Hoosiers outplayed in 16th straight loss at Wisconsin

MADISON, Wis. — Outworked and outplayed, the Hoosiers trudged out of the Kohl Center with a familiar feeling on Tuesday night.

The skid continued.

Indiana’s 71-61 loss at Wisconsin stretched the program’s losing streak on the Badgers’ home floor to 16 consecutive games, a regrettable span of two decades that had the potential to be erased with IU’s latest trip to Madison.

The Wisconsin team it faced is clearly not of the same caliber as the recent Badger teams that came before it. But what these Badgers (9-7, 2-1) lack in available skill, they made up for with toughness and energy against the Hoosiers — qualities Indiana sorely lacked.

It’s not the first time this has happened. During last week’s non-conference finale against Youngstown State, IU coach Archie Miller expressed frustration with his squad’s lack of consistent energy and toughness.

Those shortcomings reappeared in Tuesday’s resumption of Big Ten play, dooming an opportunity for Indiana (8-7, 1-2) to secure a road victory.

“It’s just a mindset,” said fifth-year senior Collin Hartman, who scored a season-high 18 points for IU. “It’s gotta come from the top down. It’s gotta come from us leaders and the guys who play all the time and who’ve been here before. It’s the Big Ten. You have to bring it every given night.”

For one half, at least, Indiana seemed poised to challenge for its first win at this arena since 1998 — a game that occurred a week after the building opened. But a slow start to the second half snowballed into yet another one of the many sour Indiana finishes at the Kohl Center.

Miller lamented his team’s lack of will on the boards, where the Hoosiers were outrebounded 20-8 during the second half.

He was also upset with the lack of defensive energy during the first six minutes of the that second period, during which IU allowed 14 Badger points after holding them to a total of 30 in the first half.

“There’s a lack of toughness, there’s a lack of intensity defensively,” Miller said. “If it’s guarding the ball, whether it’s discipline guarding the post, whether it’s rebounding the ball on the first miss, all those things come into play for 40 minutes at a time. The game was really workable there for a long time.”

With the second leg of Big Ten play underway, it’s a critical time for IU’s upperclassmen to deliver.

For one half, at least, they did.

Hartman turned in 13 of his eventual team-high 18 points during the first half. Altogether, the senior trio of Hartman, Robert Johnson and Josh Newkirk combined for 25 first-half points, as the Hoosiers took a 33-30 lead into the locker room.

They did it while navigating the foul trouble of their frontcourt, as De’Ron Davis, Juwan Morgan, Justin Smith and Freddie McSwain each picked up two fouls going against Wisconsin star center Ethan Happ during the first half. Davis was saddled with his second personal two and a half minutes into the contest and headed to the bench for the duration of the period.

“With Juwan and De’Ron out of the game for most of the first half, it really paralyzes us,” Miller said. “But defensively, you have to do a better job.”

Doing so against Happ, who scored a season-high 28 points, proved to be a tall task for an undisciplined Indiana defense.

Getting points on the offensive end was just as difficult for the Hoosiers. Hartman was the only IU player to hit a 3-pointer. He had four, as IU finished 4-for-15 from beyond the arc.

Morgan emerged late, scoring 15 of his 17 points the second half, but most after the Badgers took control.

Even so, this game was still there for the taking. Wisconsin didn’t extend its advantage to more than two possessions until the final seven minutes of the half. By that point, the Badgers had asserted themselves in ways the Hoosiers are still struggling with.

“You just don’t know what you’re gonna get from game to game,” Miller said. “That’s a little bit hard to predict, but there are some older guys here that have some pride and I think those guys are doing a pretty nice job. We’re gonna go as they go. If our upperclassmen continue to really work at it, the rest of the guys will follow suit.”

56 comments

  1. Post-game radio show Archie Miller does not complain about the foul discrepancy. This is one reason why I absolutely love our Coach! Honesty and a realistic assessment of our team’s play will lead to IU being competitive in the future. Great game! The future is bright!

    1. We didn’t lose because of officiating, but it did suck. Was there an offensive possession for Wisconsin when they didn’t get a favorable whistle?

      I simply don’t know what was Happ-ening….with all the one-sided calls.

      Why didn’t we tell McSwain, McRoberts, and Davis to just hack the hell out of Happ?
      Hack-a-Happ would have been far better than simply letting him back down Morgan all night for cheap whistles.

  2. 4 of 15 from 3-point range. By the time a kid reaches the age of IU’s players, it’s hard to convert bad shooters into good shooters. By this age, they either have that skill or they don’t. This group of IU’s players don’t.

    Should we be worried about another example of this team’s continued “lack or urgency/lack of energy” to begin the second half? Is this a response to their new coach’s style of communication? Is Archie’s style of communication such a contrast to Crean’s style that these guys are becoming demotivated during half time? I can understand the lack of skill, but I can’t understand the lack of energy or the lack of a sense of urgency. It’s really painful to watch this team play like this.

  3. This team is pretty painful to watch. I’m not sure I’ve seen a worse big Ten team with 2 senior guards in my life. Can’t shoot. Can’t defend the 3. Doesn’t play with any enthusiasm. I don’t blame Archie one bit. He inherited an absolute disaster of a roster. At least we have hope With Phinisee, Anderson, Hunter, Forester, and Thompson. I can’t wait for this year to be over with so we can start an overhaul.

  4. This team quit last year and it looks like they have QUIT this year too. Poor play by our guards can’t shoot, can’t feed the post and showed no urgency to move the ball just ran out clock and walk off the court with just complete poor effort.

  5. Spot on about the Sr guards….Newkirk & Johnson are net negatives when on the floor. They are both turnovers & bad shots waiting to happen. A 5th yr Sr. & a 4 yr guy who clearly doesn’t care. Green & Durham are learning bad habits from these two clowns.

    THIS, in a era of guards. And experienced guards should simply make better decisions, play harder and rally the team on both ends. It is also the era of ME, ME, ME basketball & I think we have 2 regulars who care about “Indiana” across the chest; McRoberts & Hartman.

    But THIS is nobody’s team. There is no spiritual leader because our experienced players just don’t care. Even McRoberts was a non-factor tonight. At least Hartman showed up.

    Dakich did have 1 good point…..sit those who just don’t give effort or care. Simple concept & frankly it is the right thing to do.

    If I were Archie I’d likely start building for next year: Green, Morgan, McRoberts, Hartman, & Smith would start & then maybe I bring Durham off the bench first followed by McSwain. That’s right! Sit Davis, Johnson & Newkirk!

    I can only assume the same junk is shown in practice and Archie wants to simply Win games vs. prepare for next year.

  6. Awfully boring…and nothing to look forward to in the future thus far. This season is insignificant. See what happens next year. 4 and 5 star recruits ASAP

  7. I would love to be positive for the future, and really hope that Archie is the answer. But someone give me one shred of evidence that we are moving in a positive direction. Please, just one shred.

    1. I thought Archie was a very good hire, but when Holtmann was later hired by OSU, I must admit that the enthusiasm was a bit tempered. I honestly thought Holtmann has passed on IU because he was committed to staying at Butler.

      The OSU hiring of Holtmann sorta brought back memories of how Matta plucked Indiana of top talent(e.g. Conley, Oden, Thomas) when he took the OSU job….(similarly seizing upon turmoil/low points at IU) . Does Ohio benefit more by getting Chris Holtmann(with his ties to Butler and central Indiana high schools/recruits)…or IU by getting Archie Miller(starting from scratch in Indiana)?
      Bottom Line: Was Dayton a more prestige program than Butler? Which coach has more pedigree to influence border recruiting wars? If we don’t get this ship righted quickly, can Archie win the prestige battles for recruits? And sadly, it’s not like we had any momentum in the local recruiting battles with Galileo always looking for his undiscovered/future NBA stars from areas far removed from Indiana and many strong bordering b-ball markets.

      Archie has his work cut out for him…The team is fractured. The recruiting battles play out within the backdrop of many local programs under new leadership. Teams to our north are strong and always in the hunt for Indiana talent…The Big Ten is wicked tough.
      We really can’t alford to remain in stalled program mode for very long. It’s really beginning to look like IU Basketball has become the IU Football of the last 25 years…and that’s a very troubling thing. Time frames are constantly stretched/adjusted…The best local talent turns its head away. Hope is more the constant than quality big stage results. Hype is the order of the day while other programs, in reality, shine much brighter. Time leaps forward and banner fabric becomes more rare than an heirloom unveiled on the Antiques Road Show.

      1. I agree with you. Our brand isn’t very trendy right now and we haven’t even had a Final Four appearance during the entire lives of new recruits. Think about that for one of the so-called “blue bloods” of CBB.

        The banners mean something to us, but not to the 17 & 18 yr olds looking for playing time on the big stage. In fact, it is damn hard to find millennials who want to work hard in any profession. Our brand was built on hard work. That being said, I think Archie will prevail with a culture rebuild. His teams always worked hard in the past & he’ll only recruit kids who want to work & get better. He also never misses an opportunity to exhault the brand we used to have. He gets it & will recruit kids who will too.

  8. Here is the one shred, Chuck81: Last year our Coach would be moaning about the foul call discrepancy and this year our Coach acknowledges that the foul discrepancy is due to the style of play and execution.

    Graduation is our best anticipation this season!

  9. If there are younger guys (i.e., not seniors) on this team who deserve to be benched or demoted for the remainder of the season, then we’ll have to consider those same guys candidates for transfer at the end of the season. I’m not sure Archie can afford to lose two or three younger guys from this team at the end of the year. Yes, we have some studs arriving next season, but we still need most of those players from this roster with remaining eligibility to come back. It’s not like Archie can go out and recruit two or three additional quality guys for the class of 2018! So, if you’re Archie, you only bench/demote younger guys who you can afford to lose to transfer at the end of the season.

  10. I’ll be honest and say I gave Tom Crean far more of the benefit of the doubt than I should have. This was largely due to his digging IU out of about worst basketball hole I ever saw, let alone it being for a perennial power such as IU. This being said, I think the last 4 or 5 years of his tenure served to nearly undo what was accomplished in the early years. The program gives all the appearances of being in worse shape than it was when Crean was brought on board.

    I say this because of the terrible mindset accompanied with a lack of work ethic found in this team, both of which are appalling. When you don’t have talent you make up for it in hustle, which this team, with a few notable exceptions, doesn’t seem to have the desire to do. For the 2018-19 season, I would only accept a very few of the current roster’s return. There is mental poison in this well and you are going to have to drain it to get it out.

    If I read Coach Miller right, I think he is making the best he can out of a very bad situation. I don’t think he will tolerate this beyond one season. He made himself a winner by doing the things this roster either cannot or will not do. He is not asking any player to do anything he has not or would not do himself on the court.

    The way Archie Miller appears to be built would indicate a rather large roster turn over at the end of this season. It cannot be anything but extremely frustrating for a coach who made himself as a player by doing the things necessary to make up for what nature did not give him.
    I applaud his patience with this team in the face of what would be a maddening lack of a will to win from the roster he inherited. I can only image how a certain former Coach would have reacted to this boondoggle.

    Love him or hate him, chairs would have been flying to the top rows of the Hall if RMK actually had to have dealt with a team with this little intensity or basketball acumen. The meltdown would have been epic even by his standards and I can’t say I would have blamed him.

  11. thinkaboutit, while I appreciate your deep frustration with this team, one of your statements above was a gross exaggeration. IU won the Big Ten Championship two seasons ago! The problem Crean had is that he missed his window of opportunity to take IU to the next level and finish building his recruiting pipeline. He failed to get to the final four, the critics started coming out of the woodwork, and then his recruiting began to backslide. Crean’s last two recruiting classes were relatively week, because Crean could not replace the talent he was losing to graduation or to the NBA. These days, College basketball is all about establishing and maintaining a recruiting pipeline. If a school wants to get to the final four, it has to sign at least three 5-star recruits in every class. Given the early departure of so many of these star players, one weak recruiting class will prevent a school from contending for their conference championship and going deep into the tournament. Two weak recruiting classes in a row will get the coach fired and create the situation that IU is in right now. The challenge for Archie is that he’s got to recruit against coaches who have spent years and decades establishing the strongest recruiting pipelines in the country. And that’s going to take time and a little luck. Until some of the elite head coaches retire, it’s going to be a monumental struggle for Archie to sign better talent than Coach K, Calipari, Izzo, Self, his brother, etc. It’s hard to see, but that’s why the years of gross mismanagement before and after Knight’s termination was so devastating to IU Basketball. It took just a few years for the morons running IU and the Athletic Department in those years to destroy an elite program that took decades to build. It’s going to take at least a few years to build it back to where it once was. Crean pulled it out of the gutter, but he was not strong enough to carry it to the top of the hill. All of us hope Archie will be stronger, but only time will tell.

    1. You need to stop…The first BIG Title was primarily due to Zeller. The second Big Title was due to the softest conference schedule in the history of BIG schedules and the last “movement” recruit (due to Zeller), Yogi Ferrell, sticking it out until his senior year.

      The coaching and leadership came primarily from the knowledge and grit found in Zeller, Hulls, and Yogi.

      Crean was a disaster as a coach …and without Zeller he would have been the worst in IU history. He was about developing raw phenoms who usually arrived raw and still lacked basketball IQ upon the day their individual games would finally mature( usually perfectly timed to departing IU with remaining eligibility).

    2. Po,
      I am going to disagree with you on this matter. I do not think it was an exaggeration to the least degree regarding the residual problems from the Crean era. The fatal flaw in the Crean approach was to not make building continuity an absolute priority. Building a program as a pipeline to the next level is short sighted at best. Crean got caught in a trap of his own making.

      By not being able to consistently produce a product which could deliver on the court at the highest levels (final four and beyond), he set up the program for the perfect storm we are now witnessing. Big Ten Championships are nice but at what cost? Mortgaging the future for such short term returns is not the way to build long term success. Now we are reaping the combination of two failed recruiting classes and the mass exodus of prior talent.

      This is why I coming down so hard on the Crean program. The lack of x’s and o’s capability in the on court product apparently went to behind the scenes lack of program cohesiveness we are now seeing. I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt regarding his style of play, knowing it hearkened back to the Branch McCracken era “Hurryin Hoosier,” style of play. Unfortunately he couldn’t successfully pull that off long term either.

  12. I think Coach Miller needs to purge the roster of any players that don’t have the talent, there’s only one scholarship player on the team that was recruited by Coach Miller there would be a core group remaining from the present team, the new recruits and if needed some grad students to complete the roster. Waiting for the other coaches to retire or die off isn’t a way for Coach Miller to become a leading recruiter, he has enough ability to make I U into a competitor again. Bite the bullet at the end of this season and move on to the future of I U Basketball.

  13. There’s very little left for anyone to do about this season. These guys just don’t care. Morgan and Hartman came to play on the stat sheet, but they also had a number of defense lapses and gave up a ton of offensive rebounds.

    They’ve sent divers to the bottom of Lake Monroe in search of the rest of the guys:

    Green at 2 turnovers, 1 assist and 0 points.
    Durham took one shot in 20 min. Had two points. The kid was attacking the rim and being aggressive in the first 8 or so games. What happened to him?
    RJ – had 14 points, but was totally inconsequential. 5-12 isn’t going to cut it either.
    Davis – looked like I could guard him.
    Newkirk – just doesn’t have the skills to play in the B1G. He’s one of the few guys that seems to at least show a little bit of a pulse. Just isn’t good enough.
    McRoberts – walk-ons are gonna walk-on sometimes.

  14. Double Down…you are absolutely correct and it takes some courage to point out that Hartman, while having a nice stat sheet, most certainly did not play “to make his teammates better”. In fact, given that he’s 5th year and supposedly ‘the leader’ the fact that this team is NOT a team and is so listless fall on him. I think guys sincerely don’t like him, and I can see why. It’s an unlikeable team with him as –to me– the most unlikeable player on the team. I don’t see ANY reason to EVER play him and will be very glad when he (finally) leaves along with the rest of the Seniors and all those who transfer. I’m excited about the Future and pumped to watch the Minnesota game upcoming!!! I love Minnesota’s floor and gym!!!!!! Old school…if it were not so far I would have driven up to Wisconsin and also would go to Minnesota to see this game if I could take a train there..I would not want to drive all the way there.

    1. Hartman is not my favorite personality, but I think the kid plays hard…And without his shooting ability, the game would have been a total bonfire. Maybe he had some defensive lapses…I don’t really know if they are worth anymore scrutiny than the weak inside play from the entire team.
      They were all playing like they had lead buttocks. And are those five stars still on the waistbands of our team uniforms? I would take away such a privilege when the effort is such an insult.

      1. It’s funny, those stars drive me nuts. I think the dust on those stars gives our players allergies, slowing them down and making them lethargic.

  15. Rock, on what basis do you make the claim that Hartman’s teammates don’t like him? I’ve seen no evidence of that at all. Why is he “unlikeable”? Unless you can back it up with some solid evidence, those comments are extremely unfair and irresponsible. And who would you give Hartman’s minutes to if you were to bench him? This is not a good team, but it’s not Hartman’s fault. Criticizing these young mens’ performance on the floor is fair game, but let’s be careful not to drift into making personal attacks against teenagers and young men.

    1. I agree. While this team is a mess I think Hartman is as close as we come to being a positive influence. McRoberts is a feel good story but he may well be the least talented guy to see the floor. That makes it hard to be a leader. DD summed up the players’ performance pretty well. Juwan is a solid player with flaws. Collin is a good sixth man with limitations.

      The rest of the bunch will require some high level coaching intervention from Archie. He’s gonna have to earn his paycheck. If the Hoosiers go .500 in the conference he’s coach of the year.

      1. That’s fair. I told some friends earlier if we can somehow have an overall record of .500, I’d consider it a success beings what we have available. I don’t understand however why some people are already throwing in the towel and giving up altogether on the program. One with some brain power would understand this year would be rocky at best. We’re far from a finished product. This year just comes down to establishing basic rules I guess.

        1. Brain power, huh?

          Watching an under talented team bust their rumps and try and compete every night? I’m in. Watching an under talented team look like they’d rather be playing Madden on XBox? Hard not to just hope for the season to end mercifully and move on to next year.

          1. No. What I meant is I don’t understand why some people have given up altogether on AM and saying he isn’t the answer to what we need in Bloomington. It’s no surprise we’re struggling. The seniors might not care about basic fundamentals but hopefully it isn’t falling on deaf ears to the freshman who came in to AM’s system and not have to re-learn another.

            I’m guilty of playing Super Mario Odyssey on my Nintendo Switch when I’ve all but given up on the game.

  16. Not me. If Hartman comes in and hits some 3’s and gets all excited with his team-mates that’s one thing..but he has this attitude like “I’m so great” and he’s obviously NOT great so it’s tough to stomach. Take that play where it was back and forth a one point game and he drives the lane and throws that stupid meaningless behind-the-back circus pass…..that’s not playing team basketball, that’s showboating, and when one guy does it, it’s contagious. I know we scored on that play, but if memory serves me correctly, that was one of the moments of the ‘lapses’. When I looked at the highlights on Big Ten Network it seems like the guy Hartman is guarding is scoring the 3’s. I can’t vouch for any player saying he does not like Hartman, but just look at the demeanor of this team; they obviously are “unhappy” and not with just not winning; they are unhappy being on each other’s team. How can any ‘big man’ be happy with those awful awry passes to the post? and that’s when Rob Johnson is not looking AWAY from the post so he does not risk a turn-over making his usual bad pass. I say bench him and ALL Seniors. Good-bye and let’s look forward to the future. But obviously in practice those guys (the Seniors) are Better Players than these young kids who look like they are just starting to lift weights. Anyway, I might be wrong! All I really care about is that was one great basketball game showcasing Basketball, and now I get to look forward to The Barn and us playing against some hyped-up kids who chose to play where it seldom gets any warmer than it has this past week in Bloomington. A little ENTHUSIASM and joy about playing basketball together will go a long way for this (me) Hoosier fan. ’til then, I say get rid of ’em all until Archie finds a group who enjoys being on the same team. I mean it. I’m sick and tired of watching guys act like they don’t know each other…the other teams have comraderie…why don’t we? Even when we ‘won’ games this year they look like strangers, and I think (and could be wrong) it’s because they can’t stand going into the same locker-room as Hartman and McRoberts. If it’s not that, then what is it? Priller? Very possibly…get rid of that thug too.

  17. It amazes me how many fans can blame Archie. I’m almost positive he thought he was inheriting a better roster than what he has. I’m sure he thought he was upgrading from Dayton. This guy is a winner. He knows basketball better than any of us ever will. He hates loosing worse than any of us. What do you want him to do? He salvaged what he could to limp through his first year to avoid an 08-09 season. We are on the verge of a major overhaul. No way will this man go through this again next year. He is just too competitive. Morgan and Davis are a solid front court. Oladipo didn’t evolve until seller came in to replace Pritchard and force defenses to guard him. Phinisee, Hunter, and Anderson are starters. Pair them with morgan and Davis and you have a solid 5. Keep Durham and smith…possibly Moore. We have Race and Forester to give us front court depth. Go get Langford and two other kids and we are back. Green is a mid major back up at best. You just can’t judge a guy off Creans mess. He’ll go get Jordan Tucker he just transferred out of dook. Have faith in Archie!!!!

  18. And it’s not a ‘race thing’…I think every one of our players would be absolutely thrilled to play on the same team as Ethan Happ.

  19. I don’t blame the Seniors (4th and 5th year)…they had a HORRIBLE Coach for 3-4 years and TERRIBLE team chemistry last year…everyone could not wait to leave and “go pro”…everyone out for themselves (and “with all that talent” they almost missed the NIT and lost 1st round….a HORRIBLE season that was the Final Straw –thankfully- for that poser Crean. No, I don’t “blame” them, but I DO state — and I don’t think I am wrong here — that “something has to change” and the first thing that has to change (and here I am asserting what many better posters on this site have stated) is that there has to be some Pride in playing for I N D I A N A and being on the INDIANA TEAM.

  20. It’s ridiculous to think that Hartman is the problem. I see 2 problems. First the offense in general. Archie early on stated plainly that 75% of the preseason preparation and practices was spent on his m\m pack line D. The poor teammate is Davis. He is the 1 who could make the biggest positive impact for the team. But instead he loafs and plays dumb. No one could make the offense more efficient or make the D more solid. The tone and success of the season is on him more than any other player. So far he doesn’t care to do any heavy lifting. If he doesn’t get involved soon he needs to go to Evansville.

  21. Hmmm, I only asked for a shred of hope, perhaps there is a shred in there somewhere if I dig deep enough. Perhaps.

  22. This team is worse than I thought it would be, and I now believe they will fail to win the number of games (18) I predicted before the season began. But some of the comments being posted lately suggest that people are surprised, really disappointed, and are becoming angry. Really? As if you thought a new coach was going to come in and whip these guys into shape, teach them to play defense, reduce turnovers by half, teach them how to shoot 3-pointers and free throws, and win at least 20 games? How can anyone be surprised by how this season is turning out? Archie’s style is obviously very different from Crean’s style. You don’t convert players drafted for one style of play to another style in six months.

    1. You keep referring to Crean’s teams challenged to hold a possession for more than 10 seconds…challenged to play any form of team defense…challenged to play with any chemistry/grit in March…challenged in having one clue how to break up a zone defense….and challenged to understand the most basic in-bounds play in key/clutch moments of games….as some sort of “style” of play.

      If you have style, you have demand. Who is calling the stylish Tom Crean to coach their D-1 team?

      This isn’t about converting players to adapt to a different style of play. This is about attempting to teach a team game to kids who were left by the last numbskull with zero chalkboard knowledge of the game. He had a classroom of unrefined athletes who believed wearing the candy stripes made them Globetrotters by mere touching of the McCracken hardwood.

  23. Other than the new “thug” in town, Hartman, nobody can shoot the ball with any real consistency!….It’s not that complicated, folks. And other than a handful of sharpshooters primarily from Indiana that Crean was fortunate enough to lure to Bloomington during his nine seasons(Roth, Hulls, Blackmon….and the off/on of Yogi), it’s never been about shooting skills at the other positions.
    It’s also was rarely about clutch experience and b-ball IQ. Most of the Indiana kids never even came out of 4A.

    After four years in the NBA, Oladipo has finally been able to find some moments of consistency to pair with athleticism. It was Crean’s formula. Athleticism, wing spans, and frame were priority number one. Ideology to match his own doctrines of beliefs was also near the top.
    Basketball IQ and refined skills that could help a team quickly upon arrival were things that were at the caboose of the train to greatness. And “greatness” was constantly diverted to a salient position of standing in awe of raw athleticism rather than in awe of overall chemistry, marksmanship, respect for defense, post entry, and the protection of a possession.

    Sure, we are absent the talent of Bryant, OG, and Blackmon. But we are more absent the things that were always absent over the last nine seasons. We are absent refinement….We are absent savvy. We are absent focus. We are absent endless hours of early youth stroking a ball to perfection. Even for all the hoopla and his many better-than-average skills, Zeller was never a refined post player with an array of inside moves/shots in his repertoire.

    Prtichard shot the ball better than most of these guys….Danny Moore played with more heart. Hulls and Roth could be blindfolded and hit more triples our guards on their best nights. It’s always been raw rosters with a sprinkling of transfers and Indiana grit/shooters to put the makeup on the pig.

    Difference Makers: Roth, Remy, Beilfeldt, Hulls, Yogi, Hartman. Clutch, gumption, leaders by example, pride in fundamentals, motors. Crean’s teams primarily built to be NBA mini camps for the raw/unrefined(never the early skills to ever consider being a one-and-done) lived and died by the presence or absence of the difference makers. Where are they now? Where is Crean without Austin Etherington…for that matter? Austin was the primary fuel for the “Movement” ….that brought Zeller and the farfetched belief that motives of the heart rested first and foremost in getting the candy stripes back to the biggest stages.

  24. Po,

    I don’t think the comments are quite as emotional as you would suggest, but rather a realization of fears that the program was devolving faster than thought. I think there is a great deal of relief regarding the direction Archie Miller wants to take the program over the long haul. The relief however is being tempered by the reality of this season being a probable lost cause. Additionally, there is a recognition that the rebuild may take more than a year or two to accomplish.

    On a more positive note, I suspect the speed of the recovery will depend largely on the impact the incoming recruiting class is able to achieve next year. I am suspecting they may surprise a lot of people with or without Langford. Big thing to remember these will be Archie’s recruits, not Tom Crean’s. This time Coach Miller has recruited to fit his philosophy as opposed to salvaging his predecessor’s recruiting class.

    No doubt there will be growing pains, but ever the optimist, it could be a lot of fun. We shall see.

  25. Expectations for this team were too high from the fan base. We have the remains of a team that was humiliated in the first round of the NIT last year and ontop of that..not 1…not 2…but 3 of the best players on that NIT first round loosing team departed to pursue pro careers. We lost 3 of the best players we had from a bad team and replaced them with an absolute mediocre recruiting class. Not sure why anybody would think this team would make the NCAA if last years team couldn’t. It’s just an unreasonable unrealistic thought to do better with a worse team. Had he kept 1 of the 3 that went pro I think we would be in much better shape, but it’s understandable why the kids pursued their pro careers. Archie kept what he could of the team and recruits intact that is the most he could do when he took the job. Basically limp through this season and buy some time to get recruits.

  26. Let’s not allow Podunker to put a negative spin on any of this….

    thinkaboutit used the appropriate noun to describe the day: Relief.

    For all the disappointment of a season that is currently looking like a train wreck, there is indescribable “relief.” When the lights are turned off in Assembly, the banners hang again with substance and genuineness in their cloth again. Relief, indeed. I honestly don’t care if Archie isn’t [is] the panacea for all the basketball dysfunction that had melted into the lore of McCracken maple like dryrot [dry rot].

    The dry rot is gone….and I am internally happy amongst all the havoc in building us back strong again from starting points humble and legit.

    It is a weight lifted. As a lifelong Hoosier basketball fan(and a lover of all the fine talent that emanates from this tiny and inconsequential place known as Indiana), I have never been more relieved.

  27. Who is blaming Archie? I must be skimming right past those comments.

    Never been more happy to have someone at the head of Indiana basketball. My lack of enjoyment this season has zero to do with him.

    On that note, the more I put this roster, and rosters past, into context, I can see how Yogi Ferrell covered up a lot of roster blemishes. I have to admit, I didn’t quite appreciate him enough when he was here. Since he left, massive leadership vacuum.

      1. I don’t consider Peegs..or Inside the Halitosis legit sites. I think most of the traffic is driven by fake/multiple screen name memberships. Nothing regulates this stuff. There is no damn way they get the numbers they claim….They are basically glorified Facebook pages of the goobers that run them. They are not affiliated with any newspaper or legit publication. They can ramrod an agenda down their readers throats based on the likes/opinions of those who spend to advertise..or blow money on memberships.

        See those imposters for what they are, Ben. Whatever direction the winds are blowing, they follow…Drive the numbers…Drive the numbers. That’s what log in procedures, heavy-handed moderation, and banning someone over shockingly independent ideas is all about…Drive an ideology. Free speech be damned….especially when the ideas go against those holding the cards.

  28. Great comments above by both Ben M and DD.

    Thinkaboutit, I caught some grief last fall when I commented that IU would win a maximum of 18 games this season and that it would take Archie “three or four” seasons to get IU back to where we all want it to be. At the time, I posed the question, would Hoosier fans give Archie enough time to rebuild, or are our expectations unreasonable? Obviously, I overestimated the talent on this roster and now realize this team will struggle to produce 14 wins. As for how long it will take Archie to return IU to elite status, four seasons was probably too long. Based on the quality of his first recruiting class, I’ll amend that estimate to three seasons, with this season included. It just takes more time to reestablish the recruiting pipeline and build a program’s culture than most fans want to acknowledge. As talented as next year’s recruiting class will be, with or without Romeo Langford, a group of freshman are not going to lead IU to win the Big Ten Championship and/or make it to the final four. This group is not going to be the second coming of the “Fab Five” that transformed Michigan a generation ago. We have to be patient and give this promising new coach time to recruit his type of talent and build his program. But I think we all agree that next year’s team will be better than this year’s team.

    1. You’re excused for your low expectations during the fall….You were still grieving. But it had nothing to do with roster assessment.

      The season is far from over….Predictions of total wins/losses are pointless shots in the dark. They, nor long predictions, serve no positive purpose. One game at a time….This ain’t Ouija.

      Maybe they go sub .500 for the season and we still win the Big Tournament? Who knows…? That’s certainly not a prediction, but we’re due in the pointless season finale conference tournament…and stranger things have happened. I’ll still bet on a talent-depleted Archie Miller team in ‘win or go home’ games far before a talent-rich team with Mr. Pointless Substitutions/Mojo Killer at the helm.

  29. Po,

    I think I can agree with your sentiments at this point. I hope I am right but I do think the quality of the incoming recruiting class for next year (including Race) may prove to be far better than advertised with or without Romeo Langford. No, I would not consider it a fab five, but I do think the class has the potential to exceed all expectations. If so, I don’t think anyone in Hoosier Nation would have a problem with this being the case.

    Just thinking aloud about the much ballyhooed Mr. Langford. Might be considered basketball heresy, but I am wondering would his addition be a net positive or negative long term. If he is the real deal, he is a one and done. Would his presence help or hinder the development of what I hope are 5 very good other recruits and the basis for an IU return to prominence in a couple years? Hopefully a Langford signing would be the best of all worlds, but sometimes things are not always as they seem.

    Just wondering . . . . .

  30. Regardless of the comments by the mouthy 1 on here the site ITH is legit, real and honest. They rightfully do spank ‘idiocy’.

    1. Legit? Yes, it exists…much like a Facebook page or a fart lingering too long.
      Real? Yes, as defined by legit above.
      Honest? Not one bit. They are strongly rooted in agenda. They are jello…which, in many ways, is worse than dishonest.
      Spanking? Wouldn’t be surprised if Bizitch is into such things.

      The only idiocy spanked out of Bloomington was the last coach who nearly all zombies at Inside the Halitosis (including their Facebook page leader) ritually idolized the buffoon. I only pop over there for a few chuckles (mainly to read some of the drifters from Scoop who occasionally do drive-by’s to threaten someone at ITH (e.g. “Bye-bye, Brad”) or to improve self-esteem by discussing hoops with the very basketball-challenged.

      Scoop is where it’s at. Basketblog used to rule the other hemisphere until IDS caved to the sorts of conformity that only money and “inside” political power/influence can cause a ruin. Those conformists spun off to form all the soft Hoosier sites/forums that plant rose beds to cover the sewage of agenda.

  31. I really enjoy this site for all its comments. It is fun and a way to enjoy IU Basketball. Thanks everyone.

  32. Peegs…..? CNN. Anderson Cooper. Pretend to be hard-hitting, but always plays it safe. FAKE NEWS!
    ITH…? Fox News. O’Reilly Factor’…Lot’s of makeup on the ladies. Charts = Smarts.
    IDS….? PBS. It’s always “feel good” and interns at PBS’s Sesame Street.
    Scoop(before HSR)…? BBC World…. ‘Hard Talk’ with Stephen Sackur.
    Scoop(since change to HSR)…? ‘The View’ during the Rosie O’Donnell years.

    Any other questions?

  33. Lastly, somebody please point out the heavy criticisms of Archie Miller on this thread? Unless Podunker has the ability to read posts that never pass “awaiting moderation”(hint ..hint), then what in the hell is he talking about?

    I was discussing recruiting wars and in-state bonds/influences upon h.s./AAU programs as it pertains to Holtmann(moving from Butler/Indianapolis to OSU) vs. Archie(moving from Dayton/OH to IU)….but you’d have to be quite deceitful to spin that as a personal criticism of Archie.

    When Archie was hired by Glass….Holtmann appeared securely anchored at Butler….And it would be my guess that most Hoosier fans believed Holtmann to be staying with the Bulldogs.

    Is that a criticism of Archie? Hell no.

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