Seton Hall overpowers IU, 84-68

NEWARK, N.J. — At halftime, Indiana’s locker room felt as it should.

After 20 minutes of Wednesday’s Gavitt Games contest against Seton Hall, IU coach Archie Miller looked around the Hoosiers’ accommodations inside the Prudential Center and appreciated what he saw. There was a bubbling sense of confidence amongst his players, a general feeling of purpose.

“Guys knew we played hard,” Miller said. “There was a bounce in everyone’s step.”

Sustaining the positive moments that buoyed Indiana through one period, however, ultimately proved to be too difficult for this growing team.

IU’s sloppy start to the second half snowballed into a runaway final 20 minutes for No. 22 Seton Hall, which dispatched the Hoosiers 84-68 on Wednesday.

For the third time in as many games this season, there were common themes that explain how this one got away — mental mistakes and poor perimeter defense chief among them.

But Wednesday also allowed for hope that the Hoosiers have the capacity to come together. Playing merely one decent half won’t win many, if any, ball games, but for an IU team trying to grip to any semblance of offensive and defensive identity, the trip to New Jersey may have offered a springboard for the future.

“Our team played extremely hard, I felt, especially in the first half for the first time all season,” Miller said. “I thought our locker room felt right in terms of we felt good about each other, we felt good about how we were playing, how hard we were playing. Then, second half, the turnover bug really bit us early.”

Indiana committed 18 turnovers, many of them indicative of a team trying to do too much to make something happen. The simple plays will always suffice, but these Hoosiers are still navigating the learning curve of Miller’s approach to more patient offense.

They’re not there yet.

The Hoosiers also fell into foul trouble, putting the Pirates into the bonus five minutes into the second half and watching Seton Hall finish 19-for-27 at the foul line. IU center De’Ron Davis fouled out late in the second half, playing merely 15 minutes and scoring only four points.

Seton Hall also did damage from outside, making nine of its 17 3-point attempts.

And yet, for one half, this was a close game.

An early 7-0 run got the Hoosiers within 12-11 approaching the second media time out. The scoring swing featured an impressive start from Justin Smith, who was fighting for points against Seton Hall’s star duo of Angel Delgado and Desi Rodriguez. Smith, a freshman, made his first career start and finished with 10 points in 31 minutes.

Consider it one of the many early signs of Indiana following its coach’s wishes for a tougher team. The Hoosiers attacked the Pirates, going blow-for-blow in the first half, and at one point late in the half, Indiana drew four Seton Hall fouls on two possessions.

“I thought we earned the right to feel good about what we were doing out there because we had some really, really hard plays,” Miller said. “Guys were playing extremely hard. A lot of different guys got in there and made something happen.”

Consider this: even against Seton Hall’s lineup-wide size and power, IU outrebounded the Pirates 15-14 in the first half.

Indiana handled Delgado well enough, too, holding him to merely four points and four rebounds in the opening period.

“We were just committed to keeping him off the glass and not being able to get low-post catches,” IU senior guard Robert Johnson said. “That was the two main things that we were focused on in the first half. We did a good job of it.”

A flurry of Pirate turnovers — six in four minutes — allowed the Hoosiers to close their deficit, and Juwan Morgan gave IU its first lead at 30-29 with two free throws late in the half. It was part of a 12-2 run in the final seven minutes, a burst that allowed the Hoosiers to stay within 33-32 at halftime.

“We just need to keep playing that way,” said IU sophomore guard Devonte Green, who scored a team-high 16 points. “Keep sharing the ball, keep it simple.”

That’s good advice that the Hoosiers failed to follow in the second half, opening with a sloppy swing that included three quick turnovers and four fouls in the first three-plus minutes.

The errors helped Seton Hall quickly pull away, spoiling what had been a positive evening until that point.
Delgado heated up in the second half as IU’s fouls mounted. He finished with 19 points and 11 rebounds, while Rodriguez did a little of everything in pouring in a game-high 23 points.

Yes, this was a loss that featured many of the shortcomings exposed during Indiana’s shaky opening weekend.

But this contest also featured flashes of what this team can be. Improvement has to start somewhere, and the Hoosiers hope Wednesday’s encouraging first half against a strong Big East team was the start from which they can build.

“It’s the first (time) since I’ve been at Indiana that I left the floor and felt like guys battled,” Miller said. “That’s the way it should feel.”

58 comments

  1. Careless with the basketball again, but I did like the effort until the later stages of the game. Wondering if we will win 12-15 games this year?

  2. Old habits are hard to change, and the two senior guards haven’t adjusted to the new system. The quick score attempt with out of control passes seem to persist .

  3. 10 TOs between Newkirk, Rojo and Morgan tonight. Newkirk and Rojo are still forcing passes that make little sense. That’s your upperclass leadership on display right there.

    We have a team full of guards who can’t shoot. On a positive note, besides Green who looked good most of the night, I was really impressed by Al Durham. He works well within Archie’s system. 29 min and ZERO turnovers. He attacks the hoop well, too.

    DD had a pretty rough night. But it looks like this might be a recurring theme this year for the Hoosiers. Anyone with size is just going to bully them out of the gym.

    This is going to be a painful year.

    1. To a certain extent you’re right DD, but a lot of the issue with Davis is the guards’ inability to get him the ball in the post. SH was entering at will, but our more experienced guards are just scarred by Crean and don’t know how or when to look into the post… They still look when there is a player ball-side corner, and then reverse the ball when the corner guy clears, instead of chilling for a second and letting him clear to open up a passing lane to Davis (or JM)… it’s frustrating to watch…

      1. Could not have been stated clearer. Every 3rd, 4th and 5th year player has been tainted with Crean philosophy but specifically ruined are the guards. That only magnifies for Newkirk as he was lacking in guard skills and talent when he arrived. It all seeps down farther than that as the guards who never see game time but practice against the rotational players are also still carrying the Crean touch. I do have hope Johnson will transition to more positive results. This team more than lots of others could sure benefit from a pure PG learning from AM.

      2. Where were you guys the last nine years….? Watch Crean’s current players in the NBA….They still lack any presence on the court. They may get their points and fill stat sheets but the basketball IQ is severely challenged.
        When I watch other teams, it’s not just higher b-ball IQ. There is also more grit and emotion than ever demonstrated by guys Crean recruited. Crean’s guys almost look jaded…No fire in the belly. No backbone when getting pushed around. Rarely any engagement and emotions from the bench….Haven’t seen any true emotion and fire from the bench since Austin Etherington departed. We look more soft than an Alford team….

    2. DeRon has to use his new strong body and stay vertical. He uses his hands and arms now to defend. He is of little value sitting on the bench!

  4. Harvard for Hillbillies says:
    November 9, 2017 at 2:23 pm

    The 3-pt. line continues to influence the game more than anything else. Easy points….

    Hoosiers will suffer without true perimeter threats.

    When the camera pans over to the Hoosier bench, it never looks like a confident bunch….No real leader right now. No steady ‘rock’ on the floor. Unfortunately, the absence of confident leadership qualities on the floor was a rather signature theme of a Crean recruit.
    Don’t know if Archie can find enough grit and maturity to make this into a cohesive group.

    Hartman would likely help a bit…..but the lack of premier shooting will make any deficits very hard to erase. Hard to swing momentum back in your favor when you have no real perimeter threats.

    Summation:
    Team appears to struggling with a collective confidence.
    No natural leader on the floor.
    Perimeter threats seriously absent.
    Inside play thin.

  5. Hope some of you took my advice and watched Carter Skaggs tonight… He dropped 26 in the 2nd half and they were comparing him to Larry Bird…

  6. Was that “advice” you posted on Scoop…or in your private email club?

    What a shocker…Another great shooter from Indiana. Bird could do just a little more than shoot the ball.

  7. After Logansport H.S., he played one season at Bridgton Academy in Maine.

    Oh, now I see why he’s HUuuuuuge.

    1. Yes… Carter played for/with me in a regional men’s tournament 2 years ago after his season ended at BA. He is hilarious and crazy… I’ll enjoy watching him these next couple years.

      Bridgton Academy is actually where my basketball career started… as a 4th grader playing on my father’s team, the Indiana Hoosiers. The other 3 teams in the youth league were Notre Dame, Maryland, and UCLA… as a 6th grader on UCLA I beat my father’s Hoosiers, that were then starring my 2 younger brothers, for the title after losing to them 3 times in the regular season. I cried out of pure joy, which I think was my first experience crying in happiness. You’re welcome for that little story…

      I love going back onto that floor and playing. My men’s league team plays an exhibition game against them each year to get them ready for their season. That’s how I met Skagg’s and recruited him for the tourney… Then last year I snagged a kid name Bobby Planutis, who is now starting for Mount St Mary’s… This year I’ll be plucking a 6’10” beast, who we had some trouble stopping in the paint, to travel to the tourney with us. It’s a cool little relationship, that is both rewarding and nastalgic.

      1. I’ll check in on Skaggs occasionally. Sounds intriguing.

        And thanks for sharing those tales, Geoff. Hope all is well in Maine.

        My old man was terrible at basketball….I started from complete scratch from driveways to dirt courts deep in a lonely Indiana field. All my lunchtimes in high school were spent in the gymnasium. I have no tales…I only have the summer nights and playing the game under the stars on dirt court in a lonely Indiana countryside. But for me, that solitude and that primitive court was like heaven.

        1. Four/five yrs ago we had something like 16″ snow. After digging out the next day I drove by the local Junior High. Not a flake of snow on the bb court & 15 or so kids enjoying the snow day by playing basketball. ATV with snow blade, snow blower & a bunch of show shovels sitting around the court. Would have been a great ‘Indiana’ picture.

          1. Did that too….Hell, if you’re an Indiana kid, you’ll play in rain, wind, snow, ice, or in a barn filled with field mice. Soon as you get home from school, it’s grab the round leather turned to suede and head for the dirt….cement driveway…the playground. Backboards are nailed to trees for god’s sake. Mine was nailed to some old timbers salvaged from a Michigan City factory that once built Pulman railroad cars. I had a giant fieldstone rock to mark the 3-pt. line…It was good practice because it sort of hurts to fall on a 500 lb. boulder if you’re jumping forward on your long distance bombs.
            The only real trouble with playing in very cold temps is the bounce it takes out of the ball.

          2. Was working one evening at March AFB in Riverside, Ca, probably 50 yrs ago. One of the visitors asked me if I was from Indiana, than Martinsville. Was upset I didn’t recognize him. Told me he used to own the A&W stand in Martinsville. The neighborhood kids would play bb for couple of hours than hit his stand for a drink. The best business decision he ever made (he told me) was putting up a bb goal in his parking lot. We would show up there in the mornings, play bb and bought drinks all day.

          3. Love it! Great visual… My father bought the house in Maine he still lives in because the previous owners had built a basketball court off the side of the bard, and there was enough space to put a hoop up in the 2nd floor of the barn. We kept up with the snow the best we could in the winter, but it’s not always easy in Maine winters… the great part about the indoor hoop was that it forced us to put arc on our longer shots so as not to be blocked by the beams.

          4. As an INDIANA farm boy me and my neighbor buddies played tons of pasture baseball, backyard FB along with barnyard hoops but when it was inclement or cold out there was no better place to burn energy than playing haymow Hoops.

      2. Pretty darn good read. I like the gig you’ve created for yourself. Geoff I’d like to ask how old you are.

          1. Keep it up. Until you need hips and knees like me. Not a complaint as my boys have that competitive edge too.

  8. I don’t know all the specifics regarding red shirting race Thompson, but I can help but think he is needed this year. I understand he reclassified and is young, but thinning out a 6 man class, adding depth to our front court, and on court experience could of been a better option than seasoning him in practice. I’m sure it will help with building Archie’s program.

    I also think Priller should of been shown the door. This kid should of never been offered a scholarship at a Big Ten program. I would of liked to see a 5th year grad student replace him on the roster of a JUCO transfer. I understand it was probably a little late in the game to make that happen, but anyone who could contribute would of helped. Andrew Dakich would of been a solid last minute choice.

    It will be interesting to see how Hartman improves this team. I like Smith and Durham. Davis is coming along. Going to be a long year.

    1. Excellent point. The Priller thing drives me crazy. He should have been given a nice academic scholly and moved over to “manager.”

      Don’t think we’ll see too many of these spots wasted under Archie.

      I will disagree with the Dakich add, though. Only because the further that blowhard father of his stays away from IU, the better. I kind of like that he is more adversary than friend now.

          1. Speaking of jumping into new waters, did anyone of you see our former coach on ESPN2 last night? I don’t think that gig is going to last…..He lacks that old glow. Of course, coaching basketball at a place like Indiana can give a stink bug an inviting glow.
            So much great basketball played in this state. Unfair as it may…or may not be, the legendary basketball from within our borders and the legendary teams which have worn the candy stripes, makes Indiana University represent a place synonymous with the game. No matter the dust on the banners, the validation that comes with a hire is automatic. Conversely, the expulsion from McCracken after many stalled attempts to prove you belong can wipe the glow so very quickly away.

    2. Ben you are full of rancor! Your gratuitous degrading comments toward Tim Priller are demeaning, cowardly and only show yourself to be a slime!

      1. Calm down….Did you get expelled from Inside the Halitosis or something?

        Here are the rules:

        Don’t initiate a personal attack at a fellow blogger. Do not provoke via a personal attack if they have not attacked you. Attack the opinion. Attack the topic. Attack the prejudice you believe to be present in a statement. But refrain from attacking the innate qualities of the person…though you may believe more “slime” flows through their veins than your own.
        Criticisms of coaches and players is just fine…..If it was fine to throw anyone who played for Kelvin Sampson under a bus …or label such person as a degenerate for life, it shouldn’t be too big of a deal to make comments about coaching acumen, scholarships, playing time, quality of play, etc.
        In the legal world, it’s known as a precedent. I witnessed much of this precedent at Inside the Halitosis. Much has been established here as well.

      2. I don’t blame Priller at all but Crean did waste the scholarship on him and that’s the way all Hoosier BB purists most likely feel.

  9. As the basketball season goes along, everyone needs to remember this team was totally assembled by TOM CREAN after 9 seasons. Also TOM CREAN knew what players would be leaving the team to go for their chances at the pro GOLD RING, so what is remaining including the three new players was going to be Crean’s team, if he had returned for a tenth season. The future of I U Basketball will get better with Coach Miller in charge.
    .

    1. Another great point. At least I was watching a team that was attempting to play basketball last night. Can you imagine this crew running the weave to nowhere and jacking up threes at the end of the shot clock? We would have lost by 40.

  10. Let’s not be too hard on Priller.
    Priller merely represents the last vestiges of post play dominance tracing back to a line of Hoosier greats like Jobe, Bawa, Perea, Michel, and April.

    And if we want to be completely honest, Priller is probably more skilled than any of the above now in Crean’s Toe-Trippers Hall of Fame.

    The ‘Tommy Roe-tion’ offense was a weave born of necessity because there was never any truly gifted post players to feed the basketball. It was a dizzying distraction(along with the many “wings” to great things) to take the eyes off of inside guys lacking a savvy game or any real repertoire of post moves.

  11. I was enthused by the attempt to play TEAM Defense last night…much better each game so far. 1 thing I forgot is Davis’s role. he will improve under Archie IF he will stay another year. he is having to learn this role when last year Bryant filled the spot and with new coach and new system; he has a lot on his plate…they need to get used to INTERIOR passes ….as Double referred to “no more “weave” to nowhere …I just thought to many passes were dropped. All in all I thought was a great improvement as a team and I truly appreciated the effort by all.

  12. AM has had very little time to actually coach these guys. The head coach only gets a brief amount of time during the summer. It isn’t until mid-Oct that they can start practicing as a team. This is why team leadership is a big deal. When the new recruits are coming in, the juniors and seniors are the ones that set the tone for workouts and show the new guys the system and how things are going to run. When they start practicing mid-Oct as a team with the coach, there is already a lot of momentum.

    Leadership was extremely weak last year. It isn’t that there wasn’t just a loss of talent to the draft. The leadership needed just isn’t there.

    I’m really curious to see how these guys improve throughout the year with AM getting his hands on them.

  13. “AM getting his hands on them,” was probably a poor choice of words given the current climate….

    Egads.

  14. If you guys want to see some real Hoosier pride, re-watch tonight’s Celtics – Warriors game…. you’ll see this old fat guy behind the Celtics bench in my crimson IU golf shirt. Stand out like a sore thumb in that crowd of green.

  15. While I agree that Archie will turn out to be an upgrade as IU’s coach, I wonder how long it will take before people stop blaming Crean for IU’s Basketball’s woes? Two years? Three? More than three? As the saying goes, hind site is 20/20. Reading some of these posts, it’s as if Crean’s teams never won two outright Big Ten Championships within a few years! It’s as if he never recruited any McDonald’s All-Americans, or as if none of his players were ever first round draft picks. Crean’s ultimate sins were 1) he never lead IU beyond the Sweet 16, and 2) he did not coach his players to play “Indiana” style basketball. The latter is a cardinal sin and simply unforgivable. Can’t break down the best zone defense in college basketball with a freshman point guard and an undersized shooting guard with a bad shoulder? Shame on you. You should be banished from the state! For Hoosier basketball purists, the ultimate sin is not a failure to win championships, it’s not getting your players to play the “right” style of basketball. Hopefully, within a few years, Archie will have eradicated all traces of Crean’s style of basketball and lead the Hoosier Nation back to the promised land.

    1. I wonder what Mike Davis’s ultimate sin was? He took a team to a Final Four. …and back to a championship Monday. Pretty much the “promised land.” Does he need to be forgiven? Never saw anyone crying in his holy water.

      And if we’re whining about shooting guards with bad shoulders, can we whine about EJ’s broken wrist and having Dakich(named by DD as an “adversary” of IU) as your coach to stymie a tournament run?

      Listen, Crean got nine seasons with equal or more talent than nine other Midwestern teams who went to a combined 23 Elite Eights and numerous Final Fours. Purdue also has a lot of Big Ten titles. Crean would have made an excellent Purdue coach. Square pegs need square holes.

    2. Here’s the thing…kudos to CTC for his team’s accomplishments both as individuals and as a team. They did some good things. There were some really good to great players on those teams.

      That being said…I don’t recall an era of Hoosier basketball when we had so many bad players on our bench. Every program lets a few slip through but we always had guys with no business in D1.

      Always.

      I think that was an exemplary of the program during those years. CTC did a lot of things that lent themselves to program building. He also let a lot of things get past him.

      1. I concur with Chet….I don’t know if we’ve ever seen teams with a collective basketball IQ so low.
        I’m pretty sure that the use of cue cards was the last straw for most fans…Can we even begin to imagine Archie Miller telling his assistant coaches to hold cue cards?
        And this is why the Sweet 16 was the ceiling. The talent can only carry you so far. And beyond one or two top ballers, our talent wasn’t top echelon….It was often high athleticism with low b-ball IQ…or high b-ball IQ without breadth of talent. Weird combinations that could never form adequate chemistry. Coupled with a coach challenged by the chalkboard, it was no surprise things melted down quickly when needing the whole to play above the pieces.
        The Zeller momentum was the only thing that kept it together. One signing bought Crean five more years.

      2. Duh. We know that already. Tell us something we don’t know like maybe more info on Ruthie?

          1. I shouldn’t leave that hanging.

            While all days are not the same, she’s doing fine. More active than most people half her age. I struggle to keep up.

            As she frequently says…everybody’s got something.

  16. Archie Miller has never coached a losing team. I don’t think this will be his first. His teams always get better during the year. This one will be no different.

  17. He hasn’t coached in the Big Ten…nor at Indiana. No matter conference foe ..or non-conference foe, Hoosiers always have a very big target on the back. This is very similar to the NCAA/Establishment media targeting Indiana for very minor offenses compared to the rest of the corruption in college athletics. At IU, a 3-way call is a trip to the gallows. At Louisville, a 3-way call means the hookers will be there in 10 minutes.
    Not an easy place to put winning seasons together. Unequal standards are anchored in resentment still aimed at Knight. Expectations are high for every coach to have ever been given the opportunity.

    Lastly, Archie is taking on this challenge in the full backdrop of other Indiana/Midwestern programs taking more than advantage of our nine year absence in the local recruiting scene. What we lost in relationships with Indiana h.s. coaches over the last nine years may never be fully reestablished. Ignore your customers and they simply go elsewhere never to return.

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