1. DD’s commentary is always impressive. I’m a NY entertainment lawyer. my firm will rep you anytime you want to move to the NYC media market. But don’t do it!!!

  2. DD was saying the other day that the ONLY move consideration was Billings Montana. Can’t tell you how many times he has said NY, LA, Atlanta, Miami and that island out in the Pacific held him no interest.

  3. Agreed. Dustin is worth his weight in gold.

    In fact, maybe we have his new moniker: Gold Dust in.

    I only propound such bad humor in reliance on my remote location and the fact that he’s unlikely to spend the time and energy to track me down!

  4. Jeremy, I thought you did a hell of a job there too…

    You know what irks me a tad? When I see Adrien Payne becoming a more polished offensive player than Cody. I believe with all my heart that Zeller is more talented, but I’m confused that we use him in such limited ways. He scores 99% of his points on shots inside 8 ft or FT’s he gets from getting foul on shots within 8 ft.

    I’m not saying that Cody should be taking 5+ perimeter shots every game, but in certain match-ups he doesn’t have an advantage in the post. Nix physically dominates him inside 8 ft, yet those were the only opportunities we gave Cody in the first half. In the second half he took that elbow jumper and the drive from the top of the key, but that still wasn’t enough in my opinion. It just seems that part of the game plan should have been to try to make Nix leave the paint to guard Zeller. That would create a total mismatch and probably some quick fouls. Instead we just let those 2 bang it out all game long and Nix got the better of the match-up on both ends.

    I guess my point is that Cody has the skill to do what Payne did yesterday. Izzo puts Payne in position to do those things and the trust to allow him to be successful. Gonzaga is very creative in how they get Olynyk different looks from different spots on the floor. I’d like to see a bit more variation in Cody’s touches so defenses have to adjust in more ways. He’s too skilled to limit him they we way are now.

    Oh, and, it was awesome beating MSU.

  5. As a follow up note… We are waaaay more creative in how we get Watford touches in the half court. We don’t feature Watford quite as much, but I can almost always tell when they are running something to get him the ball – that’s when Watford starts cutting hard, they set a couple good cross screens, the ball moves with intention, then Watford reads where the open space is off the screen and they get him the ball there. Sometimes it’s on the block, sometimes it’s around the FT line and sometimes it at the mid-post… And those sets are in addition to whatever touches Wat gets in transition or the flow of the half court.

  6. Geoff, how can you POSSIBLY say a college kid dominated Cody in the paint when most of the “experts” on here are predicting he’s going to be an NBA All-Star his second year in the League?

    Cody proved at Butler he can “bang with the boys”…..

  7. Nix didn’t pick up his 1st foul until 9:15 to go in the first half. It was on a reach in on a defensive rebound by Cody 90 ft from the basket.

    Nix picked up his 2nd foul with 16:28 to go in the second half, fouling Dipo after a steal.

    Nix picked up his 3rd foul at 13:01 mark, against Zeller, who missed the front end of a 1-&-1.

    Nix picked up his 4th foul with 7:10 to play after turning the ball over. Cody wasn’t even in the game when it happened.

    Nix played 31 minutes… That’s 5 more than his season average. Foul trouble did not effect his playing time nor his productivity.

    Further, our gameplan, and specifically the ways we used Cody on offense, created only one of the 4 fouls committed by Nix.

  8. There you go again Laffy, Throwing the players and team under the bus and bringing up our overtime loss to Butler again for the 100th time. We all know they lost to a good Butler team so have 16 other teams. I thought you said and I quote “I will give the team props when IU beat teams like Michigan, Michigan State, Ohio State, etc”. Why no Props? Why do you continue to constantly bring up Butler. Why don’t you go to their site and give comments? Butler is my 2nd favorite team after IU but if IU beat Butler I would not constantly bring it up in their face every time I could as you do. Get a new record because this one is old and tired. Instead of being so negative offer some constructive comments that might be ways to improve our team because you think they are so bad. Surely you have some ideas other than this negative Butler issue and I mean positive ideas. There must be something in you head positive because you have little trouble finding negative things. What positive steps do you think IU should take to win this year’s Nation Championship?

  9. I didn’t “throw him under the bus”, Gilligan.

    In case you missed it, even Geoff criticized him.

    And so did the national media.

    The PLAYER OF THE YEAR should have more than 2 baskets….or whatever he got……again.

    And I brought up Butler because I’m being called “mindless” for saying he won’t be an NBA All-Star. It’s called “backing up my point.”

    You guys should try that instead of just speaking from emotion and then wetting yourself when people use actual facts.

    I hate to break it to ya but “running fast” is not uncommon in the NBA. And they do play basketball. It’s not a track meet. Cody can’t bang with college kids so he’ll get destroyed in the NBA.

    I did give them props. I said “good game guys” and even singled out a couple of players.

  10. What “positive steps”?

    Cody has to grow some balls and demand the ball more.

    Like the CBS article said, he needs to play like Victor more.

    Unless/until he does that, we won’t sniff the Final Four.

  11. Lowest common denominator, calling someone names…typical of a Laffy comment!

    Again this is a TEAM game and I promise you there will be times this season when CZ is a dominate force. We have so many weapons and not everyone can score 20 every night. In Laffy’s world every guy should have 20 and 10 each and every ballgame or we will never make it to the final four.

    Beating Mich. St isn’t good enough, we should beat everyone and by 20 no less!!!

    Laffy logic at it’s best!!!

  12. 1..Geoff. You need to stop with the data & facts. It reeally messes up discussions.

    2..I did not research this, but it seems as if Cody get his points when the rest of the team is having problems?
    If & when the other 6-7 guys rotating are hitting, it’s not a big deal when CZ is defending and distributing. If CZ were to stay another year with Luke Fischer coming in, I wonder how Cody’s game would change. When it comes down to it I’m sure glad Cody picked IU.

    3..Laffy. Cody will never “play like Vic”. Vic has turned into something special. Will we ever again have such a diverse player? 99% of the current BB players in D1
    can not play like Vic. Down the road 5-10 years I believe he will be taked about in the sentence as Big O, Dr. J, maybe Jerry West? Well maybe not, but he is sure leaving a legacy in IU BB. He will be gold for some NBA team. Like to see his in the Olympics.

    I hope, if his father takes an oppurtunity to watch Vic play a game in Assembly Hall, that all steps are taken by CTC/Staff/Administration and the student section to show the love we have for Vic. I mean pull out all the stops. Would IU be allowed to pay for such a visit.

  13. I’m trying to figure out at what point Laffy lost his marbles.

    Anyone know?

    He USED to be a lower-profile guy with the occasional sharp observation. I remember him being generally being high the team and coach.

    Then somewhere in the recent past he went APE sh!t, ate a bad apple, and pulled a “180” in terms of attitude and optimism.

    Maybe a “mid life” issue?

    Did he go “Breaking Bad” in the Nevada desert and suddenly decide to become a blogging badass?

    Who knows.

    But is sure is


    to see him SUDDENLY pouring it on in the role of outspoken critic.

    The Hoosier Scoop’s answer to SKIP BAYLESS!

  14. In case you missed it, Bart, I was responding to the personal insult from Chet.

    You also might want to get your lips off Zeller’s butt because Izzo also agreed with me….as well as the CBS writer……among others.

    Is Izzo an idiot that knows nothing about basketball?


    And, Goofy, I “lost optimism” when I actually watched them play.

    Cody is soft and Jordy is easy to shut down. And Watford is still usually lazy. And we suck at free throws…..kinda important in close tournament games.

    And in case you missed it, I’ve said we still have a shot to win it all…….so that’s sounds like optimism to me.

  15. i’m with geoff. cody establishing his outside shot would do much to help him and the team. pulling the opposing team’s big man away from the basket is always a good thing. shot fake drives, drawing fouls, offensive rebounding. that sort of thing. crean really blew it by not making that a priority early in the season. may be too late now as cody clearly lacks confidence in his jumper. that’s a shame because he clearly looks capable.

    on another note, yogi’s jumper is finally coming around and i expect him to continue to be a double-digit scorer the rest of the way. i think his continued improvement through the season could be the deciding factor in a national championship run.

  16. Hard to be humble when I’m right all the time.

    I said very early that Cody needed to practice his outside shot against the Cupcakes or it was going to bite us later.

    And I agree that Crean screwed the pooch by not making him do it…..especially after his bragging how he practiced it all summer long for the very reasons we’ve stated.

  17. First off, thanks you guys. Much appreciated.
    Geoff, this is a little bit devils’ advocate-y, and I will remind the group before saying this that I’m fully aware that there are a number of posters on here that would be a better coach than I would be and that I could not competently coach pee-wee league.
    But in regards to the Payne-Zeller comparison, doesn’t it have a lot to do with position? Not that positions mean what they used to mean, but Payne is the power forward on that team and Nix is the center, so in terms of what MSU does with him, isn’t the better comparison Watford, and therefore also, doesn’t yesterday’s game prove that MSU isn’t doing nearly enough to take advantage of Payne’s perimeter skills?
    For all the talk about Zeller adding to his perimeter game — and that drive at the end of Sunday’s game is very much what we are talking about — the expectations probably should’ve been tempered (by the media but also by Crean) about exactly how much time he was going to spend on the perimeter. It’s apparent by how this team operates that Crean never planned on running 5-out offense and a big part of the team’s spacing is having Zeller inside to have a post presence that opens up the perimeter. There probably are chances to get him shots from 10-15 feet out, but when is a mid-range jump shot by your center (even if that center is a good jump shooter) the best shot available?

  18. Dustin,

    Sorta… Payne is a PF by NBA standards that would play C on most college teams. He is also listed as a center on the roster and started at C last year next to Green. He just happens to have a much less mobile and stronger post player in Nix next to him. If Cody played on MSU he would be the “PF” and Nix would spend more time in the post.

    I’m also, and I believe I stated this, not advocating that Cody spend an inordinate amount of time outside the paint. I just think that certain match-ups dictate certain ways of attacking. Against Minnesota I think Cody should spend 95% of the time in the post and they should play through him to the extent it doesn’t mess up the flow. Against MSU I think he needs to diversify the way he attacks… Let me re-state that… I think Crean should diversify the way he uses Cody to take advantage of his quickness and perimeter skill. Outside 10 ft on the catch – advantage Cody. Inside 10 ft on the catch – advantage Nix.

    As far as what MSU is doing with Payne, my guess is you’ll continue to see growth in his game. He has proven he can knock down shots, so he’ll probably earn more freedom. He has never been a featured offensive player, but much like Dipo is doing, Payne may force his way into being featured. Unlike Dipo he’s had to play second fiddle to a star at the same position as him for the last couple years. Considering he’s averaging 14 ppg and is 6-7 on 3’s his last 5 games I’d say Izzo is learning his value.

  19. Dustin, that’s the second time I’ve seen you say, “When we/they talked about Cody’s perimeter game over the summer, that (driving from outside the 3 point line) is what we were talking about.

    I beg to differ.

    I don’t recall ANY talk about “driving from way outside”…..it was always SHOOTING from outside. Not just 3’s, but 10 t0 15 feet out.

    I’ve seen Cody do “the drive” twice now. It worked because teams weren’t ready for it.

    Now that they have film of it, and know he wants to do it more, I think teams are going to be better prepared for it.

    He doesn’t need to be an “outside shooter.” He should take 1 or 2 shots to keep the defense honest and open things up.

    You know…..for the exact reasons he gave for spending so much time on it.

  20. It wasn’t ALWAYS shooting. (By the way, and this isn’t just you but you’re obviously a fan of this rhetorical method. Why does everybody think putting a word in all capital letters adds to the validity of the statement?) It was perimeter skill in general. Shooting was a part of that. There was definitely talk about his handle. I know cuz I was there. Maybe I didn’t make this clear enough, but it was definitely part of the discussion. I definitely mentioned the idea of him actually taking ball screens and driving off of them as opposed to setting them and rolling. (But yes, Crean did say Zeller would shoot 3’s and he by and large hasn’t.)
    In terms of opening the defense up, this is something I don’t know for certain because I haven’t done any sort of film breakdown with it. But in terms of floor spacing and “opening the defense up,” has there been a preponderance of situations in which Zeller has come out beyond the foul line or the 3-point arc and his defender has not followed him because his defender did not respect his range? And has that on some level led to offensive failures? I honestly don’t know this, and am asking for the insight of others.

  21. In addition, I will admit that — especially considering the lack of access — the media is ill-equipped to give true perspective to how much time a player is spending on anything. We don’t see it, so we’re providing the best explanations we can based on what coaches and players tell us, but we can almost never truly put in perspective how much time effort and what not a player is putting into one specific aspect of his game compared to other aspects, and also on what level that might be detracting from something else. I think sometimes people hear that someone is spending more time on their perimeter game, they immediately start believing that they stopped doing the Mikan drill. I say that just to point out that just because someone says that they spent more time on perimeter skills one year than the previous year, that doesn’t mean they abandoned or even significantly diminished post work. (As part of the same argument, just because a team misses free throws, that doesn’t mean the team doesn’t shoot free throws in practice. Sometimes that’s the case (See Memphis, 2008) but it usually doesn’t.)

  22. I’m going by quotes from Cody and Elston in 3 different articles before the season started.

    I don’t remember a word about “driving”, it was all “shooting.”

    And Cody clearly worked on it a ton considering he beat everyone else in the 3 point contest…….and we’ve got some pretty good shooters.

  23. We don’t print every single quote we get, Laffy. If we did, all we would do is print transcripts. We’d like there to be a little more to it than that.
    And obviously, he worked on the driving too. I mean, you’ve actually seen him do it, so I think we’d agree that driving is also a part of the diversification of his game as well regardless of whether or not he shoots 3’s, yes?

  24. Will Cody be the first player in the world to exaggerate an improved facet of his game? Using a skill on the practice court doesn’t always equally transfer to the heat of battle an important game.

    He threw up a couple wild misses earlier in the year(wasn’t there one he jacked up against Butler that went about 2 ft. off to the right?)…He probably doesn’t have the confidence to waste an important possession. I’ll still take his skills and decision making when he pops out to receive an entry pass anywhere around the charity stripe/elbow/top-of-the-key, over any center in the county.

    I’m more confident with Zeller getting a touch around the perimeter(even moving off a screen) than I would be if it were Verdell Jones.

    Personally, I would much rather see him work on 45 degree turnarounds, baby hooks, sweeping hooks…more than parking himself outside for a three attempt.

    I think Watford provides us the needed size against relative size in pulling out defenders..He can open up things for Cody inside far more than keeping a defense honest under the reverse scenario..Watford’s outside stroke has plenty current and historical respect.

    Payne got hot..9 out of 10 more times we’re going to win the battle of versatility(whether that’s Cody’s ability to deliver a nice assist, move in the flow of the offense, get out on the break, or drive the ball from the stripe, or Watford’s ability to catch and deliver deep threes in transition or off a Yogi drive and kick).

    So why get bent out of shape that Cody did a bit more selling than maybe the reality…He brings a plethora of other skills, composure, and general b-ball acumen, than any other center in the country. The “presence” of Cody Zeller is quite the presence. In a relatively quite game, he still exerted the full array of skills when it was crunch time. Trade that to let him share some 3-pt attempts in the box score with Jordy, Yogi, Oladipo, Watford, and Sheehey….? I’m pretty sure we have most the bases covered.

    And who knows..? Maybe Cody will soon pop in a long two from about 18-20 feet and the confidence level turns on the dime…Look how fast it turned for Sheehey…Look how the confidence fell off for Remy after missing a few. Look how Hulls has lost the touch at the free” throw line…So much is mental…The old cliché
    …? “Sometimes you just have to see the ball go through the net.” Once Zeller gets that first deep one to drop, fortunes could turn quickly.

  25. Dustin,

    I think that people capitalize a word to EMPHASIZE or BRING ATTENTION to it, not to add validity to the statement.

    As for “opening the defense up”, isn’t Vic/Yogi driving the lane like maniacs to open up the 3-point line for players like Hulls and Watford enough? Maybe not.

  26. I don’t think Cody oversold the shooting. I’m sure he shot a lot this summer and I’m sure he made more than you’d expect a 7-footer to make. I think it’s more of a question of moving the 5-man in any offense beyond the 3-point arc with the express purpose of getting him a 3. How often in a game is that the right call? Probably more than it has actually been done, but I don’t know.
    Zeller shoots 59.8 percent from the field. The team shoots exactly 50 percent from the field. IU shoots 41.9 percent from beyond the 3-point arc and only one player in the main rotation (Ferrell, who is just now finding his stroke) shoots under 42.9 percent from 3. If you have that many other players stretching the defense, taking and hitting 3’s, does it serve that much of a purpose to take a big man out of the middle? I’ll grant that a few more 3’s by Zeller might help. Every element helps, and it would certainly make him a better Player of the Year candidate. But in the context of what truly helps and hurts the Indiana offense — which isn’t all that broke, I would point out — I’m not sure that not taking advantage of 3’s by Zeller is all that high on the list.
    Also Crean’s quote on Zeller’s perimeter game from his IU auditorium spiel in the preseason follows.

    “Cody Zeller is as fundamentally sound a player as I have ever seen at 18,” Crean said. “Forget coaching. Without a doubt he was the most fundamentally sound I’ve coached. He’s the most fundamentally sound I’ve ever seen or even heard about at that age. Because he was so well coached by his father, by his brothers, by his high school coach Gene Miiller, by his summer coaches. He came in with those fundamentals. Well Cody sometimes, what he’s pretty good at, he’ll stick with. But what he’s pretty good at and what he’ll stick with and what his capabilities are are the difference between him being an NBA All-Star and playing for NBA championships someday and just being a pretty good player at the next level. Cody had to lead the way with, ‘How do we stretch his athleticism? How do we stretch those fundamentals? How do we give him even more confidence?’ My whole thing is, OK, if we’re gonna play against us, we could probably find just about anybody that could look at our team and say, ‘You know what? We better start with Cody Zeller.’ … That’s where it’s gonna start. So we had to get to a point this offseason where no matter what you do in your office at Purdue, at Ohio State at North Carolina, at Butler, at Northwestern. Whatever it is. No matter what you’re doing to prepare for Indiana and prepare for how Cody plays, he could go above and beyond that, that there’s no real plan for what you do in your double-team or how you’re gonna take the ball out of his hands because he’s so secure in his fundamentals and he’s so good at reading and not predetermining what’s gonna happen, that he just takes his game to another level. If your best player and a guy like Cody can lead the way with that fundamental improvement, then nobody else has an excuse.”

    Crean said Zeller has worked to stretch his game. Though last season, the Hoosiers seemed satisfied with keeping him around the rim and in the post despite his considerable ability to handle the ball and shoot from the perimeter, they have looked to expand him this season.

    “We’ve had Cody working in as much ball-screen pick and roll as Jordan (Hulls), as Victor (Oladipo), as Will (Sheehey), as Remy (Abell), as any of them,” Crean said. “We’ve had him working on stretching his athleticism. We want to get him to the point where he’s on one part of the 94 foot and he can get to the other rim in two dribbles. Right now it’s at three. Is he ever going to get there? Probably not, but he needs that mindset.”

  27. No matter what you’re doing to prepare for Indiana and prepare for how Cody plays, he could go above and beyond that, that there’s no real plan for what you do in your double-team or how you’re gonna take the ball out of his hands

    I guess that was sorta my point earlier…With all the accolades and recent gushing over VO’s unstoppable game, is the opponent actually worrying to the same degree regarding how to “take the ball out of Cody’s hands?”

    Do we need to be careful a destruction in chemistry and a regression in confidence our premier center at the cost of building a future NBA star?

    Has anyone noticed how the Bulls have come together without the presence of the centerpiece/star their team?

  28. I’m not ripping you Dustin.

    And it wasn’t only an article by you.

    And like I said before the last time the board got into this, it’s not just “3’s”…..how about a 10 footer?

    How about a hook shot instead of those 3’s?

  29. How did Cody “exaggerate it” when he won the 3 point contest?

    You think he just practiced it the night before?

    Why spend one minute on that shot if you’re never going to take it?

    Why not develop a hook shot?

    And, wasn’t he a great outside shooter in high school?

  30. I sorta wish Zeller would have just spent his final IU summer mastering a Pritchard layup.

    To paraphrase Quinn Buckner..Show them you know what you’re doing out there.

    Personally, I don’t need to watch Cody be the Big and Tall broomstick version of Steve Alford…It may go in once in a Keith Smart blue moon, but the release will still look way too puritanical.

  31. I could get lucky and win a 3-point contest against Jordy on my driveway court.

    Doesn’t mean I could hit the side of a barn when I’m at full speed in a Big 10 game and coughing up a lung.

  32. That was a beautiful dunk by Pritch. Been nice to see that once a game instead of once a year.

    Laffy..CZ outside shot. You’re right, he said that. It appears he’s not confortable with it. Some have agreed with you and some have not. I do think mastering a hook shot would ramp up his game. We seem to beating the dead horse..?

  33. Post #26:

    Personally, I would much rather see him work on 45 degree turnarounds, baby hooks, sweeping hooks…more than parking himself outside for a three attempt.

    Yes, I believe I mentioned hook shots before anyone else brought it up on this thread.

  34. Talk about hyperbole….

    No one wants him to be Alford.

    And he “didn’t get lucky.” Dude practiced it a lot. Did he “get lucky” when he made the shots all the time in high school?

    And $10,000 says you couldn’t beat Jordy to 100 made if he gave you a 50 basket head start.

    And I brought up a hook shot months ago so don’t break your arm acting like you’re the first person to think of it.

  35. I don’t want to see the Cody outside shot.

    I don’t need to see him attempt he can find a parking spot to hide and make one or two a game. Nor do I care to see him drift so far away from the basket an athletic defender will make the smart move to let him have it.

    He’ll never make them will on a cut, set, and square-up situation.. or in transition.

    We have plenty of dynamics in place to exploit the perimeter and open up spacings. If we truly wanted to extend defenses and open things up, we should have sent Jurkin to Track & Field and signed Roth to his final year of eligibility.

    We have enough guys with only hot and cold faucets and ugly form lofting the hero shot.

    I don’t think Cody’s future will involve a Christian Laettner moment. There are different types of coordination and fluidity when it comes to shooting the ball..bending the knees, not spending excessive time bringing the ball from chest to shoulder, etc.

    Cody excels in many areas..The turnaround jump shot..the catch and turn…the fade away? I just don’t believe he possesses those skill sets yet. I think developing a turnaround jumper(45 degree going either direction) would be a great starting point for developing more post versatility. I would rather see more versatility develop in his repertoire of post moves than increasing the sample size. Work on perfecting the post game…The only other thing I would spend a lot of time on would be throwing darts at a Tom Izzo poster slapped to his dorm wall.

    Just my opinion…I don’t think Cody is the next Dirk Nowitzki.

  36. oops..

    He’ll never make them on a cut, set, and square-up situation.. or in transition.

    I shouldn’t say “never”…let’s just say “We’ll never likely see him make them on a cut, set, and square-up…”

  37. I received a standing ovation for my 3-pt shooting at a King’s Island basketball shooting booth. They were pressure-packed as I was heckled by young dweebs thinking I would loft bricks. I walked away with the top prize…drain nine out of eleven while moving around the entire perimeter…Couldn’t even pick my favorite hot zone(usually the deep 45 angle from the right of the key)..

    I could give Hulls fits…He would fold the same he’s been choking on his free throws. The pressure of the famous Harvard kicking his butt would get to him.

    I gave him “Glory, Guts, and Gumption…” How could I lose when I would taunt that into his ear his every attempt?

  38. ..and I know I kick Mr. Establishment’s butt. He talks up a good game, but I highly doubt he brings much of one.

    Now Jeremy Price…? He’s the only guy on here that gives me a bit of concern in a one-on-one contest. He looks as sly as Charlie Chan. He shoot lights out, number one son.

  39. dustin,

    i think you may be missing the point a little bit on the benefits of zeller shooting from the perimeter.

    while our shooters do a good job of stretching the defense, only zeller can pull the opposing team’s center away from the basket. this has many advantages. our guards can attack the basket without the center waiting there for him. think about the likes of noel or plumlee in this situation. a center trying to recover to the basket is more susceptible to fouling. he also leaves zeller uncovered and attacking guard can make drop-off passes to zeller in the lane for easy lay-ups/dunks.

    an effective outside shooting zeller also changes the defense on pick-and-roll/pop plays. center switch leaves zeller free on the perimeter. center no switch gives guard advantage on the drive.

    another benefit is using zeller to make entry passes on high/low plays whenever we have a favorable match-up in terms of size/athleticism. you could clear out the post for dipo, sheehey…anyone you think could score one-on-one inside on their man.

    i could bore you with many other advantages of a center who can shoot outside (besides the ones i mentioned in my earlier post) but you get the idea. right now we get none of that because as zeller holds the ball from 15-20 feet, his defender stays in the lane daring him to shoot.

    zeller wouldn’t have to make many. if he made even 30% pre-conference, that would have been enough to force teams to guard him outside. i say zeller has the form to be a fine outside shooter and when you are blowing teams out by 40, you work on the things that will help you down the line. crean missed that opportunity and it is probably too late for this season. a bit of a disservice to zeller in terms of developing him for the next level, too.

    to your point, is zeller shooting an open 15-18 footer the best shot available? in the grand scheme of things…yes.

  40. Am I Mr Establishment? Just want to make sure I know if I’m being challenged or not.

    If so, I’m not sure I’ve ever bragged much on here about my own personal abilities. I’m not much of a trash talker… However, I’m not scared of any scenario you want to put me in Harvard.

    I’m sure you can shoot it a bit. I know a lot of very good shooters. Most of em don’t talk about it much.

  41. Most of em.

    Cody already flashes out to the free throw area.. We’re not in the dark. We don’t need the 6th grade coaching lesson from the resident sexist to know Cody’s strengths and weaknesses.

    More touches…More repertoire of moves in the post game. Less creating the mindset that Oladipo is the irreplaceable element on the team.

    Yogi is the difference-maker. Whatever Zeller gets from keeping a defender honest from hitting one or two 3-pointers in a game when he’s 20 feet from the basket is minimal plus or minus with the true emergence of a top Big 10 point guard.

  42. Good post CoachV, but it does bring me back to my initial question. Again, when it comes to the shooting I was mostly just asking. The point I made definitively is about driving the lane.
    I’d argue that the high pick and roll has served Indiana well mostly, especially with Oladipo and Ferrell being able to beat their man to the rim. They’ve obviously done more rolling with Zeller than popping, so the fact that there isn’t a pick-and-pop element is somewhat of an issue, but I haven’t noticed a scenario – which doesn’t mean it hasn’t happened, I just haven’t noticed — when it became more difficult for Indiana to run an offensive play, particularly on a high ball screen, because the center refused to follow Zeller out of the paint because he didn’t believe Zeller could make a jump shot.
    I guess my point is, it could be a nice addition, but I don’t know if the fact that Zeller isn’t taking jumpers is a major problem for this team.

  43. I guess my point is, it could be a nice addition, but I don’t know if the fact that Zeller isn’t taking jumpers is a major problem for this team.

    To expound upon that theory…The fact he isn’t moseying into the easy trap of taking every outside open jumper(which in itself sounds like a much less aggressive Zeller)is a major PLUS for the team.

    Wasn’t the knock on Cody his “softness” inside? So moving to the perimeter is the answer?

    And wasn’t the knock on Watford that he was “lazy” and unwilling to bang down low and thus relying too heavily on pulling his game to the outside too frequently?

    So let’s turn an adept and versatile
    outside big in Watford into a substandard guy in the boxes and turn a great threat in the boxes into a substandard perimeter big that thinks he’s more valuable showing off to the fans how he can stand at 25 feet and beat Jordy at a game of horse than banging with Andrew Stevens & company…?

    Sounds like a great plan to me. Zeller does a lot of great things outside the paint and running the floor that doesn’t involve scoring. And Watford does more on the inside(positioning, boards, assists, and keeping balls alive)that doesn’t necessarily involve muscling points at the rim. They’re both very versatile inside/outside guys that shouldn’t merely be judged by where most the points in their personal scoring column are manufactured. Cody adds to Watford’s outside scoring…Watford contributes to keeping excessive cheating down low against Zeller.

    Yogi and Oladipo add havoc and even more unpredictability an already extremely versatile pair of athletes in our front court.

  44. Harvard, all you have to do is read post #20 and you’ll see what you just said has nothing to do with my point.

    I’m advocating proper game-planning, not a role reversal.

  45. Its interesting to watch how Laffy the Clown antagonizes the IU faithful. I’ve been reading with great interest since the beginning of the season, without posting.
    Now, after a win against MSU and a #3 ranking, he’s still a sorry complainer.
    Are we sure he’s not a Kensucky inbred? I respect Purdue enough not to associate Laffy with the Boilers.
    Go Hoosiers! Your loyal fans support you!

  46. I’m still thinking the game plan worked. Nix had to play more minutes to deal with CZ. Would have played even more if he had not had foul trouble. His playing more had to be considered in the game plan. Result, each center neutralized the other. Advantage IU. Play zone had to be part of the plan. Appling gets in foul trouble and only scores a couple of points. Advantage IU. They commit more fouls than IU. IU shoots more FT’s. Those things had to be part of Crean’s plan. It worked.

  47. self-right·eous:
    confident of one’s own righteousness, especially when smugly moralistic and intolerant of the opinions and behavior of others.

    Sound like anyone???

    From now on when everyone here reads his post, make sure you look for the “I” in every comment. ie: I told you…I was right…I win…I’m right all the time

  48. Bart295, you still read his posts??

    HC, yeah, I’m kind of amused when folks break down all of CTC’s coaching failures the day after a huge win. I’d say his plan seems to have worked.

  49. Hitch–

    I gave the teams props after the MSU win, crybaby.


    That’s cute how you cried about the “I win” thing since I did it to point out the hypocrisy of you guys.

    If you call me names………..that’s perfectly ok.

    If I call you names back, you beat your chest with, “Only losers name-call and it proves you lost the debate.”

    So, stop crying I throw your own rules back in your face when you keep calling me names.


    So, just because we win people should never look at how we can be better?


    You must push brooms for a living because not only in sports, but also business, the true successful people are ALWAYS looking at how to do a better job.

  50. Well, I’m only breaking down the way we use Cody. It was limited. I’d say if the centers neutralize each other that = advantage MSU, since Cody puts up better numbers than Nix on average. I’d also say they didn’t neutralize each other…

    4-8 FG, 8 pts, 5 reb, 6 assists, 31 minutes
    2-7 FG, 9 pts, 7 reb, 1 assist, 33 minutes

    The top line is far more efficient basketball that directly led to 17 more points than the bottom line. The top line belonged to Nix.

    Listen, it’s ok… Nix got the better of Cody for 1 game. IU got the better of MSU, so it really doesn’t sting that much. All I’m saying is that Cody was used in a way that advantaged Nix. I hope we make adjustments and are more creative with how we get Cody touches going forward.

    If you think that part of Crean’s gameplan was to have Nix play more minutes while still getting him in foul trouble then I have no idea how to respond. It’s so counterintuitive that there is no response. Also if your argument was that they were gameplanning to get Nix in foul trouble 70-90 ft from the basket, well there’s no response for that either. It literally makes no sense.

    Overall did IU’s gameplan work? Yes. Every part except the part where Cody bangs with Nix in the post on both ends. That did not work. Nix was efficient and defended the post without fouling. He caused Cody to be as inefficient as he’s ever been in a big game.

  51. Wow, just wow. Chuck the successful plan and here is the new game plan, CZ needs to fire shots 17′ from the basket that he is not comfortable doing. That will make Spartans dysfunctional in Breslin.

  52. OK so it’s official…Laffy can’t read. I have only posted for 1 week and have never called anyone a name, I have posted a few definitions. Like self righteous!

    Laffy must be posting while looking in a mirror!

    I don’t call people “crybaby” or say sexist remarks “plays like a girl”

    “Only losers name-call and it proves you lost the debate.” Don’t use quotes that I never said!

    Say hi to Debbie when you get home!

  53. You’ve been attacking me the entire time you’ve been here so stop the victim/innocent act.

    Tell your boyfriend to give you a massage when you get home.

    Hey, I don’t “call names” either…..I just use “definitions.


    You guys need to quit your %$^#ing crying about MY “needing to be civil when all you do is rip me 24/7.

    I have a different opinion than you do.

    Get over it.

  54. That’s not what I said Clarion.

    The way they used Zeller against MSU did not work. It was a function of where he was catching the ball. He cannot win a banging battle with Nix… I’m pretty sure Nix wins that battle against anyone in the country.

    Was the nail in the coffin at the end of the game a 17 footer? Not it was a more creative way of getting Cody the ball… He does occasionally catch the ball at the top of the key, but this time they set a ball screen for him, which was a different look. Read post #6 again. I’m not advocating he become a perimeter player. I’m simply saying that all the touches that Cody got where he looked to score were post touches, with the exception of the 2 plays I noted in post #5.

    Both the eye test and the stats clearly show that Cody did not have an effective offensive performance. The score board shouldn’t cover that up for you. I’m sorry that I point these things out, but I don’t know a single coach who just glosses over things because they win a game. As a long time player and coach there is simply no other way I can look at the game.

  55. Clarion,

    Give me one piece of evidence that shows that the way we used Cody in the offense against MSU worked.

    You sarcastically say, “chuck the successful plan…”

    But the Zeller part of the game plan did NOT work. It was NOT successful. As an individual offensive performer he was terribly inefficient. 2-7 FG for 9 pts, 1 assist, and 2 turnovers – those numbers are all worse than his season averages, in a couple cases they are far worse.

  56. This is what I mean Dustin. This place can never have a normal conversation, cause of Laffy. Though your just too lazy to ban him. I gaurantee if you banned him, this place would clean up fast, and even attract new people to post. Nobody likes to be put down, and Laffy does just that.

    I will never understand your approach. Though I should, as corporate America is always afraid of pulling the trigger cause of lawsuits, etc. Nobody wants Laffy here Dustin. Just causes problems. He is right, and everyone else is just a dumbass. It’s getting old really really quick. Many people have tuned out, and care less about what he posts, cause its just full of negativity, and anger anyway.

    Stop being lazy, and do something. It’s a shame cause this place is awesome. It’s a shame though that one jackass is bringing it, and it’s people down constantly. No other p.ace would accept his behavior. Ever since the HH fallout, he is out to get everyone. He goes “ape” if you try and cortique him. Nobody wants him here anyway. Do what you want with this post. Just WAKE UP!

  57. Geoff, you have thrown so much on the wall I am not sure you know what you advocate. In the last couple of days you have stated you want Crean to develop a perimeter game for CZ. Now you say you do not. 75-70 is proof whether you authorize it or not. Zeller and Nix neutralized 1 an other and our other 6 guys carried the game to success. In other words Cody did not need a big game for IU to win. Which way are you going to twist it now? I am very curious.

  58. That is a load of nonsense BH.

    I put up my opinion and then I am FLOODED with personal attacks.

    So quit blaming it all on me.

    And Geoff and I get along fine because he doesn’t do the insults like everyone else does…..so quit crying “nobody.”

    And like I said before, when I complained about HH….which most people blasted last summer, I was just told “ignore him.”

    So, follow your own advice.

    Tell your buddies to stop the insults to me and I’ll stop them back.

    Why don;t YOU “quit being lazy” and just skip over my posts?

  59. Your right. That is my biggest failure Laffy. I should, and will ignore your posts, just like the majority on this board is already doing. I’m no trend setter, but just look around. Nobody respects you anymore. Goodbye, and look forward to blowing by your negative posts. To everyone else, look forward to REAL conversations. Bye Laffy!

  60. Izzo’s gameplan was a thing of beauty…His team was in a distance race and did exactly what is necessary to win on the road..keep close until the final minutes…neutralize the opponent’s dominant player to the best of your ability… give your team a chance to win. It appeared to have worked for 37 minutes. A couple big shots..a couple big rebounds…a couple big defensive plays and you steal one on the road.

    Funny thing happened on the way to the park…The big shot…the big rebound…the big defensive play(the taking of a charge) were stolen from Izzo’s plan. It was one Hoosier that made those three plays in the crucial moments a game still teetering on the plans of coaching gods and coaching clods.

    Just like Izzo drew it up….An outplayed Zeller will decide to not allow the last three minutes be the final confirming chapter of supreme chalkboards in a Sparty locker room.

    Tom Crean’s plan worked. Tom Crean’s plan was to find a center from Indiana that is unlike any other to play in the country for decades…His plan was to find a winner. His plan was to find a unique young man that understood the game. His plan was to find a player that makes sucko plan look like pretty smart plans. His plan was to find a calm and collected young man of character that never bleeds selfishness or defeatism. Crean’s superior plan was to ride on the Hoosier train barreling down the tracks with the engine founded in the character and determination of Cody and the Movement’s plan…For all the flawless plans in a select 40 minutes that may win you one game, it lives at the mercy the drive and missions an often bigger picture, a collective plan, a stronger heart bound to purpose and toughness to carry out goals never found in Geoff’s library of X’s and O’s. It was the same plan that watched Watford’s shot rip the nets against UK last December. It’s the same plan that will watch Cody hoist the championship trophy high above his head and forever be remembered in the hearts all Hoosier fans. It’s destiny’s plan. And for all your stupendous planning last Sunday, Mr. Izzo, your team couldn’t stop Cody from taking two lousy minutes that game and owning you. It looked a lot like your plans in .833 your appearances at Final Fours. Taste it and watch it slip away..Get everyone ready to pop the champagne and then watch your team appear limp and plain.

    You misjudged Cody Zeller with your cute 40 minute plan. It showed.

  61. Again with the “nobody” crap.

    I’ve had compliments from more than one person so…..you’re a liar.

    And, unlike most of you, I don’t base my self-worth on anonymous board people “respecting” me or not.

    And the LAST people I “want respect from” is a bunch of Hysterical Hypocrites.

    The day people like that “respect me” is the day I shoot myself.

    Don’t come on here and BLAST me with personal insults after I give my opinion and then go running to mommy (Dustin) after I rip you back and cry, “Mommy (Dustin), he called me a name!! He’s mean!!! Kick him off here!!!”

    Don’t dish it out if you can’t take it.

    Again………Geoff and I have no problems even though we disagree a lot.


    He doesn’t throw personal insults at me like the rest of you do (and then WHINE how “I” am the bad one for giving it right back).

    Talk about “being a 5 year old.”


    Bullies HATE it when you give them a taste of their own medicine.

  62. Clarion. Totally false. I have been advocating one thing all along – diversifying Cody’s touches based on the match-up. Everyone else turned it into other things, which I why I wrote post #49.

    You keep saying that the 2 centers neutralized each other like that is fact. It is NOT.

    One player – NIx – was FAR more effective than he normally is. One player – Zeller – was far LESS effective than he normally is. That is not neutralization.

    Nix neutralized Cody, because Cody got the majority of his scoring opportunities in the paint, where Nix has a decided advantage in strength. Zeller scored 7 points less than his season average because he could not get off quality shots.

    Cody did not come close to neutralizing Nix. Nix basically scored his average, but he was easily backing down Cody and scoring over him, so IU had to adjust and constantly send double teams… Then Nix made high quality passes out of the post and had 6 assists (five 3’s and a 2 pointer = 17 more points).

    Nix was directly responsible for 25 points. Cody was directly responsible for 11.

    They did not neutralize each other.

  63. That’s a difficult one to visualize…Hmmm?

    The day Geoff rolls off the tongue a careless insult in Laffy’s direction…?

    (Please note: All is not lost as it can plainly be seen from the clip that Laffy is still clutching on to Geoff’s humble basketball opinions)

  64. So Nix is solely responsible for the points the result of his assists? It’s not possible that some poor defense, hot shooting, or a tripping of a Northwestern player cutting across the paint, could help those passes turn directly into points?

    This is how the minds of engineers, statisticians, and those guys that play with Kenpom and RPI buckets like it was their surefire Lincoln log set of causation)….Of course!! Every home ever built must be made of green, red, and blue logs.

    “Mommy!! I ran out of those green slat thingamajigs for my rooftop to the second loghouse… Huh? What? I can use that small spiral binder? I can open it up and put it on top my log house #2 for a rooftop not from barrel of parts? That’s just wrong.”

  65. Geoff, these guys sure do love to stick words in our mouths and blast us for “saying it.”

    Just like the “Yeah, we need to turn Cody into Alford” when I never even hinted that.

  66. He won a shooting contest, ehv, ehn,ehv, ehvwyone…He, he, he… beat all the Hoosiers at Monroe County Fair wast summer. He wah given a big bloo stuffed animal and he said he should start shooting more twiples in games. He said he even better than Jordy. He beat his chest weeeeal hard for a couple minutes and then, and then, and then he skipped like a boy in a candy store over to Tom Crean..Tommy was wunning the sledgehammer game….Then, then, then, Cody..Cody, he rang the bell twice..TWO TIMES! TWO TIMES! Nobody dat a Hoosier ever wing da bell TWO TIMES!! And then, and then, and then, and then Tommy said he tink Cody would beat up every ‘big’ in the country cause he ben in the weight woom and got realllllllll strong…Then, then, then Tommy handed him a big inflated sledgehammer.

  67. Geoff, As always I am absorbing what you say but I ain’t buying in on this. I saw it differently. CZ did not need a ball busting day for the win, Nix did but did not get it. When playing MSU the dominant thing is rebounding, you lose that #’s column by more than 3-4 you probably lose. Damn I hope Crean does not take the bait from Izzo and have CZ dragging Nix out to the perimeter on 2/19. It is not needed to meet them.

  68. Damn I hope Crean does not take the bait from Izzo and have CZ dragging Nix out to the perimeter on 2/19. It is not needed to meet them.

    Yeah…I also recall Izzo stating Watford would serve us much better playing like Shaq. Play with his back to the basket and stick his butt into Payne…He thought it was a real disservice to settle for Christian’s ability to run the floor, spot up in transition like no other forward in college with his size…utilize his ball skills to slash across the paint and hit 8 ft. jumpers and jump hooks…a real disservice. Christian should run right for the boxes and Cody should get himself lost in the corner for guaranteed three balls from corner pocket.

    Izzo wants best for his good buddy Tom Crean. Learn from the teacher. We have all been coaches and teachers long enough to know that a teacher never learns anything from the pupil.

  69. Clarion – for the sake of debate… How would diversifying where Cody gets his touches on the offensive end change our rebounding?

    1) I’m not suggesting that Cody ONLY get perimeter touches

    2) Cody only got 1 offensive rebound as it was, and as a team we had a season-low 8.

    Also, I understand we didn’t need a ball busting day from Cody to win that particular game against MSU, but how many times against really good teams do you think we can have that inefficient a version of Zeller and still win?

    Basically we decided to bang our head against a brick wall, and since we didn’t end up with a concussion you think it’s fine to do it again next time.

    I propose we go around the wall occasionally next time and see if it works any better.

  70. Butt out Harvard – nothing you are saying has anything to do with what I’m talking about. It’s all hyperbole and stupidity.

  71. In this scene, Laffy forever gives up the priceless bag of Harvard’s condensed and deposited knowledge in exchange for the once in a lifetime chance to caress the weighted headiness of Geoff’s golden and pure hoops’ thoughts cast in his own image.

    More at eleven…..

  72. Has HH ever put up a post WITHOUT hyperbole and stupidity?

    And he sure is jealous of you for your basketball knowledge.


  73. Oh….and there’s another reason why I don’t take the “Laffy ruins this place with negativity” bedwetters seriously.

    That’s about the 50th time HH has put up a post with, “Laffy is infatuated with Geoff because he has limited basketball knowledge” and not ONE word from the peanut gallery with,

    “HH, knock your crap off. Geoff obviously knows something about basketball so there is no need for you to stalk Laffy all over the board whining your head off because Laffy agrees with him. Get over it and quit dragging this place down with that nonsense. You promised you were going to ignore the guy so be a man and honor your word instead of trying to start another pizzing contest.”

    So…….get bent.

  74. Geoff-

    I respect your basketball opinions. I think you understand that. But this discussion is going too far. In your heart of hearts do you honestly believe we missed a prized opportunity by not allowing Cody to experiment from the outside during our quote, unquote “cupcake” games?

    If you believe our coach blew a wonderful opportunity(as alluded to by coachv and reinforced by Dustin’s reaffirmation a “good post”) to turn Cody into Dirk Nowitzki with his magic wand, I’ll happily defer to your expertise. Sorry, but I’m smirking with all the smirk a Northwestern postgame press conference right now. What hogwash. Cody’s athleticism is off the charts, but he’s not a fluid shooter that can move and set. Can that be developed over four years of college ball..Highly possible. Does he have that skill set now. No f%#%ing way.

    If you honestly believe all the talk about a “soft” Cody would have been quelled by allowing him to chuck up more triples with the all the same likelihood of ripping nets as a Remy Abell hot/cold faucet from range bombs, I will happily concede to THE knowledge.

    I see these discussions as a constant. It’s not a constant wanting of something better..It’s a constant redesigning of the same old attempts the same old portrait. The finished painting is always the same. Talk of deficiencies. Talk of missed opportunities. Talk of everything done wrong(unless it’s the singing of an Oladipo heading for the NBA song).

    And maybe I’m wrong, but I’ve watched Cody get plenty of “touches” outside the paint. Could he loft a couple at the rim? Sure he can. Does it result in keeping anyone honest in the way they defend him? Possibly. But where is the honesty for the dozens of things the kid adds that has nothing to do with points in the scoring column?

    We’re dumbing him down to perimeter “touches” and a contest he won before the season by lofting some bombs in front of the fans that meant absolutely nothing. Do you think his triples were defended in 3-A high school ball with anything the level a 6-9″ Big 10 athlete cheating 4 feet from his ankles?

    It doesn’t matter the brushes or the colors…The painting is always the same. The hints are nonstop. Tom Crean is rarely the coach the other guy on the other bench. Tom Crean is not even the coach you could be. We get it. It’s total BS. These guys are not machines. They not round pegs for round circles. Payne will likely not hit 4 triples in one game the rest his college days. If he doesn’t arrive in Bloomington wearing Hulls goggles, we likely blow MSU out of Assembly. Nobody would be advocating turning Cody into Payne. After the fact that anomaly we measure Cody as deficient because he didn’t have a big scoring night. All he did was own the last two minutes of the game and secure the outcome a victory in our favor. Let’s dumb it all down to touches and ignore the fact they could not stop Mr. Zeller when they needed to stop him most. He didn’t shrink in the moment. He wasn’t concerned with touches and scoring when teammates were exploiting their defenders by his mere presence. But when he needed to make the plays, he made them. Give the damn kid some credit instead of playing the “Crean is an inferior coach that doens’t know how to gameplan/make adjustment” distraction game again, and again, and again.

    And don’t tell me to “butt out.” Chamberlain had personality. Shaq has the personality a big yellow bus.

  75. I want CZ close to the basket even if he only gets 1 O/R a game. He’ll get 0 from 15 feet. He shoots 60% from the field because he stays in a smaller opportunity zone than you are suggesting. I do not understand how moving him farther out and he earns a completion rate of 50% from there is an advantage. If it ain’t broke I do not attempt to fix it. I would like what has been expressed on this blog before, Cody with the addition of a hook shot would be the diversity in his O game I would welcome and applaud. What say you, is that enough tinkering? By the way I relish going through the wall.

  76. I’ll add 1 other thing. I know the NBA is giddy over the big men shooting from out side. I am not and it is a measureable part of why I do not watch their product.

  77. By the way I relish going through the wall.

    Exactly. And a few weeks ago, most posters were relishing the thought of Cody doing the same.

    One of the best moving, fast-breaking ball handling, passing, craftiest giant gazelles in the game and we want to temper his plethora of ball and off-the-ball skills by making him drift into the Indiana Jones “Three Fingers to the Sheehey Temple” temple of future Hoosier doom…? Yippee. Send a text message to Matt Roth.

    Cody owned the Spartans in the final two minutes. It wasn’t a desperation pass from Indiana “Turnover” Jones to “Lazy” Watford…It was brains over brawn. It was driving to the glass and using the left hand with the skill a point guard..It was great positioning for a key rebound. It was bailing out one of our defenders getting abused by an MSU Spartan heading to the rim with a potential game-winning drive to the hoop, anticipating the drive, and moving into position to take the charge.

    Cody owned the final minutes. The only place there should be touches is upon our “soft” and humble hearts the recognition his unbelievable b-ball intelligence and perseverance a true winner that plays every minute like it’s the last.

  78. Actually Cody shoots 28% when used that way against Nix.

    Apparently you’ve projected different arguments than the ones I’m actually making into this conversation. You’ve put words in my mouth and then debated your made up points instead of what I’ve actually said. Maybe you got confused by what other people have said over the course of this thread.

    I never advocated turning Cody into Dirk.

    I clearly stated that against most teams (in important games at least) Cody should be almost exclusively in the low post, for example Minnesota. He has an advantage in the low post against most teams. (see post #20)

    However, he does not have an advantage in the low post against Nix. He does have a quickness advantage. So yeah, instead of just banging up against a brick wall, they should come up with more creative ways of attacking Nix.

    To answer your question, “Did Crean miss an opportunity by not allowing Cody to experiment from the outside against cupcakes?” Yes, that would be the time to see what Cody is capable of and build his confidence. That doesn’t mean shooting 3’s… It means diversifying the way he attacks. Occasional 3’s, occasional 15 footers, occasional drives to the basket… Each and every game early on. Catch in the hig post, catch in the midpost, catch on the perimeter, and then catching it in the low post most of the time. Right now there is almost zero diversity in the way Cody attacks in the half court. He’s taken 2 threes all year. I can count on one hand the number of mid-range jump shots he’s attempted. I can count on the other hand the number of perimeter dribble drives he’s made this season. I can’t remember a single time that he flashed to the FT area, faced up and made an entry pass to Watford, Sheehey, or Dipo ducking into the spot he just opened up…

    There just isn’t any diversity in the way we give Cody attacking opportunities in the half court. 95% of the time it is dump-it-into-the-low-post-and-see-what-happens-no-matter-who-is-guarding-him. It works against most teams, but not against everyone… Not against Nix…

  79. And let’s not forget that Crean did not have Hanner Perea available for the first nine games(to fulfill roles in the post)while Cody was losing out on a Jerry West experiment.

    Many the final scores were lopsided, but I seem to remember plenty of contests where the opponent was lurking within striking distance. Cody had very little help in those games..Cody was also quite ill for a stretch of games. There was no opportunity lost from Crean’s mistakes. Most opportunity has been lost the result of an unfair “Establishment” suspension and a Derek Elston injury. If we had Elston’s 3-point accuracy available to pull out opponent’s bigs, we would be discussing Cody’s wonderful new hook shot showing real improvement.

    Every season is a product of the cards dealt in the unfolding and ever-changing curve balls thrown to disrupt the plans and ‘game plans.’ Crean has not had a ton of room for experimentation and turning guys loose to play outside their strengths. Let the cake bake in the oven a bit more. We still may see Hanner make a difference. We still may see Cody drain the occasional deep jumper when Hanner is available to sky and finish it bounding like a pinball off the glass. Missed opportunities?

    Deficiencies in game plans? We’ve barely scratched the surface. Yogi is just getting warmed up. We’re going to be a nightmare match-up in March.

  80. By and large this one’s over the moon I understand, but I’m coming around on Geoff’s point at least to the point that I’m agnostic on it. (The more passionate part of my argument was in disputing the idea that driving from the perimeter was never mentioned in the preseason discussion of Zeller’s game) Obviously, you don’t want Zeller stationed outside. No one is suggesting that. He’s not going to be Dirk Nowitzky and nobody’s thinking that’s the right idea either. No one’s suggesting he become Kevin Pittsnogle. But if he hit a pick-and-pop 3 once a game or even once every other game it might add an element. Of course, Harvard might also be right in the sense that he hit all these 3’s in practice, came out and missed a couple badly in games and felt a little less confident in the idea. On a whole, Indiana’s offense is working just fine, so I don’t think it’s a necessity that Zeller shoot more jumpers, and I don’t think a suggestion that he should is an insinuation that Indiana’s offense is in anyway “broken” or that Crean’s game-planning is “wrong.” They’re still leading the Big Ten in scoring and they have to be pretty high up there nationally, and they’re 18-2, so they aren’t majorly screwing anything up without that element, but it’s reasonable to suggest that it would be useful every once in a while.

  81. I would like to conclude my presence on this thread with my final thoughts regarding Calipari’s next NBA-bound recruiting class.

  82. It did work against Nix. As you stated he shot 28% but you did not mention IU won. Something worked and it was Crean’s game plan. I can’t imagine he was not pleased with holding MSU to 70.

  83. Harvard… Thank you for writing post #87.

    Cody did take over the last 2 minutes – he made 2 defensive plays and one offensive play.

    Was the offensive play another pounding into the brick wall in the low post? Nope! It was a catch at the top of the key followed by a ball screen springing Cody to freedom down the left side of the lane. A diverse and creative set! Exactly what I’ve been talking about. We need more of that.

    You just spent a a paragraph painting a beautiful picture of Zeller’s agility and skill for a guy his size… And then came to the conclusion somehow that all those traits should be forgotten and we should continue to only use him as a low post banger in the half court.

    You are so caught up in trying to argue with me for the sake of arguing with me that you can’t even see you making my points for me.

  84. By the way you need to re-read my posts, I never mentioned DN. But maybe that is just some diversity for the conversation.

  85. I’ve never said he should be a “pounder” inside. I love his versatility. What I said is that I don’t believe he has the skill set to fluidly move, turn, and take the true preparation a skilled outside shooter. If he’s left alone where he can have the opportunity a standstill look? Well, he’s bricked some of those and, as Dustin reaffirmed, the confidence in the easiest of a 3-point look(one that requires very little moving, setting, turning, stopping) may be waning a bit.

    Look back at my posts. I have no problem with Cody using his skills to flash outside on occasion. He makes up ground in a hurry and I can only imagine the breakaway dunks we’d be seeing if he could also cheat from the boxes on the defensive end. As Perea develops, it could get crazy.

    Sorry I broke my promise again(about being finished on this thread).

    Let’s face it, Geoff. Just because I won at a carnival style 3-point shooting game at Busch Gardens doesn’t make me a guy that could run the floor and replicate it in the college game. Have we even talked of fatigue playing a role in 3-pt. accuracy? I could go on, and on, and on. I played the game a considerable amount. A three point shot is as much an art as anything else. There’s a lot of lower body involved. You start to lose your legs and things go astray. You lose your confidence and the result may be using your versatility to drive with the off hand and make a big play in a different fashion.

    But saying we lost opportunities? I don’t think so. I don’t think Cody’s outside skill set is much beyond a standstill skill(at this point his development).

  86. If Vic was a high school kid with graduation this yr or next yr instead of 3 yrs ago, think he would be a target recruit for IU ???

  87. Yes. Oladipo was Crean going with his vision and heart. Zeller was Crean following up with his brain.

    We’ve yet to see the full Crean product. He has fans he needs to answer. Many not very educated. Many very risk averse when cheering a program in a 26 year drought since last banner.

  88. What does holding MSU to 70 have to do with how we used Cody in the half court?

    It’s so ridiculous Clarion!

    That’s like saying Greg Maddux had a great outing because the Cubs won 14-12… He just kept throwing fast balls for whatever reason and didn’t mix in his change-up or curve. And since Sosa went 5-6 with 2 dingers and 8 RBI then the pitching coach should be applauded for the game plan.

    I did mention that IU won. See posts #5, 58, and 63.

    Winning doesn’t mean that everything worked though. Lots of what IU did worked. Especially defensively. Dipo worked. Yogi worked.

    What did not work was Cody banging into Nix repetitively in the low block.

    If a running back keeps trying to run up the middle and gets jammed up very time do you keep just ramming it up the middle every time you hand the ball to him? Or do you maybe get him outside the tackles occasionally or throw it to him in the flat from time to time? Maybe set up a screen…

    Then if you win the football game 24-21 because the your passing game was adequate and your defense came up with 3 turnovers do you say that the running attack was really well game-planned because you won, who cares if it was 17 carries for your all-pro back for a toal of 34 yards… The running gameplan was exactly what we should do next time because we won the game.

    That’s ridiculous. Nim sorry.

  89. The DN thing was aimed at Harvard. I know I told him to butt out, but I got duped into responding to him.

    And Harvard, you are the one who keeps talking about 3 point shots… You just keep bringing it up like that’s my point.

    I have clearly stated my point. It isn’t about 3 point shooting. If you don’t know what it is by now then I guess you’ll never know.

  90. Talk about no repertoire of moves. That condescension thing is sure a weak go-to.

    You’re first post:

    I guess my point is that Cody has the skill to do what Payne did yesterday. Izzo puts Payne in position to do those things and the trust to allow him to be successful.

    Not true..They have totally different skill sets. Payne is far more fluid in the halfcourt. Far more advanced at taking his game outside. Payne’s ability to drain numerous triples made the gameplan look brilliant. I don’t see Izzo taking the skill set of Cody Zeller and using it the same way Izzo rolled the dice with Payne.

    Maybe I’m wrong, but it seems Izzo used Payne in a fashion to counter what Indiana can accomplish with Watford.

    I would argue Payne is far more advanced for an NBA-style game than Cody. It’s not that Cody won’t have success in the NBA…I just don’t see him making a huge impact at his current level. I’m not even sure if he could ever evolve into a Joakim Noah.

  91. Dustin,

    This is the one time I will devote a post to the Cody 3-pointer discussion. It has very little to do with my original point, but I want to address your last post…

    We all know that Cody has the ability to shoot 3’s.

    We all know that there is a difference between shooting them in practice and shooting them in a game.

    A coach can go about encouraging a player to do things outside of his comfort zone in different ways…

    He can say, “hey if you’re open and you’re feeling good I want you to take that shot.”

    He could say, “we need you to do more of that if we’re going to be successful.”

    He could say, “if you don’t take that shot I’m going to pull you.”

    Or he could say, “I want you to make a point of taking at least 1 or 2 of those shots every game.”

    The last way, in my opinion is the best. It’s a nuanced difference, but gives the player the freedom to find those opportunities when they best work, and find ways to get into position to make it happen. It gives him the freedom to fail without consequence. It doesn’t put pressure on him to do it always or never, just that it will now be part of his repertoire.

    I say this about any weakness or something outside of someone’s comfort zone.

    It makes no difference if you miss every one of them – hook shot, elbow jumper, 12 foot bank shot, or 3 pointer… Because you are going to go right back out there and do it again next game.

    Then when our non-conference season is over and the games really start to count we’ll assess what makes sense to continue and what doesn’t.

    If Cody attempts 12 shots a game during the non-conference, I would want him taking 5 of those shots from somewhere other than the low post… And that could include driving lay-ups.

    Right now he takes about 12 shots a game (9 official attempts + shots he gets fouled on and goes to the FT line), but they are almost always from a catch in the low post and it’s been that way all year.

    Cody’s comfort zone is the post, and he will get plenty of those reps with this philosophy in the non-conference (on average about 7 low post shots per game), and that will be fine to prepare him for B1G play, but he’ll also have to find other ways to be effective and give him an opportunity to grow. In the end it may make our team harder to defend or maybe it doesn’t work out and we go back to featuring Cody only in the low post… But one thing I’m sure of, we would not have lost to ND State or Ball State with Cody exploring his own burgeoning versatility.

  92. I start going to condescension when you start putting words in my mouth and using ridiculous, off-topc hyperbole instead of debating the actual point I was making.

    It’s a terrible go-to move, but it’s the move I got.

  93. And he could tell Tijan Jobe to watch more Dr. J film.

    If that scoop behind the backboard, dangle in mid-air, contortionist, Baryshnikov with a b-ball, move is available a couple times a game, Dr. Jobe, don’t be afraid to give it a whirl.

    Crean understands his talent. I have the utmost confidence he allows them the proper freedom to explore. Cody bricked some early attempts. He doesn’t feel the confidence. The worst thing a coach could do is bring it unnecessarily into microscopic examination.

    I would us an assistant or a teammate to explore the psychological roadblocks. Nothing like the confidence a peer, a pat on the back from a teammate, to not help overcome a hesitancy the exploration of new skills. This shouldn’t all be on Crean.

    You need a healthy environment and the right chemistry. Glad to see Sheehey stop the three fingers to the temple thing. He had a nice game against MSU. I like the restraint and the decision to stop publicly gloating. He acted like it wasn’t his first rodeo..Kudos to Crean for exploring different possibilities with Will to how a champion carries himself.

  94. oops.

    I would [use] an assistant, or a teammate, to explore the psychological roadblocks. Nothing like the confidence a peer, a pat on the back from a teammate, to help overcome a hesitancy the exploration of new skills.

    It’s all good, Geoff. Still love ya, man. Glad you’re here. Glad you offer Laffy some solace. Everyone needs someone that believes.

  95. Not for me to say when something is overused, but you guys need a thesaurus…You’ve beaten “hyperbole” to death.

    Maybe try uber bloatation device.

  96. OK Geoff you win it anyway you want. If this diverse addition to the O works I’ll offer more diversity and give Hulls 8 or 9 games to jump center. He should be proficient in 6-7 games and he can tip the ball to CZ standing 43′ from the basket, swish, and we’ll start out 3-0 every game. I am sure you recognize that would be ridiculous. The other one is just your opinion, which I do not share and is ridiculous to me. Oh by the way IU did change up since the 2 centers neutralized each other, the other 6 players took over.

  97. HC, you ever so slightly beat me to it, in a fashion. It’s not moving Cody to the arc that we need, it’s more post play from Jordy.

    Just think how it would open up the offense with Jordy’s defender suddenly having to provide the backside help instead of their center.

    Yeah, Jordy playing the post, that would fix everything.

    How come Fred Glass doesn’t look here when he needs a coach?

  98. You mean, since Nix neutralized Zeller… The other 6 players stepped up.

    Still waiting for a single piece of evidence to back up your statement that Cody neutralized Nix.

    Yes, your scenario was ridiculous. I’m trying to figure out what is ridiculous about giving Cody the ball in places other than the low post with the purpose of him attacking. It certainly wasn’t ridiculous with a minute to go when Cody scored the lefty lay-up. Everyone is praising him for stepping up and being clutch. Now your saying it’s ridiculous… Which camp are you in?

    See post #20 again if you need a reference point. In games that matter against most teams Cody can have success in the low post. Against a few teams it takes some diversity. MSU is one of those teams.

    Do you think that NFL teams attack the Jets the way they attack other teams on defense? Do QB’s just force the ball to their best WR even though Revis is all over him? Nope…

    Tiger was dominating the golf world, but still changed his swing twice, because he knew there was a better way… He wasn’t content with just winning.

    If Wakefield’s Knucleball wasn’t knuckling, do you think that Francona just kept him in after 3 innings and 6 earned runs? It doesn’t matter if the Sox had scored 7, that doesn’t mean what Wake was doing was part of why they were winning.

    Adjustments and gameplanning are part of all sports. Just because a team wins doesn’t mean everything they did worked. It doesn’t mean you do the same things that didn’t work last time next time because, well, hey we won last the game against them. Especially when it’s that close…

    I’m not trying to be a prick here Clarion, so I hope you don’t take this the wrong way. You know I love a debate, and we tend to be eachother’s brick wall…

    Can you please provide some evidence that Cody neutralized Nix before you just throw that out there again. I’ve provided plenty of evidence to the contrary.

  99. “Tiger was dominating the golf world, but still changed his swing twice, because he knew there was a better way… He wasn’t content with just winning.”

    Correct me if I’m wrong here but I’m pretty sure Tiger changed his swing because he was losing every tournament.

  100. And this is why I spend so much effort defending my position…

    Because here comes Chet with a comment that clearly shows he’s paying more attention to what other people say I’m saying than what it is I’m actually saying.

    However if Jordy has a 4th grader garding him, I absolutely agree that we should put him in the post.

    What % of touches do you think Roosevelt Jones gets in the low post? Seems to me they use him a lot like we use Oladipo. He’s a garbage bucket guy and a guy you give the ball to on the perimeter and get outta the way. He shoots a hell of a floater… What did Butler do every time they saw Jordy matched up with him? Straight down to the block.

    Sometimes match-ups dictate how you use your personnel. It’s just a fact of sports and always has been. Cody could have been put in a better position to succeed against Nix.

    Chet, you like your boxing analogies, and seem to be a fan of Ali… Did he beat Foreman by standing toe-to-toe with him and getting in a slugfest? No… He sat back on the ropes and let Foreman punch himself out because he knew he couldn’t out-power him.

    Diverse tactics for different match-ups. Could Ali out power most fighters? Yes, but not Foreman, so he went to something else.

  101. You are wrong, and have been corrected.

    Here are the details…

    Tigers first swing overhaul happened in 1997 after he had just won the very first Masters he ever participated in… By a record 12 strokes. He was 17 tournaments into his career, had won 5 of them (29%) and was already ranked #2 in the world.

    His second swing change was in 2004. He was ranked #1 in the world. He was a year and a half removed from the Tiger Slam and had won 5 tournaments the year before.

  102. I have no knowledge as to who Wakefield or Franciosa are. But I’ll bet a bushel of Mrs. Franklin’s sons that CZ knew Nix was in foul trouble when he headed for the basket and that is what I want him to do, not play 3 point horse with the guards. I repeat, Cody and Nix played to a stalemate cause we did not need a big game from him to win and they did. You have given me nothing that alters my position. And pricks do not bother me pro or con. It still ain’t broke. 18-2

  103. You keep saying that Nix and Zeller played to a stalemate… But that’s not true.

    Cody directly participated in 11 points.

    Nix directly participated in 25 points

    That is lopsided, not even.

    I never said I wanted him playing 3 point horse with the guards either. Glad we see eye to eye on that.

    Here, I’ll just throw this put there like it’s true… Dipo and Dawson played to a stalemate, but Hulls and Yogi really picked us up and were the difference in the game.

  104. The only thing that allows me to acquire a barely passing grade in Geoff’s basketball class is ‘participation’ points.

    Is “points participated in” a politically correct term born of affirmative action basketball founded in an Establishment gymnasium?

    When on earth wasn’t “assist” enough a compliment for a decent find an open teammate? Now you get ‘participation points?’

    This changes my entire basketball career. Do soft rims get participation points? Referees participation points? Are there negative participation points for turnovers resulting in opponent’s points? Verdell Jones’s negative participation points would be quite the interesting stat line.

    This stuff is getting way too confusing. Deflections? That’s another one I’m hearing about more and more. Do deflections count toward points participated in? I thought a deflection was an attempt to not take blame. It’s a good thing?

    I never remember Knight talking about participation points and deflections…I thought it was just doing your job on the floor. Don’t take that open triple, Jordy.. It’s not worth any participation points…

    Does that the pass before the pass that ends up to be an assist count for 1/3 participation points? Isn’t the pass before the assist often more important than the assist itself?

    I digress.

  105. Yeah, you are digressing. The assist stat has been around forever. What I’m talking about may be a new concept to you, but it isn’t vrigin territory, nor is it difficult to follow.

    In the simplest terms possible, who has a bigger effect on the offensive end of the floor – Rajon Rondo (13.7 ppg, 11.1 assists) or Ramon Sessions (14.7 ppg, 4.0 assists)? Don’t think to hard on this one or you’ll lose all credibility.

    If you want an answer to your question, then yes, on occasion the pass before the assist is just as, if not more, important. However, that was not the case with Nix’s assists. He was getting those out of double teams as a direct result of Cody not being able to handle him by himself. When Cody did try to defend him solo Nix simply took his time, backed him down, and scored easy lefty lay-ups.

    Sorry this is tough on you. Maybe it’s the late hour… Love ya, Harv.

  106. Geoff, no banana, I remain unconvinced, your argument is wanting and now you are reaching. In aside, so you understand, I pay no attention to golf(I would rather wash the dishes or windows)it would be a 50-50 chance in knowing whether he is right or left handed.

  107. So, let me get this straight…Tiger was the #1 golfer in the world. He then proceeds to change his stroke a couple times. Now, he’s struggling to make the cut in the Smithville Telephone Company Open.

    I can tell there’s a lesson in there somewhere.

  108. At least I have an argument…

    Still waiting for a single shred of evidence to support your theory that they “neutralized” eachother or played to a “stalemate”

    Also hoping you answer the question of which camp you are in – the keep Cody down low always camp, or the what a great play he made at the of the game with the driving lay-up camp…

    I guess you could be in the what a great play he made at the of the game with the driving lay-up, but I hope he doesn’t do that anymore even though it was effective camp… I’d like to hear some justification for that though.

    Right now all I can tell is that you are definitely in the I’m in my own camp, regardless of whether it makes sense or not, and in the face of facts that show it may not make sense camp.

    Oh and you also seem to be in the everything we did must have been right because we won the game, and there probably is nothing we could do better or differently to get even better results camp.

  109. I’m in the, “there is nothing a 7 foot play can do behind the arc that a six foot player can’t but there is plenty he can do near the basket that the little guy can’t” camp.

    We’ve got a big guy that can shoot the three…better.

    Manute Bol loved shooting threes. So did Danny Ferry…in Italy.

    I’ll take Tim Duncan types every time.

  110. I’ve got no problem with him in the high post, which is where that move started, but that’s basic center play.

  111. No, Chet…

    He was dominant in his first year pro… Won his first Masters by 12 strokes… Got up to #2 in the world… Then changed his swing… He then finished the year ranked #1…

    It took him a bout a year to complete the overhaul amd dropped down to #4…. Then he went on an amazing run of 5 years ranked #1 and won 7 majors…

    Then he changed his swing again… He dropped down to #4 for a year while he fleshed it out… Then goes on another run of 5 years ranked either #1 or #2 and wins 6 more majors…

    THEN… The world comes crashing down around him with the scandal…. At the time he ranked #1 in the world and had won 6 tournaments that year…

    He takes some time off… goes to sex rehab… Gets a divorce… Drops down to #68 in 2010 and then all the way down to 128 in 2011…

    He is now changing his swing for a 3rd time and has climbed back up to #2 in the world. He is only struggling by pre-scandal Tiger measures. He won 3 tournaments last year and just won his first tourney of 2013 over the weekend.

    So no he isn’t struggling to make obscure cuts, and I’m not sure what lesson you are implying…

  112. I don’t think we did ‘everything right’. It’s a basketball game. Every possession is different. The next game will be the same way. CTC will change up strategy throughout.

    I doubt we see Cody shooting 15 footers, though.

    At least, I hope not.

  113. HH crying about others being condescending and it’s a weak go-to?


    Every Irony Meter on earth just exploded.

    HC crying he never brought up Dirk (when I get ripped for saying Zeller should be Alford when I’ve never HINTED that?)


    Geoff, great point about Maddox and a running back doing the same thing over and over. And Tiger.

    People say, “Cody sucked at shooting outside during a game so he stopped” is pretty dumb because Yogi couldn’t hit the ocean for the first 10 games and kept on shooting and now he’s hitting them.

    Chet, after Tiger changed his swing, he sucked for a couple years….and then came back to dominate again. He fell off again after that whole sex thing for a couple of years but won several tournaments last year. And he won the first one this year by 4 strokes last weekend. So, yes, there is a lesson. You’re clueless. And he changed it the first time when he was still kicking butt.

    Dustin, you sure are touchy about “Zeller driving from outside was never mentioned.” Want to show us where it was? All I ever saw was talking about his outside shooting.

    As far as the 3 to the temple with Will, I actually wrote a letter to Crean asking him to make him stop and explained why. Glad he listened to me.

  114. Geoff, when he crushed field at the Masters his first time out there was nothing wrong with his swing. Has he performed better at the Masters since? No.

    The problem was with Tiger and how he swung the club. Not the swing itself.

    If it was the swing, it wouldn’t have worked in the first place.

  115. Zeller couldn’t be Duncan in a million years as he gets man-handled by college players.

    He said himself he needs to play outside more. And he had 2 beautiful drives from out there.

    Geoff was right…..again. You guys need to make up your minds about praising those plays or quit your whining he “needs to stay inside.”

    I just think you refuse to admit I was right about him needing to be outside more and would rather chew your own arm off.

  116. Chet claims he never watches golf but now is an expert on Tiger after getting his stupid point rammed down his throat?


    btw….After Tiger destroyed the Masters that first time, they changed the course so he couldn’t do that again.

    It would be like Wilt dunking the ball 50 times a game and them raising the rim 3 feet and him only dunking it once and then ripping wilt because he couldn’t dunk it 50 times anymore.

    Tiger made some of the most gorgeous shots I’ve ever seen after he changed his swing.

  117. Chet, you go back through my points and find out where I advocate he become Danny Ferry and I’ll let it go.

    Until people start debating my point, instead of some ridiculous 3-point shooting center argument that they made up in their own head, I will continue to defend my position.

    Again, so there is no question what that is… We use Zeller in very limited ways in the half court sets – almost exclusively on the low post. The gameplan doesn’t seem to change regardless of the opponent. I would like to see him catch the ball in different areas of the court and be able to attack in multiple ways. I’d like to see the same creativity and effort I see in getting Watford different types of touches INSIDE THE ARC for Cody. Against teams where Cody has an obvious advantage in the low post we should absolutely take advantage of that. But in games where that advantage doesn’t exist we should take advantage of his other numerous skills and physical abilitities.

  118. Chet – I hope he doesn’t shoot too many 15 footers against Purdue either… Unless I’m missing something, Cody will have a decided advantage in the low post and this is too important a game to not take advantage of that.

    How do smart people keep missing my point when I so clearly spell it out?

    It makes no freaking sense…

  119. Didn’t Tiger miss one cut in like 10 years after changing his swing the first time?

    So, to say “He couldn’t make the cut at Sister Mary of the Blind tournaments” is pretty stupid.

    Also, how many Majors did he win after changing his swing?

  120. Geoff—–Exactly right in # 129.

    These guys keep CRYING they want “rational civil debate” when ALL THEY DO is put words on our mouths after getting their butts kicked and then WHINING about what “we” said.

    Talk about needing to “grow up” and “acting like a 5 year old.”


    I’ll tell you why they keep missing your point.

    It’s because it’s what I’ve said since Day 1.

    And they’d rather someone torch their house than admit I knew what I was talking about.


  121. Geoff you may cease and desist. You are generating your own consternation in failing to produce an argument to persuade me is consuming you. You seem to think my goal should be to persuade you, wrong, to me it has little to do with the sun coming up tomorrow. When I was young and found myself in your predicament I found that 3 fingers of Famous Grouse scotch helped for a more harmonious outcome . I’ll continue to read your posts.

  122. Geoff, comment#129 sums up your point perfectly. I must add, that by pulling Zeller out of the paint, it not only opens up his quickness, but also opens up the paint for drives by his teammates. Cody has good passing skills. As an offense, we want to attack the rim, draw fouls. This is where Vic, Will and Yogi can excell.
    Diversity is hard to guard, IU has many weapons to take advantage of. As a coach, I would want to use every advantage at my disposal.

  123. Last year we had Pritchard, Roth, Jones and Moore.

    This year only Crean is left.

    We lose.

  124. Translation for # 133:

    “I don’t care what you say, I’m never changing my mind…..especially since you agree with Laffy.”

    All you guys would flunk debate class (I was in debate class in high school and my partner and I never lost a single debate. Not one…..and that was the teacher grading us.)

    We never said Zeller should be Ferry or Dirk or Alford yet you keep whining we did.

    The teacher would laugh you out of the class for always pulling that stunt.

    So, save the “We’re here for rational debate” crapola and “We’re mature and you aren’t” baloney.

    And you all saw with your own eyes what Zeller can do from outside, so it has to HURT you inside to know your constant “He needs to spend all his time in the paint” is pretty stupid.

  125. Everything Clarion needed to know, he learned in the 3rd grade. I’ve never seen anyone budge him. The closest was when JPat begged him to listen to his reasoning about Coach Wilson’s dark secrets. Clarion almost lent an ear, and was about has diplomatic as I’ve ever seen him. Almost.

  126. Geoff,

    I’ll defer the diversity and nuances of center play to you. You’ve spent more time devoted to studying the subject. I’m a casual fan and never coached above high school. I do know how lots of big men fared based upon how they tailored their games, that’s all.

    Food for thought.

    If you find yourself walking down the street accompanied by someone wearing floppy shoes, orange hair, and a big red nose don’t be surprised if someone points to you and says, “look at that pair of clowns.”

  127. “Credibility” on a blog…? Interesting concept.

    The progression in the discussion is now centering around Cody moving in the offense and not becoming a one-dimensional post player that sets up inside like a robot every instance he runs down court. I don’t even remember Tom Pritchard playing that game. Pritch would even flash to the free throw line to open up spacing or set screens, pick and rolls, etc.

    Nobody on this blog has ever advocated not using Cody’s full abilities or utilizing his one-of-a-kind guard-like skills rare to a 7-footer.

    The previous weeks arguments(mostly presented by Laffy)have been concentrated on the negative thrashing of Cody because he’s not living up to some ridiculous standard Laffy has created in his head surrounding Cody and his coach’s personal boasting about his 3-point stroke and what he accomplished in a 3-point shooting contest(and some success in 3-A high school ball)and how that should now translate to him proving it in games…It had nothing to do with getting the ball at various locations away from the basket to utilize his other skills or open up the lanes…Laffy was obsessed with the fact he’s not taking the long range shots and not draining the long range shots.

    Geoff’s current attempt to back everyone into a corner in the false selling of something never advocated(turning Cody into a one-dimensional player)is pure deception the original focus of criticism aimed at Zeller. The criticism primarily revolved around the reluctance by Cody to loft a 3-point shot.

    I don’t care if he won a contest, makes 7 out of 10 in practice, or shot a couple in 3-A ball while being guarded by guys he towered over. There was no pressure on those 3-point shots in high school when Cody understood he could get his points in an easier fashion any damn time he wanted to go inside.

    Maybe there was some tunnel vision on Sunday..Maybe Cody got lured into being a bit more one-dimensional against MSU..Maybe Crean deserves some of the criticism for letting that happen. But to say it’s been a season-long flaw…To sell Cody as a player that hasn’t moved outside on many occasions, in many offensive sets, in nearly every game, is simply false.

    There was first a thrust to label him “soft” when he goes inside. Now there’s a thrust to label him as a braggadocios coward that can’t back up what he did in a standstill contest.

    Cody has not developed the skill set to hit triples on the move. He can’t even shoot a fadeaway jumper..He hasn’t experimented with a hook shot. He rarely uses the baseline jumper. It’s all related, folks. He has his strengths, but the full array of post moves(turnaround, power moves in control) and fluid movement in setting up for long range shots is not there yet.

    I needs to grow in all facets of his game. He doesn’t absorb contact very well and struggles to get the ball to find the bottom of the well when he takes a good amount of resistance…

    All that being said, he is still one of the most dangerous centers in the country. His ability in the open court(not the same skill as stopping on the dime like Watford and draining deep shots), his active feet and ability to stay within his skills, his deceptive quickness in a first step from the baseline, his fundamentals in positioning and board play, his free throw shooting…

    And let’s face facts…coaches and defenders are beginning to identify and exploit a few of his weaknesses. Is it enough to “neutralize” Cody not withstanding the perfect “gameplan?”

    I still put my money on Cody.

  128. Geoff-

    I’ve heard Dakich slather quite an amount of praise to how high of ceiling there is for A.J. Hammons. I hope Cody has it as easy in the low post as you are suggesting he’ll have tonight. I don’t think Hammons has the quickness to match Cody. Couldn’t that make for the perfect time to flash out to the free throw line and pop in a couple easy ones from fifteen..or drive him to the basket..or clear things out for Oladipo to drive and force Hammons to help and get drawn into fouling?

    I’m never at ease in any game in Hack-me arena. I have a gut feeling this game will go down to the wire as usual.

  129. The cloaked philosopher, Husky ‘foghat’….Always the voyeur..Always lurking. Never possessing the constitution to find a stance to hold strong. Always the judge in the shadows. Always fearing the judgment in return.

  130. I guess it’s “civil” when Chet compares people to clowns.


    Izzo and most every writer agrees with us. Sucks to be you.

    Thrashing Cody?


    And, for the 654th time, the ones with “unrealistic expectations” are YOU morons as I said he wasn’t the “best player/center in the country” and was called an idiot for disagreeing.

    And maybe Foghat doesn’t contribute more because if anybody ever says anything slightly negative on here, you all start soiling yourself and scream they are a “fake fan” and start putting words in their mouths.

    Sure is funny how you guys CRY how “I” drive people away when I bet YOU guys drive away LOTS of people with, “If you don;t say we’re the best team in America, we’ll HARASS you and make up crap you said just so we can “win” the debate.”


  131. Considering the comments on this thread, would the following quote from Purdue’s Hammons on goals for tonight be considered ironic?

    Re; Guarding Cody

    “try to make him pull-up and not go to basket”
    “make him shoot the ball instead of getting a lay up”

  132. Stick to the point…Cody is not a catch and shoot 3-point shooter. His set up time is far too long. He takes too long to bring the ball up to the eventual release.

    Division 1 against Big 10 competition is not being left wide-open in a carnival contest.

    No opportunities were lost. Cody needs a standstill time frame to bury the 3-pt. shot. Good luck trying to lure a defender that far from the basket when he doesn’t have a quick release. Even if he does prove he can bury the occasional triple, I doubt if it’s with enough regularity to pull a defender close enough to gain a strong advantage..Most athletic bigs in D-1 could sit back 5 feet and still close fast enough. He’s not going to drive on anyone from that range because they can cheat on the spacing due to his slow set-up time. He could get away with that in HS because of size advantage and lack of athleticism his defender. Not the case now. He needs growth in that facet of his game.

    There’s a ton of guys that could compete with Jordy in a standstill contest. Not very many that can have the accuracy while puking out a lung the pace maintained at the level a Big 10 game.

  133. I had thought of that Chet… Not in those exact terms, but yeah…

    My thoughts are independent of anyone else. I think it would be fair to say I’m walking in the same direction, but maybe not next to anyone.

  134. Ron, that’s kind of the point. That’s what everyone wants to do because they understand that, statistically, he is less of a threat to score and almost no threat at all to rebound.

    But that’s just one point of view.

  135. Harvard,

    I don’t think that Hammons has a distinct strength advantage over Cody, nor does he possess the guile and experience of the senior Nix.

    Nix weighs 270, well he’s listed at 270… My guess is 300. Hammonds is listed at 280, but he has lost a significant amount of weight since he got to PU, and I’d say he looks closer to 240. He also hasn’t had 2 or 3 years in a college weight training program.

    Cody has an advantage in the low post tonight, certainly more so than against Nix. My gameplan for tonight would be to get the majority of Cody’s touches inside 8′.

  136. Geoff-

    Can you give me percentages? How many touches inside 8′? How many touches 8′ and beyond? Should we go with 80-20? 70-30? 90-10?

    Need something to hold you to if we are to accurately determine Crean carrying out your gameplan.

    Then again, isn’t often dictated by what the defense is giving you..foul trouble…zone vs man-to-man? Do you think Purdue will do a lot of double teaming and cheating to deny the entry pass?

  137. So, when Izzo says Zeller needs to do more, he’s “trying to psyche him out” but when Hammons says “Cody should play a certain way” he’s “just being honest?


    HH crying someone needs to “stick to the point”?


    Hey freak, give us another 20 paragraph manifesto because your weewuns were hurt on something totally unrelated.

  138. ……….. “civil” ………………………….


    ………………………………… Sucks ………

    Thrashing Cody?


    …………………………. “unrealistic expectations” …. YOU morons as I said ……….. “best player/center in the country” …………… idiot for ……………….

    ………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….. “fake fan” ……………………………

    … CRY … “I” …………………… YOU ……….. LOTS ………….., ………………………………………… HARASS ……………………….. “win” the debate.”


    Another awesome Laffy quote!

    Say hi to Debbie when you get home!

  139. It’s cute how you keep crying about me, stalker, when Chet and HH and HC insult me non-stop and you’re silent.

    Get over your obsession with me, fruit cake.

  140. Just figured that the blog bully needed some of his own medicine!!!

    Love to point out the flaws of someone that has no idea what they speak of and needs to use insults and rants to get their point across. Don’t worry Laffy I will get bored with you and move on to the real IU fans and their constructive comments soon enough.

    Hope everyone noticed I didn’t call him a name or put words in caps or quotations!

    Say hi to Debbie!!!

  141. Harvard, re: post #139…


    Laffy can say whatever he wants. He has his ideas and I have mine.

    I started the discussion in this thread with posts #5 and 6. They are completed unrelated to any discussion Laffy has started in the past. There wasn’t a single mention of 3 pointers in either post.

    If you want to obsess over 3 pointers then you may, but don’t point your discussion towards me, and don’t pretend your arguing some point I never actually made.

    I am only painting the people in a corner that seem to be opposed to using Cody in various ways depending on the match up. If those people choose to hold that belief because they think they I am advocating he become a 3-pt shooter then that’s on them. They aren’t paying attention or they can’t read – one of the two. I’ve never come close to saying that.

    So don’t come on here and say that the discussion has gone away from where it started…

    I started the conversation. I never mentioned 3-pointers. Go back and look at the facts.

  142. Bart, the only “bully” is you.

    You’ve been on here about a week and almost all your posts are nothing but attacking me.

    That makes you a fruit cake stalker/cyber-bully.

    You love “definitions” so much, go look it up: your ONLY purpose on here is to follow me around like a lost puppy attacking me.

    Like I said, you sure do have no problem when Chet and HC and HH insult me non-stop.

    And I’m not the one that starts foaming at the mouth with FAKE FAN when someone doesn’t agree with me like your buddies do.

    Dustin, he admitted he’s going to continue to stalk me and harass me so save your lectures how “I” ruin this place.

  143. Harvard, re: post #149

    I think Crean should be preparing his team for any scenario, and I’m sure he is.

    If they go primarily man then I think they should be primarily running offense that will get Cody touches within 8 feet when in the half court. Hammons is a bit of an unknown. Cody has never faced this version of him, and Crean has never coached against him. There will certainly be a feeling out period. I think that it should start down low, and if for some reason Cody has issues finishing over his length than an adjustment should be made.

    If they go zone then you have to be prepared for ways to get your best player and leading scorer some touches. It will have to be more creative than posting him on the right block since zone usually does a good job of denying quality post up opportunities.

    Foul trouble may dictate your adjustments, but it rarely comes into play in your gameplanning. That is up to the whims of the refs…

    Crean has 3 years of prior experience against Nix. There’s no mystery to his size or strength or quickness. I would prefer a different gameplan than banging up against a bigger, stronger guy. In the end they did it. But it wasn’t gameplanned like they thought they needed to start out any differently than against any other team or defender.

  144. Look who is running off to Dustin now…LOL…Never called you one name, never belittled your sexuality, just pointed out your useless bulling and rants!

    Poor Laffy…no one likes him!

    Post some comments without using 5th grade tactics and I will stop pointing out your constant bully tactics.

    I would love to debate some of your points of view but I refuse to drop down to your level of civility!

    Say hi to Debbie tonight at dinner!!!

  145. I don’t think Hammond will be able to keep up with CZ for 30+ minutes…fatigue will be a factor…Izzo even said he thought it was a major factor in the second half…not sure PU’s bench can handle ours…we generally sub aroung the 8 minute mark, so it will be interesting to see if we can break the game open at that time!

  146. Wow. This thread is the gift that keeps on giving. Lots of great points made, gentlemen. Lots of great redundant arguments that were also redundant, too. A truly entertaining read.

    I’m not going to go back through and re-read the 150+ posts made over several days, so correct me if I’m wrong. But has anybody pointed out that Payne tripled his season total in 3-point buckets? That outside production will certainly cause teams to have to take some valuable practice time scheming against that going forward. I thought Cody’s 18-footer looked real good before it rimmed out. It may just be a matter of matchups, but defenses seem to be cheating a little more on him lately. If he sees that go in, maybe he starts taking more like that and it loosens up the post defense. At the very least it makes opposing coaches have to start game-planning for it more.

  147. Bart, I haven’t seen PU play much this year, so I can’t comment on Hammond’s fitness level. But I thought fatigue level would have been more of a factor against Nix, too. Figured Cody would run him off the floor. Hopefully we can do a better job of getting their bigs winded tonight.

  148. In case you missed it, stalker, I’ve told Dustin many times about the hypocrisy on here when it comes to personal attacks, so I don’t know why you’re crying about “now.”

    And save the “I never called you a name” nonsense. Just because you “use definitions” doesn’t mean you’re not throwing our insults……just like the rest of your garbage.

    And, feces-for-brains, the bully is you and your buddies. If someone DARES have a different opinion, they are harassed NON-STOP over it.

    You “refuse to drop to my level” when almost all your posts are attacks against me?

    That’s just priceless.

    You’re actually worse than me as I talk basketball in most of my posts.


  149. Bart295, that was hilarious not to mention being a real time saver.

    It’s called projection, you know. He just accuses everyone else of his own misdeeds and it somehow makes it all magically acceptable (but only to himself).

    While your posts are fun and entertaining I’ll continue to ignore the resident angry screamer as most of the Scoop does. After all, I only need to read #151.

  150. Chet is finally right about something. It IS called “projection”….and it’s YOU clowns doing it.

    You attack me in every post you talk about me. So does HH and HC.

    And yet, you wwwwwwhhhhhhiiiiinnnnnneeeeeee about MY “personal insults.”

    And, as Geoff said many times, you guys do NOTHING but put words in our mouths and then rip “us” for saying it…..and then cccccccrrrrrrryyyyyyyyy about “rational civil debate.”


  151. It’s pretty rare that Chet ever puts words in my mouth… I get the feeling that when he does it’s because someone else did it first and instead of carefully reading 127 posts he just sorta goes with the feeling of what’s going on… Which is why I re-state my point as clearly as possible each time someone new chimes in.

    Harvard is really the main culprit, but I still have respect for him…

    Clarion and I I think have a mutual respect as well, regardless of whether we agree or not. That one took some time, it I’m pretty sure we get eachother now – doesn’t mean I don’t occasionally try to move that mountain. Kinda like Tsao… I think even he tolerates me now.

    I dont think Podunker has ever misrepresented my opinions.

    It’s pretty much just Harvard, and occassionally Clarion.

    OH! That brings me to another non-basketball point that I thought of when Chet made his “clown” remark…

    See next post…

  152. Politics… The whole clown analogy is how I see our current political climate.

    You have about 50% dems and 50% GOP… Give or take…

    Each side thinks the other side is wearing a clown outfit.

    Sooooo, when one politician or group brings up an idea it takes either forever or never to get done… Because one side will claim the idea as theirs immediately associating that idea with clowndom to the other side regardless of its merit.

    So when a republican says I think we should pass a bill outlawing the use of unwashed forks in restaurants the democrats will say, “look at that clown coming up with another clownish idea”, instead of saying, “that makes perfect sense…. Who wants to eat with an unwashed fork. It gross and unsanitary!”

    And when a democrat brings up a bill saying plumbers should have to be insured if they want to open a business, Republicans will spend a decade saying, “what a foolish idea that clown came up with”, instead of, “wow it makes perfect sense to protect homeowners against faulty work.”

    That’s why I try not to walk down the road with either side. It gives me the ability to look at an idea on its merit instead of the lenses a party uses to portray it.

    I like your clown tidbit Chet!

  153. Geoff, in post 154 where you claim you paint me(people)in a corner, I totally refute, reject and deny as not ever possible. I do not allow it to happen. I did not believe your stuff and you did not believe mine, no painting involved. Our walls are not just tall but wide. But that really means nothing. Now as far as post #164, I am so conservative I have 3 right arms. But as for how this country should work I could set down with you, Chet and a couple of others and in 120 days make dramatic progress. And none of us would try to claim credit. POTFB!!!!!!!

  154. Not really Clarion… The only reason I used that language was because I was repeating Harvard’s use of the phrase. I don’t feel like that was what I was painting anyone in a corner. It’s usual Harvard hyperbole, so I was speaking n a language he would understand…

    I think real people can solve lots of issues in a reasonable fashion and in reasonable time. It’s when the system and the corporations and the institutions and the $$ get a hold of (usually well meaning) people that get elected that the problems start.

  155. People cry that I’m arrogant yet HC beats his chest how it’s impossible to paint himself into a corner because he’s sooooooooooo smart and “doesn’t allow it.”


  156. ……………., stalker, ………………………………… hypocrisy on here …………… personal attacks, …………….why you’re crying about “now.”

    ………… “I never called you a name” nonsense. ……………….. “use definitions” ……………………………. our insults……………….. garbage.

    And, feces-for-brains, the bully is ……………………. DARES have …………………….. harassed NON-STOP over it.

    …. “refuse to drop to my level” …………………………….. me?

    That’s just priceless.



    My plan is working to perfection, I hoped to grab his attention away from actually posting his babble so the other Hoosier fans could have a informed discussion without being bullied by this blog hog!

  157. You sure do have an obsession with Debbie as well as me.

    Did she laugh at you when you pulled your pants down?

  158. Man, he’s openly bragging……again…..about being a stalker just to start a pizzing contest.

    And everyone else actually gives him props for it.


  159. Post #165…? If that’s analogous to your basketball depth, presumptions confirmed.

  160. I’m sorry Harvard, you don’t need to go into any detail… A simple yes or no will suffice…

    Do you think our current political climate is friendly and/or efficient?

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