you of the game because your memory of how it transpired sure has failed you. “OJ really did not beat us that day”. Really! How silly. By the way, please answer my question, how fast did OJ make the wind blow when he ran past you.

  126. ????…no one on this blog has anything but fond memories of the 1967 Rose Bowl team, yours are the first I’ve seen that show bitterness. Makes no sense whatsoever. Enjoy your medallion anyway.

    If reading this blog or the posters, with obvious love for the Hoosiers as shared by Podunker, Hoosier Clarion, Chet, myself and others recall or debate upsets you, I’d suggest you take your medallion, put it on a table and stare at it. It will be good therapy and make you feel better.

    Hoosier Clarion is right. I remember Kevin Duffy (LB) describing putting OJ in his sights and ‘grabbing an arm full of air’.

    Regardless,… I plan to continue posting, debating and recalling lots of Hoosier stories about lots of Hoosier heroes with Hoosier friends here. If it upsets you, I suggest you skip them.

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