Hoosiers in updated ESPN top 100

The ESPN top 100 recruit rankings are out, with four Hoosiers making the list. Noah Vonleh slid back to No. 13, while Luke Fischer is up to No. 34. Troy Williams comes in at No. 54 and Stanford Robinson at No. 99.

As an aside, ESPN might want to update heights and weights as well. Vonleh is listed at 6-foot-8, 220 pounds but measured 6-9 3/4 and 242 pounds at the Nike Hoop Summit. And the 6-11,225-pound Fischer is still listed at 6-9, 200.


  1. Hard for ESPN to keep update as they are losing all their reporters to the other sports channels. Anyway glad our Hoosier Scoop guys are keeping us updated. Wow Vonieh is almost 6’10″‘? Can’t wait to turn him loose next year. i think we maybe not be as polished but will be more athletic than last year’s team. Go Hoosiers!

  2. That’s why I like using CBS’ services more than ESPN. How can Vonleh be #34 when he’s bigger and taller than they think? Crazy how people rely on these services…

  3. Speculative puff at its finest. How does Fischer go from over 100 to 34 in a matter of weeks?

  4. Call me crazy but I think Williams, Robinson and Davis will have the biggest impact next year because they are prototypical of the system CTC wants to run. I also think Perea will have a break out year that will see him jump to the NBA.

  5. Aruss, are you suggesting that Perea will “jump to the NBA” after one more year at IU?

    While he may eventually make it to the NBA, I highly doubt it will be after his sophomore year at IU. If he was that talented, he’d have played a lot more during this past season. He has a ways to go before being ready for the NBA.

  6. Vonleh is going to get 8 pts/gm just from rebounding and scrapping underneath the basket. I picture several Yogi to Noah alley oop dunks next season.

  7. I actually don’t think it’s that far fetched that Perea could declare for the NBA after next season. He was in a boot most of the pre-season last year, then was benched by the NCAA, and wasn’t on great shape physically or mentally to contribute in B1G play… I think he could make huge strides (mostly in confidence, but also in skill) this off-season, have a productive (although maybe not superstar) year, and then get drafted on potential.

    I’m not sure I agree totally with Aruss, but I certainly think its possible.

  8. Aruss/Geoff: As much as I want Perea to succeed, I just can’t see him going to the NBA after this coming season. Yes, he had a lot going against him, but has some serious catching up too do. I have no doubts though Coach Crean will build up this mans confidence, coach him up, and disciple him as his own.

  9. hanner has more chance of going tijan than nba. ben, crean won’t coach him up because he doesn’t know how to teach big men. and when did disciple become a verb? well, crean seems to be building a Christian basketball cult so I guess anything goes.

  10. Ben… Not sure why you feel that way. Honest question – Do you pay much attention to the draft? I’ve studied it for over a decade. My interest has lessened a bit in the last couple years (although its still far greater than the average fan’s interest), but the trends and principles of the draft don’t really change.

    Last year James Michael McAdoo came off the bench for UNC. He played 15 mpg and averaged 6 pts and 4 rebounds… Yet was a projected lottery pick in the 2012 draft. 3 years ago Daniel Orton averaged 3 pts and 2 rebounds as a freshman bench player for UK and was drafted in the first round…

    Perea is still young. He has shown absolute elite athleticism. He has the physical tools to be a NBA player. He just needs to show that he has potential and he’ll pop back up on the NBA radar. It’s not going to take him being a 14 & 8 guy… If he shows he’s healthy, hyper-athletic, and has a feel for the game that GM’s think they can build on then they will draft him.

    He could literally be the 4th or 5th most impactful player on the team next year, and still have the highest or second highest draft stock. The bottom line is mistake his college contributions at IU as having much meaning on whether or not he could declare for the draft.

  11. Vonleh dropped to #13??? Oh no. We’re doomed. Maybe we should cut our losses now and start over. Next season’s already a wash. The program’s in shambles. Fire Crean now. Or. Maybe these recruiting services are every bit as fickle as some of our Hoosier fans. Maybe we shouldn’t adjust our expectations and blood pressure medication on the whimsical, snapshot-in-time, ebb and flow rankings that our team and players garner from week to week. Maybe we should just be a fan and enjoy the ride.

  12. Ben-

    Geoff is right. It’s the Crean system. Bring in a considerable amount of guys that aren’t developed in terms of basketball savvy but yet have somewhat freakishly developed bodies with giant wingspans and “elite athleticism”…They have little use to us in terms of bringing home banners(banner contribution) because just at about the time another year or two in a Hoosier uniform could pay huge dividends for our patience, they get enticed away by the NBA that will draft them based on “potential.” And it can’t hurt their prospects when the NBA scouts understand they’ve been playing around a few born and bred Indiana kids that has allowed for some picking up of actual fundamentals.

    It’s just how the Establishment wants it. We bring in the NBA sleepers that are too raw and too lacking in sound coaching to be ready when they put on the Hoosier uniform. Who cares if they’ll be schooled at the post by the Mitch McGarys of the Big 10. All we care about as Hoosier fans is that Geoff can say he was correct and the NBA will offer these kids millions just when we’ve taught them the court savvy of an average Indiana 8th grade hoopster to go with their oodles of raw athleticism. Yippee.

  13. Geoff clearly has the Hanner possibility correct. While coachv sits in his glass house filled with stones.

  14. Punjab- great post #12

    I especially liked the “adjust BP meds on a whim” comment.

  15. Can’t agree with those who say Perea has a shot at the NBA. For all the talk about his “athleticism”, the only physical skill he has ever demonstrated is his leaping ability. As of one month ago he had not shown that he can do any of the following things: dribble, catch the ball, shoot, pass, or defend without fouling. He was not even able to do the things that great leaping should facilitate, like block shots. Will he improve? Sure. But guys don’t go from not being able to catch the ball to playing in the NBA, at least not in one year. I would frankly be excited if all he did was develop into a reliable backup who can rebound and block shots in relief of Fischer and Vonleh, both of whom look to have considerably more well-rounded games.

  16. Weatherman… You clearly haven’t seen any of his prep film (And apparently you haven’t paid attention to the past 15 years of the NBA draft). Perea demonstrated the ability to do all of those things at a very high level of HS ball. If you would like I can go back and name 15 players that got drafted in the past 10 years with resumes similar to Perea’s.

    Harvard, regardless of whether what you said is true or not, it is most certainly beside the pont of this conversation.

  17. like weatherman (are you really a weatherman?), I was referring to hanner’s nba chances after his next season, not in a few years.

    Geoff, I’ve seen hanner’s prep film. these are highlights, not showing all the times he struggled. jurkin looked like a sure-fire stud in his prep reels also.

  18. Geoff/Harvard,

    I respectfully disagree. Geoff, I admit, I don’t follow the draft. Once they leave college, I basically stop following the athlete. Maybe I will follow Oladipo and Zeller. Don’t know. My thing is this. Saying Perea will make the leap to the NBA after this coming season is like saying Kmart is going to out profit Walmart. Won’t happen. I just don’t see it. The man is just too raw.

    I hope you and Harvard are right. Would love to see it. Lets revisit this again after the season, and just maybe you can say “told you so”. I will say though I don’t see how he could regress much more. Just I do t see NBA quite yet. Shall see.

    coachv/Rico Chet/NFL Draft: Makes no sense. You once stated you was a coach, but never backed it up. So what level have you coached?

  19. Geoff, you presume far too much. I not only have seen all of his mix tapes, I saw him play in person both for his high school team and his AAU team. He has been a one dimensional player since the day he first appeared on the scene. Well, two dimensional in that he could dunk on offense and block shots on defense. He was able to score in transition, but rarely in the half court, and he has never been able to handle the ball or shoot well.

    Moreover, his high school career is irrelevant. Even allowing for injuries and suspensions, he has not yet shown he can translate even his limited skills to college. His footwork, timing, positioning, and technical skills were all sorely lacking, and if anything regressed over the course of the season. He couldn’t even block shots against the cupcakes on our schedule who had no one even approaching his size.

    As for the draft, you can list whomever you would like from the past, in the present he has no shot. Trevor Mbakwe and CJ Leslie, both comparably athletic (not identical, don’t get all technical on me) but far more accomplished at a similar position, both project as 2nd round picks. That means they have at best an outside shot of making a roster. When Perea shows the kind of productivity that they did, I will agree he has at least a chance. Until then, he is just a guy who can jump high.

  20. Weatherman… That’s because Mbakwe and Lesle stayed in college too long. They basically proved to NBA scouts what they were. Had they both declared early they would’ve had higher draft stock.

    Maybe you forgot, but Hanner didn’t play against the cupcakes on our schedule… And he was hurt in the preseason… In a walking boot. While everyone else was gearing up and getting acclimated he was sitting on the sideline texting his boys. Then when he got out of the boot the NCAA sidelined him.

    I never said he would be great next year for IU, or even good. I think he has that potential. I also know that all of that is basically irrelevant to his NBA draft stock.

    Btw, getting drafted in the 2nd round is still getting drafted.

    Oh… And Ben, Harvard was not agreeing with me on this point… He was just trying to take another swipe at Crean.

  21. I rather be an example and stay “too long”, get my degree, and chance on being drafted. Shame on these NBA scouts scrutinizing kids for staying the coarse. Don’t make a bit of sense of what we dream of our kids becoming.

  22. I coached jr. high, Navy, high school and other teams for more than 45 years. I don’t make it a habit of bad mouthing players or other coaches. It’s just something you don’t do in public. Behind closed doors in practice is all together different because you are trying to mold young men/women into good players but more importantly molding them into good men/women you could be proud of. Having your players finish school is extremely important because the NBA is only for very few. I believe Coach’s players at IU who stayed the course have got better as a whole as players and they have finished their education with the exception of Cody who will finish his but more importantly they are leaving IU as better men. You can laugh about Coach all you want. You can make fun of his faith and his players faith, which by the way is none of your business, but you should not make fun of the boys who he helped become men. There is more to life than winning a few basketball games and Coach has helped them learn about becoming winners for life and no true Coach could ask for anything greater!

  23. Banners? Who the hell cares? Bring in more erector sets slated to have “NBA potential” in a couple years. 1 out of every 10 Tijans acquires Uwe Blab fundamentals and gets drafted? Yippee.

    And if you truly want an honest answer…Cody won’t have any bigger impact on the NBA game than Perea. They may both get their first contract and become millionaires, but they won’t last. I doubt Oladipo will be seeing the court in four years.

    These guys are all lured away by the money. They pass up the reasons for coming to IU. They sell us a bag of goods and then bolt for the bucks. Bring me young men with heart and determination to complete a mission for INDIANA rather than their wallets.

    All we ever heard was that “everything hinges on Zeller.”
    If a couple Sweet 16’s is everything, than we have become the Establishment’s complacent bitch. It’s all rather sad that our hopes for IU to bring home championships has been displaced by our basketball success being measured on how many of Crean’s erector sets can fart away a couple years on the bench in the NBA.

  24. I’ll call Hanner’s 2014 draft prospects slim, but there’s a higher possibility than you might think. Geoff’s right. NBA execs will go for athleticism/potential over fundamentals 99 times out of a 100. And people are forgetting how much of an impact the tourney will play. Hanner really only needs to play a few dominant games in March with everybody watching to see his stock soar. How many execs do you think had McGary on their radar at all– let alone consider him a potential lottery pick– at the end of February?

  25. I most certainly laughed at the thought of Hanner making it to the NBA after next year…seriously?? Everyone is entitled to their opinion though..I would be suprised if he makes it to the NBA after 3 more years.

  26. I have little to add to the comments made by others, at least not based on personal knowledge.

    My only comment would be based on the fact that Coach Crean likes to label 7 or 8 players as “starters.”

    And several times during the year, he labeled Hanner as one of his 7 or 8 “starters.”

    That has to mean that Hanner was doing reasonably well in practice, if not during games.

    That may not add up to going pro after next year, but it gives me a certain amount of hope that he will make significant progress and be a real contributor to the team.

  27. And no disrespect intended to Uwe. He got picked 17th in the NBA draft after completing……(drum roll) his SENIOR year at IU….and (more drum roll)…actually finished out his days at IU by playing in the round of an Elite 8.

    There is nothing “elite” about leaving for the NBA after two years of Sweet 16’s and being part of a final game that was a complete embarrassment to Indiana and the Big 10 in all aspects of competitiveness against a Big East foe given full future bragging rights their owing and bitch-slapping of our coach and supposed reclaimed basketball prowess/tradition.

    At the end of the day, we would have been better off playing Perea and Remy forty minutes per game. I get no gratification in being a stepping stone for developmental NBA talent that lack in the stones to stay and fight for the pride of the jersey. It’s a disgrace to the fight song and to the candy-stripes. It makes all the hype and live press conferences that surrounded Zeller’s decision to come to Indiana look even more the farce.

    Take out an insurance policy on your damn prima donna talent. Jesus had spikes put through his feet and hands. These holier-than-thou tweeters with twit pages depicting images of the cross and quotes from the Bible are not even willing to get a couple years of extra floor burns, fight for a championship banner, for a school they get to later claim as an alma mater. I don’t care if they left with their degree. Here’s an idea. How about a little sacrifice? Ever heard of the word “sacrifice?”

    How about a little “’til death do us part?” Ever heard of the word “commitment?”

    You’re not married to Indiana. She’s just your cheap whore or trophy wife. She gives you the stage you needed and then you drop her like a bag of sawdust when the gold coins begin to chatter in your ears. Remy was deceived into believing the candy-stripes were more than the preachings of a false prophet. He thought there would be a merging of faith to do right for all. Putting the jersey on the hanger when the devil uses greed to call? There is nothing of eternal light and hope in that empty promise.

  28. McGary has Greg Ostertag written all over him.

    Read an interesting stat earlier. In reference to the claims that we have an unprecedented number of players transferring, according to the NCAA, 40% of Division I basketball players transfer schools by the end of their sophomore year.

    IU looks pretty stable compared with those numbers. Even RMK only seems about average (though I doubt the percentages were quite that high during his days).

    So, Harvard, here’s another hypothetical for you…

    Your son just finished his second collegiate season. He can finish his degree by the end of summer. He’s a lottery pick. All his advisors, even his coach (Dean Smith always told players to leave if their draft status was high enough) tell him to enter the draft because his value can only go down. He is sure to sign for…oh, let’s say 15 million over 5 years or whatever they pay these guys. Whoever bought out Lloyds of London will insure him physically for one million, tops.

    Let’s add in…he was a marked man and the league officials just let guys beat on him, so the risk of injury is high.

    While your son LIKES playing for IU his LIFELONG DREAM has always been to play in the NBA. Let’s even make your kid altruistic and he also dreams of building a wing onto the Chesterton Children’s Hospital.

    So, now let’s be honest here, what are you gonna tell your son when he asks for advice on whether or not to enter the draft?

  29. Geoff, Perea played in 8 games against teams ranked outside the Kenpom top 100: Nebraska (128), Northwestern (130), Penn State (140), James Madison (165), Mount Saint Mary’s (205), Florida Atlantic (234), and Jacksonville (285). I would call them all cupcakes. In those 8 games, he had a total of 4 blocked shots. In fact, excluding a statistical outlier against Florida Atlantic, a game in which he erupted for 10 rebounds, 2 blocks, and 4 points, his average stat line against these teams was 2.5 points, 1.3 rebounds, and .3 blocks per game. And things were no better at the end of the year than at the beginning. In his last two games against these cupcakes (Nebraska and James Madison), he averaged 1.5 points, 1.5 rebounds, and .5 blocks.

    Just to be clear, I’m not trying to run him down or say that he will never contribute. What I am saying is that at this point in his career there is no indication of a future in the NBA. His perceived “upside” is based almost entirely on the fact that he is a great leaper, but even in the NBA there is more to athleticism than leaping. (If you don’t believe me, check out the video of Oladipo’s pro day). Some players do come from a long way back – Deng, the kid from Louisville was pretty rough as a freshman, as was Jeff Withey (I know, very different game, but comparable in that he developed into a really good shot blocker), but of course both of them are a good bit taller than Perea and both took four years to develop. So while I might give Perea an outside shot at the NBA after full college career, I’d eat my hat if he goes early. And to those who think he might go as soon as next year, all I can say is: I think you’ll be pleasantly surprised in the fall of 2014 when he returns and joins a loaded team ready to make a run at a national championship

  30. Do what you came to Indiana to do….I would tell my son to build it all on a wing and a prayer.

    And Cody? He wasn’t ready for the NBA. And if he was afraid of Big 10 refs letting McGary bitch-slap him around? Then he’s positively not ready to play a man’s game in the NBA.

    McGary was more ready than Zeller and he’s still in a Michigan uniform. He lost a premier backcourt player and still didn’t chase after the millions he would have been offered. He’s was projected to get picked at a number very near Zeller.

    These resurrection touters came to Indiana to bring banners and put IU on the biggest stage. The biggest stage in college basketball is the Final Four. Mike Davis’s team had far less hype and accomplished more. Defeated #1 Duke to earn a spot in the Elite 8. A.J. Moye and Jarred Odle will remain far more legendary Hoosiers than Oladipo and Zeller in my heart. To leave after the embarrassment Syracuse put on our coach and program? That’s legendary weakness when it comes to the standard, privilege, and honor to wear the candy-stripes.

  31. OK, that’s fine for question number one. Choosing between postponed riches and becoming a collegiate legend.

    Sure, why not?

    Now, for question number two. What are you going to tell him when he has a career ending injury playing against Christians for Buddha in a meaningless exhibition game. So, instead of that guaranteed 7 million dollar signing bonus, plus retirement and healthcare for life, he gets the $587,000 remaining on that insurance policy (damn those taxes) and a limp.

    On the upside the management trainee program at Perkins Restaurant has an immediate opening.

    What do you tell him now?

  32. Chet-

    When you saw that billboard calling you to Pensacola, were you chasing a sure thing?

    Life is full of risks and trade-offs.

    And it’s not like Cody’s family isn’t already amassing riches. And when it comes to ‘career ending’ injuries, I don’t think it’s as likely with a post player..Look at the legs Walton played on..for how many years?

    Chase the money. It’s all fine. It’s what Crean did. They will all be forgotten. Sweet 16’s are the goals of Ball State, Purdue, and Valparaiso. Without those five banners hanging in Assembly are basketball program(an much of the lifeblood of Bloomington) is a Perkins restaurant. It’s not really surprising to me. In the world of self-anointment, Twitter, and Facebook, lowering bars and selling success when none really exists is all the measure of a legendary mirror most need these days.

    Maybe a career ending injury would help one truly find Jesus instead of basking in your riches and acting like he’s your best friend.

  33. Without those five banners hanging in Assembly, [our] basketball program…

  34. I’m just old fashioned I guess. My studies come first. That’s my insurance policy, in case I get injured, can’t play sports anymore. Once I have that baby in my hand, off I go if I am good enough to make it.

  35. ronb,

    how do you know crean made zeller a better man? what values did he impart the his parents did’t already teach him? as a parent, I would be insulted to think that a stranger was better equipped to teach my son something that I could not. he sire can’t teach post moves. crean being a religious zealot does not make him a role model. I certainly would not have my son play for a man who thought some fairy tale hero was responsible for what happened in his life.

    did you read the story today about the parents in Kentucky who bought their 5 year old a .22 rifle for his birthday which he used to kill his 2 year old brother. family members said it was god’s will and the 2 year old was in a better place. better than being alive? god’s will was to have an innocent 2 year old with a bullet in him? how can people be so stupid?

    sometimes the hillbilly is right, despite his frequent grammatical errors, his writings have a certain poetry to them. further, I agree that college glory is worth more than some gold ducats when you are old, gray, and taking measure of your life. if I had been blessed with talent, I would gladly play all 4 years of college. worked ok for tim Duncan.

  36. Weatherman… It’s apparent you don’t get it. I can’t make you get it. This year was a waste for Hanner. He was never in the groove, and as far as we can tell it was by no fault of his own. His effort was there, the coaches were happy with his attitude. He was held back by injury and sanctions.

    I have no idea if he will ever become a player. Further I’ve never stated any confidence he will. I do think he has potential. I have seen enough tape to know he has enough basketball acumen to be a D1 contributor. He isn’t just a physical freak. I don’t have confidence that Crean will be able to help him reach his potential. I just don’t think that big men are Crean’s thing.

    However, every single point that you’ve made and that I’ve responded to above is completely irrelevant to the NBA argument. I can give you plenty of examples, recent examples, of NBA teams selecting athletic bigs that hadn’t proven themselves at the college level. If you don’t think past performance is a good measure for predicting future behavior then I don’t know what to tell you. NBA execs pick these guys. I’m not saying its right or wrong. I’m not saying I think Hanner is ready for the NBA or will ever be. I’m not saying IU should push guys to the league when their stock is highest. I’m not being a proponent for anything at all… I’m just stating the facts… Hanner fits the mold of a lot of recent NBA draft picks.

  37. Coachv,

    I agree with a couple of your points and disagree with a couple others.

    Agree – I doubt that Crean has made Cody a better person… He came to IU as a Mr Basketball, a winner, and a valedictorian. He came from a great family that instilled great values.

    Giving 5 year olds guns is dumb. Justifying a toddlers death as God’s will when he is shot is even dumber.

    Disagree – my guess is Crean actually believes that hard work is more a contributing factor in ones individual success. I’m sure he preaches that much more in practice than letting go and letting God.

    I don’t think you can place your values on others and just assume they are universal. Sticking around 4 years worked for Tim Duncan, and it has worked for others…. However, it has also been detrimental to many players NBA draft status and dreams. If you were a hot commodity as a freshman like CJ Leslie was, where you were a borderline lottery pick, but definitely a 1st rounder, and now you are a 2nd round pick, who never did anything in the NCAA tournament, and won’t have a guaranteed contract n the NBA… Do you think if he never makes it in the NBA that he will have regrets? His dream since he was a kid was to be MJ (or whoever) and play on the NBA, and if he’d left as a freshman he would have had a multi-year guaranteed contract, and some team would have had to give him a shot…. Instead as a 23 year old rookie 2nd rounder he ends up in the D-League and never gets a roster spot or a real chance at getting NBA minutes…

    I’m not saying one way is right or the other, but I think it’s naive to say that sitting back when someone is old and grey that their college legacy is going to mean more than a shot at their dream.

  38. Harvard – The NBA wasn’t giving out any million dollar contracts when Uwe was in college. The landscape and the league is slightly different these days.

    It’s one thing to pine for the good ol days, but its another thing entirely to try to compare the decisions or situations that the current generation of kids are facing with those of 30 years ago.

  39. It all reminds me a bit of that cheesy song. It’s not really reaching the mountaintop, it’s the climb.

    When you miss out on a huge chunk of memories and the things you could accomplish unselfishly with teammates…If you miss out on how it would feel to stand tall with your teammates under the center court lights in a pitch black Assembly Hall as another set of floods illuminate the hoisting of a championship banner your heart and sweat played a part…? You may not be missing out in your ultimate dream, but you’re missing out on the flavor and special moments that you hold dear in the meaningful “climb” that wasn’t just about you. What is a dream if not payed back to the countless unselfish souls that helped you get there?

    “Ain’t about how fast I get there, it’s the climb.”

    Don’t deny yourself the character experiences and what you’ll remember most when you make others part of your climb.

    Maybe it is a totally whacked out pile of greed separate form the day Uwe Blab played. Can’t rightly deny that’s true..But maybe that’s all the more reason to stay humble in your ascent and dream of being a leader and example for those with as much heart but never quite the skill to make it to your mountain top. Please don’t tell me the day has come where individual dreams have extinguished the eternal light of sport in its most unselfish form; where the pursuit pf a collective spirit and bonding of many hearts and dreams can unite into the true euphoria a sum so much greater than any its parts.

  40. Nobody dream of playing on the greatest team anymore? Nobody dreams of undefeated seasons and cutting down of the last nets?

    The only dream worth dreaming on a basketball court is how far you can take your individual stat sheet and individual highlight reel?

    Damn…And here I thought this was the game of our great Indiana tradition.. Here I thought we had fans that still believed it’s the typically unnoticed precision pf a perfectly executed play or timely screen that can be the true art of the team game. I thought the Indiana uniform meant you understood how to win big games without necessarily having the most “elite” individual talent top to bottom? Guess I was mistaken. Guess we now measure our tradition by how many players we can put on the bench of an NBA team.

    Wow…How on earth did we ever get so into the shallows of an Establishment mentality?

  41. Geoff:

    1. Just because we don’t agree doesn’t mean I don’t “get it”. It just means we disagree. There is nothing scientific to “get” in this case, only the projections of amateurs.

    2. You say “I’m just stating the facts”. What facts? You have offered nothing but claims of expertise. I actually did offer some facts, which you now say are irrelevant.

    Here is what is irrelevant: how many years you have followed the draft. If there are 15 players who

    a) came out of high school ranked in the 70s (espn.go.com/college-sports/basketball/recruiting/player/_/id/98245/hanner-mosquera-perea)

    b) had freshmen years years comparable to Perea’s, and

    c) got drafted after their sophomore years, then by all means bring their names to the table. Those would be some “facts” that I could “get”. Short of that, you’re just trying to shout me down.

  42. Geoff, how many(%/#’s/names, whatever)D League players do make it to the NBA. Is it anywhere near the mold of the MLB minor league for developing skills?

  43. Maybe I should have stuck it out in that management trainee program at Osco and never left for Pensacola and flight school.

    The memories I could have right now of retail management if only I’d completed the program instead of chasing some foolish dream.

  44. No Weatherman, it means we are talking about 2 different things. We aren’t disagreeing. I am talking about the tendencies of NBA GM’s. You are talking about something else. So your points are irrelevant to what I said in posts #7 or 10. That’s what you don’t get.

    Clarion – couple different ways to look at it. 1) the number of call-ups increases every year – in its first year there were 8 players called up. Last year there were 43 called up a total of 60 times. So NBA teams are using it more. 2) However, it doesn’t produce stars like MLB minors does. That is a true developmental system. Almost every single player in MLB does time in the majors including every player that’s an all star right now. I don’t think there has ever been an NBA all star that started in the D League. They are starting to use it more like MLB does, sending established players down occasionally to do rehab stints. I’m not sure it ever will be a true “developmental” league until they change the relationship between the NBA and NCAA.

    Harvard – you are once again projecting your values on others. I get that you think that people should value certain things. Hopefully you get that different people value different things. If you come from a family that has a small % of college graduates there is less of a chance that you will value a college education or experience. If your goal is to achieve success and legendary staus with an NBA team, why is that less admirable than wanting to achieve them with an NCAA team? You keep talking about the journey and the climb… Well the reason some of these kids are on this step of the journey is because they are obligated to… It’s the rules. I’m not sure why you can fault a kid for following the rules placed on him. Their dreams are different then yours Harvard. Your incessant bitching about it isn’t going to change it back. And just because you don’t value what they do means they are failing themselves.

    (Harvard… Curious, do you think Matt Barkley has regrets? Just in case you don’t understand that question, he was the projected #1 overall pick in last year’s NFL draft, but he stayed because USC was supposed to have a legendary team and win a title… Of course they didn’t… He had a mediocre year… He got hurt late in the season…. And he ended up getting drafted in the 4th round… Essentially costing him multiple millions of dollars and a guaranteed starting role on a team. I’m going to guess when he sits back on his front porch 50 years from now he’s going to regret not going early)

  45. You talk about the scouts all you want Geoff, but don’t you think they fill the young man/women’s head with empty promises? That’s the thing. Professional and non professional. Everyone lives for today, and don’t think about tomorrow. Why wouldn’t you want a degree in your hand? That’s your backup policy! Your hefty payday might not last long. Everyone is out for the next best thing. Is it a crime to encourage our students to graduate, and think about the “what ifs” in life?

  46. Sure Ben, I definitely agree with the majority of what you say… I’m not sure it’s a crime to tell a kid to follow his dream when his value is at its peak, but I agree with the rest of the sentiment.

    I especially think that a degree is valuable when it doesn’t carry a load of debt with it.

    The reality is though, that we hold basketball players to a completely different standard than we do other professionals, be it sports or otherwise. Baseball players don’t come under the same scrutiny, yet a much lower % attend college at all. Tennis and golf… Most of the best players never go to college. Hockey… Most play juniors until they get drafted. The best musicians, dancers, actors… They go to professional careers before college, and many never attend traditional classes. If a kid is an elite mathematician the top science and engineering firms will be all over him before he finishes his degree.

    Is a degree a good thing? Sure. Will it help you get a better job? Maybe. I know a 100 people in Portland that are under-employed and have enormous student loan debts. And there are probably 10,000 that I don’t know…. And a Million more in New England… And 10 million more east of the Mississippi…

    Talent, attitude, and personality will get you 10 times further than your degree these days (maybe always). So besides the fact that the rules essentially force kids to go to college to pursue their real dream, I can’t hate on a kid for chasing their dream and getting paid for it, nor can I hate on a mentor for giving them the appropriate advice.

  47. CoachV I did not bring up Cody’s name other than say he would get his degree. You have no idea what happened in practice. Zeller was not the only player that Coach had. His plan gets them a degree in 3 years. I was in the Navy and I coached a lot of kids for more years than you and I can tell you my Parents and theirs did not teach me or them everything about life and the future. You would be a sad coach if you did not at least pass on something to your players, but I am sure you did and in no way do I think coaches or the military give you the things good parents do however it should be every coach or mentors goal to help kids get a better understanding of hard work and good values Christian or not. I was happy I had good Coaches when I played and I tried to pass that off to my players. You are the one placing blame on this Coach. I bet u coached very few 7″ players, if any. I don’t know your record with big men and if you were so great at it why are you not at a college some where coaching big men. It is easy to sit back in our chairs and assign blame when we know nothing about what happens in practice. I am not going to question you coaching or your ethics because I believe there should be a bond between Coaches. Your name calling and your slamming of Christians is wrong and distasteful. This is not an assault on you. I never mentioned your name or anyone else and it was my intent to pass off what this old man has seen and done. If you took it personal I am sorry but your have no right to place blame on me for how you feel. By the way your mention of the Kentucky kids in the Florida and Indiana papers they are saying the boys were playing with BB guns not .22’s but IMHO kids that little should not play with or have loaded guns even BB’s. You think it was wrong but it was the parents who gave them guns not a Coach.

  48. Here’s the other thing…

    If you are the type of person that values an education, a degree, and the things it can help you achieve if you don’t make it in basketball, then you can either continue your education while you’re in the NBA or after you retire/get cut – even if you’re 35 years old.

    However on the flip side, the statistics show that the longer a player stays in college the lessor his value is to an NBA franchise. He chances of getting drafted go down. His chances of getting a guaranteed contract go down. His years of prime earning potential shrink.

    I’m not saying that the NBA is better or worse for dong things the way they do. That judgement is beside the point. What I’m saying is the NBA operates in a certain fashion, and if your goal is to play in the NBA then there is a certain path that increases your chances… That path doesn’t USUALLY include staying in college for 4 years.

    Here is the breakdown of your 2013 NBA All-Star game rosters

    Straight from HS – 5
    College Underclassmen – 17
    Foreign – 1
    College seniors – 2 (Duncan, David Lee)

    So when you see those numbers as a kid dreaming about making it big, do you really think “I’m being sold empty promises…”

  49. Geoff,

    you keep assuming playing in the nba is or should be any players’ ultimate dream. let me ask you this. if you could only win one in your lifetime as a player, would you rather win an ncaa title playing for iu or an nba championship?

  50. Geoff,

    Your absolutely right. The player could go back, but few do. More times then not, the player becomes settled in life. As they say, go to college right after High School. Your still in a groove for schooling. I know Cam Newton did, and Bo Jackson did. That’s terrific. . Though we are human, and as we grow older, don’t like change more times then not.

    I just think we need to do more to explain why an education is important, instead of getting a big head, and let that huge pay out drain you of your morals. Do we build these big college buildings so NBA recruiters can “foam at the mouth”, or do we use the tools to educate?

  51. No I’m not assuming anything like that. I’m assuming that the kids who leave early aren’t being pushed out of college. I’m definitely not assuming that it “should” be.

    I think it’s silly for anyone to think that most of the people who are playing basketball at the D1 level don’t aspire to play professionally. My dream was to play for IU. I wasn’t good enough or physically gifted enough. Don’t think for a second I didn’t aspire to play professionally… I just knew that I had no shot of playing in the NBA. I have lots of friends who have played some level of professional basketball. I only have 1 friend who actually turned down the opportunity.

    Personally I would rather win a NCAA title with IU. But I have love for IU. All my family went to IU. However, most kids don’t grow up with the allegiances that I have. I lot of kids don’t grow up in families that value higher education like my family did. Most big cities don’t have strong college ties… They are Pro Sports Cities. Kids from NYC don’t grow up dreaming about playing at St. John’s… They want to play for the Knicks. Kids in Boston don’t care about BC, BU, or UMass… They love the C’s. You think the highest-concentration areas of talent in LA are bigger UCLA fans or Lakers fans? Name the big time college program in Houston, Dallas, Miami, Seattle, Chicago….

    I also don’t know that most kids dream about winning a championship. In my eyes the trend seems to be that they want to have “the life”, prove themselves, and then as they mature their focus shifts to winning a title.

    Listen, Cody grew up in Indiana… Went to IU… His family has plenty of money… His brothers stayed 4 years (although they really didn’t have the option of leaving early)… And in the end what did he say? Something to the effect of wanting to fulfill his dream of playing in the NBA.

    If that kid is going that path, what do you think the average elite talent from NYC or LA or Chicago coming from less stable circumstances is dreaming about?

  52. Dreaming of getting an EDUCATION, and making their families proud, and being an example for their family, their kids, and neighborhood.

  53. Ben, again I’m not disagreeing with your sentiment. 99% of kids go to college to get an education. 45% or so drop out. I’m pretty sure graduation rates overall for athletes are higher than for normal students. We are talking about the very smallest sample size of kids.

    There are maybe 100 kids a every year that flirt with leaving school early for the NBA draft… Out of millions of students that the schools build those big buildings for.

    But don’t get it twisted… Higher education is a profit center as well, not a charity. Lets not get too sentimental when we speak about the virtues of universities.

  54. Not sure why you think that a mother of a kid who made it into the NBA isn’t proud…

    Another curiousity… And I don’t pretend to know the answer. How many of the top 50 players every year in HS come from college educated parents? College is more a sense of pride among people that have gone to college than those who haven’t. I know lots of people that hold grudges against highly educated people, because they feel those people think they are better…

    Listen we could go all day… There are enormous differences between virtue, necessity, and reality… Beyond that there are differences in what you think is virtuous and what others think is virtuous.

    I’m not putting my virtues into any of my points. I’m just talking about the realities of the world we live in and it’s many perspectives. I leave my personal perspective out.

  55. Actually, upon reflection I am finding quite a heavy dose of irony with respect to Harvard’s posts.

    His major point of contention with Crean is how he uses his platform to espouse his Christian virtues… And yet here is Harvard, using this platform to espouse his virtues… In this case that young men should be loyal to their universities over their dreams and their families. That the real path to greatness is measured in your college legacy and not in riches or opportunities that the NBA may provide you.

    How is that so different than what Crean is doing?

  56. …Logic is a lost art and is meaningless and/or
    destructive here.

    On a brighter note, found a nice batch of morel
    mushrooms today.

  57. Have you seen the happy-go-lucky NBA dream for Hoosiers?

    It’s really quite the deception to glamorize that lifestyle.

    The money will never fill the void of the character lacking.

    If the Christian dazed look in your eye is the filling your head with dreams of the NBA instead of bringing a sixth banner to Bloomington, then I don’t believe you’re worth the honor to wear a Hoosier uniform.

    And here I thought “The Movement” was a about a bunch of determined Indiana kids that were going to bring a banner to Bloomington. Did I invent that term? No. Did I invent “Because it’s Indiana?” No.

    Maybe these kids need to get some stones in their jocks and learn to back their words up with the same steadfast effort…? If “The Movement” represents how much closer you get to moving into a top draft pick slot, then I don’t want you in a Hoosier uniform. If “Because it’s Indiana” morphs into “Because it’s the NBA” and screw giving back to the fans I sold my bag of goods, then I don’t want you in a Hoosier uniform.

    Save me the press conferences and the hype. Go play for someone else if Indiana is your second fiddle to a cash prize you’ve not earned while in candy-stripes.

  58. I want kids in an Indiana uniform that believe banners for Indiana didn’t end in 1987.

    A coach that wants to shake Bobby Knight’s hand doesn’t mean sh*t to me. I want a coach that shakes up his roster and teaches prima donnas the reason they wear a Hoosier uniform isn’t for Pat Forde’s list of the soon rich and famous.

  59. And when is it ever enough friggin’ money? D-Rose still doesn’t have enough to risk getting his pansy ass on the floor to help his teammates? Like I said…Cheat on your SAT…Cheat your fans the mission you claimed you came to your school…Cheat your teammates in college and you’ll soon cheat them in the NBA..Cheat yourself out of the maturity it takes to fight for things other than diamonds and fancy wheels..Cheat on your wife in a Denver hotel room.

    If that’s what dreams are about, may the die with them and find a heaven with a room made of mirrors.

  60. If you want an NBA camp from your college basketball program, then go cheer for Kentucky where the uniform represents a Calipari bowel movement.

  61. Top 10 reasons Cody should have stayed one more year:

    1. Prove Frankencody is anatomically correct.

  62. Nobody “wants” or is asking for an NBA camp…

    You could very easily swap out a few words in your diatribes and be confused for a evangelical pastor.

    Quick question… What if getting a collection of players that only care about IU and bringing a banner to Bloomington means never having enough talent to come close to that goal? Are you willing to give up hope of a title to have kids that only have that dream?

    I can’t name the last team to win a title without underclassmen that declared for the draft.

    You were a fan of Sampson the kids he gave chances to, right? Does he get a pass for recruiting kids with NBA aspirations that left early?

  63. ronb,

    I don’t think I called anybody a name or blamed anybody for anything. you sure are sensitive for an old dude. and no one gets killed being shot in the chest with a bb gun so you are wrong. again.


    I guess my point is when people say there is no reason for a college player to stay in school because he is a sure first round pick, I cringe. victor and cody had a chance at immortality in iu lore and traded that in for cash. I think there are more important things than money in life. that must be something billy Donovan is teaching his players.

    have you seen the half-sleeping nba crowds. boooooring. I think the college basketball experience is better than the nba in every single way except one. $$$$

  64. Goeff-

    It’s Friday night..Take the wife and kid to movie…or maybe another round of Baby’s R Us.

    I’ll try to get back to you later. Currently under a wife-imposed blogging restriction.

    Short answer: Give me Brad Stevens with the talent on our roster the last two years and our banner would be more than a dream. And Cody would be the #1 prospect in the nation, have an NCAA championship ring, be forever a Hoosier legend, and far more prepared for the NBA. Oladipo would have been benched more frequently in favor of getting Hollowell, Perea, and Remy more involved.

    Crean has to have his sleeper NBA talent by way of the Pipeline serve as the only thing he has on a basketball resume.

  65. I guess my point is when people say there is no reason for a college player to stay in school because he is a sure first round pick, I cringe. victor and cody had a chance at immortality in iu lore and traded that in for cash.


    Maybe it wasn’t totally the cash. Maybe they just don’t have the confidence in the coach taking them to the banner promise land.

    If we had the Miami Heat roster we could at least have a 50/50 shot at winning it all with Crean.

  66. Geoff:

    First, props on conducting multiple arguments at once. You’re like one of those movie Ninjas who tries to fight off a whole circle of bad guys. You don’t always win, but you make a valiant effort.

    And yes, we disagree. You said that Perea could have a breakout season next year and get drafted, and that 10-15 other guys just like him have done so. I say otherwise. I’ll warrant that no one in history has come in ranked below #50, averaged in the low single digits in every statistical category as a freshman, and then been drafted as a sophomore. Not even the second round. Show me an even one example and I’ll acknowledge it’s possible. Show me 10 or more and I will acknowledge you as a master Ninja.

  67. Weatherman said it best. Good argument Geoff. Even if we don’t agree completely, good discussion, and great to hear honest opinions.

  68. Weatherman – there may be a player who fits that exact profile. It would take some searching. My point isn’t that there are 15 guys who fit that exact description… My point is there are 15 guys who are athletic bigs who hadn’t proved themselves at the college level who have been drafted.

    Of course there is a chance that Perea breaks out this season… I have no idea what the percentage is, but there is a chance. There are plenty examples of guys making improvements that people didn’t see coming. It also usually takes bigs longer to develop than guards…

    However, my original statement was that “I think he could make huge strides (mostly in confidence, but also in skill) this off-season, have a productive (although maybe not superstar) year, and then get drafted on potential.”

    That isn’t a declaration, nor is it a prediction that he’ll be a stud. It’s a very measured and qualified statement. My larger point is that in no way does he have to have a breakout season next year for him to get drafted. His draft status will have far more to do with what GM’s think his potential is than what his college production is next year.

    If you want to nail me down and make me make a prediction, here is what I THINK will happen. Perea will have a decent year… Somewhere in the vicinity of 8 pts and 6 rebounds… He will not declare for the draft. However, I don’t think it’s far-fetched for someone to say he fills the promise of his potential and goes for 14 and 8 and gets drafted… It’s certainly a possibility.

    I’ve never been compared to a ninja before…

  69. Harvard – baby isn’t due for a couple more weeks. Wifey contemplated the movies tonight, but she’s in the super-uncomfortable, swelling legs & feet stage… So we decided to stay in and get a couple movies on demand…. Just watched Silver Linings Playbook (actually quite good) and we are about to start Gangster Squad.

    Brad Stevens best player went to the NBA after his soph year…

    Only you could think that benching a 1st Team All-American and runner-up to the Wooden Award in favor of a couple inconsistent freshman is a good idea…

    Crean’s resume is still better than 99% of the coaches out there…

  70. Coachv – who is saying “there is ‘no’ good reason for a college player to stay in school because he is a sure first round pick”…

    I’m not sure I’ve ever heard anyone say that… There’s a list of pros and cons… Things weigh differently based on each individual’s circumstances. The argument has never been that there is “no” good reason… Just that there are more reasons to go than to stay based on many people’s situations or preferences.

    Listen, I wholly agree that there are more important things in life than money. I’m sure money is a strong motivator, and most likely the #1 factor in most cases (I don’t think it is for Cody), but its not the only factor. Even if it is the only factor, I don’t feel it’s my place to judge a kid, or place my virtues on them. I’m a true believer that each person should be able to live as they choose as long as it doesn’t infringe on others freedoms or hurt others.

    Now why did you choose Billy Donovan as an example? Were you being sarcastic? If so, the sarcasm just seems out of place with the rest of the post. If not… If you think Donovan is an example of a coach who keeps his kids for 4 years…. All I have to say is – Bradley Beal, Nick Calathes, and Marreese Speights… (Noah, Horford, and Brewer all left early too). Listen, as much as I hate the Gators, I have a ton of respect for Donovan… But he is just as susceptible to early-entrants as any other coach.

  71. CoachV, No I am not wrong again there is a story of 2 brothers playing with what they thought were unloaded bb guns shooting air at each other but one gun did have bb’s left and the little guy got one right in the temple on his head and killed him so we must be talking about 2 different stories. I own guns and know a bb to the chest won’t kill some one. This was a freak accident. I also wish we had different rules because I would like to see them all stay and get their education before jumping to the NBA. I don’t like the NBA game either. College and IU are my game. I live in Florida during the winter and I like Florida ball but he has them leave early also, no one is exempt. Also I do think you blame our Coach all the time and you blame these players for following the money and you have a whole thing about Christians that sounds bitter and critical. Someones faith in their business. No one is throwing stones at you about your belief or non-belief. I value what you say,I really do, and you are right about a lot. You are right I am sensitive about a few things.

  72. CoachV, I know I had my share of fan and parents complain about what I did and fans have that right. I guess I never moved on from being a Coach where we never complained about a fellow coach in Public. I am sorry if you now consider yourself as just another fan who has the right to complain and place blame. My bad for maybe misunderstanding who you are these days. I thought we were talking as Coaches and not just fans. Sorry if I upset you.

  73. RonB, I’ve seen a bb penetrate the skull. Just barely. It came to rest in the dura just below the skull but it most certainly penetrated the skull.

    I’m sure if one did a little checking they could find deaths from bb guns (a shot to the eye could certainly do it).

    I have a .22 air pistol that could certainly cause a serious injury.

    Those people in Kaintuck are idiots. I read a quote from one of the adults saying he didn’t know how it could have happened because, “The boy knows how to handle a gun.”

    He’s five you backwoods, illiterate moron.

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